Muzzle Loader Scope Voting Poll

[dwil311]

You can still hunt in snow, just limit it. A lot. Like only a 5 day hunt instead of 30 or 45 days...

And only hunting on Saturday when it's hot

 

[Hawkeye]

No you won't if they keep picking off all the things that annoy people....trail cams down, muzzy scopes going down...horses ATVs weapons of any kind annoy some outdoorsman somewhere... allowing every yahoo to ban what annoys him will end with none of us hunting and everyone pissed that someone else wanted to do it different.

I disagree Dwilly. The rate of advancement of technology over the last two decades has been incredible, and it has occured at the same time that our herds are struggling (both numbers and quality). I have personally taken advantage of much of the new technology in order to make sure I am keeping up with other sportsmen and that I have the edge on my quarry. However, I have realized that the current trend is not sustainable, and we better start self-regulating as hunters or we will find ourselves in an even bigger mess.

I was happy to see trail cameras and drones banned, and I would like to see them ban scopes on muzzleloaders. And to be frank, I would not shed a tear if they found a way to ban or restrict long range rifles, the use of ATVs, and guides on public lands. I do not support these restrictions because the "annoy me." I support them because we need to find ways to give the animals more of a sporting chance, to lower success rates, and make hunting more of a sport.

Hawkeye

 

[dwil311]

It is all just absurd. If we ban all the things that make it too easy we find ourselves without vehicles or horses and without anything beyond a spear.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

You need a new option...let tech do what tech will do and let hunters hunt. This stupidity over it's unfair is way too similar to the anti hunter antics and dividing hunters left and right over stupid lines that have no real meaning or value. The biggest disadvantage to animals is snow. Make it illegal to hunt in snow if you're going to be about unfair advantages. Every snow storm harvest rates jump higher than any tech advancement.

You know what "annoying" is people on her trying to justify it don't help them in any shape or form.
Trail cameras don't help? Bull crap they don't. I have 30 of them now they're collecting dust. They absolutely do help and you know it.
As far as scopes, It doesn't bother me if they get rid of them or keep them. But when people on here are trying to justify keeping them and giving all sorts of excuses. Yes that is annoying.

The biggest disadvantage to animals is snow. Make it illegal to hunt in snow if you're going to be about unfair advantages. Every snow storm harvest rates jump higher than any tech advancement.

See this is "Annoying" I have hunted in the snow during the Archery hunt.
Rifle hunt.
Muzzloader hunt.
Extended Archery.
So lets shut it all down when it snows Really?

Show all of us proof it jumps higher and also was technology used in that harvest?
Are you really that desperate to have your trail cameras back? I don't care either way if I can or can't use them.

let tech do what tech will do and let hunters hunt.

This right here explains everything. See this is Annoying. Your a technology person and there is nothing wrong with that. But you can't sit here and tell me and everyone else it hasn't helped you be successful.

 

[dwil311]

I disagree Dwilly. The rate of advancement of technology over the last two decades has been incredible, and it has occured at the same time that our herds are struggling (both numbers and quality). I have personally taken advantage of much of the new technology in order to make sure I am keeping up with other sportsmen and that I have the edge on my quarry. However, I have realized that the current trend is not sustainable, and we better start self-regulating as hunters or we will find ourselves in an even bigger mess.

I was happy to see trail cameras and drones banned, and I would like to see them ban scopes on muzzleloaders. And to be frank, I would not shed a tear if they found a way to ban or restrict long range rifles, the use of ATVs, and guides on public lands. I do not support these restrictions because the "annoy me." I support them because we need to find ways to give the animals more of a sporting chance, to lower success rates, and make hunting more of a sport.

Hawkeye

This is called the observer fallacy. Because you observed it, it must be that it is everywhere. The harvest rates don't bare that out. And the years you have an increase it is just as likely related to snow or good rain as it is for technology to be the reason. Point of fact is deer and elk get slaughtered with a good snow storm. Just because you have done it and see a few guys on Facebook and Instagram that have doesn't mean that it is everywhere.

 

[dwil311]

You know what "annoying" is people on her trying to justify it don't help them in any shape or form.
Trail cameras don't help? Bull crap they don't. I have 30 of them now they're collecting dust. They absolutely do help and you know it.
As far as scopes, It doesn't bother me if they get rid of them or keep them. But when people on here are trying to justify keeping them and giving all sorts of excuses. Yes that is annoying.

See this is "Annoying" I have hunted in the snow during the Archery hunt.
Rifle hunt.
Muzzloader hunt.
Extended Archery.
So lets shut it all down when it snows Really?

Show all of us proof it jumps higher and also was technology used in that harvest?
Are you really that desperate to have your trail cameras back? I don't care either way if I can or can't use them.

This right here explains everything. See this is Annoying. Your a technology person and there is nothing wrong with that. But you can't sit here and tell me and everyone else it hasn't helped you be successful.

I can tell you that it hasn't upped my kill rate. It has helped me become a better shot. Trail cameras helped me be more selective about what I chased and I killed less as a result because I started hunting a specific animal. Shooting targets I get it. It absolutely makes it easier but killing an animal isn't at all in the same realm as shooting a target. The whole physiological response to killing something changes everything from heart rate to breathing. Elevation, slope and humidity and barometric pressure and wind patterns and thermals are all different than the range. That's why the kill rate isn't changed. And to deny those elements as having an impact on killing is just plain ignorant.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

I can tell you that it hasn't upped my kill rate. It has helped me become a better shot. Trail cameras helped me be more selective about what I chased and I killed less as a result because I started hunting a specific animal. Shooting targets I get it. It absolutely makes it easier but killing an animal isn't at all in the same realm as shooting a target. The whole physiological response to killing something changes everything from heart rate to breathing. Elevation, slope and humidity and barometric pressure and wind patterns and thermals are all different than the range. That's why the kill rate isn't changed. And to deny those elements as having an impact on killing is just plain ignorant.

There you have it! Thanks you answer that perfectly.

So you have become a better shot at longer ranges. You don't have to work as hard to get a shot off. Okay I understand it's helped me too.
Trail cameras have helped me as well.
Why I'm sitting at home I'm getting tons of pictures on animals and defiantly tells me where I will be hunting opening morning just like you.
Seems totally fair for the animal Doesn't It?

Look I miss running cameras as well.I have changed my hunt strategy quit a bit and It doesn't bother me at all. But it sure bothers other's on here.

 

[Bux n Dux]

Baiting helped kill more animals. Although it impacted my archery hunting methods for archery elk, I was glad to see it made illegal. Trail cams undoubtedly helped everyone who used them to be successful. Again, I used them a lot when legal, and can admit I was successful several times on specific animals because of them, but was glad to see them banned. I wish they would have made them illegal to use period, all year long their use would be illegal. (Maybe some day). Drones, thermal imaging, range finding scopes and sights, im glad to see outlawed. Any time you can eliminate human error to any extent, it definitely will increase the odds of an animal getting away. Scopes on muzzleloaders… i really don’t care either way. If they are being eliminated because of benefits to wildlife, I’m 110% in favor of it. But I’m leaning towards in favor of keeping scopes because the target on their back has nothing to do with wildlife benefits. It’s entirely a social issue. Your 30-40% success rates you had in 2008 didn’t change when scopes were allowed in 2016. And your 2022 success rates won’t change if you ban scopes in 2024. Scopes don’t make it “easier”. They make it more convenient. That’s it IMO. Keep the scopes and ban the range finder use by all hunters, regardless the season. Sure there’s work arounds to that, but most hunters can’t do it on the fly, under pressure, in just a few seconds. Rangefinders impact EVERYONE fairly. I’m tired of the eye for an eye war we are declaring on ourselves. Let’s all take the hit and do what will impact everyone the most. You don’t have to buy new equipment. It doesn’t give anyone an unfair advantage over another person. Across the board, it’s really what will have the largest effect. Which as a unintended result, will also benefit wildlife. (Which is what should be the priority to begin with).

Not being able to use a rangefinder would certainly limit my effectiveness on all my hunts, using any of my weapons. A lot of the animals I’ve harvested would have lived to see another day if I couldn’t have used one. I’m certain any serious hunter out there would have to say the same thing. Let’s quitdabitchin about this and that, and remove the one key item from our tool belt and be done with it. It’s as simple as that.

 

[dwil311]

You know what "annoying" is people on her trying to justify it don't help them in any shape or form.
Trail cameras don't help? Bull crap they don't. I have 30 of them now they're collecting dust. They absolutely do help and you know it.
As far as scopes, It doesn't bother me if they get rid of them or keep them. But when people on here are trying to justify keeping them and giving all sorts of excuses. Yes that is annoying.

See this is "Annoying" I have hunted in the snow during the Archery hunt.
Rifle hunt.
Muzzloader hunt.
Extended Archery.
So lets shut it all down when it snows Really?

Show all of us proof it jumps higher and also was technology used in that harvest?
Are you really that desperate to have your trail cameras back? I don't care either way if I can or can't use them.

This right here explains everything. See this is Annoying. Your a technology person and there is nothing wrong with that. But you can't sit here and tell me and everyone else it hasn't helped you be successful.

Also why take an arbitrary approach when there is a perfectly scientific option. There is no reason to limit technology when it doesn't significantly impact the kill rate. And even if it did why would you stop that? Killing bucks and bulls does nothing for the population. Killing the wrong age class isn't a tech problem it is a knowledge problem.

Take that approach instead of ban ban ban. We require ethics courses for the extended archery I would have no problem requiring an ethics course about the agenda of a given unit. And not mandate that they kill accordingly but require that they acknowledge the consequences of not following actual conservation principles.

Killing bucks and bulls is a good thing for humans and animals alike if done properly it decreases strains on the rest of the herd and gives up and comers a better chance.

Why not attack there instead of this foolishness.

 

[lif]

We should quit using the defense of “Going backwards” or “taking things away. “. All these issues including muzzy scopes have been introduced in the last 20 years. It’s not taking them away, it’s slowing down the momentum of new technology introduced into hunting.

 

[Vanilla]

You need a new option...let tech do what tech will do and let hunters hunt.

I could not *DISagree with this option any more than I do.

You want to be able to pull the trigger from your couch? Play video games.

*I had quite the typo in there the first time! Old bessy is starting to rub off on me!

 

[dwil311]

There you have it! Thanks you answer that perfectly.

So you have become a better shot at longer ranges. You don't have to work as hard to get a shot off. Okay I understand it's helped me too.
Trail cameras have helped me as well.
Why I'm sitting at home I'm getting tons of pictures on animals and defiantly tells me where I will be hunting opening morning just like you.
Seems totally fair for the animal Doesn't It?

Look I miss running cameras as well.I have changed my hunt strategy quit a bit and It doesn't bother me at all. But it sure bothers other's on here.

The cameras didn't make guys more likely to kill. It decreased it because they became more selective. Which is what conservationists want...selective and picky hunters.

The better shot at the range didn't help me kill more because shooting at the range is not even remotely related to killing.

So you're conflating those points is just plain ignorant.

Really the biggest impact on killing is inclement weather systems, before and after. Outlaw that if you don't want hunting to be too easy.

But that is just plain stupid, we want people killing elk and deer because they use it as food. What we don't want is people killing the animal just because it's legal. That is what kills your age classes not technology.

 

[dwil311]

I could not agree with this option any more than I do.

You want to be able to pull the trigger from your couch? Play video games.

And then after you shoot it, you're done. You're tag is filled and no one needs to worry about you putting any pressure on the animals you and I hunt.

How someone else does it is no concern of mine as long as it is legal. I don't care how someone else goes about it. Passing arbitrary law after arbitrary law just makes us foolishly and ignorantly dependent on government to do all and say all.

The price for allowing that foolishness is too high for my kids and grandkids. Fighting off tyranny comes at great cost...generations that have lost sight of what liberty is and how easy it is to sell for comfort and riddance of annoyance will demand our offspring pay that price.

 

[elkassassin]

Check Your PM Niller!

I could not agree with this option any more than I do.

You want to be able to pull the trigger from your couch? Play video games.

 

[Ballistic]

This poll has been interesting to say the least. I started it based off several comments saying something to the effect of "there's only a few guys who want to hunt with old tech that are pushing this!!!!" on the other thread. That appears to be false based on results. Granted, this is a small poll to a very niche group of hunters.

While we don't have good controls on it for knowing who voted or if someone tried to game it ( I doubt anyone put that much effort into that but who knows) it shows 64.5% of muzzle loader hunters polled aren't happy with the direction the hunt is going in. That is statistically significant. I wish the DWR would do this on a larger scale with actual polling software to hunters. That "technology" is available and not emerging .

Question ?
How many votes on this poll are from Utah?
I don’t know if you have the data but would be nice to know.
Thanks

 

[Elkslayer2015]

The cameras didn't make guys more likely to kill. It decreased it because they became more selective. Which is what conservationists want...selective and picky hunters.

The better shot at the range didn't help me kill more because shooting at the range is not even remotely related to killing.

So you're conflating those points is just plain ignorant.

Really the biggest impact on killing is inclement weather systems, before and after. Outlaw that if you don't want hunting to be too easy.

But that is just plain stupid, we want people killing elk and deer because they use it as food. What we don't want is people killing the animal just because it's legal. That is what kills your age classes not technology.

Well I guess you better start going to the RAC meeting and board meeting.

Tell them how ignorant I am and they are k.
You can say what you want but your what 10 post in on a new account.
Maybe you should look at all the other post on this matter and then you will see why I am annoyed has nothing at all to do with rules or ban. It has everything to do with people saying it doesn’t help them in harvest because I know dam good and well it does.

 

[scopenstalk]

Question ?
How many votes on this poll are from Utah?
I don’t know if you have the data but would be nice to know.
Thanks

Question. If you’re so set on poking holes in it, why don’t you attempt to do something better? I’m not the one professing to speak for thousands of other hunters like you have been. I asked the group that was discussing and got the best data I could given my very limited permissions on this platform. Which if you would stop typing for one minute and read, you would see I have mentioned that the DWR SHOULD poll the masses.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Question ?
How many votes on this poll are from Utah?
I don’t know if you have the data but would be nice to know.
Thanks

I agree that would be nice to know.

 

[Ballistic]

Question. If you’re so set on poking holes in it, why don’t you attempt to do something better? I’m not the one professing to speak for thousands of other hunters like you have been. I asked the group that was discussing and got the best data I could given my very limited permissions on this platform. Which if you would stop typing for one minute and read, you would see I have mentioned that the DWR SHOULD poll the masses.

I agree with you with what your doing.

Slam has said he would go with the majority of the vote. And this is for Utah to decide.
Was this vote done by utah members or out of state ?
This is a simple question.
Please answer this if you can.

And I’ll keep poking holes in this issue because I don’t believe Utah Hunters wanted this. Special interests with special agendas done in smoke filled back rooms yes.

Just answer the question. If you don’t - your poll stinks and you’ve been used again -or your part of it.

 

[scopenstalk]

I agree with you with what your doing.

Slam has said he would go with the majority of the vote. And this is for Utah to decide.
Was this vote done by utah members or out of state ?
This is a simple question.
Please answer this if you can.

And I’ll keep poking holes in this issue because I don’t believe Utah Hunters wanted this. Special interests with special agendas done in smoke filled back rooms yes.

Just answer the question. If you don’t - your poll stinks and you’ve been used again -or your part of it.

No idea who voted. At this point I don’t care either.

If the poll is garbage; cool story, bro.

Quite frankly your opinion is worth exactly what is paid for it.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

No idea who voted. At this point I don’t care either.

If the poll is garbage; cool story, bro.

Quite frankly your opinion is worth exactly what is paid for it.

He ask you a simple question. You took it way out into left field.
Read his post he wasn’t being ignorant.

 

[scopenstalk]

He ask you a simple question. You took it way out into left field.
Read his post he wasn’t being ignorant.

He really is. You should read his posts a ways back. He thinks I’m in cahoots with the tech committee. That I’m somehow connected to this. That I timed it purposefully…..I’m a father of young kids, who likes to hunt and am a native Utahn. Have zero time in my life to be connected with anyone in the good ol boys club. For F sakes. I made an attempt to capture a glimpse of what the MM crowd wants. I have admitted the data is very limited but it’s better than one dude vehemently spewing that he knows the hearts and minds of utards far and wide about this issue which is exactly what he has been doing for going on two weeks.

 

[dwil311]

Well I guess you better start going to the RAC meeting and board meeting.

Tell them how ignorant I am and they are k.
You can say what you want but your what 10 post in on a new account.
Maybe you should look at all the other post on this matter and then you will see why I am annoyed has nothing at all to do with rules or ban. It has everything to do with people saying it doesn’t help them in harvest because I know dam good and well it does.

Keep pushing agendas like this...give it 10yrs or so...then let's revisit it.

Risks of letting hunters hunt with what's legal without arbitrary impediment from government...some animals you wished you had killed got killed by someone who showed them to you on social media.

Risk of begging for more and more arbitrary bull crap from government....where does that end? I guarantee that the ending is worse than you seeing an animal killed on social media.

 

[Ballistic]

He really is. You should read his posts a ways back. He thinks I’m in cahoots with the tech committee. That I’m somehow connected to this. That I timed it purposefully…..I’m a father of young kids, who likes to hunt and am a native Utahn. Have zero time in my life to be connected with anyone in the good ol boys club. For F sakes. I made an attempt to capture a glimpse of what the MM crowd wants. I have admitted the data is very limited but it’s better than one dude vehemently spewing that he knows the hearts and minds of utards far and wide about this issue which is exactly what he has been doing for going on two weeks.

Please
Read all of my posts with scopenstalk. I did come off rough on him on my 1st post -which I apologized to him.

I also said that SLAM and tech committee likely used him (on another post) so they could now say “this is what the members of monster Muleys wanted” which is what SLAM actually commented he wound do. A perfect scapegoat for Slam - at scopenstalk expense - in my opinion.

I have never proclaimed to be the voice of hunters and Utahns (not Utards).
I’m not going to stop posting on my passions that I believe the tech committee and slam -have their own personal agendas that were not created by the hunters of utah with muzzleloaders. Those hunters spoke in 2015 and wanted muzzleloaders by 57%.
Slam has stated that the tech of muzzleloaders has greatly suprpassed archery and rifle -which is BS - and I’m still waiting for some actual proof that it has.

I’m so sorry that you have taken this personally as an attack on you and I’ll say sorry I more time.

But if the question of who took this survey and voted on it can’t be answered - then I’m not sorry at all for nicely asking for it. And I’m not sorry for saying that they have used you either -whether you knew it or not.
Your survey is admiral - the tech committees proposal is NOT.

 

[dwil311]

Baiting helped kill more animals. Although it impacted my archery hunting methods for archery elk, I was glad to see it made illegal. Trail cams undoubtedly helped everyone who used them to be successful. Again, I used them a lot when legal, and can admit I was successful several times on specific animals because of them, but was glad to see them banned. I wish they would have made them illegal to use period, all year long their use would be illegal. (Maybe some day). Drones, thermal imaging, range finding scopes and sights, im glad to see outlawed. Any time you can eliminate human error to any extent, it definitely will increase the odds of an animal getting away. Scopes on muzzleloaders… i really don’t care either way. If they are being eliminated because of benefits to wildlife, I’m 110% in favor of it. But I’m leaning towards in favor of keeping scopes because the target on their back has nothing to do with wildlife benefits. It’s entirely a social issue. Your 30-40% success rates you had in 2008 didn’t change when scopes were allowed in 2016. And your 2022 success rates won’t change if you ban scopes in 2024. Scopes don’t make it “easier”. They make it more convenient. That’s it IMO. Keep the scopes and ban the range finder use by all hunters, regardless the season. Sure there’s work arounds to that, but most hunters can’t do it on the fly, under pressure, in just a few seconds. Rangefinders impact EVERYONE fairly. I’m tired of the eye for an eye war we are declaring on ourselves. Let’s all take the hit and do what will impact everyone the most. You don’t have to buy new equipment. It doesn’t give anyone an unfair advantage over another person. Across the board, it’s really what will have the largest effect. Which as a unintended result, will also benefit wildlife. (Which is what should be the priority to begin with).

Not being able to use a rangefinder would certainly limit my effectiveness on all my hunts, using any of my weapons. A lot of the animals I’ve harvested would have lived to see another day if I couldn’t have used one. I’m certain any serious hunter out there would have to say the same thing. Let’s quitdabitchin about this and that, and remove the one key item from our tool belt and be done with it. It’s as simple as that.

And no baiting and cameras didn't make it easier to kill. Sure that situation where it works feels easier than the alternatives. But harvest rates didn't jump 100% from their norms...if it went up at all...an increase from 30-40 % is going to make you guys toss the baby with the bathwater without even looking at all the variables? We sure as hell weren't seeing 70% kill rates in those same units. Even that why would you care if that many bucks and bulls are killed. They allocated the tags for it. The only reason it matters is if guys are killing ignorantly. Kill all the 6yr+ bucks and 8yr+ bulls and guess what you have a new crop the next year. Kill indiscriminately and you perforate the age classes with holes and you may or may not have a good crop from year to year. The problem isn't technology it is indiscriminate killing.

Also the thing we did see through those years was the photos of people scouting on social media.. which was a huge load....but you didn't stop to take a count of how many of those same guys also killed. But you did see everyone that killed assumed that everyone that scouted also killed...it didn't pan out that way. It is easier to see elk and deer with cameras. It is easier to see them with long range optics. Killing is not target shooting and it sure as hell isn't the same as seeing something while scouting whether with a camera or not.

The only reason it matters to you that people killed while using tech is because you want fewer people in the field and you want people to stop killing animals that you wanted to kill. There is no other reason. The reason for decreased herds can not be pinned on tech...killing bucks and bulls does nothing to the herds. We have low numbers for something people don't want to bring attention to and until we do we will continue to see poor numbers whether you ban tech or not.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Keep pushing agendas like this...give it 10yrs or so...then let's revisit it.

Risks of letting hunters hunt with what's legal without arbitrary impediment from government...some animals you wished you had killed got killed by someone who showed them to you on social media.

Risk of begging for more and more arbitrary bull crap from government....where does that end? I guarantee that the ending is worse than you seeing an animal killed on social media.

Okay I’ll stand behind that. I’m only standing behind it because hunters want to sit here and not tell the truth and say it doesn’t help.
I’m sorry I can hunt with or without technology it don’t matter to me.
But I know for a fact you can still have a good hunt without all the gadgets and that is fact.
I will stand behind the camera band 100% it Does help a ton. I have to really put the boots to the ground now. But I still mange to get it done. But I have a lot of friends that hunt and they just can’t seem to figure it out.
As far as scopes on muzzleloader I made the choice to not switch I still have the old set up. One muzzy has a 1x on it and my boys has open sights and they have been very successful the last 10 years.
I posted harvest data to show we all can live without scopes on muzzy. I don’t care which way it goes.

 

[Bux n Dux]

The only reason it matters to you that people killed while using tech is because you want fewer people in the field and you want people to stop killing animals that you wanted to kill. There is no other reason.

Congratulations. You win dumbest fugging comment on the forum today, and that’s quite the accomplishment considering who’s been active in the other muzzleloader threads.

That’s not even close to an accurate statement regarding me or tech bans in general. I absolutely do not want less people on the field. And I have zero bad feelings towards anyone who harvest any animal by legal means. Even if I was hunting that particular animal. They got the opportunity before I did. Good on them.

But continue on with your made up false assumptions. They are pretty comical to read.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

And no baiting and cameras didn't make it easier to kill.

It made it easier for me way easier. It also made it very easy for all the guides and outfitter and it also help everyone else as well.

I will disagree with you on that.

 

[Bux n Dux]

If baiting didn’t make it easier to kill animals, why was it banned?

 

[Vanilla]

If baiting or cameras or scopes or compound bows or inline muzzies or any of these things didn’t make it easier, none of us would use them.

Quit lying.

It’s okay if we chose to use things that make killing easier. But let’s at least be honest, like I’ve said before.

 

[elkassassin]

The KING Likes The Word HONEST!

Just Don't Mention FAIR!

Right Niller?

If baiting or cameras or scopes or compound bows or inline muzzies or any of these things didn’t make it easier, none of us would use them.

Quit lying.

It’s okay if we chose to use things that make killing easier. But let’s at least be honest, like I’ve said before.

 

[Vanilla]

Fair is a fallacy.

Honest is what good humans are.

 

[roadrunner]

Question ?
How many votes on this poll are from Utah?
I don’t know if you have the data but would be nice to know.
Thanks

That's really irrelevant as to how many from UT voted. Knowing that number doesn't necessarily solidify the conclusion "See! UT doesn't want this!".

The more support you have against it the better, it only strengthens the case against it. I wish more people from outside of NM chimed in last year, but too many times people keep to themselves on important issues. It's okay to lend support to another state as a non resident. Really it is.

 

[MrShane]

This whole thing reminds me of the stories of duck hunters in the early 1900’s.
Most hunters back then had a single shot 10 or 12 gauge shotgun, most of them loaded by the muzzle with blackpowder ( think ‘Dram equivalent’ )still used to describe and labeled on factory shotshell ammo to this day.
Then technology advanced to double guns, repeaters, factory cartridges you could shoot as fast as you could drop them in the breech.
Throw in punt guns throwing out a wall of death and you pick up a hundred ducks with one shot.
Shooting over dumped corn.
Shooting over live decoys tethered to stakes pounded in the pond bottom( how awesome would this be to still be legal since now we have strict limits).
8 gauge shotguns.
6 gauge shotguns.
Even some 4 gauges.
Night shooting and don’t forget even Utah had a April duck season.
All these hunters just about wiped out all the ducks in our flyways.
Fortunately for all of us we had some of our forefathers wise up and see what advancing technology was doing to our flocks.
They got together and put limits to not only number of birds that could get killed each day, but also to the equipment a guy could use to kill his birds.
Those proactive hunters saved birds for us a hundred years later.
Hopefully we can all police ourselves in order to keep our herds strong for another 100 years.

 

[Ballistic]

That's really irrelevant as to how many from UT voted. Knowing that number doesn't necessarily solidify the conclusion "See! UT doesn't want this!".

The more support you have against it the better, it only strengthens the case against it. I wish more people from outside of NM chimed in last year, but too many times people keep to themselves on important issues. It's okay to lend support to another state as a non resident. Really it is.

I will 100% disagree with you when a key tech committee member says they will go with the votes from monster Muleys to eliminate optics. This is an Utah issue being taken to the Utah WB and future rack meetings and likely sportsmen’s - from Utah.
This voting poll is a great excuse for SLAM to say this wasn’t his idea.

I don’t want a western states HOA deciding my future - even if this is too late. I’m planning on attending a few of the RAC meetings and putting my questions on the hand picked agenda.

And once again - I hope those hunters (2015) that wanted optics on muzzleloaders (57%) from Utah vote one way or the other.

I’m going to keep asking the same question “How many votes were from Utah on this Poll” until it is answered?
And I don’t know why there isn’t more support for an answer ?

 

[Vanilla]

I’m going to keep asking the same question “How many votes were from Utah on this Poll” until it is answered?
And I don’t know why there isn’t more support for an answer ?

Will it make you feel better to keep asking a question that there is not an answer to? How on earth would anyone know the answer to this question?

If this poll went the other way would you be as concerned about that? You don’t need to answer that, by the way. It’s a rhetorical question.

This poll is really bad for those that want things to remain as they are. I was surprised by the result. It’s overwhelmingly against leaving things as they are. I was expecting that one to win out when it first posted, but just narrowly. I was quite wrong, clearly!

 

[dwil311]

This whole thing reminds me of the stories of duck hunters in the early 1900’s.
Most hunters back then had a single shot 10 or 12 gauge shotgun, most of them loaded by the muzzle with blackpowder ( think ‘Dram equivalent’ )still used to describe and labeled on factory shotshell ammo to this day.
Then technology advanced to double guns, repeaters, factory cartridges you could shoot as fast as you could drop them in the breech.
Throw in punt guns throwing out a wall of death and you pick up a hundred ducks with one shot.
Shooting over dumped corn.
Shooting over live decoys tethered to stakes pounded in the pond bottom( how awesome would this be to still be legal since now we have strict limits).
8 gauge shotguns.
6 gauge shotguns.
Even some 4 gauges.
Night shooting and don’t forget even Utah had a April duck season.
All these hunters just about wiped out all the ducks in our flyways.
Fortunately for all of us we had some of our forefathers wise up and see what advancing technology was doing to our flocks.
They got together and put limits to not only number of birds that could get killed each day, but also to the equipment a guy could use to kill his birds.
Those proactive hunters saved birds for us a hundred years later.
Hopefully we can all police ourselves in order to keep our herds strong for another 100 years.

It wasn't the fault of the tech it was the lack of principled conservation. It doesn't matter how easy it is to kill, it matters how and why we kill. Killing indiscriminately will always net bad results whether it is done with a spear of bazooka. If people killed from their couch it wouldn't matter if it was a principled kill. We have enough regulations right now but we still have problems not because people aren't following regulations but because they aren't taking the time to consider what actually needs to happen for conservation.

Use lasers from satellites, but whatever you do make sure it makes sense for what the herds need. This isn't a game we need to make hard. This is food free of the bull crap that is being put in them through the mass production. That is becoming more essential as corporate America and corporate production is taking on more of an agenda to drop the global population. We aren't playing a game with the animals. Fairness isn't an ideal that can be achieved without great loss of fairness on one end or the other.

Bait and cameras and scopes don't significantly change the kill rate. They do make a given kill feel easier. But on the whole what is the net change in kill rates with tech? It isn't a change of going from 30% to 80% ...and guides were mentioned of course guides are getting those kill rates....what guide stays in business with less than 70% kill rates. They use all their available resources to make sure they get their clients on a kill... That's how they stay in business. But they were killing at those rates before tech and after tech.

Joe shmoe was still killing at about 10-30% kill rates and you're going to begrudge him if his kill rate maybe went up to 20-40% when you didn't even analyze all the possible variables that may have been a greater contributor to his kill rate increase? That is just absurd and shows how arbitrary it is.

Absolutely tech and bait make a specific kill feel easier. But it doesn't make killing easier for the whole population of hunters doing it. Those who do kill will feel like it was so much easier than grinding it out. But they don't realize how many times it didn't work for the other guys. The animals still smell and hear and know when our routines don't follow the set patterns. I've hunted over bait on private land and I've grinded it out on public land and love both but what I hate is the arbitrary blind ban it attitude of asking government to do something that won't net a meaningful change in outcomes.

Until we teach people why and what should be killed for the benefit of the herds, until we convince other interests of the why and what needs to be done for the wildlife we will continue to see the decline of muledeer and poor age class structures in our herds. It isn't the fault of tech, it is the fault of unprincipled killing and conservation bound by multiple interests. Put the blame where it needs to fall and quit with the fairness bull crap. Killing isn't fair, it is death....but for a lot of us it is clean food that we want for our independence. And does and cow elk are only an ideal source when the herds can support it. I don't see numbers I want to regularly kill does and cows.

 

[dwil311]

Will it make you feel better to keep asking a question that there is not an answer to? How on earth would anyone know the answer to this question?

If this poll went the other way would you be as concerned about that? You don’t need to answer that, by the way. It’s a rhetorical question.

This poll is really bad for those that want things to remain as they are. I was surprised by the result. It’s overwhelmingly against leaving things as they are. I was expecting that one to win out when it first posted, but just narrowly. I was quite wrong, clearly!

Put it in your poll...
I'm from Utah and want to see things change with tech.
I'm not from Utah and want to see things change with tech.
I'm from Utah and I want things to stay as is with no more changed.
I'm not from Utah and I want things to stay the same with no more changed.
I'm from Utah and I want things to be slightly changed.(4x scope)
I'm not from Utah and I want to see things slightly changed. (4x scope)
Im from Utah and I want things to go back to 2016
I'm not from Utah and I want things to go back to 2016

 

[dwil311]

If baiting or cameras or scopes or compound bows or inline muzzies or any of these things didn’t make it easier, none of us would use them.

Quit lying.

It’s okay if we chose to use things that make killing easier. But let’s at least be honest, like I’ve said before.

Only killing makes killing easier. Target practice definitely gets easier with tech. But killing only seems easier when it is successful. Managing heart rates and breathing and timing of shots with biorhythms can not be easily replicated at the range. Those elements that trigger in our bodies when we set to kill are the reasons why so many are unable to kill. Guys that have it hammered out are going to kill about no matter what because they have it worked out. Most guys don't have it worked out and depending on all the baits and attractants and calls and tech in the world won't help them work it out because it isn't those things that make the kill. Those things may absolutely help with the visibility of animals and may help with the shot opportunities, but killing is not shot opportunities. It is killing and that is where nothing helps but experience.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller?

You Wanna Re-Think That Last Paragraph Below?

You Sure?

It'd Be The First Time!

But Like I've Always Said:

There's A First Time For Every-Thang!

Will it make you feel better to keep asking a question that there is not an answer to? How on earth would anyone know the answer to this question?

If this poll went the other way would you be as concerned about that? You don’t need to answer that, by the way. It’s a rhetorical question.

This poll is really bad for those that want things to remain as they are. I was surprised by the result. It’s overwhelmingly against leaving things as they are. I was expecting that one to win out when it first posted, but just narrowly. I was quite wrong, clearly!

 

[dwil311]

It wasn't the fault of the tech it was the lack of principled conservation. It doesn't matter how easy it is to kill, it matters how and why we kill. Killing indiscriminately will always net bad results whether it is done with a spear of bazooka. If people killed from their couch it wouldn't matter if it was a principled kill. We have enough regulations right now but we still have problems not because people aren't following regulations but because they aren't taking the time to consider what actually needs to happen for conservation.

Use lasers from satellites, but whatever you do make sure it makes sense for what the herds need. This isn't a game we need to make hard. This is food free of the bull crap that is being put in them through the mass production. That is becoming more essential as corporate America and corporate production is taking on more of an agenda to drop the global population. We aren't playing a game with the animals. Fairness isn't an ideal that can be achieved without great loss of fairness on one end or the other.

Bait and cameras and scopes don't significantly change the kill rate. They do make a given kill feel easier. But on the whole what is the net change in kill rates with tech? It isn't a change of going from 30% to 80% ...and guides were mentioned of course guides are getting those kill rates....what guide stays in business with less than 70% kill rates. They use all their available resources to make sure they get their clients on a kill... That's how they stay in business. But they were killing at those rates before tech and after tech.

Joe shmoe was still killing at about 10-30% kill rates and you're going to begrudge him if his kill rate maybe went up to 20-40% when you didn't even analyze all the possible variables that may have been a greater contributor to his kill rate increase? That is just absurd and shows how arbitrary it is.

Absolutely tech and bait make a specific kill feel easier. But it doesn't make killing easier for the whole population of hunters doing it. Those who do kill will feel like it was so much easier than grinding it out. But they don't realize how many times it didn't work for the other guys. The animals still smell and hear and know when our routines don't follow the set patterns. I've hunted over bait on private land and I've grinded it out on public land and love both but what I hate is the arbitrary blind ban it attitude of asking government to do something that won't net a meaningful change in outcomes.

Until we teach people why and what should be killed for the benefit of the herds, until we convince other interests of the why and what needs to be done for the wildlife we will continue to see the decline of muledeer and poor age class structures in our herds. It isn't the fault of tech, it is the fault of unprincipled killing and conservation bound by multiple interests. Put the blame where it needs to fall and quit with the fairness bull crap. Killing isn't fair, it is death....but for a lot of us it is clean food that we want for our independence. And does and cow elk are only an ideal source when the herds can support it. I don't see numbers I want to regularly kill does and cows.

Oh and having someone believe in you in a way that causes your confidence to increase. That also helps. So surely if we are going to make this as hard as we can...we must eliminate all things that make it easier...weather, temps, moon phases, positive roll models, mentors all those things must be banned as well as horses and ATVs and any kind of optics beyond our God given eyesight. Because this is a game we are playing right...and if it isn't fair to what someone else has idealized then it isn't worth it. This is food for a lot of people and people making it out as some kind of a sport makes the whole thing unnecessary and easily banned. If it is necessary then how it happens matters less than making sure it follows good principles for continued harvests. The tech to kill is less important than what and why...just like the farmer knowing when to pick the fruit and when to leave the fruit, we have a bunch of people with no real interest in following those kinds of principles and that is where one of the problems lies. The other is with other public land interests that drain the resources for wildlife. But until those two points are going to be addressed properly we will be just sitting here spinning our wheels griping at each other of one point of nonsenses after another mean while government is flexing their new found muscle seeing how absurd and disorganized we as a community are.

 

[Vanilla]

David, you’re a BYU fan, aren’t you?

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Oh and having someone believe in you in a way that causes your confidence to increase. That also helps. So surely if we are going to make this as hard as we can...we must eliminate all things that make it easier...weather, temps, moon phases, positive roll models, mentors all those things must be banned as well as horses and ATVs and any kind of optics beyond our God given eyesight. Because this is a game we are playing right...and if it isn't fair to what someone else has idealized then it isn't worth it. This is food for a lot of people and people making it out as some kind of a sport makes the whole thing unnecessary and easily banned. If it is necessary then how it happens matters less than making sure it follows good principles for continued harvests. The tech to kill is less important than what and why...just like the farmer knowing when to pick the fruit and when to leave the fruit, we have a bunch of people with no real interest in following those kinds of principles and that is where one of the problems lies. The other is with other public land interests that drain the resources for wildlife. But until those two points are going to be addressed properly we will be just sitting here spinning our wheels griping at each other of one point of nonsenses after another mean while government is flexing their new found muscle seeing how absurd and disorganized we as a community are.

David! Okay which is it?
I know your pissed your trail cameras have been taken away.

Maybe your pissed that they have started taken down tree stands that have been left up there for years on the Ashley National forest.

Maybe your pissed because you can't have electronics can't be attached to your bow anymore?

Maybe your pissed because you can't link up your phone to your riflescope?

Maybe your a Burris Eliminator fan and they took that away?

Maybe your pissed because they got rid of the 3 season tag.

I spoke the truth about technology. I will argue with you all day long on technology.

By the way it snowed in the high Uintah's yesterday I guess we should shut down hunting season.

trying to justify keeping technology with me. Fact are facts we don't NEED technology to be successful we WANT it. look at the harvest data 40 years ago till now.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Bait and cameras and scopes don't significantly change the kill rate. They do make a given kill feel easier. But on the whole what is the net change in kill rates with tech? It isn't a change of going from 30% to 80% ...and guides were mentioned of course guides are getting those kill rates....what guide stays in business with less than 70% kill rates. They use all their available resources to make sure they get their clients on a kill... That's how they stay in business. But they were killing at those rates before tech and after tech.

This is all new. So you can't sit here and tell me it hasn't changed. Give it 5 years then will see where we are at.

Now remember last winter was very hard on animals.

 

[Ballistic]

Will it make you feel better to keep asking a question that there is not an answer to? How on earth would anyone know the answer to this question?

If this poll went the other way would you be as concerned about that? You don’t need to answer that, by the way. It’s a rhetorical question.

This poll is really bad for those that want things to remain as they are. I was surprised by the result. It’s overwhelmingly against leaving things as they are. I was expecting that one to win out when it first posted, but just narrowly. I was quite wrong, clearly!

Ballistic said:
“I’m going to keep asking the same question “How many votes were from Utah on this Poll” until it is answered?
And I don’t know why there isn’t more support for an answer ?”

Vanilla
I want to ask you the same question on paragraph #2 of your response.
If this would have went the other direction - would you be asking the same question that I’m asking ?
Thank You.

 

[dwil311]

This is all new. So you can't sit here and tell me it hasn't changed. Give it 5 years then will see where we are at.

Now remember last winter was very hard on animals.

It isn't new the cameras were around for 10yrs+ and no significant change in harvest rates. Baiting was happening for decades and no significant harvest change. The fact that we have a couple of years even before this last winter and things hadn't changed really shows it wasn't those things making a difference. And southern Utah didn't have the same winter kill as northern Utah so we can look at that and for sure see the problem is not tech. It is poor conservation whether by hunters killing indiscriminately or by other public land interests mismanaging the resources so that deer and elk have less when a hard winter like last winter hits.

 

[dwil311]

David! Okay which is it?
I know your pissed your trail cameras have been taken away.

Maybe your pissed that they have started taken down tree stands that have been left up there for years on the Ashley National forest.

Maybe your pissed because you can't have electronics can't be attached to your bow anymore?

Maybe your pissed because you can't link up your phone to your riflescope?

Maybe your a Burris Eliminator fan and they took that away?

Maybe your pissed because they got rid of the 3 season tag.

I spoke the truth about technology. I will argue with you all day long on technology.

By the way it snowed in the high Uintah's yesterday I guess we should shut down hunting season.

trying to justify keeping technology with me. Fact are facts we don't NEED technology to be successful we WANT it. look at the harvest data 40 years ago till now.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

I agree we don't need technology to be successful. As I'm saying it isn't technology that is causing the herd problems we are seeing. So taking away tech isn't helping anything. So why take it away? If you gain no advantage by removing it then let it be. Let people hunt the way they want as long as it is legal. But this adding law after law that ultimately makes no difference for the herds is just arbitrary and absurd. I don't am not a big tech guy. I have minimal technology that I use. But I am absolutely not one to stand for people begging for help from government. Government is not our friend, it is a necessary evil, but our reliance on it to fix things that are broken without focusing on the broken parts is just inane and the literal definition of insanity. Guides are not going to stop harvesting at the 70-100% kill rate with the changes that have been made. Cause if they do they're out of a job. Guys that kill will still kill, road hunters will still hit the lottery from time to time which was about the same success rate for guys that over depended on attractants and bait and cameras...they hit the lottery from time to time. The only constant killers are guides and guys who know how to kill. Their numbers stay pretty consistent no matter what tech they're using. So quit asking for government to fix this as it won't change anything for the better. Ask them to do ethics courses that teach people about good hunting principles for the objectives for a particular unit. Ask them to set up habitat improvements so more bighorn can be brought in. Focus on actual things that will bring about actual changes for the herds.

 

[Hawkeye]

This is called the observer fallacy. Because you observed it, it must be that it is everywhere. The harvest rates don't bare that out. And the years you have an increase it is just as likely related to snow or good rain as it is for technology to be the reason. Point of fact is deer and elk get slaughtered with a good snow storm. Just because you have done it and see a few guys on Facebook and Instagram that have doesn't mean that it is everywhere.

OK. You win! I'll chalk it all up to "observer fallacy"!

Welcome to the forum! You have got to love it when a new member joins and launches a crusade to convince the world on a particular issue. May I offer some advice? Slow down. Listen. Read posts from others. Ponder. Then respond.

At this rate, you are going to surpass ElkAss's 33K post count by the opener of the rifle hunt!

Hawkeye

 

[roadrunner]

I will 100% disagree with you when a key tech committee member says they will go with the votes from monster Muleys to eliminate optics. This is an Utah issue being taken to the Utah WB and future rack meetings and likely sportsmen’s - from Utah.
This voting poll is a great excuse for SLAM to say this wasn’t his idea.

I don’t want a western states HOA deciding my future - even if this is too late. I’m planning on attending a few of the RAC meetings and putting my questions on the hand picked agenda.

And once again - I hope those hunters (2015) that wanted optics on muzzleloaders (57%) from Utah vote one way or the other.

I’m going to keep asking the same question “How many votes were from Utah on this Poll” until it is answered?
And I don’t know why there isn’t more support for an answer ?

That's fine. You can disagree all you want, it's your privilege. I don't want a western states HOA deciding my future either, yet here we are with the likes of UT representatives wanting to sell off MY public lands in MY state along with everyone else's.

Only a damn fool thinks that outside influence won't affect them in their small bubble-world states. Just ask anyone who heavily funds the campaign of candidate's that fit their agenda that do not reside in that state and get what they want, little by little, but eventually what they want.

Yeah, this is a UT issue. Good luck...

 

[roadrunner]

I’m going to keep asking the same question “How many votes were from Utah on this Poll” until it is answered?
And I don’t know why there isn’t more support for an answer ?

Because more people are more indifferent than you realize...

 

[dwil311]

David, you’re a BYU fan, aren’t you?

Funny that would somehow undermine someone's credibility based on the school of their preference. I'm an SUU graduate so hold that against me cause that's how debates like this that are based on arbitrary principles should be won...with meaningless content like that.

 

[roadrunner]

It wasn't the fault of the tech it was the lack of principled conservation. It doesn't matter how easy it is to kill, it matters how and why we kill. Killing indiscriminately will always net bad results whether it is done with a spear of bazooka. If people killed from their couch it wouldn't matter if it was a principled kill. We have enough regulations right now but we still have problems not because people aren't following regulations but because they aren't taking the time to consider what actually needs to happen for conservation.

Use lasers from satellites, but whatever you do make sure it makes sense for what the herds need. This isn't a game we need to make hard. This is food free of the bull crap that is being put in them through the mass production. That is becoming more essential as corporate America and corporate production is taking on more of an agenda to drop the global population. We aren't playing a game with the animals. Fairness isn't an ideal that can be achieved without great loss of fairness on one end or the other.

Bait and cameras and scopes don't significantly change the kill rate. They do make a given kill feel easier. But on the whole what is the net change in kill rates with tech? It isn't a change of going from 30% to 80% ...and guides were mentioned of course guides are getting those kill rates....what guide stays in business with less than 70% kill rates. They use all their available resources to make sure they get their clients on a kill... That's how they stay in business. But they were killing at those rates before tech and after tech.

Joe shmoe was still killing at about 10-30% kill rates and you're going to begrudge him if his kill rate maybe went up to 20-40% when you didn't even analyze all the possible variables that may have been a greater contributor to his kill rate increase? That is just absurd and shows how arbitrary it is.

Absolutely tech and bait make a specific kill feel easier. But it doesn't make killing easier for the whole population of hunters doing it. Those who do kill will feel like it was so much easier than grinding it out. But they don't realize how many times it didn't work for the other guys. The animals still smell and hear and know when our routines don't follow the set patterns. I've hunted over bait on private land and I've grinded it out on public land and love both but what I hate is the arbitrary blind ban it attitude of asking government to do something that won't net a meaningful change in outcomes.

Until we teach people why and what should be killed for the benefit of the herds, until we convince other interests of the why and what needs to be done for the wildlife we will continue to see the decline of muledeer and poor age class structures in our herds. It isn't the fault of tech, it is the fault of unprincipled killing and conservation bound by multiple interests. Put the blame where it needs to fall and quit with the fairness bull crap. Killing isn't fair, it is death....but for a lot of us it is clean food that we want for our independence. And does and cow elk are only an ideal source when the herds can support it. I don't see numbers I want to regularly kill does and cows.

So, are you a proponent for reducing tags? People are people and today people rely on regulation to help them "behave"...

I ask because that was one of the criteria NM used to justify the removal of muzzy scopes. And, none of them went to BYU. Trust me

 

[dwil311]

At the end of the day, the ease or difficulty of a kill is not going to improve the quality of life for our herds. Hyper obsessing over it is literal insanity.

Land grabs, suburban and urban development poor target selection of hunters, roadkill and mismanagement of public lands are where changes need to be focused instead of people whining that someone killed an animal in a more visible way than they could have 15yrs ago. Social media has made it seem like everyone is killing. They aren't. But suburbs, highways byways, and mismanaged lands are killing.

 

[dwil311]

So, are you a proponent for reducing tags? People are people and today people rely on regulation to help them "behave"...

I ask because that was one of the criteria NM used to justify the removal of muzzy scopes. And, none of them went to BYU. Trust me

No I am not for tag reductions. I am for increased seasons with fewer tags per season and sorry to disappoint I also didn't go to BYU. But odd that somehow discredits someone in your mind.

 

[dwil311]

So, are you a proponent for reducing tags? People are people and today people rely on regulation to help them "behave"...

I ask because that was one of the criteria NM used to justify the removal of muzzy scopes. And, none of them went to BYU. Trust me

Also people's reliance on regulation is another great place to put our focus and make changes. We don't want a society dependent on government to tell us what we can and can not do. That is not what the founding fathers envisioned for their posterity.

How is it acceptable to you after the blood letting of so many to make it so we didn't have to be?

 

[Vanilla]

Vanilla
I want to ask you the same question on paragraph #2 of your response.
If this would have went the other direction - would you be asking the same question that I’m asking ?
Thank You.

No, I would not be asking that question regardless of the results of the poll. I honestly couldn't care less who is voting in an online forum poll I had nothing to do with starting.

I've already stated multiple times that I'm split on this issue. I see valid arguments on both sides, and neither side has convinced me they are all the way correct. I'm sitting pretty solidly on the fence on this issue, which is odd as I usually have pretty strong opinions on this stuff. So my vote (as a lifelong Utah resident and hunter, FYI) was the 4x option as it felt like a compromise somewhere in the middle.

 

[Vanilla]

Funny that would somehow undermine someone's credibility based on the school of their preference. I'm an SUU graduate so hold that against me cause that's how debates like this that are based on arbitrary principles should be won...with meaningless content like that.

I didn't ask you where you went to school. I asked you if you are a BYU fan. So....are you?

 

[dwil311]

I didn't ask you where you went to school. I asked you if you are a BYU fan. So....are you?

And the relevance?

 

[Betterluckythangood]

This whole thing reminds me of the stories of duck hunters in the early 1900’s.
Most hunters back then had a single shot 10 or 12 gauge shotgun, most of them loaded by the muzzle with blackpowder ( think ‘Dram equivalent’ )still used to describe and labeled on factory shotshell ammo to this day.
Then technology advanced to double guns, repeaters, factory cartridges you could shoot as fast as you could drop them in the breech.
Throw in punt guns throwing out a wall of death and you pick up a hundred ducks with one shot.
Shooting over dumped corn.
Shooting over live decoys tethered to stakes pounded in the pond bottom( how awesome would this be to still be legal since now we have strict limits).
8 gauge shotguns.
6 gauge shotguns.
Even some 4 gauges.
Night shooting and don’t forget even Utah had a April duck season.
All these hunters just about wiped out all the ducks in our flyways.
Fortunately for all of us we had some of our forefathers wise up and see what advancing technology was doing to our flocks.
They got together and put limits to not only number of birds that could get killed each day, but also to the equipment a guy could use to kill his birds.
Those proactive hunters saved birds for us a hundred years later.
Hopefully we can all police ourselves in order to keep our herds strong for another 100 years.

Exactly!

This is about conservation.

It also increases the chances a buck will somehow live to see another season and achieve wallhanger status.

 

[Ballistic]

No, I would not be asking that question regardless of the results of the poll. I honestly couldn't care less who is voting in an online forum poll I had nothing to do with starting.

I've already stated multiple times that I'm split on this issue. I see valid arguments on both sides, and neither side has convinced me they are all the way correct. I'm sitting pretty solidly on the fence on this issue, which is odd as I usually have pretty strong opinions on this stuff. So my vote (as a lifelong Utah resident and hunter, FYI) was the 4x option as it felt like a compromise somewhere in the middle.

FYI
I just about voted for the 4X option as well. The reason I didn’t was because the tech committee was using propaganda based off feelings and not facts on muzzleloader tech -Slams posts of 700 yard antelope and one of his fellow members stating per Slam that his muzzleloader was more lethal than a centerfire rifle. Now -I’m more inclined (when proposed in RAC and future votes) not to vote for 4X restrictions when Slam announced he would recommend elimination of optics to the WB per the MM voting poll. That’s why I’m bothered by out of state votes possibly swaying the agenda. And Slam now has the perfect alibi -MM voting poll….
It’s coming -No turning back now.
RAC meetings and on a ballot or similar.
That’s why I’m on the other side of the fence.
Thanks for your explanation.

 

[roadrunner]

No I am not for tag reductions. I am for increased seasons with fewer tags per season and sorry to disappoint I also didn't go to BYU. But odd that somehow discredits someone in your mind.

No, just a jab at that idiot comment Vanilla made is all.

 

[Bux n Dux]

Exactly!

This is about conservation.

It also increases the chances a buck will somehow live to see another season and achieve wallhanger status.

No it’s not. It increases the chances a buck will survive to the rifle hunt.

Don’t kid yourself. Be more aware to what this is really about.

 

[roadrunner]

And the relevance?

Don't argue with him. It's pointless and not because he's right

He's already spinning the dialog to make it look like he knew what he was doing in order to cover his arrogant ass of being ambiguous.

 

[dwil311]

Exactly!

This is about conservation.

It also increases the chances a buck will somehow live to see another season and achieve wallhanger status.

The problem isn't the ease of kill, it was the unchecked killing on untold birds. No one wants that or has been trying anything remotely close to that with technology.

The problem we face with the herds is not over hunting from humans, so tech is not the bad guy in this equation. We can improve hunter education on why we want to be selective with the animals we kill. And that doesn't mean we don't shoot spikes. As yearlings and old bucks are the most likely to die from winter. Taking them out will have the least impact on future numbers. Taking out the 2-4yr old groups is where the age class structure breaks down. Get more people to buy into that idea and you will begin to see better age classes on more units. Easy fix without needing to do anything drastic with tech.

The other area that is killing animals indiscriminately is suburban and urban development poor land utilization for public lands and roadkill. The rest of all this energy should be directed at those points. Not over whether or not it is easy to kill one buck or one bull for a group of guys. If they were killing excessive numbers then absolutely address the quantity they are killing but the kill rates for the average Joe didn't all of a sudden spike up to the kill rates guides have to maintain in order to keep their jobs as a guide.

If average Joe kill rates went up it was an insignificant rise and not worth throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Vanilla]

And the relevance?

If you have to ask, you're a BYU fan.

Making your bed with roadrunner is a smart thing. He doesn't let his wild emotions overcome logic. Ever. (Insert sarcasm filter here...)

Good luck on convincing the masses by talking down to them. Let me know how that goes!

 

[dwil311]

If you have to ask, you're a BYU fan.

Making your bed with roadrunner is a smart thing. He doesn't let his wild emotions overcome logic. Ever. (Insert sarcasm filter here...)

Good luck on convincing the masses by talking down to them. Let me know how that goes!

Good point. Not a lot of convincing to be done on social media. It is hard to see the supposed most liberty minded segment of the population so dependent on government for their actions. If we want to own the title of largest group of conservationists we shouldn't need to be told what, where and how.

That we aren't looking to solutions that allow for liberty is very telling of where we are as a society.

 

[Vanilla]

Give you liberty, or give you death!

Just don't threaten to shoot up the wildlife board meeting, cowboy.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

No it’s not. It increases the chances a buck will survive to the rifle hunt.

Don’t kid yourself. Be more aware to what this is really about.

That is why I think that laser rangefinders should not be allowed on any big game rifle hunt, in Utah. Then, maybe a buck might somehow survive until the next season an attain wall hanger status.

 

[roadrunner]

Good luck on convincing the masses by talking down to them. Let me know how that goes!

Pot, meet keetle ??

 

[elkassassin]

OK. You win! I'll chalk it all up to "observer fallacy"!

Welcome to the forum! You have got to love it when a new member joins and launches a crusade to convince the world on a particular issue. May I offer some advice? Slow down. Listen. Read posts from others. Ponder. Then respond.

At this rate, you are going to surpass ElkAss's 33K post count by the opener of the rifle hunt!

Kinda Short-Changing Me There Ain't You hawky?

Hawkeye

 

[Vanilla]

Pot, meet keetle ??

Is this where I say “I know you are but what am I?”

Some people live miserable existences man! Put those big boy pants on, runner. You’re going to be just fine. I promise!

 

[dwil311]

OK. You win! I'll chalk it all up to "observer fallacy"!

Welcome to the forum! You have got to love it when a new member joins and launches a crusade to convince the world on a particular issue. May I offer some advice? Slow down. Listen. Read posts from others. Ponder. Then respond.

At this rate, you are going to surpass ElkAss's 33K post count by the opener of the rifle hunt!

Hawkeye

Kind of an arrogant assumption that I have something to learn from you. Perhaps some new thoughts would bring about some needed change instead of the same old same old insanity that hasn't given us anything different.

Tech isn't to blame for low herd counts. Tech isn't killing all the big bucks. There are other factors having a bigger impact. Maybe we should focus on things that actually matter instead of spin our wheels on things that won't render any improvements.

 

[MrShane]

Kind of an arrogant assumption that I have something to learn from you. Perhaps some new thoughts would bring about some needed change instead of the same old same old insanity that hasn't given us anything different.

Tech isn't to blame for low herd counts. Tech isn't killing all the big bucks. There are other factors having a bigger impact. Maybe we should focus on things that actually matter instead of spin our wheels on things that won't render any improvements.

I’m trying to give you the benefit of doubt.
Can you honestly tell us all you TRULY believe tech is not helping kill big game?

 

[dwil311]

I’m trying to give you the benefit of doubt.
Can you honestly tell us all you TRULY believe tech is not helping kill big game?

It helps people see big game. Killing and seeing are not the same thing. For sure the times that a guy kills with tech it feels easier compared to the alternatives. But regular joes aren't killing at a much different rate with it. Either they over depend on tech and tech can not compensate for their failings or they don't know how to be a killer of animals and the muff the shot given or the underestimate their need to focus on the basics to get in on an animal and blow it putting too much confidence in the bait or trail cam pics or whatever.

For sure there were guys that lucked out and killed with tech that maybe wouldn't have without just like there are guys that kill while road hunting...but those are the lottery winners and not the norm.

The norm is to blow your chances and miss tech, bait, trail camera or not and that hasn't changed because killing and and seeing or taking pictures are not the same thing.

Our real enemy is suburban development, roadkill inappropriate public land utilization through drought and the drought for the last 20yrs.

 

[Vanilla]

???

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Tech isn't to blame for low herd counts. Tech isn't killing all the big bucks. There are other factors having a bigger impact.

Well technology has played a big role in this.
What has technology done to help bring our herds back? Nothing not a dam thing.

You better re think your theory because technology has a strong hand in this.

From the early 90s we had over 200,000 hunter’s afield with a little over 400,000 deer on the landscape then a bad winter and they chopped over half the tags.

They continue to cut tags but why?

Everything you have point out technology has played a big part in this, you may not think it does but it has.

We all know the deer herd hasn’t gotten any better right?

Technology is causing this unless you prove it otherwise. Show me real harvest numbers on our deer.
Yeah you can show me the accurate numbers on LE but you sure the hell can’t show me accurate numbers on GS. You can’t because they don’t provide it.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Our real enemy is suburban development, roadkill inappropriate public land utilization through drought and the drought for the last 20yrs.

Sounds like some of those items you just stated has technology in them! just saying.

 

[dwil311]

Well technology has played a big role in this.
What has technology done to help bring our herds back? Nothing not a dam thing.

You better re think your theory because technology has a strong hand in this.

From the early 90s we had over 200,000 hunter’s afield with a little over 400,000 deer on the landscape then a bad winter and they chopped over half the tags.

They continue to cut tags but why?

Everything you have point out technology has played a big part in this, you may not think it does but it has.

We all know the deer herd hasn’t gotten any better right?

Technology is causing this unless you prove it otherwise. Show me real harvest numbers on our deer.
Yeah you can show me the accurate numbers on LE but you sure the hell can’t show me accurate numbers on GS. You can’t because they don’t provide it.

Nothing has brought back the herds...blaming tech for that is just nonsense. The herds are gone because of the drought and for some areas because of suburban development. Look at the population drop from 95...we've pretty much been in drought since then with varying degrees of severity...the deer population crashed and never recovered again. You can't blame tech for that. The only things left are public land grazing with drought conditions and the drought itself.

They've connected drought as a killer for deer...studies suggest that drought can be even worse than hard winters...but combine the two and it's extra lethal.

 

[dwil311]

Sounds like some of those items you just stated has technology in them! just saying.

Not hunting tech. Suburban development and roadkills should be banned. Happy to get behind that.

 

[dwil311]

Well technology has played a big role in this.
What has technology done to help bring our herds back? Nothing not a dam thing.

You better re think your theory because technology has a strong hand in this.

From the early 90s we had over 200,000 hunter’s afield with a little over 400,000 deer on the landscape then a bad winter and they chopped over half the tags.

They continue to cut tags but why?

Everything you have point out technology has played a big part in this, you may not think it does but it has.

We all know the deer herd hasn’t gotten any better right?

Technology is causing this unless you prove it otherwise. Show me real harvest numbers on our deer.
Yeah you can show me the accurate numbers on LE but you sure the hell can’t show me accurate numbers on GS. You can’t because they don’t provide it.

And neither can you. The only thing that has changed is our ability to see what others kill via social media. 15yrs ago we didn't really see it that much...but kill rates were about where they are now ... But now we see it and you think all of a sudden guys are killing where they weren't. also if they are killing bucks that is not killing the herds. Bucks and bulls getting killed does nothing against the herd. Killing does and cows on the other hand that's what drops your population.

 

[roadrunner]

Not hunting tech. Suburban development and roadkills should be banned. Happy to get behind that.

Me too. Roadkills are harsh on the pocketbook...

 

[Elkslayer2015]

So what can we control

Road kill. Is a tough one but they are working on it. They have put up 100 of miles of high fences up and built walk ways under the freeway.

Predators.I hope we are doing are part

Drought. The conservation group have been spending millions of dollars on this.

What have you done to help this ^

You honestly don’t think tech is the problem and in your mind you think it will never be.
Trail cameras is your issue and your Annoyed by it.
No matter what you say they are not coming back anytime soon so let it go.

Technology is making people lazy and you can say whatever the hell you want but it’s the truth.

If you can’t hunt without some tools in your box. Then you probably should start fishing more instead.

 

[dwil311]

So what can we control

Road kill. Is a tough one but they are working on it. They have put up 100 of miles of high fences up and built walk ways under the freeway.

Predators.I hope we are doing are part

Drought. The conservation group have been spending millions of dollars on this.

What have you done to help this ^

You honestly don’t think tech is the problem and in your mind you think it will never be.
Trail cameras is your issue and your Annoyed by it.
No matter what you say they are not coming back anytime soon so let it go.

Technology is making people lazy and you can say whatever the hell you want but it’s the truth.

If you can’t hunt without some tools in your box. Then you probably should start fishing more instead.

Can't disagree that tech makes people lazy but I don't want a government to micromanage that. Tech has given more average Joe's sightings of the big boys and more guys have dedicated time to killing those big guys and so maybe there has been an increase in the killing of big guys over all...but that is standard conservation hunting. Kill the old mature guys and you get another crop the next year. But the overall number of kills of the whole age range isn't dramatically increasing if it is at all increasing.

If you're going to begrudge average Joe's going from killing 10-30% kill rates to 20-40% kill rates...there's something wrong with that in my mind. Guides have always had to get kill rates of 70-100% before tech those numbers didn't really change all that much either.

We should hope every hunter kills a 5yr+ buck and if not that then they settle for an undersized yearling. Those are the are the groups most susceptible to winter kill. Taking from those groups will have the least impact on the age structure.

As far as things that can be done...you're right the things that need to be done...won't be done and so nothing will improve. Ban it all back to spears and nothing will improve until the issue is addressed.

Make more habitat for bighorn sheep and all the communities will improve. Until that gets done animals will be pushed beyond their limits in the heavier drought years and if we continue to get winters like last year they just won't have enough to really get set up for a good recovery until there is enough reduction in overall competition on the range.

 

[dwil311]

So what can we control

Road kill. Is a tough one but they are working on it. They have put up 100 of miles of high fences up and built walk ways under the freeway.

Predators.I hope we are doing are part

Drought. The conservation group have been spending millions of dollars on this.

What have you done to help this ^

You honestly don’t think tech is the problem and in your mind you think it will never be.
Trail cameras is your issue and your Annoyed by it.
No matter what you say they are not coming back anytime soon so let it go.

Technology is making people lazy and you can say whatever the hell you want but it’s the truth.

If you can’t hunt without some tools in your box. Then you probably should start fishing more instead.

Also thats an absurd supposition that one can only hunt with cameras...do you want your government to adopt that mindset? If you can't do it this way....then you don't deserve this...?

I don't rely on tech but I sure as hell don't want to give government the option to say what others can and can not do within reason. We need regulations but these regulations are absurd and arbitrary and not fixing the issue. It's like putting a bandaid on your friend after cutting yourself. Feels good to be doing something but doesn't fix the issue.

 

[roadrunner]

If you can’t hunt without some tools in your box. Then you probably should start fishing more instead.

Leave my fishing tech alone.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

If you're going to begrudge average Joe's going from killing 10-30% kill rates to 20-40% kill rates...there's something wrong with that in my mind. Guides have always had to get kill rates of 70-100% before tech those numbers didn't really change all that much either

LE is not all guided hunts if I remember right only 20% of hunters use guides the other 80% are not guided.

 

[dwil311]

So what can we control

Road kill. Is a tough one but they are working on it. They have put up 100 of miles of high fences up and built walk ways under the freeway.

Predators.I hope we are doing are part

Drought. The conservation group have been spending millions of dollars on this.

What have you done to help this ^

You honestly don’t think tech is the problem and in your mind you think it will never be.
Trail cameras is your issue and your Annoyed by it.
No matter what you say they are not coming back anytime soon so let it go.

Technology is making people lazy and you can say whatever the hell you want but it’s the truth.

If you can’t hunt without some tools in your box. Then you probably should start fishing more instead.

Also lazy hunters don't kill on a regular basis. So why do you care if hunters get lazy? Tech makes guys lazy and that's fine with me. I used to hate roadhunters until I realized they're out of the hills. They're having a great time doing what they want to do. I don't care if they win the lottery from time to time I know how I want to hunt and a roadhunter is no threat to how I want to hunt. Same with most guys using bait and trail cams...they do get lazy and they do get over dependent on their trail cams and baits...same with guys that come across an incredible amount of sign in an area...it is hard to shift our expectations and placing expectations on animals will more often than not lead to disappointment. Guys over depending on tons of sign or trail cameras just have the hardest time wrapping their minds around how and why the animals work because they rely too much on what they see instead of their intuition. A hunter that hunts only what he can see will be right about as often as a broken clock is. A hunter that takes the whole picture in and makes choices based on gut will find more opportunities than the guy limiting it to only what he sees. Most guys don't know how to make that jump.

Make trail cameras legal for regular joes and baiting legal for regular joes and you will have just a little different brand of roadhunter...and they will pose minimal threat. For sure they may get some of the animals I want...but that is how hunting goes. Why would I begrudge someone doing it differently? Just be happy they're getting good food for their family and having a better experience than buying it from the grocery store.

The real travesty is the guys that don't see the good food value of the meat and still want to hunt. We all love antlers but if that is all that you are in this for...keep trap shut and your nose to grindstone cause you're one of the biggest motivators for getting rid of hunting.

 

[dwil311]

LE is not all guided hunts if I remember right only 20% of hunters use guides the other 80% are not guided.

Never said LE was all guides. Just referenced the rates a guide has always had to be at to have any real success as a guide.

Their rates didn't shift all that much...of course this year northern Utah guides may be finding themselves stretched...unless they do a bunch of aerial roundups...not legal...but they do it all too often.

And the struggle of this year won't have anything to do with having gotten rid of tech. But I bet they still pull decent kill rates...I am curious to see how it plays out for them this year.

 

[Bux n Dux]

LE is not all guided hunts if I remember right only 20% of hunters use guides the other 80% are not guided.

Maybe “officially guided”, but the actual number is higher than that. Just because you didn’t pay for it, doesn’t mean you weren’t “guided”. Not many people are capable of 100% DIY and still find consistent. I’d bet that number of hunters needed “help” is north of 50% if they cut tags on a regular basis

 

[Bux n Dux]

We all love antlers but if that is all that you are in this for...keep trap shut and your nose to grindstone cause you're one of the biggest motivators for getting rid of hunting.

Guys chasing antlers and paying for those tags and hunts to get them, are what’s keeping hunting around. Don’t fool yourself. The meat hunters aren’t the reason hunting still exists in world we live in today.

 

[Ballistic]

He really is. You should read his posts a ways back. He thinks I’m in cahoots with the tech committee. That I’m somehow connected to this. That I timed it purposefully…..I’m a father of young kids, who likes to hunt and am a native Utahn. Have zero time in my life to be connected with anyone in the good ol boys club. For F sakes. I made an attempt to capture a glimpse of what the MM crowd wants. I have admitted the data is very limited but it’s better than one dude vehemently spewing that he knows the hearts and minds of utards far and wide about this issue which is exactly what he has been doing for going on two weeks.

Oh my goodness. You poor old utah “native” and a father of young kids.

You have done a good job of pointing out my weaknesses in my other thread as well as this one. And now it’s my turn to enact vengeance just like some religions have allowed………..And it’s even better as I apologized to you and you didn’t accept.
Lol.

“So your data is limited but it’s better than one dude vehemently spewing he knows the hearts and minds of “UTARDS”

Your quote not mine.

I may have purposely offended Hossy with his religious origins but you have offended everyone in the great state of UTAH now.

A state that you obviously don’t care much about - just like your survey - didn’t care about what Utah voters had to say.

You really need to apologize to everyone in utah and reread what you write.

Oh and you’re not biased at all on this but your happy that the numbers showed what the people tuned into this want.

And I’m done with you on a personal level as well.
Just not done with my opinions and facts that will continue to come.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

Mr Dwil,

Can you define Fair Chase for us and how it might factor in to this discussion?

 

[dwil311]

Guys chasing antlers and paying for those tags and hunts to get them, are what’s keeping hunting around. Don’t fool yourself. The meat hunters aren’t the reason hunting still exists in world we live in today.

That's all fine and dandy but if they're too loud and too demanding they will also be the reason it gets banned.

 

[dwil311]

Mr Dwil,

Can you define Fair Chase for us and how it might factor in to this discussion?

No such thing as fair chase. An animal has to die or a hunter goes home empty handed. Nothing fair about those prospects. We want it to be as fast and as painless as possible. That's all that matters.

There is just killing or not killing. Trying to sugar cost it with some victorian ideal is just foolishness and really just facilitates ending hunting. Fairness is a very socialist ideal and wholly subjective which is why there is so much turmoil attempting to satisfy everyone with foolish and arbitrary notions just gets the hornets nest all stirred up.

Stick to the basics. Kill an animal. Enjoy the natural surroundings but don't suggest a moral high ground when at the end of the day an animal is dying.

The only moral high grounds that are not arbitrary are...did you kill it quickly or not? Did you follow the laws?

Trying to suggest killing an animal one way or another is just personal preference. Trying to force your preference on someone else via threat of law is just tyrannical. The origin of national law was not designed to be used this way... point of fact is we were warned against letting it get this way for the very reason that people's annoyances begin leading them on personal crusades to use the threat of law to shift their preference.

That is the beginning of the end of liberty and if you can't connect those dots then so long to the foundation of this nation.

This isn't just about how animals should or shouldn't be hunted, that necessary point was crossed when seasons and tag limits were set. This is how do we handle the annoyances of our neighbors at this point. Do you live and let live or do you go on a crusade demanding everyone hunt the way you do?

So far I am seeing government over reach empowering state government to dicktate more and more.

If you want to see increased herds start your raindance, or fast and pray or whatever gets your juju going. Cause until this drought cycle ends and a real moisture regime kicks in there just isn't enough natural resources for domestic and wild animals to thrive to numbers beyond what we are seeing. We have almost 30yrs of proof and less than half of that with the tech that you claim is making hunting worse

 

[Clyde Hollinger]

I'm so tired of people on here trying to justify keeping scopes on Muzzys. No different then Trail cameras issue.
I only posted that to show there was an increase in success the very next year they allowed scopes. So they really can't use that as an excuse now.

Your absolutely right Slam.

I have been saying this for years, technology is not a good thing when it comes to hunting at all.

Guess what Utah has done for crybabies just like you?? Made special hunts and units that you can hunt just the way you want! All authentic and primitive n stuff! Amazing idea! So go hunt those units and the others will do the same and hunt the muzzy hunt the way they want on the units and hunts they can. Just like being for or against guns. If you don’t like it don’t go there. Seems simple to me.

 

[Bux n Dux]

That's all fine and dandy but if they're too loud and too demanding they will also be the reason it gets banned.

Yeah and there’s clowns like MeatBeater, who based his brand off the meat aspect and wild game cooking. He has exploited wild resources, public land and opportunities so hard, it created so much demand to the point where your “meat hunters” have lost all opportunity and only the trophy hunters can afford to hunt there now. Don’t forget the fact, that they have recruited some absolutely terrible humans into the hunting scene, that are giving hunters a far worse reputation than even the worst trophy hunters could. These same terrible ‘hunters’ also preach “you can’t eat the horns” harder than anyone out there. Documenting every chitbag move they possibly make on social media for the entire anti world to experience every time they get on their phone.

At least the trophy hunters can say they have contributed great amounts over money in their quest for antlers. These shid meat hunters can’t say any of that. Take take take, while creating the best anti hunting material imaginable for these antis to use in their crusade.

 

[dwil311]

Guys chasing antlers and paying for those tags and hunts to get them, are what’s keeping hunting around. Don’t fool yourself. The meat hunters aren’t the reason hunting still exists in world we live in today.

I definitely understand what funds hunting...but do you understand what justifies hunting to the masses? It sure as hell isn't the guys paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a head on a wall....so definitely grateful for people willing to pay more money than I've seen to hunt and I have no animosity to them. But we have to understand how both parts are essential. And degrading and demeaning one function just puts us in the cross hairs of the rest of the public that have mixed feelings about hunting.

 

[Bux n Dux]

I definitely understand what funds hunting...but do you understand what justifies hunting to the masses? It sure as hell isn't the guys paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a head on a wall....so definitely grateful for people willing to pay more money than I've seen to hunt and I have no animosity to them. But we have to understand how both parts are essential. And degrading and demeaning one function just puts us in the cross hairs of the rest of the public that have mixed feelings about hunting.

It doesn’t matter what your reason for hunting is. You could have the purest intent for being a hunter and they will still hate you. They will still want you to quit breathing air. They want you gone. Nothing you do will ever change their mind or opinion. Quit trying to tip toe around their feelings. Fug them and their agenda. Focus on being involved in conservation. Not some ***** in the UK who hates hunters but owns a leather purse, leather shoes and fancy heated leather seats in her car.

 

[Ballistic]

Can't disagree that tech makes people lazy but I don't want a government to micromanage that. Tech has given more average Joe's sightings of the big boys and more guys have dedicated time to killing those big guys and so maybe there has been an increase in the killing of big guys over all...but that is standard conservation hunting. Kill the old mature guys and you get another crop the next year. But the overall number of kills of the whole age range isn't dramatically increasing if it is at all increasing.

If you're going to begrudge average Joe's going from killing 10-30% kill rates to 20-40% kill rates...there's something wrong with that in my mind. Guides have always had to get kill rates of 70-100% before tech those numbers didn't really change all that much either.

We should hope every hunter kills a 5yr+ buck and if not that then they settle for an undersized yearling. Those are the are the groups most susceptible to winter kill. Taking from those groups will have the least impact on the age structure.

As far as things that can be done...you're right the things that need to be done...won't be done and so nothing will improve. Ban it all back to spears and nothing will improve until the issue is addressed.

Make more habitat for bighorn sheep and all the communities will improve. Until that gets done animals will be pushed beyond their limits in the heavier drought years and if we continue to get winters like last year they just won't have enough to really get set up for a good recovery until there is enough reduction in overall competition on the range.

Just speaking of winter kill on the east canyon unit. It was horrible and most of the animals on that unit are history by my counts -hardly an elk left on it.

DWR tags available this year for east canyon private lands with a 6 month hunt = 500 cow elk.

Not to derail this thread but management and conservation are huge issues.

 

[Bux n Dux]

Just speaking of winter kill on the east canyon unit. It was horrible and most of the animals on that unit are history by my counts -hardly an elk left on it.

DWR tags available this year for east canyon private lands with a 6 month hunt = 500 cow elk.

Not to derail this thread but management and conservation are huge issues.

Right off the road last Friday. I saw several other herds as well, every cow had a calf. Lots of deer as well. Piles of bucks… it’s not all doom and gloom. I’m not a local to that unit, but I certainly didn’t struggle to see animals, and I didn’t leave the road.