More Huntin'Fool BS---

PleaseDear

PleaseDear

Long Time Member
Messages
10,438
Do they NOT sell mag's for Odd's updates?

Ask 'em about their very own Raffle Rip Off-----Odd's

And I got this in return---

NO I did NOT go for a renewal as I bailed back in 2008---

Would this motivate any of you guys for $200??






"Hello Robert,



We do not have the odds for the raffle. We don't have the man power to physically count all of the tickets daily. If you would like to come in and take a look in the ticket boxes, you are more than welcome to come and do so.



Thanks,




Huntin? Fool Updates

Huntin? Fool
PO Box 250, Cedar City, UT 84721

P: (435) 865-1020 | F: (435) 865-1090"

_____________________________________________________

So very sad----

Robb
 
Up until this year, it was open to the general public so they had to have a free entry method. I note that it is "members only" now and can't find the free entry method anymore. You know they make plenty of money on it, or they wouldn't have it, twice a year. I'm sure they know how much money comes in...
 
Buyer beware when is not a transparent process that ensures all the entries make it into the hopper, only the entries that should be in the hopper are in the hopper and that the drawing itself is random and monitored.

I go to a lot of trade shows where a booth will gather business cards to do a drawing. Shenanigans have been known to occur there. Palmed cards. Toss out cards prior to the drawing so only customers are left in the hat, etc.

If I am putting my company's reputation and integrity on the line with a raffle then an independent 3rd party is holding the raffle and none of my employees get within 100 feet of the hopper until the drawing is done.

Transparent is good. Trust but verify as Ronnie used to say.

Your mileage may vary.
 
I assume they're reluctant to share odds because it would reveal their bottom line profit. It's a safe assumption they're making money on them, otherwise they'd have stopped doing the raffles long ago.
 
Now NMPaul---

There is a big difference between crying----and sharing a heads-up Facts.....in black and white.....from the source.

Thanks for your input.

Robb
 
I have never gone into any raffle thinking I am going to win something.
I do not buy lottery tickets either.

They are a business, their ultimate goal should be to make a profit.
If you dont want to play the raffle game, dont do it.

Now if you told me nobody wins and there are no hunts that would be a different matter.
 
My ex wife's brother in-law managed a tire store in Washington. They had a hog and the person that guessed closest to his weight would win the porker. Well Bobby shared with me that he told a friend and they shared the meat. I wonder how often that happens.
 
If I don't want to see a movie, I don't go to the theater.

If I don't like a magazine, I don't subscribe.

Pretty simple.
 
"I have never gone into any raffle thinking I am going to win something"

Money well spent my man----happy for ya....


Robb
 
I was a member back in 2000 2001 when it was good. Later on after following the recommended hunts in Nevada and then checking where they put in Nevada I dropped them. JB
 
>"I have never gone into any
>raffle thinking I am going
>to win something"
>
>Money well spent my man----happy for
>ya....
>
>
>Robb
Sorry Robb, I was a little harsh. Just don't understand the negative stuff with HF.

I think people have a hard time with someone making a living with hunting. As a small business owner, I am impressed with what they have done over 10-15 years. They pioneered a lot of stuff in the business. If people don't like them, don't use them.
 
jb148 you are spot on. that is the exact reason I give my membership up after 12 years . they are phony!!!!
 
I don't subscribe to any magazines. They all have the same article time after time. How to hunt big deer, how to do this. Well I find the info stinks cause they are hunting eastern deer.

I noticed the tines up/trophy hunter magazine and what a joke. They keep showing that fire bull time after time. They keep bringing up everywhere, well now they overplayed it and I don't care for it all. The articles are just a copycat of other magazines..

So the only magazine I get now is the NRA since im a member. And after the last 10 years its a repeat repeat repeat.

That is where I stand in my personal opinion..
 
Got a postcard from some bowhunting magazine the other day. Offered a years subscription for $15. Just tossed it. I get only the ones that come with memberships like NRA and bugle. Magazines in general have to be hurting since the internet

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
This year I identified two major errors in their published info, both of which directly affect the foundation of my application strategy. One I was able to correct in time, the other no, but am educated for next year.

I actually called them to inform them of one error, which went nowhere. So I'll be using both these to my advantage going forward. Regardless it's worth it to me to subscribe so I can keep tabs where they steer the cattle, as well as regulation changes, correct or incorrect. I can use both to my advantage.

As to their raffle tickets........no way I'd ever touch that. I only apply for lotteries with good ROI's. Lack of transparency is a 100% deal breaker for me.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
A big part of raffles is the feel good part about helping a good cause. This raffle doesn't give that. I'm thinking I need my limited fun money more than Garth needs it for more hunting :)
 
I am a member, but have never applied for one of their raffles. There is a decent thread/debate in the huntin fool forums over this exact issue. I and a few others have basically said we would never apply for the raffle if they don't post the odds.... but the majority of the folks on the thread don't want the transparency and have asked hunting fool to NOT post the odds... go figure.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-25-14 AT 11:58AM (MST)[p]Everybody can spend their money any way they want. For me, every conceivable line of logic dictates spending it elsewhere. These raffles, like casino games, target the mathematically challenged. All the hunts they raffle can be purchased at will on the open market. If we assume HF is making a profit on these raffle hunts, then by definition the long term average cost for participants exceeds the cost of simply buying the hunt outright. On average, if you play long enough to win, you'll have to spend more than the hunt costs. Casinos work the same way. Everyone thinks they can beat the long-term odds. But the house sets the rules of play to insure that cannot happen.

If I'm achin' to gamble, I'll do my gambling on a state Super Hunt raffle or Governor's Tag type raffle. At least the proceeds go to conservation.

But if I want to hunt Dall's Sheep in the NWT, there's no way in hades I'd try to win it in a private, for-profit raffle. I'll simply buy that hunt directly from the outfitter of my choice, and schedule it for the year and date I need.
 
I think most are missing Robb's point. He simply asked a company that 'specializes' in calculating odds (for right or wrong) and received what I perceive as a pretty smart a$$ response.

So, correct me if I'm wrong guys, but that's my take and if I'm right, than it speaks volumes about the current state of the company. IMO
 
>I think most are missing Robb's
>point. He simply asked
>a company that 'specializes' in
>calculating odds (for right or
>wrong) and received what I
>perceive as a pretty smart
>a$$ response.
>
>So, correct me if I'm wrong
>guys, but that's my take
>and if I'm right, than
>it speaks volumes about the
>current state of the company.
> IMO


***Ditto what Bill said! IMHO if they can't give those odds and reply with a very smart azz comment back to Robb like they did, then screw them!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-25-14 AT 02:54PM (MST)[p]......on top of which I would also have a hard time believing they are not liars too. In circa 1995 it would be plausible to assume the only method to glean such statistics would be tedious man hours sorting through sheet metal file cabinets then having men wearing green visors crunch the numbers. 2014 they are either liars or have a really $hitty business model if they can't pull simple odds with the click of a mouse. They must really think their clientele are huntin' "fools.". For $200.00 I would have to agree.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
>I think most are missing Robb's
>point. He simply asked
>a company that 'specializes' in
>calculating odds (for right or
>wrong) and received what I
>perceive as a pretty smart
>a$$ response.
>
>So, correct me if I'm wrong
>guys, but that's my take
>and if I'm right, than
>it speaks volumes about the
>current state of the company.
> IMO
Correct!

flyingbrass
cold dead hands
NRA Life Member
 
It's kinda funny. HF has new ownership, all new consultants, and the first thing they do is double the price of membership. Then they turn all the landowner tags into highest bidder. If you don't think HF is greedy and ALL about the MONEY, you are blind!!!
 
I used to be a big fan. Even had my mug on one of their covers.
But as Robb, one-dry, and others have pointed out...times have changed, and not for the good, IMO.
They saw my last C-Note some time ago.
Kind of sad.
 
I never used the consultants in the first place, but getting the list of previous tag holders has been worth the money IMO. I have met and talked to a few good people that way... not that you cant do the same here at MM or other places. If they took that away, I would bail real quick.
 
Please dear I just sent this email to HF
Hi my name is Joe, I was just reading on Monster Muley's that a person wrote to you and asked for the raffle odds and someone wrote him back and said "we don't have the man power to count all the raffle tickets that come in, but your more than welcome to come in and count them yourself"? Isn't one of your services calculating drawing odds? But you don't know how many tickets you sold?
Wow Not Good!
Do you use a independent company to over see the raffle?

Thanks for your time.
Joe E Sikora
618-779-9165
P.S. I included my name and contact info because I'm the type of person if I talk it, I walk it, not hide in the shadows of the internet.

Thanks for the post Robb

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you think their right"

-Joe E Sikora
 
Good for you Joe.

What kinda thru me off was that they still had my Email and where trying to get me to re-up my subscription after being gone since 2008.....

Confusing marketing if ya ask me....

Robb
 
.45 hit the nail on the head, it should be a click and here is the information you are looking for.
Seems fishy as hell not knowing the amount of tickets you sell or have sold.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Thanks for posting this Robb.
I will not do business with people that treat customer this way.
This is a good heads up.
Thanks
 
Hey guys,
I would like to throw out a few things to you that might help you in all the confusion that is apparent here on this thread.
First off, I'm Travis Roundy and I'm one of the owners of Huntin' Fool, as well as one of the HF hunting consultants.

Huntin' Fool has changed hands in ownership, and Garth is retired and gone from the company, just so that is clear.

We follow state law with the membership drive giveaway, and nothing has changed in how or who may enter the drawings for the hunts.

We have debated over whether to publish the odds for the giveaway for months, and through a discussion on our forum among the members, the majority asked that the odds not be published. We as a company are trying to listen to our members and provide the type of service they want.

If any of you are interested in coming in to the office, we have the ticket boxes available for public viewing, and we also encourage anyone, member of HF or not to come to the drawing and participate. We are honorable human beings and would be happy to have more witnesses there to validate the fact that we run a fair and honest drawing. In fact, if you don't have a ticket in the barrel, you will probably get a chance to reach in and draw out a hunt or two for a lucky winner while you are there.

We continue to offer the hunts in our giveaway because of the popularity of it as witnessed by our members participation. We continue to add hunts, and even offer hunts that are not available to most people due to their financial status. This year we are offering a Henry Mountains Mule Deer hunt that is out of sight for most of us. It cost us a lot of money, and I don't know many people or companies that would even consider dropping close to a hundred grand on a voucher and then putting it in a giveaway to it's members. We felt like it was a cool thing to do, and I'm sure someone is going to be happy we did. We also offer hunts that are not available in state drawings, like Stone Sheep, and Mexico Mule Deer to give people a crack at something they most likely will never do because of the cost of the hunts.

We have added several new consultants to the Hunting consultant dept to serve the members and cut down on call hold times. We were fielding lots of chit chat type calls, and the consulting dept was not profitable, so we opted to keep all members at the $100 per year price and add the consulting option for the extra $100 if a member needed or wanted it. Many members are using the consulting option and enjoying the extra time they get on the phone with the consultants now that there are enough there to handle the calls at peak times. Many members opt to stay at $100 which is the same price this service has been since 1995.

We are not just another magazine, and if you really take a comprehensive look at all the services HF offers, you will see that the $100 price tag is a bargain. Less than a tank of gas on a full size truck.

12 issues of HF magazine with research and statistics, including information from some of the top hunters in the west on where to find a great hunt that fits your needs and your budget.

Member draw list. Members can call in and receive a list of members including phone numbers, who have previously drawn the unit you drew out for. This service alone will save you some scouting time and put you in the right area in a unit you haven't hunted before.

Interactive odds calculator on the website. This is my favorite. I can find hunts all over the west that I can draw by using this calculator.

HF will provide you with recommendations for our endorsed outfitters at no charge to you. We help our members book hundreds and hundreds of successful hunts each year. No charge to the member.

We operate an application service to help those who don't have time, or who don't want to do their own applications. This is a big hit with the members and we consistently help our members draw a big percentage of tags in the west. As part of this service members may speak with a hunt consultant to go over the areas and units that you are considering. A great way to get in on top hunting areas.

We are also adding new ideas and innovations to the business continuously to improve the member experience. Our goal is to help every one of our members to achieve the hunting success that they desire. We are good people that love the outdoors and we are thankful that we can work in the hunting industry and work with and around good people from all around the globe.

I'm sure that there have been people that have been offended, or had a bad experience with any company out there, and HF is not exempt from that. We have a new perspective on this business, and we are trying to be innovative, and progressive, as well as service oriented to give the member the best bang for the buck.

I don't spend much time here on Monster Muleys anymore due to my obligations at work, and with our own HF forum, but I thought this may be of some value for those of you in this debate.

Best of luck in the draws, and on your upcoming hunts!
Travis Roundy
Huntin' Fool
 
I belong to quite a few of these hunting discussion forums and for years participated in countless discussions about hunting draws, raffles, lotteries, and etc. Never in that time did I hear someone say they "don't want to know" the odds of drawing a tag/hunt that they're spending money on. Now we learn that the "majority" of HF members don't want that kind of information....truly astounding! Thank you for sharing. I'll log that nugget into my "credibility files".
 
>I belong to quite a few
>of these hunting discussion forums
>and for years participated in
>countless discussions about hunting draws,
>raffles, lotteries, and etc. Never
>in that time did I
>hear someone say they "don't
>want to know" the odds
>of drawing a tag/hunt that
>they're spending money on. Now
>we learn that the "majority"
>of HF members don't want
>that kind of information....truly astounding!
>Thank you for sharing. I'll
>log that nugget into my
>"credibility files".


See post 23, where I say basically the same thing. I wanted draw odds, and even said I would never buy a ticket without the odds posted.

However, Travis is right.... most of the members in that discussion did NOT want odds posted. If I were running a business, I would listen to my customers... so I dont blame HF even though I dont agree with it.
 
I am a member and I always want to know the odds on any drawing I participate in or think about participating in! It is very hard for me to believe that most others don't!
 
>I am a member and I
>always want to know the
>odds on any drawing I
>participate in or think about
>participating in! It is very
>hard for me to believe
>that most others don't!


I agree with you. Did you speak up and voice that opinion in the forum?
 
Common sense usually prevails when it comes to draw odds. If a drawing were for a jacket rabbit hunt in Nevada, odds are going to be pretty good. Raffle tickets for a Henry Mountains deer tag will probably be pretty slim. The chance to get my name in the hat for a hunt I may never draw in my lifetime, is worth it to me. May not be worth it for others. No one is twisting arms here. It's a matter of personal choice. One thing is for sure. One lucky hunter will be chasing big muleys on the Henry's this fall.
 
Thanks for the insight and update on things Travis. I'm sure many here were not aware of things going on there. I don't agree with everything the Fool does but overall it's a good value for the money spent.
 
Cat
Oh she found out about it alright and hasn't been the same since. Now she asks to be left at the local Conoco
 
First and foremost I want to say Sorry to Brian/Founder as I didn't realize Travis Roundy/Huntin' Fool would use this as more excuses for free advertising.....like he did on an earlier M&M thread about the $200 $cam membership.....

________________________________________________________

Simply a few quick questions Travis Roundy----

How many Members do you have in the new $200 Membership Fee that voted 'We Do Not Want To Know" on your HF Blog about the Raffle Draw Odd's ???

How many actual HF voting/blog members do you have?? That do indeed Post-----

What are the 'Odd's %'s of actual HF Voting members? vs those that have the time to blog/post and vote?? ( ya know like 15043 actual members vs 168 repeat actual HF site bloggers)



Thanks for your time----


Robb

PS. I need a Mulligan before we chit chat about that arrogant/ignorant Email response to my Raffle Odd's response---fair enough?
 
Did HF ever advertise that they would publish the odds of the raffle? I doubt that they did. Can a member get the odds? I can see where members would not want odds posted if the odds are better than most would think. Secondly, where can I purchase some Henry Mtns opportunity tickets?

Maybe because I have a business background, but it seems that pleasedear has a real hardon with HF. Is there something else that they did to piss you off! Just curious.
 
you guys crack me up! no body has stated you have to join so if you don't want to, don't. I actually could care less about the draw odds, pretty much like the score of the animal. As long as the hunter is satisfied who cares? I belong to HF and enjoy the hell out of the magazine plus the opportunity to get into a drawing for some great hunts. As far as Travis goes he is a straight up kind of guy and a great taxidermist. Besides,I bet the odds are better in the HF hunts, than getting pulled for a top Nevada hunt!

Magnum
 
I am lost. how does he get a heny mtns , tag, and how can he raffle it out of utah,,,,???
 
Please Dear, WTF is your problem? Did you not draw a coveted tag in some western state? Obviously you are about ready to start your period. Really. Evidently you don't believe in Capitalism. So why don't you move to France where you can cry to a bunch of pussies like you.
 
I agree with ELKUN, where did the Henry's tag
Come from?? Did the HF Corporation buy it
And now wishes to transfer it??

Ha Ha, we've now got Corps. buying and transferring
Wealth tags.

We are so f$&@/d in this state.
What's next the Zion's Bank AI raffle??



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
I just looked at the website. The claim of better odds than the state draws is no longer there. A 1099 for $130K? Wow! Still costs %40K if you win! At least a tag in a fundraiser is only a 1099 for the face value of a tag if it goes over the limit, maybe add the guide value if guided. It is a business and they do have to pay the loan to buy it from the previous owner... I get that. But no thank you!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-28-14 AT 07:13PM (MST)[p]I don't care about draw odds for raffle tags if the majority of the money was earmarked for conservation of that species.

I also understand that businesses like the "Fool" are not non-profits. But, offering up the opportunity to come look at there raffle box as gesture of good faith is a joke and a slap in Robb's face.
 
Butch, Prickle and Serena??
New forum members??

Welcome Butch
Welcome Prickle
Welcome Serena

Can any of you tell me your spots on the Wasatch
For 400" bulls?? Drew a tag with 2 points and I've
Never been on the unit. Thanks in advance.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Wiley
3rd canyon on left after you park has huge bulls behind every tree. LOL
This off season is getting a little testy. LOL
Waiting on Dove season.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Park!!! I can't shoot from the truck??

I'm turning the tag back in. This unit is all
Shot out.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
PleaseDeer,

I've had no interaction with Hunting Fool one way or the other. I have no direct experience with them to base an opinion; however, doesn't the name say it all?
 
>I just looked at the website.
>The claim of better odds
>than the state draws is
>no longer there. A 1099
>for $130K? Wow! Still costs
>%40K if you win! At
>least a tag in a
>fundraiser is only a 1099
>for the face value of
>a tag if it goes
>over the limit, maybe add
>the guide value if guided.
>It is a business and
>they do have to pay
>the loan to buy it
>from the previous owner... I
>get that. But no thank
>you!
I emailed them asking about the tax and they emailed me back with no taxes on the hunts.
 
Quoting 264mag: "I emailed them asking about the tax and they emailed me back with no taxes on the hunts."

Maybe not sales tax. But if you win something of value it'll be considered taxable income for state and federal income tax purposes. The taxable amount will be based on the fair market value of the item you won. Let's say you win a NWT Dall Sheep hunt for example.....then you'll be subject to income tax on about 20,000.00 in the year you receive it.
 
Couple interesting things about the huntin fool.

1) They listed 87 deer in Wyoming as one of the best units, knowing non-residents are the majority of their users. Wyoming ended up issuing 0 tags for non-residents in that unit. Check the odds, its there 0 tags. Lol.

2) I recently called and spoke with one of the secretaries who said they had such an overwhelming response they have been swamped with orders and are weeks behind. That should tell you what your odds will be if you purchase tickets....slim, probably about as good as the expo.
 
>Couple interesting things about the huntin
>fool.
>
>1) They listed 87 deer
>in Wyoming as one of
>the best units, knowing non-residents
>are the majority of their
>users. Wyoming ended up
>issuing 0 tags for non-residents
>in that unit. Check
>the odds, its there 0
>tags. Lol.
>
>2) I recently called and spoke
>with one of the secretaries
>who said they had such
>an overwhelming response they have
>been swamped with orders and
>are weeks behind. That
>should tell you what your
>odds will be if you
>purchase tickets....slim, probably about as
>good as the expo.


***In all fairness to the HF, the G&F was supposed to issue 25 total tags for unit 87 and for some reason only issued 9 to residents and none to NRs. That may have been another screwup because there is a big one right now on the draw for resident unit 7 bull tags. They have issued almost 1000 too many "successfuls" for the unit and are now in the process of notifying all of those people that they goofed and will not be sending them a tag. Anyone who got a successful in 7 today better not count on it for a day or two yet until the G&F notifications are completed even if you logged onto your account today and it says you drew that tag!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-14 AT 11:37AM (MST)[p]topgun,

I think there were 25 issued in unit 87. I've went back to 2010, and from what I can find, there has been enough landowner tags issued to account for the "missing" 16 tags in unit 87. Its tough to track landowner tags, but if you total all the regular applicants and compare to the quota, that would be the landowner portion.

I also recall reading somewhere that at least 10 resident tags need to be issued before a NR can draw.

I think I'm going to raise he.ll about the landowner tags not being listed in the draw odds.

As you know, landowners could potentially draw every LQ tag in the state of Wyoming via statute.
 
Regarding the taxes - I think the way it works - HF donates $xx.xx dollars to a charitable, non-profit and in return they are given the voucher to hunt. When you receive the voucher to hunt, all you'd be liable for is the license cost and the tax on it. If it's under $600 value (the license cost) you wouldn't even get a 1099 on it. I may be wrong, but I think they would at least address the potential tax liability in the fine print if it was going to be an issue.
 
You lost me there.

What non-profits?

And what does a not-for-profit organization have to do with Huntin Fool buying hunts from outfitters for their raffles?

Are outfitters donating all of these hunts to HF? That's interesting because Garth was always rambling on in the magazine about purchasing the hunts years in advance.
 
>You lost me there.
>
>What non-profits?
>
>And what does a not-for-profit organization
>have to do with Huntin
>Fool buying hunts from outfitters
>for their raffles?
>
>Are outfitters donating all of these
>hunts to HF? That's interesting
>because Garth was always rambling
>on in the magazine about
>purchasing the hunts years in
>advance.

HF buys the Henry's Tag from a non-profit at a banquet or expo (such as MDF or SFW) and then transfers it to the lucky winner. This is different than the other guided hunts for which they pay fair price to the outfitter guaranteeing the winner a full-quality experience.

At least that is how I understand it.

Grizzly
 
The NR draw reports will have had the NR LO tags removed from the quota before the report has been run, since those tags are not in the NR draw. Those draw reports are just a snapshot in time, for a process that has multiple steps before and after, that section of the draw. More "complete" reports could be made but currently you need to use some unpublished reports to see what's going on.
You should be able to get a balance report for Deer that will show the LO tags drawn on a NR LO PP/NR LO Random draw, per hunt code basis. I do that for Elk and suspect they have a similar report for Deer.
 
What about resident landowners?

More of them than NR landowners.

I'm going to get the LO draw list...one way or another.
 
> Besides,I bet the odds
>are better in the HF
>hunts, than getting pulled for
>a top Nevada hunt!
>
>Magnum


Really doubt that. I have seen plenty of folks draw good tags their first or second years, some multiple years in a row.
 

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