Lets hear your thoughts on outfitters

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OutdoorAddict10

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Just got curious what everyone's thoughts are on all the guides here in Utah.... I think they're getting/have been pretty annoying. The unit I hunt for general deer is a LE elk unit and the only outfitter originally was good ole Mossback now there is at least 3-5 other outfitters with multiple clients each that will kill big bulls. I've witnessed guides on the pauns shooting deer on private land and didn't get charged with anything then they post the buck on Instagram bragging about their "hunt of a lifetime." Seems like (especially on the LE units) it just over crowds the area with guides, spotters, and trail cams on every water hole and just turns the hunt for the DIY guys a **** show. I get that not every guide is a poacher like I witnessed and probably most are doing it as their job but it's getting out of hand seeing guide after guide on every ridge. Sick of all these people just showing up and pulling the trigger instead of hunting for themselves. Most outfitters are after the biggest and best animals and if they aren't they've gotta send their clients home with something so that's definitely gotta affect the population right? Especially consistently killing the top dogs of the units. I just think of all these amazing animals year after year that would have lived a lot longer if it wasn't for guides or at the least could have been harvested by a guy more deserving.
Anyway just a little rant...thoughts? Ideas? Solutions?
 
Ban guiding on public land. Period.

If no ban, my next preferred option would be to restrict how many outfitters can guide statewide to 5 per species. You can run a lottery to see which outfitters pull that species and they have extraordinary fees to obtain that license to guide. I’m talking hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it. Let Jimmy John and Denny pay all they want for the opportunity to show up and pull the trigger. Use this to fund more law enforcement officers to patrol looking for illegal actions by outfitters. Heaven knows we need more enforcement on some of these knuckleheads.
 
Vanilla said:
Ban guiding on public land. Period.

If no ban, my next preferred option would be to restrict how many outfitters can guide statewide to 5 per species. You can run a lottery to see which outfitters pull that species and they have extraordinary fees to obtain that license to guide. I’m talking hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it. Let Jimmy John and Denny pay all they want for the opportunity to show up and pull the trigger. Use this to fund more law enforcement officers to patrol looking for illegal actions by outfitters. Heaven knows we need more enforcement on some of these knuckleheads.
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I've thought about the whole lottery thing as well. If only the wildlife board could get behind something like that...but maybe they could if they got a slice of the $$$
 
I agree with Vanilla. No outfitting on public lands has been my sentiment for a while. I believe it creates unnecessary competition on hunts that Average Joe's wait decades to draw, as well as creating two tiers of hunters on those units.

I could get behind the idea of a lottery too, maybe.

Also, I am empathetic to NRs, but LE hunts already lend themselves to showing up and having a chance at good animals... even more so if there aren't outfitters clogging up the unit.
 
I’ve definitely been a “no guiding on public lands” guy for a long time. It seems odd that a private business can use public lands and public animals to profit.

Guided hunts, shed hunting, unit wide landowner tags, governors tags, etc. All this now revolves around profit and money. Everything I learned and experienced growing up in the outdoors was the opposite mindset of money and profit. It represented peacefulness, freedom, and being one with nature. Get the guides off our public lands!! Get landowner tags off public lands!!
 
I am fully supportive of no guiding on public lands. The lottery approach would be a good compromise.

The current culture in Utah with guides and outfitters and the "kill at any cost" mentality has to be addressed at some point. It has gotten out of hand and the number of confrontations between regular joes and guides on LE units is growing and will only result in really bad outcomes in the future.

One of the big reasons cited for banning trail cameras was because there were too many cameras and confrontations on the more popular spots within LE units. If this concern needed to be addressed with trail cameras, why shouldn't it be addressed with guides/outfitters as well?
 
I’d want every one of them off the landscape. It’s become to commercialized and the “for profit model” has significant impacts to the rest of the hunting public.

I guess I could see 1 on 1 guiding working or the lottery for a handful of special use permits.
Also, it would likely be pretty easy to get on a ballot. Just frame pictures of trophy animals and 20 guys standing around and gain support from special interest groups.
 
It’s honestly time to ban public land hunting. It’s turned into a **** show with people riding SxS off road, people getting shot, toilet paper all over, the list goes on. Hunters are pigs and the wildlife belongs to all.

It’s time to end it. You want to hunt, private land only!
 
SS! said:
It’s honestly time to ban public land hunting. It’s turned into a **** show with people riding SxS off road, people getting shot, toilet paper all over, the list goes on. Hunters are pigs and the wildlife belongs to all.

It’s time to end it. You want to hunt, private land only!
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You definitely come by it natural.
 
Honestly, I’m not even that strong on banning guides on public land. I’m just kind of fed up with the bad actors. I wish they’d take action against those bad actors and then they wouldn’t have to ban it for everyone.

Policy makers have tried to create situations where enforcement can work. Trail cams, bait, and the prohibition on multiple guides for each hunter, to name some recent actions.

We’re still seeing outfitters violate every one of these rules. Not all outfitters are doing it, but some are. I wish they’d go throw the book at those doing it and send a message to everyone else.

I’m generally much more of a fan of using a scalpel and not a sledge hammer to address issues, but sometimes even the sledge hammer isn’t sufficient.
 
Vanilla said:
Honestly, I’m not even that strong on banning guides on public land. I’m just kind of fed up with the bad actors. I wish they’d take action against those bad actors and then they wouldn’t have to ban it for everyone.

Policy makers have tried to create situations where enforcement can work. Trail cams, bait, and the prohibition on multiple guides for each hunter, to name some recent actions.

We’re still seeing outfitters violate every one of these rules. Not all outfitters are doing it, but some are. I wish they’d go throw the book at those doing it and send a message to everyone else.

I’m generally much more of a fan of using a scalpel and not a sledge hammer to address issues, but sometimes even the sledge hammer isn’t sufficient.
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Well said
 
elkantlers said:
I've had 3 LE permits in my life and 2 of those I had conflicts with outfitters that didn't think I should be on my public lands.

It seems that there is growing support for total rebuild of the guiding rules.

So how do we get this rolling?
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You wouldn’t have that problem on private land. Great example thanks for sharing!
 
elkantlers said:
So how do we get this rolling?
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Easy. Go to your local hardware store and buy the thickest wooden handle shovel you can find. Cut off the first 12”. Sand off the sharp edges first with 80 grit working your way up to 220 grit. Then shove that up your turd cutter over and over again till it doesn’t hurt anymore. Once you can do that you’re ready to take on the outfitting industry.
 
I have hunted most western states and the only place I have had issues is on diamond mtn. Multiple OIL hunts and prime units....never had issues.
Last week on Diamond I witnessed 3 truck loads of spotters trying to find a bull for a client. They did not like it when I pointed out the law to them.
Multiple public lands posted, it was interesting to hear a local/landowner complain about how the DWR is going to destroy the herd. When it was them that got the ball rolling. Private cow tags, Spike hunts, 2 late bull hunts will have a big impact on the unit
 
Lots of jealous folks around here. if you were as good as the outfitters you wouldn't consider them unfair competition.

It's not your public land, it's everyone's land. hence the term " public". and that means the guide and the client's names appear on the deed next to yours.

Carry on its amusing.
 
I'm not hunting the first 10 days of my Desert Ram tag as I just don't want the zhit show that no doubt will be taking place.


5 other tag holders and no doubt 3 of them will be quided....


I'm Solo Recurve bow hunting and don't want some asswipe shooting his rifle over my head and screwing up my stalk.



Robb
 
SS! said:
What about all the slob resident hunters? Let’s ban them too off public land. And any dipshit with a vortex riflescope. Where does it end?
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Not sure your comment has any relevance to this conversation. No one is saying ban certain people from public land. Just ban certain activities, like guided hunts. Even in Alaska there are currently regulations on what you can do on public lands. You can’t decide to grow crops out on public lands. You can’t decide to mine on public lands. You can’t run motocross races out there for profit. Etc. etc. etc.
 
I doubt banning it on public could happen, don't forget who the lobbyist is for special interest hunting.

Miners, drillers, lumberjacks all have to buy/lease areas, it's not a free for all, so I'm on board with that type model.

As for guides outfitters specifically, and this might surprise you, I'm not anti guide.

It depends on the guide. In my industry if your trying to compete with the shitty builders, then to do so you lower your quality, cut corners, go cheap, etc, as the guys you compete with do the same. So, if your competing with the likes of WLH, you are going to have to do what they do.

On the other hand, if your not into the IG, expo show off, kill at all costs buisness model, then you are most likely a stand up buisness.

But for every dude how has bitched about the DWR or tech committee the last few years, ALL of the new rules/ bans came about due to the corporate worlds none stop quest to kill at all costs. Even the WB recognized we have an issue in the state.
 
Togwotee said:
Lots of jealous folks around here. if you were as good as the outfitters you wouldn't consider them unfair competition.

It's not your public land, it's everyone's land. hence the term " public". and that means the guide and the client's names appear on the deed next to yours.

Carry on its amusing.
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There it is. I was waiting for this post!!! The whole "you're jealous if you disagree." Not jealous....It's the idea that showing up to pull the trigger and displaying them all over social media for a profit isn't our definition of "hunting." And I'm sure a lot of these people on this forum have harvested some pretty awesome animals that we will never see just because they don't need social media attention or want to post to make a buck. I can find my own animals without having to be spoon fed information. Nice try though.
 
I guarantee I put mud on a wall better than avg Joe, Bess plumbs better, Tri taxidermist better.

Not cuz we special, just cuz it's our job and we do it a ton more.

That's kinda the point ain't it?
 
Slow day shooting ducks


So I just had a killer idea.

We all know how much $fw cares about raising money for "conservation"

Let's take each unit, create a guide quota, and auction off the rights to guide it at the expo each year.

Imagine the "conservation" money raised bidding on guide lease on oak creeks, San Juan, or AI.

Shouldn't be a hard sell, Iwe all know how much the WLH and Mossbacks care about conservation.
 
OutdoorAddict10 said:
There it is. I was waiting for this post!!! The whole "you're jealous if you disagree." Not jealous....It's the idea that showing up to pull the trigger and displaying them all over social media for a profit isn't our definition of "hunting." And I'm sure a lot of these people on this forum have harvested some pretty awesome animals that we will never see just because they don't need social media attention or want to post to make a buck. I can find my own animals without having to be spoon fed information. Nice try though.
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So you don’t like how someone chooses to hunt their tag. Maybe they don’t like how you road hunt?
 
hossblur said:
Slow day shooting ducks


So I just had a killer idea.

We all know how much $fw cares about raising money for "conservation"

Let's take each unit, create a guide quota, and auction off the rights to guide it at the expo each year.

Imagine the "conservation" money raised bidding on guide lease on oak creeks, San Juan, or AI.

Shouldn't be a hard sell, Iwe all know how much the WLH and Mossbacks care about conservation.
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On certain lands AK limits the amount of guides. It’s called the guide concession program. The scoring system to get the concession is based on a lot of things but you basically provide them a business plan of how you will manage the hunting on there. Example would be "I'll take 8 sheep, 10 moose, 3 bear". it gets reviewed against other applications etc. When renewal comes up such factors as if theres complaints against you etc could be just cause to pull your concession.

As an outfitter having a concession adds value to your business when you go to sell it. The concessions are capped and difficult to obtain.
 
Vanilla said:
Sounds like my compromise plan.

Let’s make it happen SS!
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Well I just noticed this in the Utah forum so maybe it’s geared towards Utah only. I’ll leave your guys management to you. I apologize I thought this was in the general hunting forum.

There’s going to be a push here in AK for the guide concession program on ALL land. I hope it happens. It will put the POS outfitters out of business.
 
What's the difference between someone guiding a hunt for an animal on public land, or someone running cows or sheep on the same public land? They are both using the land to make money, same with drilling for gas/oil. Oth can have a negative effect on someone's public land hunt, so why only focus on the outfitter?
 
257Tony said:
What's the difference between someone guiding a hunt for an animal on public land, or someone running cows or sheep on the same public land? They are both using the land to make money, same with drilling for gas/oil. Oth can have a negative effect on someone's public land hunt, so why only focus on the outfitter?
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Because each of those other has to lease a unit, site, area. You can't just roll up anywhere you want and drill, mine, log, graze. That's how they keep control of who and how many
 
Yes, you are jealous. if you weren't you wouldn't be butt hurt over someone getting a better animal than you do. you live here so you're entitled right? question is are you jealous of the guide who gets paid to succeed where you fail? or the client who has the money to hire him? or both.

Saying the bad behavior is the reason to put them out of business is a joke. unless you can prove outfitters and their clients are worse than average Joe local that's just more proof you're jealous. it's just like saying all rich people are thieves and crooks that's why they have more money than you , exactly the same.
 
Togwotee said:
Yes, you are jealous. if you weren't you wouldn't be butt hurt over someone getting a better animal than you do. you live here so you're entitled right? question is are you jealous of the guide who gets paid to succeed where you fail? or the client who has the money to hire him? or both.

Saying the bad behavior is the reason to put them out of business is a joke. unless you can prove outfitters and their clients are worse than average Joe local that's just more proof you're jealous. it's just like saying all rich people are thieves and crooks that's why they have more money than you , exactly the same.
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Lol.
 
Togwotee said:
Yes, you are jealous. if you weren't you wouldn't be butt hurt over someone getting a better animal than you do. you live here so you're entitled right? question is are you jealous of the guide who gets paid to succeed where you fail? or the client who has the money to hire him? or both.

Saying the bad behavior is the reason to put them out of business is a joke. unless you can prove outfitters and their clients are worse than average Joe local that's just more proof you're jealous. it's just like saying all rich people are thieves and crooks that's why they have more money than you , exactly the same.
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So who do you work for?
 
Togwotee said:
Yes, you are jealous. if you weren't you wouldn't be butt hurt over someone getting a better animal than you do. you live here so you're entitled right? question is are you jealous of the guide who gets paid to succeed where you fail? or the client who has the money to hire him? or both.

Saying the bad behavior is the reason to put them out of business is a joke. unless you can prove outfitters and their clients are worse than average Joe local that's just more proof you're jealous. it's just like saying all rich people are thieves and crooks that's why they have more money than you , exactly the same.
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Says the guy that dripped crocodile tears on his phone about how tough his CO deer hunt and Utah elk hunt were recently.....some guys need their hand held and skirt held up while they pee to get it done. You can still have a guide Tog don't worry.
 
OutdoorAddict10 said:
if it wasn't for guides or at the least could have been harvested by a guy more deserving.
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I mostly hunt DIY but over my lifetime I have on occasion enlisted the assistance of an outfitter with guides.
Apparently on those hunts the OP is suggesting that someone else was more deserving of harvesting those animals than I was.

I love DIY hunting, and feel a great sense of satisfaction when doing so, but I have never felt more deserving than any other tag holder on any hunt.
None of us like competition when hunting, but the hard facts are there is more demand for hunting and less opportunities. So if anyone feels more deserving, because they choose DIY, I call that jealous sour grapes.
 
Togwotee said:
Yes, you are jealous. if you weren't you wouldn't be butt hurt over someone getting a better animal than you do. you live here so you're entitled right? question is are you jealous of the guide who gets paid to succeed where you fail? or the client who has the money to hire him? or both.

Saying the bad behavior is the reason to put them out of business is a joke. unless you can prove outfitters and their clients are worse than average Joe local that's just more proof you're jealous. it's just like saying all rich people are thieves and crooks that's why they have more money than you , exactly the same.
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Professionals get held to higher standards
 
Togwotee said:
Yes, you are jealous. if you weren't you wouldn't be butt hurt over someone getting a better animal than you do. you live here so you're entitled right? question is are you jealous of the guide who gets paid to succeed where you fail? or the client who has the money to hire him? or both.

Saying the bad behavior is the reason to put them out of business is a joke. unless you can prove outfitters and their clients are worse than average Joe local that's just more proof you're jealous. it's just like saying all rich people are thieves and crooks that's why they have more money than you , exactly the same.
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Sure I guess you could say I'm a little jealous of the guides. I'd love to find and hunt big animals all year. I'm not jealous of clients who have more money than me who pay to pull the trigger without putting in the work. The thief of happiness is comparison as some might say. So I really could care less if others have more than me. Becasue you know what? Know matter how strong you get or how much money you have theres always gonna be someone stronger and richer. IMO hunting is supposed to be a special if not I dare say sacred experience. They're living breathing creatures and using them as cash flow and parading their dead bodies around on social media is distasteful and makes us "conservationists" look bad. And I guess it's not just guides. Anyone trying to make money off killing animals just doesn't sit right with me. To each their own though...I was just seeing what other people think.
 
OutdoorAddict10 said:
Sure I guess you could say I'm a little jealous of the guides. I'd love to find and hunt big animals all year. I'm not jealous of clients who have more money than me who pay to pull the trigger without putting in the work. The thief of happiness is comparison as some might say. So I really could care less if others have more than me. Becasue you know what? Know matter how strong you get or how much money you have theres always gonna be someone stronger and richer. IMO hunting is supposed to be a special if not I dare say sacred experience. They're living breathing creatures and using them as cash flow and parading their dead bodies around on social media is distasteful and makes us "conservationists" look bad. And I guess it's not just guides. Anyone trying to make money off killing animals just doesn't sit right with me. To each their own though...I was just seeing what other people think.
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I can’t think of a single client we had this fall that didn’t put in the work. I think you’re lying to yourself unintentionally regarding hunters that have lots of money. You’re jealous and that’s ok. You can’t say to each their own and sit there on your high horse. You’ve compared your success to others but then say you don’t care about it? Keep chasing that sacred experience because right now you still are not comfortable with who you are or where you’re at in life.
 
I just hope we never cave like WY has to the outfitters association. Or even AK. I can go up there and hunt a black bear on the same ridge that a grizzly is on, but can't hunt the grizz without a guide. Or in WY I can go for a "walk" in the "wilderness" but can't hunt the same area without somebody holding my hand. It's outfitter welfare and I hope Utah never gets to that point.
 
SS! said:
I can’t think of a single client we had this fall that didn’t put in the work. I think you’re lying to yourself unintentionally regarding hunters that have lots of money. You’re jealous and that’s ok. You can’t say to each their own and sit there on your high horse. You’ve compared your success to others but then say you don’t care about it? Keep chasing that sacred experience because right now you still are not comfortable with who you are or where you’re at in life.
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Looks like I struck a nerve
 
SS! said:
I can’t think of a single client we had this fall that didn’t put in the work. I think you’re lying to yourself unintentionally regarding hunters that have lots of money. You’re jealous and that’s ok. You can’t say to each their own and sit there on your high horse. You’ve compared your success to others but then say you don’t care about it? Keep chasing that sacred experience because right now you still are not comfortable with who you are or where you’re at in life.
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If part of your livelihood comes from being a guide of course you would sing that tune which is fine. Reality is it isn't going anywhere.

I would say a lot of the issue boils down to the ego/pressure of the guide. Nobody wants to pay big money to a guide that kills small stuff. That's why they more times than not find themselves doing things they know they shouldn't, but feel the pressure either socially or financially to kill the BIGGEST. I think you have it backwards. Guys that go out and do it on their own are comfortable with themselves and where they are at in life. Guys that aren't confident to go hunt hard and either kill or don't kill end up hiring a guide because they aren't confident in their own ability/situation etc.. Neither one is wrong, but I don't buy its a "jealousy" factor like it's being thrown around here.
 
SS! said:
I can’t think of a single client we had this fall that didn’t put in the work. I think you’re lying to yourself unintentionally regarding hunters that have lots of money. You’re jealous and that’s ok. You can’t say to each their own and sit there on your high horse. You’ve compared your success to others but then say you don’t care about it? Keep chasing that sacred experience because right now you still are not comfortable with who you are or where you’re at in life.
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U have clients that set camo, cook, tear down camps, scout, wrangle animals, maintain vehicles and planes?
 
hossblur said:
U have clients that set camo, cook, tear down camps, scout, wrangle animals, maintain vehicles and planes?
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Yep. To be fair we contract the flying. But they help load the plane. They help setup camp, pack it to spike etc. and yes many like to try to cook. We don’t really have any vehicle maint tho. You don’t come to alaska to road hunt. Well….most.
 
Bigwiffy said:
If part of your livelihood comes from being a guide of course you would sing that tune which is fine. Reality is it isn't going anywhere.

I would say a lot of the issue boils down to the ego/pressure of the guide. Nobody wants to pay big money to a guide that kills small stuff. That's why they more times than not find themselves doing things they know they shouldn't, but feel the pressure either socially or financially to kill the BIGGEST. I think you have it backwards. Guys that go out and do it on their own are comfortable with themselves and where they are at in life. Guys that aren't confident to go hunt hard and either kill or don't kill end up hiring a guide because they aren't confident in their own ability/situation etc.. Neither one is wrong, but I don't buy its a "jealousy" factor like it's being thrown around here.
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I would agree with your thoughts above. I don’t know if you’ve been a part of the gov tag hunts, I have not. Until you experience it how does one really know? And how many guys actually run across the gov tag guides in the field? Very few. They are hunting hard to draw areas so likely less hunting pressure. The videos don’t help their situation out, wouldn’t take much editing to make it more tasteful like fstop mentioned he’s going to do to the video. A poorly edited video could make the hunt seem worse than it was too. No doubt about that. Just like a video can’t really portray how steep the country is etc.

To group outfitting as whole in with the govt tag situations isn’t fair. Just like grouping the 90% of DIY hunters that can’t even hit a paper plate at 200 yards with the guys that can.

Youre comfortable with who you are. No doubt. But I can tell you the person I quoted is not. It gets really easy to read people as one does this longer. We get a lot of bow shooters but few bow hunters. Same concept.

Hunters hire guys for all kinds of reasons. Hell some of the guys we take are hardcore DIY guys but AK has some BS laws that require a guide. You can’t stereotype the clients due to the fact they are going guided.

It’s obviously a jealously issue with so many, nothing is wrong with that. Jealously is normal. We all experience it.
 
SS! said:
Yep. To be fair we contract the flying. But they help load the plane. They help setup camp, pack it to spike etc. and yes many like to try to cook. We don’t really have any vehicle maint tho. You don’t come to alaska to road hunt. Well….most.
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Why are they paying you then?
 
I’m jealous of my grand father who got to hunt in the woods without guides and large groups of spotters for one tag. I’m jealous that they didn’t have to worry about disrespectful folks out there doing whatever it takes to get an animal killed. I’m jealous of my grand father’s time when there was nearly no monetary value on animals. Let me ask you SS, why do you guide folks up there? What’s your main reason for outfitting in general? I am truly curious.
 
lif said:
Not sure your comment has any relevance to this conversation. No one is saying ban certain people from public land. Just ban certain activities, like guided hunts. Even in Alaska there are currently regulations on what you can do on public lands. You can’t decide to grow crops out on public lands. You can’t decide to mine on public lands. You can’t run motocross races out there for profit. Etc. etc. etc.
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It isn't relevant to anything other than spouting off nonsense that people shouldn't waste their time with responding to.

Piss and vinegar is all, piss and vinegar...
 
SS! said:
I would agree with your thoughts above. I don’t know if you’ve been a part of the gov tag hunts, I have not. Until you experience it how does one really know? And how many guys actually run across the gov tag guides in the field? Very few. They are hunting hard to draw areas so likely less hunting pressure. The videos don’t help their situation out, wouldn’t take much editing to make it more tasteful like fstop mentioned he’s going to do to the video. A poorly edited video could make the hunt seem worse than it was too. No doubt about that. Just like a video can’t really portray how steep the country is etc.

To group outfitting as whole in with the govt tag situations isn’t fair. Just like grouping the 90% of DIY hunters that can’t even hit a paper plate at 200 yards with the guys that can

Youre comfortable with who you are. No doubt. But I can tell you the person I quoted is not. It gets really easy to read people as one does this longer. We get a lot of bow shooters but few bow hunters. Same concept.

Hunters hire guys for all kinds of reasons. Hell some of the guys we take are hardcore DIY guys but AK has some BS laws that require a guide. You can’t stereotype the clients due to the fact they are going guided.

It’s obviously a jealously issue with so many, nothing is wrong with that. Jealously is normal. We all experience it.
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You better check your spectacles then if I'm that east to read from 2 messages lol or better yet you should become a soothsayer since you're so good at reading people....online! ?
 
Way too many auction tags out there in Utah going to the extra rich. I believe that is the primary reason we have so many outfitters in Utah and why we have so much questionable activities that take place. The big, big money being offered up comes from the extra rich, who buy up all these auction tags. That big money draws a lot of people into the outfitting/guiding world. Competition for those dollars drives guides and outfitters to put in more time and effort to find big stuff, but along with that comes a few who go a bit too far to get their hands on those dollars.
If normal people who draw tags are the ones paying for guides and outfitters, I don’t think we’d see what we do. There would be a limit on the time guides can invest in scouting, monitoring and hunting down animals, because most average people have a financial limit. The super rich do not. They can pay whatever it takes for a tag and they can pay whatever it takes for a group of guides to find the biggest animals in the state. Without limitations, we have what we have.

I have no issue with “a few” auction tags, but what we have in Utah is ridiculous. Way too many in my opinion, but the G&F is as hooked on those dollars as the conservation groups that survive because of those tags. Those who benefit from the tags are the most powerful people in the mix, so it’s a huge uphill battle to reign them in. That’s my 2 cents.

The vast majority of outfitters are good, law abiding folks who love to be in the mountains, and want to help those who just don’t have the time or knowledge to make the most of their tags. It’s only a small few who take it too far and give all a bad name. I believe outfitters and guides are needed, as not everyone can do it themselves. Some people need help, and that’s ok. Many people in this world need help replacing their transmission, doing their taxes, managing their investments, remodeling their kitchen, or building their garage…..and some need help finding and hunting game. Nothing wrong with needing help with any of those things.
 
Founder said:
Way too many auction tags out there in Utah going to the extra rich. I believe that is the primary reason we have so many outfitters in Utah and why we have so much questionable activities that take place. The big, big money being offered up comes from the extra rich, who buy up all these auction tags. That big money draws a lot of people into the outfitting/guiding world. Competition for those dollars drives guides and outfitters to put in more time and effort to find big stuff, but along with that comes a few who go a bit too far to get their hands on those dollars.
If normal people who draw tags are the ones paying for guides and outfitters, I don’t think we’d see what we do. There would be a limit on the time guides can invest in scouting, monitoring and hunting down animals, because most average people have a financial limit. The super rich do not. They can pay whatever it takes for a tag and they can pay whatever it takes for a group of guides to find the biggest animals in the state. Without limitations, we have what we have.

I have no issue with “a few” auction tags, but what we have in Utah is ridiculous. Way too many in my opinion, but the G&F is as hooked on those dollars as the conservation groups that survive because of those tags. Those who benefit from the tags are the most powerful people in the mix, so it’s a huge uphill battle to reign them in. That’s my 2 cents.

The vast majority of outfitters are good, law abiding folks who love to be in the mountains, and want to help those who just don’t have the time or knowledge to make the most of their tags. It’s only a small few who take it too far and give all a bad name. I believe outfitters and guides are needed, as not everyone can do it themselves. Some people need help, and that’s ok. Many people in this world need help replacing their transmission, doing their taxes, managing their investments, remodeling their kitchen, or building their garage…..and some need help finding and hunting game. Nothing wrong with needing help with any of those things.
Click to expand...
Your 2 cents are spot on!
 
Founder said:
Way too many auction tags out there in Utah going to the extra rich. I believe that is the primary reason we have so many outfitters in Utah and why we have so much questionable activities that take place. The big, big money being offered up comes from the extra rich, who buy up all these auction tags. That big money draws a lot of people into the outfitting/guiding world. Competition for those dollars drives guides and outfitters to put in more time and effort to find big stuff, but along with that comes a few who go a bit too far to get their hands on those dollars.
If normal people who draw tags are the ones paying for guides and outfitters, I don’t think we’d see what we do. There would be a limit on the time guides can invest in scouting, monitoring and hunting down animals, because most average people have a financial limit. The super rich do not. They can pay whatever it takes for a tag and they can pay whatever it takes for a group of guides to find the biggest animals in the state. Without limitations, we have what we have.

I have no issue with “a few” auction tags, but what we have in Utah is ridiculous. Way too many in my opinion, but the G&F is as hooked on those dollars as the conservation groups that survive because of those tags. Those who benefit from the tags are the most powerful people in the mix, so it’s a huge uphill battle to reign them in. That’s my 2 cents.

The vast majority of outfitters are good, law abiding folks who love to be in the mountains, and want to help those who just don’t have the time or knowledge to make the most of their tags. It’s only a small few who take it too far and give all a bad name. I believe outfitters and guides are needed, as not everyone can do it themselves. Some people need help, and that’s ok. Many people in this world need help replacing their transmission, doing their taxes, managing their investments, remodeling their kitchen, or building their garage…..and some need help finding and hunting game. Nothing wrong with needing help with any of those things.
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More than .02, and worth every dollar.
 
If I say I’m tired of people drinking and driving and we need to crack down on impaired driving, it’s not because I’m jealous of idiotic drunk drivers.

If Hoss is violating building codes and breaking the law and I say we need to crack down on his bad behavior, it’s not because I’m jealous I’m not a drywall specialist.

If a lawyer is regularly violating ethical rules in place and breaking criminal laws as well and I say they should take her bar license, it’s not because I’m jealous that person is a POS attorney.

Anyone disagreeing with this must just be jealous of me. It’s the only logical explanation, after all!
 
Founder said:
Way too many auction tags out there in Utah going to the extra rich. I believe that is the primary reason we have so many outfitters in Utah and why we have so much questionable activities that take place. The big, big money being offered up comes from the extra rich, who buy up all these auction tags. That big money draws a lot of people into the outfitting/guiding world. Competition for those dollars drives guides and outfitters to put in more time and effort to find big stuff, but along with that comes a few who go a bit too far to get their hands on those dollars.
If normal people who draw tags are the ones paying for guides and outfitters, I don’t think we’d see what we do. There would be a limit on the time guides can invest in scouting, monitoring and hunting down animals, because most average people have a financial limit. The super rich do not. They can pay whatever it takes for a tag and they can pay whatever it takes for a group of guides to find the biggest animals in the state. Without limitations, we have what we have.

I have no issue with “a few” auction tags, but what we have in Utah is ridiculous. Way too many in my opinion, but the G&F is as hooked on those dollars as the conservation groups that survive because of those tags. Those who benefit from the tags are the most powerful people in the mix, so it’s a huge uphill battle to reign them in. That’s my 2 cents.

The vast majority of outfitters are good, law abiding folks who love to be in the mountains, and want to help those who just don’t have the time or knowledge to make the most of their tags. It’s only a small few who take it too far and give all a bad name. I believe outfitters and guides are needed, as not everyone can do it themselves. Some people need help, and that’s ok. Many people in this world need help replacing their transmission, doing their taxes, managing their investments, remodeling their kitchen, or building their garage…..and some need help finding and hunting game. Nothing wrong with needing help with any of those things.
Click to expand...

It appears there are a lot of outfitters because of how few tags are actually offered that drive those services and price.

When 10% of ALL LE tags are mandated to outfitters on top of auctioned hunts, then you'd have a lot.
 
I have a friend who guides fishing in Utah. He has to apply for permits from the forest service (federal government) yearly to be able to do so legally. He is not guaranteed this permit, but has to fill out he appropriate paperwork each year. Do guides for big game have to do the same? If so this would be an issue with the federal government. I can see some reasons to have guides, and a lot of reasons to restrict guiding in areas. I'm not sure what the answer is.
 
cwprx said:
I have a friend who guides fishing in Utah. He has to apply for permits from the forest service (federal government) yearly to be able to do so legally. He is not guaranteed this permit, but has to fill out he appropriate paperwork each year. Do guides for big game have to do the same? If so this would be an issue with the federal government. I can see some reasons to have guides, and a lot of reasons to restrict guiding in areas. I'm not sure what the answer is.
Click to expand...

Yes. The rules for federal lands (both BLM and USFS) apply to all states.
 
I say ban guides and outfitters on public lands but we know the state can’t do that, they will lose too much money because the bidders of these high dollar tags can’t hunt without having their hand held tightly.

The next best thing would be if the state treated guide licenses the way they do liquor licenses. Make very few of them available and on top of that charge 50% of all guide revenues back to a wildlife restoration fund. Require all assistant guides and observers to be documented as employees with workers comp mandatory.
 
deadibob said:
I say ban guides and outfitters on public lands but we know the state can’t do that, they will lose too much money because the bidders of these high dollar tags can’t hunt without having their hand held tightly.

The next best thing would be if the state treated guide licenses the way they do liquor licenses. Make very few of them available and on top of that charge 50% of all guide revenues back to a wildlife restoration fund. Require all assistant guides and observers to be documented as employees with workers comp mandatory.
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You can waive worker comp if you don't have employees. The outfitters would just 1099 the spotters, or the spotters would just be independent contractors.

Which, I'm betting is already going on.
 
hossblur said:
You can waive worker comp if you don't have employees. The outfitters would just 1099 the spotters, or the spotters would just be independent contractors.

Which, I'm betting is already going on.
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I understand that and I'm sure very few if any are even 1099'd, my point is to change it and require workers comp, those costs alone would in theory but probably not realistically reduce the posse numbers.

Mandatory IRS auditing would make most of them give up their license ? ;)
 
1697479373977.png
 
deadibob said:
I understand that and I'm sure very few if any are even 1099'd, my point is to change it and require workers comp, those costs alone would in theory but probably not realistically reduce the posse numbers.

Mandatory IRS auditing would make most of them give up their license ? ;)
Click to expand...

I got where you were going.

If you want to accomplish that you make them bnd, or carry liability insurance
 
Truth is never tone deaf.

Do you ever think about your neighbor?

Have you ever thought maybe you have a really bad idea before you typed it here?

You will get the wildlife you deserve.
 
I guess I don't have a problem with 1 guide and 1 hunter hunting together as that's how it should be. There are lots of people who want to hunt who don't really know how to hunt and they need led around like a child in the woods to get the job done. I get that. We all know about 20 people that require a guide and if they didn't have one, we all know that most of them would never kill anything. There's a ton of those guys right here on this very site and it's pretty obvious at times.

BUT

The problem that I have is these outfitters don't stop there.....A lot of them think that they own the public ground for #1 and some of the outfitters that have 8 people scouting and assisting to fill 1 tag for #2. (See Paunsaugunt Example...)

I mean seriously, does anyone in Utah hunt with less than 4 people to help them fill their tag on an elk? About every video on YouTube shows a truck load of guys and one "hunter" who is shooting when told to shoot. To be honest, it's quite sickening.

To me, that is pathetic and since we all know that no outfitting business is going to every play fair by a rule of 1 hunter to 1 guide, I say, no guiding on public land AT ALL.

If the guides want to lead around the "hunters" to the biggest bull in the area, that's fine but they should have to do it on private ground. If they are caught driving the animals from the public to the private ground, they should be thrown in prison for 1 year and forfeit their guide license forever.

My .02
 
I honestly don’t think it’s the guides that are the problem, I think that’s simply a side effect of a structure and culture that has been created. Everyone wants to shoot the biggest animal on the mountain and if they have the money they’ll pay for help to do so, if they don’t, many times friends and family fill that void. The state is managed for older animals on many units, what would happen if that went away and there wasn’t an expectation to shoot a 400” bull or 200” buck with your LE tag? If things were managed for a biologically healthy quantity and large animals were not the expectation I think the cultural focus may be different. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think guides are the problem. There is an incentive and expectation to shoot big animals in Utah be it financially or via recognition, and that drives a lot of the behavior we see in Utah IMO.

That said, because of the structure and money thrown at these tags, wildlife has a greater monetary value and it turn has likely benefited in many ways. Yeah the posse can be annoying but again, I think it’s a symptom of the system.
 
Last edited:
Founder said:
Way too many auction tags out there in Utah going to the extra rich. I believe that is the primary reason we have so many outfitters in Utah and why we have so much questionable activities that take place. The big, big money being offered up comes from the extra rich, who buy up all these auction tags. That big money draws a lot of people into the outfitting/guiding world. Competition for those dollars drives guides and outfitters to put in more time and effort to find big stuff, but along with that comes a few who go a bit too far to get their hands on those dollars.
If normal people who draw tags are the ones paying for guides and outfitters, I don’t think we’d see what we do. There would be a limit on the time guides can invest in scouting, monitoring and hunting down animals, because most average people have a financial limit. The super rich do not. They can pay whatever it takes for a tag and they can pay whatever it takes for a group of guides to find the biggest animals in the state. Without limitations, we have what we have.

I have no issue with “a few” auction tags, but what we have in Utah is ridiculous. Way too many in my opinion, but the G&F is as hooked on those dollars as the conservation groups that survive because of those tags. Those who benefit from the tags are the most powerful people in the mix, so it’s a huge uphill battle to reign them in. That’s my 2 cents.

The vast majority of outfitters are good, law abiding folks who love to be in the mountains, and want to help those who just don’t have the time or knowledge to make the most of their tags. It’s only a small few who take it too far and give all a bad name. I believe outfitters and guides are needed, as not everyone can do it themselves. Some people need help, and that’s ok. Many people in this world need help replacing their transmission, doing their taxes, managing their investments, remodeling their kitchen, or building their garage…..and some need help finding and hunting game. Nothing wrong with needing help with any of those things.
Click to expand...
Well said
 
lif said:
I’ve definitely been a “no guiding on public lands” guy for a long time. It seems odd that a private business can use public lands and public animals to profit.

Guided hunts, shed hunting, unit wide landowner tags, governors tags, etc. All this now revolves around profit and money. Everything I learned and experienced growing up in the outdoors was the opposite mindset of money and profit. It represented peacefulness, freedom, and being one with nature. Get the guides off our public lands!! Get landowner tags off public lands!!
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What about ranchers using public land for there finacial gain. I don't like hunting around cattle so we should just get rid of them as well.
 
tallelkchaser said:
I honestly don’t think it’s the guides that are the problem, I think that’s simply a side effect of a structure and culture that has been created. Everyone wants to shoot the biggest animal on the mountain and if they have the money they’ll pay for help to do so, if they don’t, many times friends and family fill that void. The state is managed for older animals on many units, what would happen if that went away and there wasn’t an expectation to shoot a 400” bull or 200” buck with your LE tag? If things were managed for a biologically healthy quantity and large animals were not the expectation I think the cultural focus may be different. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think guides are the problem. There is an incentive and expectation to shoot big animals in Utah be it financially or via recognition, and that drives a lot of the behavior we see in Utah IMO.

That said, because of the structure and money thrown at these tags, wildlife has a greater monetary value and it turn has likely benefited in many ways. Yeah the posse can be annoying but again, I think it’s a symptom of the system.
Click to expand...
I definitely think there is a hunting culture where most want the biggest animals. Without a doubt! But I also think outfitting is at the forefront of creating and structuring the culture which has escalated the desire for the biggest. Guides simply want to attract the most hunters so they can have more clients. How do they attract? They consistently kill and post to showcase their success and there's at least 10-15 well established outfitters I can name just off the top of my head that do just that. I guess that's not just guides though, that's anyone who wants make money off of hunting. However, maybe the whole culture shift started when mankind stopped hunting for a necessity to live and started hunting for sport?
Sorry that was a lot of thoughts all jumbled together lol
 
Guides and outfitters have been here longer than modern sport hunters

Teddy Roosevelt used outfitters/guides, on more than one occasion…… so did European and Russian royalty and the wealthy from around the world, prior to the pre Roosevelt era. Sport hunters in America have used outfitters longer before the last 100 years. I haven’t researched it but I would guess outfitters have been hired across the world before America was America. Like everything else the worlds businessmen make money any way it’s legal to do so………. and some make money illegally as well.

I don’t have the money nor the desire to hire an outfitter but in my case I’ve wanted to hunt, on occasion, where I was required to hire one by the government there. I’ve hunted with excellent ones and ones I wouldn’t recommend to anyone. So I’m neither for against……… again your beloved bureaucrats control the system, if you have a complaint about the outfitter system, take it up with the agency being paid to deal with it. They hold every card in that deck.
 

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