Mule deer potential

[punchy]

I got thinking and was wondering how many bucks would be 180”+ if they were given the chance to mature. Depending on the area and genetics will some deer only get 165”.
What do you guys think?

 

[elkassassin]

That's A BIG If That Usually Doesn't Happen!

Gonna Take Some Of Both To Reach Potential!

Yes!

Some will only Ever Be 165"!

And In Today's World That Usually Ain't Gonna Be Happening From Bucks Living Long Enough To Regress!

 

[Soj51hopeful]

I wonder how many would even make 165”.

 

[Wyo_Roadhunter]

Have watched a lot of bucks every year that never made the 180" mark. Have some sheds off bucks that you would think would explode that in 4 years was only 3" different from 181 to 184. I shot a buck a few years ago that I had been watching. The biggest he was up until I shot him I guessed around 160 and the year I shot him he grossed 181 and the biologist guessed him at 8 or 9 years old so why he blew up at that age who knows. In my opinion it's almost impossible to decide what a deer will turn into.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

I don't think all of them would even hit 165 if they were allowed to grow old. I think even 170 takes good genetics and age. I think 180 takes really good genetics and age. 200 takes exceptional genetics and age. Of course nutrition plays a big role in all of that too.

 

[Sparks Shooter]

I think a mule deer making 180" is about as likely as a human playing D1 college football. 200" is like making an NFL roster. It takes a whole lot of genetics, nutrition, and the perfect set of circumstances to all come together. Most mule deer bucks will max out well below any of these numerical standards. All that aside, I do think every buck that reaches maturity will be 'big' in one way or another. ------SS

 

[bighamr]

It makes ya think of the bucks in the areas that do get the age, AI, Henries, the strip etc. I don’t know but I’m sure someone on here does, what’s the percentage of 180 bucks out of all the bucks in those units where they get the chance for some age? We all see the top end bucks of these areas but what’s the average for the older bucks.

 

[SS!]

Someone once told me a spike or fork horn buck never grows up to be a big buck. The more I see the max growth some of these big deer put on year to year by comparing their sheds I would have to agree with him.

 

[GLEDEASY]

A study was done on more than 4500 deer between 5 western states. The average deer only reached 171" and required to get to 6 years of age to reach that avg.

 

[jims]

Colorado is a PRIME example of what happens if bucks are given the opportunity to age!

Take a look at how many B&C listings were from Colorado prior to converting from OTC tags to all limited draw tags. Colorado was known as the mecca for monster muley bucks, re-writing the B&C books with 180+ bucks in the 1980's through the years the CPW limited tags.

Look at how many 180+ B&C listings there are the last 5 years since the CPW incorporated a dramatic increase in deer tags with late rifle rut season dates to put more pressure on older age class bucks.

It is truly sad to see the decline of mule deer population and quality of bucks across the entire state of Colorado with the increase in tags. This also sets back the genetics of the older age class bucks with 225F alleles that are resistant to CWD.

 

[SS!]

A study was done on more than 4500 deer between 5 western states. The average deer only reached 171" and required to get to 6 years of age to reach that avg.

Link to study?

 

[elkassassin]

And In Todays World How Many Make Age 6 Percentage wise?

Link to study?

 

[GLEDEASY]

Link to study?

Long-Lasting Effects of Maternal Condition in Free-Ranging Cervids

Causes of phenotypic variation are fundamental to evolutionary ecology because they influence the traits acted upon by natural selection. One such cause of phenotypic variation is a maternal effect, which is the influence of the environment experienced ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'll say I have not actually read the study to see the used methods etc.

Here is the chart I based my post off of. It shows both elk and deer.

 

[SS!]

Long-Lasting Effects of Maternal Condition in Free-Ranging Cervids

Causes of phenotypic variation are fundamental to evolutionary ecology because they influence the traits acted upon by natural selection. One such cause of phenotypic variation is a maternal effect, which is the influence of the environment experienced ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'll say I have not actually read the study to see the used methods etc.

Here is the chart I based my post off of. It shows both elk and deer.
View attachment 139945

Thanks!

 

[SS!]

And In Todays World How Many Make Age 6 Percentage wise?

Great question. Not sure to be honest

 

[GLEDEASY]

And In Todays World How Many Make Age 6 Percentage wise?

Looking at their sample sizes across ages, I would say the avg was 5 years old

 

[littlebighorn]

One would think that having the right genetic pool is key with horn growth, much like humans with how tall we get.
If the average human is 6 feet tall and equates to 165" mule deer horns, and the percentage of 6'6" humans equals say 180", then 7 foot humans might equate to 240"ers?
That said, if you pair a bunch of tall people with tall genes together, you get more tall people...as long as they don't die as teenagers.
I know in Utah, moving a bunch of AI genes to the Oak Creeks certainly seemed to help antler growth there.

I too, would love to get a link to the study.

 

[2lumpy]

I got thinking and was wondering how many bucks would be 180”+ if they were given the chance to mature. Depending on the area and genetics will some deer only get 165”.
What do you guys think?

littlebighorn took the words out of my mouth.

There are some micro locations where you can go see what it would look like. If you live within reasonable driving distance from Salt Lake City, next November, drive out to
Antelope Island and do some serious hiking. You will see a microcosm of mule deer, from yearling to fully mature, with only 2 deer per year, killed by sport hunting.

Like humans, only a small percentage are 6’5” tall and built like J. J. Watts.

Regarding yearlings that are spikes and two points. Mississippi State Univ. has done a lot of studies on antler growth, on whitetail deer and a Scientist named Dr. Mel Jacobsen has written the results of numerous studies on that specific subject. They were done in the 1980/90 so I’m not sure if they would still be available on the internet or not.

Genes, habitat nutrients, and age are key components, it takes a large portion of all three for large antlers.

 

[Sparks Shooter]

If I was a genetic equivalent mule deer, I’d probably never break 160”. People would call me a dink or say I need another year. .——SS

 

[Downrange]

All I can say is there is no replacement for age. 5 to 8 years old seems to be the magic spot to produce big deer.

 

[grosventrehunter]

Drought and feed play a huge roll in allowing a buck to reach it's full potential. It always amazes me to see big deer when there is plenty of water and feed and then again in drought years.

 

[jims]

Age, genes, and nutrition are all definitely important. It seems like kids these days grow up lot taller than their parents. I would likely attribute that to diet. It's a pretty well known fact that healthy does produce strong healthy, resilient fawns.

With that said, I would say that bucks born on the jicarilla, henry mtns, Antelope Island, Eagle County and Gunnison Counties Colo, Saskatchewan, etc will likely have a pretty good chance to go 180+ if given the chance to live to 6 to 7 years of age. Given several years with good nutrition and favorable weather in those same places will benefit their head gear even more.

 

[BradA]

Link to study?

GoHUNT just posted a great podcast to listen to explain the study it’s definitely recommended and worth your time

 

[Mallardsx2]

GoHUNT just posted a great podcast to listen to explain the study it’s definitely recommended and worth your time

I listened to this today. This guy gets it. Worth a listen to for sure. Basically, everything common sense people have known for years. Predators (all) are major problem.

I will comment Utah for actually trying to see what the problem is. That more than can be said for a lot of western states.

What Brock was saying about dominant lions controlling the population of lions was the EXACTLY the same thing that Ontario found out about killing adult male black bears. The discovered that my killing more dominant boars that the population increase dramatically.

 

[BradA]

I listened to this today. This guy gets it. Worth a listen to for sure. Basically, everything common sense people have known for years. Predators (all) are major problem.

I will comment Utah for actually trying to see what the problem is. That more than can be said for a lot of western states.

What Brock was saying about dominant lions controlling the population of lions was the EXACTLY the same thing that Ontario found out about killing adult male black bears. The discovered that my killing more dominant boars that the population increase dramatically.

Pretty crazy and so difficult to balance it all, honestly not sure that a department/state can balance and control it.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Pretty crazy and so difficult to balance it all, honestly not sure that a department/state can balance and control it.

I agree.

 

[SS!]

I listened to this today. This guy gets it. Worth a listen to for sure. Basically, everything common sense people have known for years. Predators (all) are major problem.

I will comment Utah for actually trying to see what the problem is. That more than can be said for a lot of western states.

What Brock was saying about dominant lions controlling the population of lions was the EXACTLY the same thing that Ontario found out about killing adult male black bears. The discovered that my killing more dominant boars that the population increase dramatically.

Agree, I’ve seen a dominant bull moose push every bull out of a valley during the winter. He wants the best browse out there. Once he dies you see a bunch move in until one gets really big again. Same with bears and I’ve heard the lion one before

 

[Homer]

A study was done on more than 4500 deer between 5 western states. The average deer only reached 171" and required to get to 6 years of age to reach that avg.

Htf would they have done that study?

 

[Mallardsx2]

Agree, I’ve seen a dominant bull moose push every bull out of a valley during the winter. He wants the best browse out there. Once he dies you see a bunch move in until one gets really big again. Same with bears and I’ve heard the lion one before

Thats interesting to hear how bull moose behave in the winter. I guess it literally is survival of the fittest.

Conversely, I remember one year I was flying across the bearing land bridge preserve (north of Nome) in the chopper, and I looked down and saw 6 bull moose standing around the only bush in sight for miles. There was about 2" between their antlers as they stood in a perfect circle around that bush. None of them even bothered to look up. Whatever they were eating must have been tasty. They were all in full velvet and feeding in harmony. So, I guess they behave differently during summer when they want to be friends. ha!

I wish I had taken a picture of it.

 

[elkhunterUT]

Htf would they have done that study?

Gonna take a wild guess and say harvest data

 

[Homer]

Gonna take a wild guess and say harvest data

Of a specific group of deer?

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Long-Lasting Effects of Maternal Condition in Free-Ranging Cervids

Causes of phenotypic variation are fundamental to evolutionary ecology because they influence the traits acted upon by natural selection. One such cause of phenotypic variation is a maternal effect, which is the influence of the environment experienced ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'll say I have not actually read the study to see the used methods etc.

Here is the chart I based my post off of. It shows both elk and deer.
View attachment 139945

Thanks Spencer, that is very interesting to look at.

 

[elkhunterUT]

Of a specific group of deer?

Yeah a sample of 4,500 deer across 5 states it sounds like

 

[t_boneking]

Big Hunt Guys: Ep. 111 | Saving an Icon of the West, Mule Deer with Professor Brock McMillan on Apple Podcasts

Show Big Hunt Guys, Ep Ep. 111 | Saving an Icon of the West, Mule Deer with Professor Brock McMillan - Mar 14, 2024

podcasts.apple.com

Here is the link to the podcast. It’s a good listen.

 

[Bag14me]

My daughter took an old (7 years) buck off the Pauns that didn’t even make 160! Gotta have the genes no matter how long they live

 

[Tristate]

Very few bucks will ever make it to 180 no matter how old they get.

 

[elkassassin]

Don't Ever Question What Somebody Says In This State Homer!

Brock Had To SPLAIN It To People Like Niller On What A Big Tom Will Do To His Own Breed!

That Ain't New NEWS!

If Somebody Says Something In A Podcast It's DRATville GOSPEL!

Htf would they have done that study?

 

[NPHunter]

This buck was right at 160” mostly due to mass, extra eye guards and deep fronts. I believe he was around 8-10. We’ve killed a few bucks that were 4.5 and 5.5 in the area and this bucks teeth were worn down over twice as much.

This buck is 4.5yrs and 184”, I think he would have been quite a bit bigger in one more year. He got way bigger from 3.5 to 4.5.

This is him the year prior and my 13yr old shot him within 50 yards of where this was pic taken the following year.

This buck was 5.5yrs old in the same area and went just over 170”.

 

[twopointdn]

I have seen plenty of 3-4 year old deer that I would shoot on opening morning with a general tag. Age is not the end all be all with how big the antlers are as stated above. Shoot what makes you happy and don’t expect that everyone is unhappy with management plans just because there are not bucks all over that are older than 4 years old. They have plenty of units that you can hunt 5+ year old bucks after you finally draw a tag after 20-40 years. Not my cup of tea, I like to hunt and to teach my kids how to hunt, not just how to dream about the day we finally draw a tag. Here is a four year old buck and a seven year old buck. The seven year old scores 147” and four year old 169”. I liked both so I pulled the trigger and smiled. Hunting is supposed to to be hunt, just saying.

 

[Aceman]

Just wait until the wolves get adjusted in Colorado. Saw what they did in Yellowstone, Be lucky to see few bucks live to be 160. Not to mention the lions,

 

[Rie bread]

Makes me sad that the buck I shot last year was two years old and a 4x4

 

[West1234]

Really interesting thread. I have spent a ton of time on the winter range where I live and based on what I saw, I would say that most mature deer don’t even break 170. I think a deer that can break 200 even as a nontypical is exceptionally rare. I always wonder how many are killed as fawns/young bucks. No doubt there are many deer that would have been 200 plus that wind up being killed by a predator as a fawn.

 

[antlerradar]

Most bucks with the potential to reach 200 inches are killed by two legged predators before the age of four.

 

[DBLung]

You'll never find out on a general unit in Utah as long as the state continues to manage tag numbers based on what they need for next year's budget. Along with the KILL ANY FORKY YOU SEE MENTALITY.