Mexican wolves thriving AZ and NM

Gator

Long Time Member
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Surveyors counted 83 individual Mexican wolves in the wild in AZ and NM during2013 (8) more then the year before.

The count has DOUBLED over the past (4) years.

Seven of the 14 known packs produced pups, and (17) Seventeen of those pups survived into the new year. All of the counted wolves are Wild-born descendants of a breeding Program that started with just (7) captive wolves.
While the wolves are now thriving in the wild, their subspecies remains on the federal endangered species list and more RELEASES of captive-bred wolves are planned to maintain genetic diversity within the wild population.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
I am glad they are thriving. I am not happy about the northern grey wolfs, and I know I get slack for it but they are not the same species that was down in the lower 48. I don't care who you are saying well the skull looked about the same does not say anything. Needless to say if they would have taken Mexican Greys and released them in yellowstone I would not have had a issue with it as they were much closer to what was here previously.
 
There must be an old strain of the parvo virus that could be reintroduced into the population or a couple den sites. The tainted meat would still taste good as it was being eaten. just sayin
 
If they are counting wolves like they do in other parts of the country you can multiply that # by 4
 
The AZGFD is proposing an alternative to the EIS of the Mexican Gray Wolf proposed expansion. Terry Johnson whom used to work for the AZGFD has put together a 29 page Alternative to the USFWS proposal. It is calling for up to 150 wolves in AZ and 150 in NM. This is completely unacceptable to most of the rural residents of both states.

There is a stakeholders meeting in Phoenix Friday to discuss this proposal and Catron County, NM as well as the AZ/NM Coalition of Counties are going to be there in opposition to the substantial proposed allowing for the huge increase from 100 wolves to 300 wolves. Out Catron County Commission and the Coalition of Counties have strong feeling that we don't want any more wolves. We were promised 100 and now their is an official move by the AZGFD to enlarge the program.

It is a move for AZ to reinforce it States rights to control the wolf population once they hit the goal but there are many good ideas in the proposal but we do not want an expansion of the already saturated wolf numbers in our areas here in NM and AZ. We feel that the 83 count is low and that they are mostly wild born wolves already at the tipping point of a huge population growth and they are already having a tremendous impact on some of our livestock producers and we are seeing a big hit on some of our elk herds. 83 wolves require a lot of livestock and elk to survive.

Many of us had resigned our fate to having 100 wolves and now they are moving the goal post much further up the road.

I will be in Phoenix Friday fighting for my livelihood and for my friends and neighbors.
 
Terry is an old tree hugging fag that makes a living on jaguars and planting wolves around the state. He is not a friend of hunters or fisherman.
 
Stoney- I admire your passion about this issue, but this is a done deal. The Feds really don't give a rat's patootie about anything you have to say. I totally understand what you are saying and trying to accomplish here. But the Feds are going to do what they are going to do, regardless of how it affects those actually living there. They are beholding to, and scared of the radical environmentalist groups. Lawsuits cost money... and the Federal Government pays on both ends. These groups have figured out how to bastardize the Endangered Species Act and use it to further their radical agenda.

Good luck to you in the fight.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-14 AT 10:10AM (MST)[p]Stoney---Where can this AZGFD expansion proposal be found?
 
Arizona and New Mexico would be way ahead of the curve by working on State Management Plans.

Trying to fight for no wolves is a waste of time, energy, money, and effort. Its not going to happen.

I can also assure you that if Stoney argues in wolf meetings like he does on this board, he's not going to have any success. A negotiation is not something where you get everything you ask for. Collaboration and negotiation are not meant to be one-sided and wont work unless theres pain felt by all sides of ANY issue.

Many of the public meetings turn into nothing more than a pi$$ing match, much like these threads. The idea is to work up a solution that everyone can live with, even if nobody gets their way.

I can assure you that the Wolf Hippies in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming do not feel happy right now with wolf hunting, trapping, etc. But, they realized without collaboration and conceding to the States Management Plans, wolves wouldnt have been reintroduced at all.

At the same time, the wolf haters that think there should be no wolves arent happy either. Their concession was reindroduction. Their win was the assurance of State Wolf Management plans that included lethal wolf control and hunting/trapping.

When all groups are sort of happy, and sort of pi$$ed...thats a good place to be and proof positive that collaboration works.
 
I did hear that the wolves will be in Unit 22 and 23 after F&G is done with the new release. Don't know if that is true or not.

I got the article out of FUR-FISH-GAME Magazine. The latest issue.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
There are tools in place via the Idaho State Plan to deal with being "overrun with em".

Those that negotiated your State Plan made sure of that.

Its your own fault if you're failing to utilize the toolbox thats been provided to you.
 
BuzzH,

This Mexican Wolf EIS Alternative proposal was put together by Terry Johnson (ex AZGDF official whom is very controversial) for specifically for the AZ-NM Mexican Wolf Management Plan. It is specifically proposed as a management plan for the both states to manage the wolves we have now into the future. It contains some new proposed numbers of wolves that may or may not be acceptable to the USFWS.

This is a proposed AZ-NM "State Plan", Buzz. We are working hard to stay ahead of the curve on States rights and a plan that we can have wolves and still be able to have our great hunting and ranching opportunities.

It is a pretty much invited closed meeting with around 45 participants expected and will be held near the AZGFD in the Shooting Sports Range "Activity Center" on 5000 Carefree Hwy.

We are all pretty much in agreement that we will be managing for wolves into the future and the big question is how many and how much country are they wanting to add to the Blue Range Recovery Area. This meeting is not about "no wolves" it is about "no more wolves" and no more expansion of the recovery area.

If you are so darned good Buzz maybe we need to hire you to come down and represent us?
 
BuzzH
Why don't U try packing 20 miles in to
the Selway, where the wolves are Overrun.
And lets see how easy it is to control wolves.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-14 AT 11:04AM (MST)[p]I have packed into the Selway 20 miles...your lack of ambition is a personal choice and excuse.

Stoney, you couldnt afford to hire me.

It also sounds like your attendance at the meeting is going to be a waste of everyones time. You've already drawn your line in the sand...nothing to negotiate, meeting over.
 
BuzzH,

What an egotistical jerk!

The line is not drawn in the sand, we are only trying to get an alternative that will give us our state's rights and have a good plan in place. It is a 30 page comprehensive package and has much good in in for the states to take control of the Mexican Gray Wolf program.

This is an invitation of stakeholders which includes State Government officials including AZGFD and legislators. It includes County governments, livestock producers, hunting interests as well as outfitters.

You come off as being the only waste of time on MM.
 
stoney---I will ask again if you would please advise where the AZGFD language is that is asking for more wolves, as well as where I can find this "30 page comprehensive package" you are now speaking of. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that meeting because if you speak at the microphone like you do on these Forums you and your constituents have about as much chance as a snowball in he** of gaining anything positive from your attendance!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-14 AT 01:29PM (MST)[p]Stoney,

You or the rest of the AZ & NM hunters do not need Buzz to make things worse. The Buzz H types have figured out how to work the system, the Endangered Species Act, to use it to ramrod their own greenie ideas at taxpayers expense. I suspect wolf hippies are paying him plenty already...or at least they should be!!! Buzz is a false flag hunter...


Buzz,

>I have packed into the Selway
>20 miles...your lack of ambition
>is a personal choice and
>excuse.
>

Still waiting for you Mr Buzz, to prove that your not just all talk and no action...Where is your collection of dead wolves??? You make it sound so easy?? Waiting to see if you can kill something more challenging than rag horn bulls and antelope bucks (which is child's play)...
 
Wolfhunter,

The only things you've ever proven you can shoot is your mouth...and yourself in the foot.

Nice work!
 
Topgun,

The 30 page proposal written by Terry Johnson is in draft form and is a working proposal for client/coalition use only. It is not a public document as of yet, until after the Friday meeting of stakeholders in Phoenix and we come to some kind of agreement on the proposal.

I do just fine speaking in front of my constituents and the public, thank you, as I have been a leader of many organizations for many years and have had leadership training over the years. Just because I am not a liberal leaning so called hunting expert such as yourself and you have never ran into anybody like me that calls out your greenie ways and I don't conform to the likes of you and mostly don't agree with anything you say.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-14 AT 06:35PM (MST)[p]>Topgun,
>
>The 30 page proposal written by
>Terry Johnson is in draft
>form and is a working
>proposal for client/coalition use only.
>It is not a public
>document as of yet, until
>after the Friday meeting of
>stakeholders in Phoenix and we
>come to some kind of
>agreement on the proposal.
>
>I do just fine speaking in
>front of my constituents and
>the public, thank you, as
>I have been a leader
>of many organizations for many
>years and have had leadership
>training over the years. Just
>because I am not a
>liberal leaning so called hunting
>expert such as yourself and
>you have never ran into
>anybody like me that calls
>out your greenie ways and
>I don't conform to the
>likes of you and mostly
>don't agree with anything you
>say.


***That response is exactly why you won't get anywhere if you talk like that to your audience on Friday. I'm as far from a Lib as you can get and am no more a greenie than you are, LOL! I also don't ever recall saying I was an expert at hunting or anything else, but I'm certainly more well-versed on a lot of what we're discussing on these wolf threads that you obviously are. Good luck in your meeting, as you're going to need all you can get with your pizz poor attitude when people like myself and BigFin offer our help.
 
Topgun,

Well I guess I don't know how you are wired but it darn sure seems like you have some wires crossed.

We will do just fine at our meeting on Friday no thanks to you or the other negative commentors here. We are trying to learn from your successes and mistakes to move forward with the USFWS and their big expansion plans for our wolves. We have watched and studied all you guys have done up north and we hope to use the positives from up there to help us in gaining a fair shake and State control of the wolf populations that we are stuck with and hope to mitigate the proposed increase in wolf numbers they are pushing for.

Leave Big Fin out of this discussion as he already showed his colors and they are sure tinting to the green side with his love for TU. Are you a member of any of the major conservation groups such as TU and WF's?

Conservation organizations do some good but many of them are true and pure environmental groups whom don't necessarily want the same things all of the people I know and work with.
 
Stoney, you obviously don't read what is typed because I have said more than once that I wish wolves would have never been introduced. I have also said that they are here to stay because of us being outnumbered by city slickers that you call greenies and I would hope that all of us could work together to bring wolves down to as low a level as can be done everywhere and still keep them delisted. That is EXACTLY what you have stated your goal is now that you know you will not get rid of them all, so what is your problem with me? It's also really none of your business what organizations I belong to because that's the only way you seem to label people, which is wrong. However, to shut you up I will tell you that I belong to the RMEF and NWTF as far as national organizations. If you have a problem with either one of them and all the good work they do, then too bad. Right now I don't belong to any small organizations because I'd rather put my money with the bigger groups that have some clout. However, I may join a small group that just got started in the last couple years in Wyoming in dealing with mule deer because I like what I'm seeing of them so far. Good luck at your meeting.
 
Topgun,

Finally you have written a nice synopsis of yourself and you do sound like a good guy.

My question is how come you always attack most everything I try to say here? I only label people whom seem to belong to or believe in some of the liberal conservation organizations and yet they don't really know what those organizations are all about. The ones mentioned above are against much natural resource production especially on Federal lands. Wise use of our natural resource is good and needed and especially in the renewable natural resources such a grazing and timber. We fight these people all the time and some of them happen to hunt and fish.
 
Stoney, your too funny. Calling Big Fin a greenie, is so rediculous it's really not worth responding too. I thought about it awhile and figured what the he!!.

He filmed the first wolf being taken on camera for a TV program. He got death threats from real "Greenie's" You wouldn't know the difference between a greenie and your weenie, if you had both in either of your hands.

Your biggest problem is your arrogant. You have no capability to fully understand the complexities of the wolf situation. That's why you will fail. Those that came before you, and where like you have lost, and are now considered the town fools. Your not the first to come out with all this doom and gloom, this thing has been going on for a long time.

You need to turn your fight toward them not alienating yourself from those that could help.

Big Fin, could be your greatest ally, so could Buzz. Your not going to stop the wolf program, you need to understand that.

Absorb the fact that your so "RED" your on the extreme fringe. If you can get that through your thick head you might be able to join in the discussions that really will become meaningful.

Your reputation will be at stake, unless your content to just preach to the choir.

The winds of change are going to blow, and you might be able to get some breaks built, but for sure those winds are going to change things in your back yard. Get that through your head.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Report is..... a pack of 6 wolves has killed over 125 elk off a Wyoming elk feed ground in the last 4 months. The last ten elk the wolves have killed have been killed for pure sport, nothing has been eaten. Oh and Buzz those 10 kills were in one night! Kind of shoots the experts statements down that "wolves only kill 2-3 times a week" AGAIN!! The area the wolves are killing in, has a quota of one wolf...that quota filled in one day last season.

Hmmm! Wonder whats going to happen next year when the pack is twelve wolves strong or more???

Buzz, when do you think it would be a good idea to simply kill the pack? Now, or after the wolves destroy the elk herd depending on this feed ground??? Because my friend destruction is a mathematic certainty in this case. It's simply kill the wolves or say good bye to the elk herd....

So what should a good sportsman do???????????????
 
How was the meeting?


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
Hey Buzz,

Why is it you tuck tail and run from the ugly truth about wolves?? Please tell me why?? Blow me out of the water if you can on this one. Truth hurts! Oh hey, the wolves killed 5 elk in the last couple of nights...wolves are making liars out of your experts, AGAIN!!
 
Funny how a simple information request has the crickets chirping...

Without proof, it didnt happen.

Thats the nice way of saying I dont believe your barstool gossip.
 
Buzzy,

Oh it's happening, why don't you ring up Tim Fox, head guy at the Jackson Hole regional G&F office(1-800-733-2276) and get the word from him... I dare you!!! While your at it you should interview ALL of the guys running the WYGF feed grounds in western Wyoming and get the REAL untold truth about wolves. THE TRUTH WILL HURT BUZZ!!

Most of the negative truth about wolves is not getting published. Kind of convenient for you and the experts. Or, is it part of the plan!

I did not figure you would have any defense of the REAL truth...AGAIN!!!
 
Lets see...4 months, 6 wolves, 125...no...wait, its now 130 dead elk. Pretty amazing how they always kill in increments of 5???

One would think that 6 wolves would kill in increments of 6...must be one in the pack that just isnt getting it done.

You really exepect us all to believe that 6 wolves are killing more than 1 elk per day?

When do they find time to eat?

Barstool gossip as a best case, and without proof it simply didnt happen.

There is NO way that this kind of killing would stay out of the news...your pal toby would see that it made headlines in every newspaper in the West.

BTW, did you know that the elk counts in Jackson are up? Even with the high hunter success in the area last fall?

Seems those wolves better get with it, or you're going to run out of lies/material.
 
Actually Buzz the wolves kill in pairs or all together, most of the kills the wounds are the same. One wolf bites the neck and the other wolves rip the guts out. Then they move on to the next elk until they kill enough for the night. Some parts do get eaten. Oh, and by the way there are three greys and three blacks in the pack. Maybe the wolves like odd numbers... Couple of the wolves have collars so this carnage is no secret, except from the public.

I did not figure you were man enough to call Tim Fox...
 
So, GF biologists have confirmed that all the "supposed" 130 dead elk were killed by 6 wolves?

Its all a secret and the GF is "hiding" this information from the public?

You arent serious...April fools right?
 
No Buzz call them and find the truth for yourself. Simple!!!

That way when the herd numbers start to drop you can not just blame it on Habitat this time...Laugh'n or just say'n!!
 
The herd numbers are increasing for both elk and moose in Western Wyoming.

Care to explain?
 
My...I thought the wolves ate all the elk?

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_28b2871b-eeee-5254-964d-8265cb17e1b6.html

JACKSON, Wyo. ? The number of elk killed in the Jackson Hole area is up over last season.

Data from the Wyoming Game and Fish Department released this week shows hunters killed 1,437 animals from the Jackson Elk Herd last fall, a 30 percent increase.

Statewide, it was a banner year for elk hunters. For the second year in a row, hunters harvested more than 25,000 elk.
 
My...high harvest and highest elk counts in 15 years.

The wolves ate all the elk...

Wait..What?

Jackson, WY (AP) - Managers of the National Elk Refuge say they've counted more elk on the refuge this winter than at any time in the past 15 years.

Refuge biologist Eric Cole says the latest count is close to 8,300 animals. That's an increase of nearly 2,000 over the number counted last year, and the most counted since 1998.

The Jackson Hole News & Guide reports the average count is about 6,600 animals.

The elk refuge is located just north of Jackson in Jackson Hole. Each winter, refuge officials put out alfalfa pellet feed to help elk survive after snow covers up their natural forage.

Cole says it's not yet known if the higher count is because of a bigger elk population or a change in elk behavior.

Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
 
The Moose numbers are increasing in western Wyoming is laughable!!!! Somebody needs to get their counter checked. Or quit their job for lying through their teeth!!! Moose are in terrible shape in western Wyoming.
 
Buzz,

All your smoke and mirrors with the Jackson elk herd does not change the simple FACT that a pack of wolves is surplus killing on two feed grounds just outside of Jackson. Those wolves have killed way over your experts claim of 2-3 times a week, FACT!!

And the facts are the G&F or someone else is going to have to kill this pack or loose one of the best,most productive, elk herds utilized by local Jackson residents. FACT!!
 
From the Arizona forum:

"Latest update. Meeting went well, most all conservation groups, cattle groups, counties and AZGFD are in agreement. Waiting on approval from New Mexico to take this plan public. The intent is to keep the Feds away from our state's, let us draft and manage the wolf plan. Arizona elk society has really done a great job of trying to pull everyone together. Go to their website and volunteer to help, elk have the most to lose. Allen Taylor......"

Thanks to Allen and the Sportsmen's Constituent Group for keeping us up to date.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-14 AT 01:22PM (MST)[p]Right as usual...

Although Jackson Hole?s moose population has declined by perhaps 85 percent since the 1980s, habitat specialists and biologists are encouraged about the herd?s future.

For one, moose numbers appear to be on the rise. Wyoming Game and Fish Department biologist Aly Courtemanch, colleagues and volunteer citizen scientists counted 275 moose in the valley this winter, an increase of almost 40 animals from the year before.

The number takes into account observations from Moose Day volunteers, who on March 1 counted 74 moose.

?Our moose are pretty interesting this year,? Courtemanch said. ?We had a higher cow-calf ratio.?

The relative abundance of young moose in the Jackson herd ? 37 calves for every 100 cows ? is up considerably compared with recent years. The ratio is used as an indication of population growth.

There were just 15 calves for every 100 cows in the herd as recently as 2008, Courtemanch said.

By 2012 the cow-calf ratio grew to 24 per 100, before jumping to 33 per 100 last winter.

?It's been slowly chunking up every year,? she said. ?That's really promising. It kind of is a preliminary indication that the herd may be starting to rebound.?

Moose habitat in the valley also looks like it's in relatively good shape.

Brett Jesmer, a University of Wyoming zoology doctoral student, is undertaking a statewide moose habitat and health assessment to help Game and Fish predict where and when moose declines are likely to occur. Courtemanch is collaborating with Jesmer on the research.


In Jackson Hole, ?the willow habitat is as good or better than many of the other areas around the state,? Jesmer said Tuesday.

Results are preliminary, as moose scat analysis ? a portion of his multiyear assessment ? is still not complete, he said. Tests that would further gauge the health of valley?s willows were also forthcoming, he said.

?The goal is to develop some understanding of the interplay between climate, habitat and calf production,? Jesmer said.

Based on Courtemanch?s recent population assessment, moose are doing better in some areas where the species has struggled most.

The cow-calf ratios in the Buffalo Valley this year were 44 young for every 100 adult females. In the Gros Ventre drainage, the ratio was 33 calves for every 100 cows.

?Both areas looked good,? Courtemanch said. ?The Buffalo Valley?s population has definitely gone down the most. The Gros Ventre has also decreased, but not to the same extent.

?As you move further and further south, it gets increasingly better,? she said. ?But they were still in decline.?

Jackson?s moose population has proven cyclical over the years, as the large ungulate tends to exhaust its productive habitat when numbers are high.

Douglas Houston, a moose researcher in the valley in the 1960s, predicted that the population was going to decline based on poor habitat quality and overabundance, Jesmer said.

The warning proved correct. By the late 1980s ? before the transplant of gray wolves ? cow-calf ratios were dropping.

?Those calf-cow ratios that are now ticking back up, they started declining just before the 1988 Yellowstone fires,? Jesmer said,


Jesmer?s study also assesses the fat content of moose kidneys, donated by hunters, to determine animals? health. He will use the moose feces to determine what moose are eating, their diet quality and pregnancy rates.

Besides Jackson Hole, Jesmer is studying herds in the Wyoming Range, Uinta Mountains, Big Horn Mountains, the Snowy Range and Colorado?s North Park. He hopes to expand the research into Colorado?s Flat Top Wilderness.

Results from the project are expected to be published in peer-reviewed scientific journals in about a year and a half, Jesmer said.
 
Buzz,

Hey the moose guys have to find something positive to talk about. When you have lost 85 percent of your population, I can see where a few more would be exciting. Lets not forget, moose are still at ROCK BOTTOM!!!! A far cry from a recovery! If the counts are even accurate. We are having a whole different winter this year too! Loads of high country snow, moose are in the river bottoms way more.

Mtmuley...You are the FOOL if you think a pack of six wolves surplus killing on a feed ground in the last stronghold of quality elk hunting in Jackson is nothing to worry about. In an area that has a quota of 1 wolf. If the sportsman follow the rules this pack will destroy the herd, guaranteed. My bet, this packs days are numbered, if the WGF does not take 'em out, somebody else will...
 
Mtmuley,

You have the number to call...

Buzz,

You never answered the real difficult question, as always. If a pack of wolves is coming to a feed ground surplus killing, some times they kill 1, more often they kill multiple elk, one occasion these wolves killed 10 at a time, when is justified to kill off the entire pack? Or what should the local sportsman do to protect this herd? Remember these hunters are already killing the 1 legal wolf per regulation.

Should these hunters sit back and watch this herd go down in flames or what??? Help them out???
 
Without proof it didnt happen.

No reason to answer hypothetical questions based on bar talk.

Plus, if you had the ability to read sign, I've already answered it.
 
Buzz,

You did not let me down, I knew you would not answer the question. Oh, I read sign pretty good. It's really happening, the proof is stacking up every day. Call Tim...

PS I do not drink or go to bars, I am to busy living life to it's fullest, hunting wolves!!
 
Wyoming Hunters Enjoy Near Record Elk Harvest
3/24/2014

CHEYENNE - Hunters often talk about the good ol? days when it comes to their favorite fall ritual, but for elk hunters the good ol? days are now as revealed by recently completed Game and Fish harvest surveys.

For the second year in a row, Wyoming elk hunters had a banner year with the elk harvest for 2013 topping more than 25,000 animals. Estimated harvest was 25,968 elk for the year, surpassed only by the record 26,365 elk taken in 2012. By comparison, in 1995, elk harvest was 17,695 elk, more than 8,000 fewer than the Wyoming harvest of the past few years.

According to the Game and Fish harvest surveys, elk hunting in Wyoming is as good now and over the past five years as it has ever been. During that time period hunter success was consistently greater than 40 percent. Elk hunters experienced 45 percent success in 2013 and enjoyed more than 461,000 recreation days afield.

The increased harvest is a result of good habitat conditions resulting in increased population along with favorable hunting conditions. In addition the Wyoming Legislature and the Game and Fish Commission have given the Game and Fish tools to help with management and increasing hunter opportunity. An example is the change in statutes two years ago allowing the Commission to authorize the take of up to three elk per hunter in select areas. Additionally, the Commission has supported and provided funding for hunter access in key areas where the Department is addressing elk population above established management objectives.

?Increased elk harvest and hunter opportunity is a testament to how we can be effective in accomplishing both objectives when sportsmen, landowners, sporting organizations and the Game and Fish work together,? said chief game warden Brian Nesvik.

Nesvik said the Game and Fish is grateful to landowners who provide habitat for elk. ?Most elk herds in Wyoming rely on private lands to provide habitat for at least part of the year,? Nesvik said.

?Landowners providing hunting access are absolutely key to harvest success and managing elk herds. The Department and sportsmen appreciate landowners providing habitat for elk, ? Nesvik said.

Citing the contribution of sportsmen organizations, Nesvik said that the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) has raised more money for elk in Wyoming than in any other state for the past three years indicating people in Wyoming value their elk herds. In addition to providing hundreds of thousands of dollars for habitat work, the RMEF recently provided $45,000 for hunter access.

Wildlife managers continue to monitor the decrease in elk productivity and subsequent hunter opportunity in some areas of northwest Wyoming near Yellowstone National Park. Nesvik notes that while hunter success is high on a statewide basis, there continues to be elk herd units in the Jackson and Cody Regions where hunters are concerned about lower elk numbers and lower hunter success. The Department has documented lower calf productivity in many of these areas.

Hunters are encouraged to attend any of the many upcoming public meetings where proposals for 2014 seasons for elk and other big game species will be presented to the public. Meeting dates and locations can be found on the Game and Fish website wgfd.wyo.gov.





TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Buzz even proof will not change your outlook you have been BRAIN WASHED by feel good politics... and will never change... SO SAD.
The rest of us will continue to S.S.S.
 
"Wildlife managers continue to monitor the decrease in elk productivity and subsequent hunter opportunity in some areas of northwest Wyoming near Yellowstone National Park. Nesvik notes that while hunter success is high on a statewide basis, there continues to be elk herd units in the Jackson and Cody Regions where hunters are concerned about lower elk numbers and lower hunter success. The Department has documented lower calf productivity in many of these areas."

Must be bears.
 
Good chance it is bears...most of the wolf whiners never bother to buy a bear tag, much less shoot one.

The Bitterroot elk study is finding lions and bears are the leading cause of predation on elk calves.

Not sure why it would be any different in the Jackson/Cody areas.
 
Even better chance it's wolves and the peer review lies to go with them. Only a fool buy's into the experts slant of the truth...or needs a link to form an opinion on wolf predation and their effects. Peer reviewed science spends more time covering up the truth than bringing the truth to light.
 
Wolfhunter,

All I can tell you is that the area I hunt in NW Wyoming is crawling with bears.

In the last several years I've hunted it, its not uncommon on any given day...or trip, to see more black bears than deer.

Last fall I only had 2 days to hunt that area and saw 12 mule deer, 15 black bears, 4 bull moose, and 2 elk. Didnt hear any wolves, see any tracks, or any other wolf sign.

The second day I killed a good black bear...the 9th bear I'd seen by noon.

I recall a spring bear trip to the same area in 2010, a friend and I glassed 14 bears from a single glassing spot.
 
Same Sshiittt Happening here!

F'N Bears are doing all the Killing/Damage!

If You're seeing that many Bears BuzzH I'll admit there's too many!

But GEEZUS!

The Bears must be eating all the Calves!

Sounds like elkun could go on an UN-LIMITED Shootin Spree up there!









[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Did I mention I Just Wasted another 45 minutes of my Life Reading the same Ole BullSsshiit?

Once again!

Most people Blame one Animal/item for the Decline of Wildlife!

When TARDS become Smart enough to Realize it's TARDS Destroying every F'N thing on Mother Earth we might Fix a few Problems!

Anybody know how long that might take?







[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Is it possible that one reason the bears are doing so well is because of all the half eaten elk carcasses laying around?:)

Eel
 
Not So Eel!

Bears have changed their eating Habits & only Kill & Eat Fresh Meat!:D










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
That Pic looks as about as Phony as any I've ever seen!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Are they Eating a Condor?:D







[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
"Thorpe warned, however, that he has heard from a friend of his neighbor?s plumber that Mexican gray wolves are especially fond of chihuahuas and likely to linger in Flagstaff."

Doesn't get any better than that
 
http://wildlifeviews.azgfdportal.com/views_editions/wolfspecialissue/


MtMuley,

The meeting went pretty well with no body getting shot. There was mostly discussion on proposed wolf numbers in both states proposed in Terry Johnson, author of the proposed AZGFD Alternative to the new EIS plan for wolf expansion from south of I-40 to the Mexican border through all of NM and parts of AZ. He is taking comments on the plan until Friday and then he will come out with the document probably sometime in the next week or two. Apache County, AZ and all of NM our busy writing our own plans as we feel we are at capacity with the wolves we have now in the Primary Recovery Area in AZ and the Secondary Recovery Area in NM. We already have upward of sixty wolves here in the Secondary Recovery ARea and with our estimated elk herds the primary prey base for the wolves we are beyond capacity when the official figure is 3 wolves per 1000 elk.

Terry Johnson is retired from the AZGFD and is now a private consultant being paid by the AZGFD to write this proposal. Terry and the AZGFD have been working since 1978 to bring wolves into AZ as you can read in the above link. AZ has been working to get wolves back into AZ for many years. Terry has also been instrumental into getting Jaguar's into AZ and next will probably be the Ocelot.

The USFWS is we think, wanting from 900-1000 wolves in the expanded recovery area being proposed. This number of wolves will effectively take out much of our elk herds and will be a huge problem for livestock raisers.
 
Thanks stoney for the report. As much as you like to believe I am in favor of the wolves, I honestly wish the SW states weren't facing the wolf issue. mtmuley
 
My guess is that 900-1000 wolves are necessary to keep a genetically viable population. If you don't have enough elk to support that then you have a habitat problem. Too bad for you.

Eel
 
>My guess is that 900-1000 wolves
>are necessary to keep a
>genetically viable population. If you
>don't have enough elk to
>support that then you have
>a habitat problem. Too bad
>for you.
>
>Eel


***You have got to be chitting me with that foolish comment. I'm not aware of what the carrying capacity would be based on the habitat, but the Gila in NM going on over into the eastern half of AZ is about as good as it gets for elk and big bulls. The habitat in any particular area will support only so many animals of a species before both the habitat is degraded and the species begins to suffer. That is just an elementary school level principle of biology. If one group feels the area is approaching the maximum number where the elk herds will begin suffering too many loses and the other party possibly wants 10 times that many, it will be interesting to see what kind of a compromise, if any, can be reached. I think stoney will need as much help as he can get to accomplish his goal and using a little honey on these threads will do a lot more good than calling people greenies such as Big Fin, BuzzH, or any of the rest of us that are willing to help is not too smart ! Just my opinion and I hope the area we're talking about doesn't end up like what happened up north!
 
eelgrass,

There isnt going to be a genetic connectivity problem with these wolves. They wont every occupy the country clear to the Mexico border, there isnt enough prey base to allow it. I dont see wolves scratching a living in the desert on coues deer, jack rabbits, and javelina. Even if they could occupy that entire range, the numbers will be significantly less the further south you go.

Plus, you're dealing with an island population as it is, unlike the MT/ID/WY wolf recovery area. Pretty tough to NOT have connectivity when its an isolated population, and always will be.

What is more likely to be a problem is genetic exchange (rather than connectivity) and the need to augment the population from time to time to address that. I'd likely be concerned with that if I was part of the discussion as a stakeholder in AZ/NM...but thats just my opinion. At a minimum, I'd be asking questions about it.

I'd also really question the idea of wolves being able to exist as a population, very far south of the Mogollon Rim in AZ. If they're using all that country south of the rim, clear to Mexico, to come up with desired populations (1000ish), I'd have a field day with that logic.
 
Stoney posted - "The USFWS is we think, wanting from 900-1000 wolves in the expanded recovery area being proposed."

Stoney this is where you have to plant the stake in the ground, not only on the number, but on the defintion of "viable" versus "recovered," if that terminology is still open for debate and negotiation. The two terms are two vastly different in their scope, with huge differences in population objectives needed to accomplish one versus the other.

In the Northern Rockies, one of the first big bloody battles in the re-introduction agreement was whether we would try to achieve a "viable" population or a "recovered" populations.

We won that battle by saying "viable." Viable was deemed to be the maintenance of 150 wolves and 15 breeding pairs in each of MT/ID/WY.

Had the term been "recovered," odds are we would still be under Federal control, as "recovered" makes more reference to the historical range and historical population numbers.

When it was determined that the Northern Rockies would be an experimential and non-essential population with the objective to have a "viable" population, the pro-wolf crowd was livid. Since hunters knew we were getting wolves reintroduced, someday, somehow, for hunters to get the term "viable" used as the objective and the lower population objectives that came with that term, we considered it a victory for us.

I am sure the pro-wolf crowd remembers that battle in the Northern Rockies wolf debate, and that they are probably positioning themselves to not lose another fight over "terminology." Maybe the process is already too far along and the debate over terminology has already been settled.

The lesson of that small skirmish, and hopefully those representing AZ and NM hunters realize such, was how some of the nuances impact the final outcomes and how the small differences in terminology can be big differences when the final deals are negotiated and re-negotiated and re-re-negotiated.

Best of luck in your efforts.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
That tidbit of information is golden. Thanks Fin!

stoney - What is your take on what AZGFD is wanting as a population objective?

If the players in this negotiation move the population goal to too great a number, the next push will be to establish wolves north of the ditch and that will be a disaster beyond description. The elk in AZ & NM are already going to bear the brunt of predation by wolves. The deer in Northern Arizona and Southern Utah won't be able to tolerate another top end predator. We are lucky to have only lions and coyotes up there and don't need wolves or bears added into the environment.
 
stoney - That issue of Wildlife News was a good read. The article regarding the future of wolf recovery had an interesting statement. "Can Arizona support a population of 1,000 wolves? No." Coming from the Assistant Director for Wildlife Management and the Endangered Species Program Coordinator, that is at least encouraging that the wolf hippies won't be allowed to run wild.
 
One key element of the AZ/NM plan that is missing in this conversation is:
The population in AZ/NM is not to be the full recovery of the Mexican Gray Wolf. With 90% of the historic and still viable habitat being in Mexico we must form a partnership with Mexico so that they shoulder the brunt of numbers and are the significant area for recovery. AZ/NM populations will contribute to recovery. Forcing MGW into possible suitable habitat to force the recovery on the U.S. is not the best science. Mexico must be a big part of the plan and that is where the USFWS has really dropped the ball. Who knows why, we have many other agreements with Mexico on other species, why no push with the MGW.
 
Big Fin,

Thank you for the great information. I think we are still in the "never never land" of really determing what the USFWS wants. They have nothing in print or nothing set out in the public eye yet.

You are a true gentleman and hope I haven't offended you too bad on the MM topics.

I totally agree with you and will get this information to all of my contacts today.
 
Thanks everyone for all the good information,

As rthrbhntng said and is being discussed with many of us is that the USFWS is saying 90% of the habitat is in Mexico. Why should AZ and NM become the brunt of the program when most of the habitat north of the Mexican border has never been Mexican Gray Wolf habitat. They have put these wolves up into habitat that may have had wolves coming in from up north?

Dennis Parker and McBride were the two main biologists that spent a big part of their early careers studying wolves in Mexico and they were discounted and run off by the USFWs from the very start of the program because they had documentation and pictures of a few Mexican wolves straying north of the border. To acknowledge them the USFWS would have negated their desire to try and established the wolves up farther into NM and AZ. They also said that the USFWS used the wrong lineage of captive wolves from Mexico to start the program and used a wolves that is were proven to be a hybridized wolf.

The AZ alternative is calling for up to 300 wolves, up to 150 in AZ and 150 in NM.

We are already above capacity for our elk herds and livestock raisers using their formula of 3 wolves per 1000 elk. In NM we have 60+ wolves already and they are raising havoc on our livestock producers and making some big dents in our elk herds. 60 wolves eat a lot of meat. Catron County estimates that we have 12,000 elk and in the expanded recovery proposal Stuart Lilley (elk biologist) of the NMGFD estimates that there are between 25,000-32,000 elk. Using the 32,000 high number would mean 96 wolves in the expanded area.

There are many of working on an alternative for NM as we basically rejects the AZ alternative's call for 300 wolves. That means that the primary area they are proposing releasing more wolves is in the Secondary Recovery Area here in the Gila in NM. That and if AZ wants more wolves in the Primary Recovery Zone many of those wolves will be coming over into the Gila for more elk prey base.

Buzz, some good thoughts and I have to disagree a little bit on Mexican Gray Wolf habitat. Part of the expanded area AZ is proposing is the very SE corner of AZ below I-10 and includes the Peloncillos, Chiricahua Mtns. and the Huachucas and Mule Mtns. There are good numbers of Coues deer in those Mtns. and would support some wolves. These are also used occasionally by Jaguars.

Terry Johnson should have his AZGFD proposed alternative ready in a few days and it will very interesting to see the numbers they will be using. Apache County AZ and at least on County supervisor from Greenlee County (both are the counties in the Primary Recovery Zone) are in disagreement with what the AZGFD is proposing. They feel they are at capacity there also.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-14 AT 08:53AM (MST)[p]Hey Buzz,

The wolves in Jackson Hole are really beating up your wolf experts AGAIN & STILL... They are killing on average of 4-5 elk a night when they visit the feed ground. One night they killed 8... Now they are even killing the big bulls that have shedded their antlers. Do you think it might be time for a patriot to step in???

I think you might owe me an apology!!! I was right about your lying wolf experts all along....
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-14 AT 09:23AM (MST)[p]>Hey Buzz,
>
>The wolves in Jackson Hole are
>really beating up your wolf
>experts AGAIN & STILL...
>They are killing on average
>of 4-5 elk a night
>when they visit the feed
>ground. One night they
>killed 8... Now they are
>even killing the big bulls
>that have shedded their antlers.
> Do you think it
>might be time for a
>patriot to step in???
>
>I think you might owe me
>an apology!!! I was
>right about your lying wolf
>experts all along....


***Why don't you quit being such a spineless SOB and activate your profile so people can send you a PM or email and not have to waste time on the threads that you keep coming on and contaminating with your BS!!! Go do your SSS wolf killing Mr. Patriot, LOL, as that's what you seem to be espousing every time you make a post and let us the he** alone!!!
 
I think it is extremely important for people to hear the real truth about wolves, it does not matter if wolves are from Mexico or Canada the problem is the same. The experts lie through their teeth about the REAL impacts on our game herds. This wolf pack in JH has killed 20 plus elk this week, the wolves are eating less the 1 percent of the animals killed. This is REAL... Then guys like Buzz H, 4100fps, Mtmuley will come on this thread and claim wolves do not do this type of killing and perpetuate the lie... discredit the truth. This is the truth that never makes it into to the news! There is another pack doing the same killing in the Gros Ventre area too.FACT!!


WOLVES KILL WAY MORE THAN 2-3 TIMES A WEEK....FACT!!! PROVEN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!! WOLVES DO NOT JUST KILL THE OLD AND WEAK!!!!
 
>I think it is extremely important
>for people to hear the
>real truth about wolves, it
>does not matter if wolves
>are from Mexico or Canada
>the problem is the same.
> The experts lie through
>their teeth about the REAL
>impacts on our game herds.
> This wolf pack in
>JH has killed 20 plus
>elk this week, the wolves
>are eating less the 1
>percent of the animals killed.
> This is REAL... Then
>guys like Buzz H, 4100fps,
>Mtmuley will come on this
>thread and claim wolves do
>not do this type of
>killing and perpetuate the lie...
>discredit the truth. This
>is the truth that never
>makes it into to the
>news! There is another
>pack doing the same killing
>in the Gros Ventre area
>too.FACT!!
>
>
>WOLVES KILL WAY MORE THAN 2-3
>TIMES A WEEK....FACT!!! PROVEN
>AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!
> WOLVES DO NOT JUST
>KILL THE OLD AND WEAK!!!!
>


***Why don't you not only do what I asked, but also start your own thread to keep everyone updated on all the elk kills and, yes, we know they kill more than the old and weak.
 
Wolf hunter: thanks for the updates. I made the phone call for wolf loving Buzz H...and it's true. So Buzz, make the call or maybe you can't handle the truth? Your post are so arrogant and reminds me of many bully Govt workers in high places! Make the CALL!
 
I spoke to a local warden that is just a little south of there today. His comments were "It's getting concerning".

I rarely post on these topics, but something is happening up there that nobody seems to want to talk about.

He didn't think bears were involved.
 

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