looking for idaho muzzleloader

[grouseslayer]

Im looking for a new muzzleloader to use in Idaho. I looked at a north west explorer at dicks in Pocatello, it seamed like a solid gun. What are your thoughts or is there any other suggestions on other guns? I am open to a inline or side lock I just want something accurate and legal Idaho. I also want to be able to put on a different sight such as a peep to help my accuracy. The north west explorer has a 1:48 twist I believe will this shoot chronicles very well?

 

[txhunter58]

It still has a QLA which makes it questionable for conicals in my book. They should guarantee its accuracy though as it states it will shoot conicals. Of course, they said that on their website on Omeagas at one time. Let us know........

I have a T/C renegade that shoots well, so I recommend that gun. However, I use a Kap Kover to protect the breech. Not sure if that device would be legal in Idaho because it covers and waterproofs the nipple?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[grouseslayer]

What is a QLA, is that where the front of the barrel is bigger in diameter to make it easier to load?

 

[txhunter58]

Yes, it is the front part of the barrel where the rifling has been removed. Does allow you to drop the bullet in and makes it easier to load. However, if it is cut slightly off center, it will kick concials off alignment when they enter that part of the barrel before it clears the end. Doesn't seem to affect sabots and conicals with a bell shape on the rear (powerbelts, FPBs) but other conicals can be kicked off allignment.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Idahoron]

I use Hot Rod Renegade's, and Hot Rod Hawkens. They are fast twist with peep sights that are adjustable to the yardage your shot is. Kind of like a Tactical muzzleloader.

I also use Paper patched conicals that are sized to fit the barrels. Accuracy is outstanding with these rigs.

In your case I would not recommend the North west gun. 1-48 is not enough to use for conicals. Look for an older Knight MK85 or a BK 92 or a older white or The Remington 700 ML is good. These would make great Idaho legal guns. All of them will shoot a conical well. Not as well as mine but they will do. Ron

 

[TETRA]

>I use Hot Rod Renegade's, and
>Hot Rod Hawkens. They
>are fast twist with peep
>sights that are adjustable to
>the yardage your shot is.
>Kind of like a Tactical
>muzzleloader.
>
>

>

>
>I also use Paper patched conicals
>that are sized to fit
>the barrels. Accuracy is outstanding
>with these rigs.
>
>In your case I would not
>recommend the North west gun.
>1-48 is not enough to
>use for conicals. Look for
>an older Knight MK85 or
>a BK 92 or a
>older white or The Remington
>700 ML is good. These
>would make great Idaho legal
>guns. All of them will
>shoot a conical well. Not
>as well as mine but
>they will do. Ron

RON... Can you give us a closer look at that rear sight? Did they come with those guns?
Thanks

 

[grouseslayer]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-12 AT 07:42PM (MST)[p]Ron, do you build your own guns or have some one else. That is really what I would like to eventually have, that is why I am not opposed to a side lock. If you don't mind how much do you have into a gun like that? Also where do you get your sights? Would a sight similar to yours work on a newer inline?

 

[3blade]

Guys, Ron's guns, the top is a renegade stock with a stainless green mtn barrela with 1@28 twist. The bottom is a hawken stock with a green mtn barrel. You can pick up stocks off ebay with lock assembly's or possibly Track of the Wolf for about 125 or so. As far as I know, Green mtn is no longer making stainless barrels but you can get them in blue for around 200 at Midway. The sight is a Lyman 57sml and I think the front sight is a Lyman aml. They end up looking like this

That is a TC sight on back. I have a little retrofitting to do to get the Lyman to fit. Which reminds me, Ron, did you have to shim underneath the rear sight?

 

[grouseslayer]

Are the lyman sights interchangeable from right to left hand? Is all the work on switching to the green mt barrel possible by myself or do you need a gun smith? Would the green mt barrel make enough difference to justify the cost if I just went with a new great plains hunter?

 

[Idahoron]

Your right. What I did was find the stocks with the hardware on ebay and gunbroker. I paid as low as 125.00 for a whole gun and as much as 200 for a stock.
The Barrel is a Green Mountain LRH stainless. They have stainless carbine barrels but for full length they only have blued.





The sights are the Lyman 57 SML and the globe is the Lyman 17 AML. But, The insert is a Lee Shavers BPCR inserts. I use them for a finer aiming point. This sight is actually the Lee SHavers globe with a level to keep me from canting at long range.

Most Hawkens need to be drilled for the rear sight. Some older one's had the third hole already drilled. ALL of the Renegades have to be drilled and tapped to make the sight fit.
I have a tutorial posted on this sight how to install the rear sight. Here is a closer look.

They are 1/4" click adjustments with a push button for rapid adjustment. So When I want to shoot. I take a range finder and get the range. The sight is sighted in with the range finder. SO I get the range and set the sight for that range. SO if the shot is 125 I set it for 125. If it is 75 I set it for 75. I don't hold over or under. here is a close up of the yardage makers.

The first white mark is 50, then 100, 150, 200, 250, and 300.
I don't take a first shot past 150. If something goes wrong I have it sighted in out to 300 but I have never had to go past 175.

The rear sights are about 100.00. the Lyman front sight is about 30 and the insert is about 20 I don't remember. The Lee Shavers front sight is 125.00 I think.
I got my stainless barrels for 100.00 each. I got dang lucky on a close out. You can still get a 45 in a stainless. That is what the Hawken is. 3Blade is right. you can hunt the parts down any where. I got one at a yard say one time. The sights and barrel are the expensive part you almost have to get new.
The Renegades are all 1" barrels. The Hawkens are 15/16 for the 45 up to the 50 cal. The Hawken 54 was a 1" barrel.
Like I said before I have a lot of info on these guns and how to build them. It is easy and rewarding. You also end up with a gun that shoots. Look up the old posts if you have any questions feel free to ask. Ron

 

[Idahoron]

>Are the lyman sights interchangeable from
>right to left hand? Is
>all the work on switching
>to the green mt barrel
>possible by myself or do
>you need a gun smith?
>Would the green mt barrel
>make enough difference to justify
>the cost if I just
>went with a new great
>plains hunter?

I don't know if you can use them left hand or not.
Switching the barrel is not much work at all. YOu take the pin out and remove the barrel. Put the GM in it's place. On a Renegade you have to shorten the Underrib or file the stock to make it fit.

It is the sights that is the most work. Is it worth it? To me it was.

Sub 2" groups are the normal group for these rifles. I have shot a lot of sub 1" groups with them. I can't do it as often as I used to. This is my best group.

I did all the work my self with normal tools around the house. A gun smith is not needed. If you wanted to have a gun smith drill and tap the hole it would cost under 20 dollars.
I shoot a Paper Patched 500 S&W bullet in my 50 cal. I don't know if the 1-32 twist of the Lyman would shoot it as good or not. I am sure it would shoot the Hornady Great plains bullets.
I have shot some great animals with this set up. Ron

My son got these deer.

If you have questions feel free to ask. Ron

 

[3blade]

>Are the lyman sights interchangeable from
>right to left hand? Is
>all the work on switching
>to the green mt barrel
>possible by myself or do
>you need a gun smith?
>Would the green mt barrel
>make enough difference to justify
>the cost if I just
>went with a new great
>plains hunter?

The great plains hunter won't work because it has 2 barrel wedges and grn mtn barrels only have 1 wedge slot. If I was going to modify a Lyman it would be the Deerstalker. The barrel should pretty much drop right in, might have to file the tang a bit. The Deerstalker has a recoil pad. If you are going to shoot heavy conicals you are going to want that recoil pad. The great plains with that 1/32 twist should work pretty well for conicals up to 400 grs. But I've never shot one so I can't say how accurate they are. I do have a deerstalker in 54 and it drives tacks out to 100 yds with 530 balls. Beyond that it takes a dump.

 

[Idahoron]

> Ron, did you
>have to shim underneath the
>rear sight?

I missed your question before.
On my Hawken I did build a shim. The tang was a little lower inset on this rifle than the Renegades. I needed to do something to build it up. I used aluminum to build the block and used a file to get the thickness right so the sight would move vertical. This also gave me WAY more vertical adjustment. For target shooting I can get way out there. The shim also helps the fit. On all my other rifles I had to alter the back side of the mount to get it to fit next to the stock. Ron

 

[3blade]

I missed your question before.
>On my Hawken I did build
>a shim. The tang was
>a little lower inset on
>this rifle than the Renegades.
>I needed to do something
>to build it up. I
>used aluminum to build the
>block and used a file
>to get the thickness right
>so the sight would move
>vertical. This also gave me
>WAY more vertical adjustment. For
>target shooting I can get
>way out there. The shim
>also helps the fit. On
>all my other rifles I
>had to alter the back
>side of the mount to
>get it to fit next
>to the stock. Ron
>

That sounds like what I am going to have to do. The tang on this stock sits a little low, right below the stock, I suppose I could shim the tang. I could also refinish the stock and take down a little wood but I'm not sure if I want to do that. I don't want to remove anymore metal from under the curved section of the sight at this point. Seems like shimming it would be a little easier than a stock refinish. Thanks Ron.
Dan

 

[elknut]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12 AT 10:03AM (MST)[p]Thought I would share my new gun I just put together ? it's a 50cal 21" TC Renegade with a SS Green Mountain 1-28 twist. I just fell in love with Idahoron?s guns so I started to look around for used TC?s. I was surprised how often they would pop up for sale. I really wanted a "higher grade looking" wood stock and finely I found one in SLC.

Also, GM does have barrels in SS / 50 / Ren, when I ordered mine they had 8, then when I got mine 2 months later (got lost in the shipping process) they had 3 left.

I did shorten the ?Underrib? but it's very easy, just unscrew it, and cut it off a bit ? then screw it back on - takes 10min (I did mine with a grinder but a hack saw and file to finish would work just as good). I think the ?drop-in? barrel can be a bit confusing for people that don't know, really it's just another barrel for the gun ? like when you clean the gun it's the same process, pull the pin, take it off the stock and put it back on, that easy.

I took it out to shoot last week, seems to shoot just a bit to the right but without working up a load or adjusting sights yet, I did shoot a few in the same hole at 50 yards ? can't wait to fine tune it. I will say it's very fast off the trigger - nice surprise. I'm into the full gun at $450.00.

The gun is overall very small, my 8 year old shot it twice the kick was OK for him. My 13 year old can manage the weight, he also loved shooting it, more so than my Knight Disc with a scope -- he wants to be the first to kill something - can't think of a better project for a father/son to work on.

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/productdetail.aspx?id=910215S

 

[3blade]

elknut, nice looking gun.

Ron, whats the barrel twist in your 45?

 

[Idahoron]

elknut, that is a fantastic looking rifle. You got REAL lucky finding that one with that kind of wood.

3blade, I have two 45's. The Renegade with the long barrel is a 32" long .458 with a 1-18 twist.

The Hawken is a .451 with a 1-30 twist.
Yesterday I took both of them out to shoot. I am trying out a couple of new bullets.
This first one is a Pedersoli 350 gr .446" I shot this out of the 1-18 twist and it was ok nothing special.

I shot this one next it is a 405 gr RCBS 11mm .446". This one like the other was nothing special.

I moved on to the .451 Hawken. The Pedersoli was again nothing special. I moved on to the RCBS in the Hawken and we have a winner. This was the first 100 yard group. I shot a 3 shot group and decided to see how many I could get before it blew out. I used 80 gr of pyrodex P with an over powder wad.

This next group was the same but I left out the over powder wad.

This bullet is coming out at 1421 FPS with only 80 gr of Pyrodex P. With this 405 gr bullet This load has over 1800 fpe at the muzzle and still has over 1000 fpe past 200 yards. With the first two groups with this bullet being sub 1.5" at 100 yards this bullet has a lot going for it. If this load proves to be dependable it will be my Deer and Antelope rifle. Ron

 

[3blade]

Ron, it appears that the 1@28 to 1@30 twist likes 400 to 450 gr bullets don't they?

 

[Idahoron]

The 50 has a 1-28 twist and shoots a 460 gr bullet. The Hawken has 1-30 twist and I am using a 409 gr bullet. The 45 would be only used on deer and antelope. I wish Idaho had rules in place to use a 45 with this kind of bullet for elk. But if they allowed a 45 then someone would use a PRB 45. Ron

 

[3blade]

hey Ron, you ever try paper patching the lee mini in the .50?

 

[Idahoron]

Not the Minie but I do paper patch the Lee 500 S&W. They are great. Ron

 

[grouseslayer]

I have a uncle that builds muzzleloaders from scratch and is excited to help me build any thing I want. We have decided to build a English Rigby with a tang sight. His supplyer has a 1:32 twist barrel that he will sell me for $30 cheaper then a diffrent one just because he built it for someone else that backed out. Will this be a good barrel for chronicles,or should I pay the extra for a 1:28 or 1:16 twist? I figure if I am going to spend the time and money to build this I want to make it as accurate as possible. Most of his guns he has built are a earlier time period which are flint locks that shoot patch and round ball so he wasnt sure how much diffrence it would make.

 

[3blade]

The Lyman Great Plains Hunter has a 1:32 twist and although I have never shot that rifle, some guys swear by it. From what I've read that is a good twist for sabots or conicals. I do believe that the faster the twist the heavier the conical that the barrel will stabilize. I also think that the faster the twist the longer the bullet can be, maybe Ron will chime in on this. Trust me, a little lighter bullet is not a bad thing. I went out today and did some bench work shooting 410gr bullets and my shoulder is swollen. My 54 ball gun packs far less recoil. I'm not a big guy tho so that probably makes a difference. Next time I'll have some kind of pad between me and the butt

 

[LuckyShot]

I have a Knight Bighorn that I will sell you for a good price. Its an in-line version. It's a great gun that is very accurate with the Milet Red Dot scope. I killed a nice buck a few years ago from 225 yards, so it shoots very accurate as well. It's been very well taken care of. I can send you picks if you're interested. Just let me know. Asking price is $150.00. It has a 24" barrel with a 1/28 twist.

Thanks! Kip. 801-472-6555

 

[3blade]

I'd sell you my Renegade too! Pm me if you're interested.

 

[grouseslayer]

Thanks for the offers on your guns but building one has been something I have wanted to do for about 15 years, since my uncle started. Plus I already have parts coming. 3blade if yours is set up like rons I have a buddy that might be interested. Send me a pm with some pics if it is set up.

 

[3blade]

elknut and Ron, quick question. Whats the standard length of pull on your Renegade stocks? 14 1/2"?

tks