Muzzle Loader Scope Voting Poll

Would you like to see muzzy scopes do which of the following:

  • Go to 4x or lower

    Votes: 40 14.0%
  • Revert Back to 2016 and earlier regs ( 1x/open sights)

    Votes: 139 48.6%
  • Stay as is with no further advancements in tech.

    Votes: 107 37.4%

  • Total voters
    286
No such thing as fair chase. An animal has to die or a hunter goes home empty handed. Nothing fair about those prospects. We want it to be as fast and as painless as possible. That's all that matters.

There is just killing or not killing. Trying to sugar cost it with some victorian ideal is just foolishness and really just facilitates ending hunting. Fairness is a very socialist ideal and wholly subjective which is why there is so much turmoil attempting to satisfy everyone with foolish and arbitrary notions just gets the hornets nest all stirred up.

Stick to the basics. Kill an animal. Enjoy the natural surroundings but don't suggest a moral high ground when at the end of the day an animal is dying.

The only moral high grounds that are not arbitrary are...did you kill it quickly or not? Did you follow the laws?

Trying to suggest killing an animal one way or another is just personal preference. Trying to force your preference on someone else via threat of law is just tyrannical. The origin of national law was not designed to be used this way... point of fact is we were warned against letting it get this way for the very reason that people's annoyances begin leading them on personal crusades to use the threat of law to shift their preference.

That is the beginning of the end of liberty and if you can't connect those dots then so long to the foundation of this nation.

This isn't just about how animals should or shouldn't be hunted, that necessary point was crossed when seasons and tag limits were set. This is how do we handle the annoyances of our neighbors at this point. Do you live and let live or do you go on a crusade demanding everyone hunt the way you do?

So far I am seeing government over reach empowering state government to dicktate more and more.

If you want to see increased herds start your raindance, or fast and pray or whatever gets your juju going. Cause until this drought cycle ends and a real moisture regime kicks in there just isn't enough natural resources for domestic and wild animals to thrive to numbers beyond what we are seeing. We have almost 30yrs of proof and less than half of that with the tech that you claim is making hunting worse
Now I have heard it all.
That’s your selling point? It won’t sell sorry.

Not with me and definitely not with the wildlife board.

You come on here think you have it all figured out and you clearly don’t.

We have discussed all what you have said. You never once brought up predator control unless I missed it threw all of your books you keep writing.

Remember I’m the annoying one and I will continue to be.
I think the DWR is doing a great job for what they’re dealing with. Do I agree with all of them no. But I definitely don’t agree your outlook on it.

Good day
 
Right off the road last Friday. I saw several other herds as well, every cow had a calf. Lots of deer as well. Piles of bucks… it’s not all doom and gloom. I’m not a local to that unit, but I certainly didn’t struggle to see animals, and I didn’t leave the road.
View attachment 117349
Was it on the east canyon unit itself ?
And that’s great to hear honestly. Early spring - all I could find is carcasses.
 
Guess what Utah has done for crybabies just like you?? Made special hunts and units that you can hunt just the way you want! All authentic and primitive n stuff! Amazing idea! So go hunt those units and the others will do the same and hunt the muzzy hunt the way they want on the units and hunts they can. Just like being for or against guns. If you don’t like it don’t go there. Seems simple to me.
Hahaha go back and read all of my post.

I don’t care which way this goes do you have a tissue apparently I need one.
 
No such thing as fair chase. An animal has to die or a hunter goes home empty handed. Nothing fair about those prospects. We want it to be as fast and as painless as possible. That's all that matters.

There is just killing or not killing. Trying to sugar cost it with some victorian ideal is just foolishness and really just facilitates ending hunting. Fairness is a very socialist ideal and wholly subjective which is why there is so much turmoil attempting to satisfy everyone with foolish and arbitrary notions just gets the hornets nest all stirred up.

Stick to the basics. Kill an animal. Enjoy the natural surroundings but don't suggest a moral high ground when at the end of the day an animal is dying.

The only moral high grounds that are not arbitrary are...did you kill it quickly or not? Did you follow the laws?

Trying to suggest killing an animal one way or another is just personal preference. Trying to force your preference on someone else via threat of law is just tyrannical. The origin of national law was not designed to be used this way... point of fact is we were warned against letting it get this way for the very reason that people's annoyances begin leading them on personal crusades to use the threat of law to shift their preference.

That is the beginning of the end of liberty and if you can't connect those dots then so long to the foundation of this nation.

This isn't just about how animals should or shouldn't be hunted, that necessary point was crossed when seasons and tag limits were set. This is how do we handle the annoyances of our neighbors at this point. Do you live and let live or do you go on a crusade demanding everyone hunt the way you do?

So far I am seeing government over reach empowering state government to dicktate more and more.

If you want to see increased herds start your raindance, or fast and pray or whatever gets your juju going. Cause until this drought cycle ends and a real moisture regime kicks in there just isn't enough natural resources for domestic and wild animals to thrive to numbers beyond what we are seeing. We have almost 30yrs of proof and less than half of that with the tech that you claim is making hunting worse
One other thing to look at the pole going on with muzzleloaders do you really think that is government controlled.
The hunter’s are asking for a lot of this just like trail cameras. Hunters wanted changes on everything we talked about.
 
One other thing to look at the pole going on with muzzleloaders do you really think that is government controlled.
The hunter’s are asking for a lot of this just like trail cameras. Hunters wanted changes on everything we talked about.
Except we didn’t ask for change on the trail cams, bait, lion management changes, etc… Casey Snider took that all into his own hands, bypassed the public process and backdoored the system to push his personal agenda. Was some of it good? Sure. But don’t confuse our current situation with what “we” asked for, versus what we were forced into because someone decided what was best for us. In fact, we didn’t even get an invitation to express our opinion on some of these topics.

Yes it’s all government controlled. We the peasant hunters, have very little to no say in any of this. Even the DWR has their hands tied most of the time. They get forced into **** they don’t want too.
 
Every Cow Had A Calf?

You Best Re-A valuate That One!

I Doubt After This Last Winter There's a Unit Or Area Where Every Cow Has A Calf?

Maybe Every Cow You Seen Had A Calf?



Right off the road last Friday. I saw several other herds as well, every cow had a calf. Lots of deer as well. Piles of bucks… it’s not all doom and gloom. I’m not a local to that unit, but I certainly didn’t struggle to see animals, and I didn’t leave the road.
View attachment 117349
 
Every Cow Had A Calf?

You Best Re-A valuate That One!

I Doubt After This Last Winter There's a Unit Or Area Where Every Cow Has A Calf?

Maybe Every Cow You Seen Had A Calf?
….yes? that was my observation. There’s nothing to re-Evaluate. I saw a cow. She had a calf.

Im not sure what you’re struggling with understanding on my personal observation. I have a witness that can verify what we saw, if you would like to get their opinion on it.
 
Re-Read My Post!

Last Sentence!

Then Think About It!

I'm Not Doubting What You Seen!

I'm Saying Not Every Cow Has A Calf In That Area/Unit!



….yes? that was my observation. There’s nothing to re-Evaluate. I saw a cow. She had a calf.

Im not sure what you’re struggling with understanding on my personal observation. I have a witness that can verify what we saw, if you would like to get their opinion on it.
 
Except we didn’t ask for change on the trail cams, bait, lion management changes, etc… Casey Snider took that all into his own hands, bypassed the public process and backdoored the system to push his personal agenda. Was some of it good? Sure. But don’t confuse our current situation with what “we” asked for, versus what we were forced into because someone decided what was best for us. In fact, we didn’t even get an invitation to express our opinion on some of these topics.
Yes it’s all government controlled. We the peasant hunters, have very little to no say in any of this. Even the DWR has their hands tied most of the time. They get forced into **** they don’t want too.
OK let me explain this to you and everyone else on here.
I don’t go to the rac meetings or the board meetings, because I stand behind all this.

The rac meetings are put in place for a reason. So is the board meeting.
now I have watched all the rack meetings, and all the board meetings for the last 10 years. There is hardly anyone showing up to them.

I find it kind of comical.
We have all the Time in the world to takeoff to go hunting, and all the Time in the world to get on here and ***** and complain about government rules, trail cameras, ect.
But you guys can’t find time to go to any one of these RAC meetings or Board Meetings. come on boys if you want change you need to start showing up?

But I will tell you this much it’s going to take alot more than everyone on here to do anything.
That’s just my 2 cents
 
It doesn’t matter what your reason for hunting is. You could have the purest intent for being a hunter and they will still hate you. They will still want you to quit breathing air. They want you gone. Nothing you do will ever change their mind or opinion. Quit trying to tip toe around their feelings. Fug them and their agenda. Focus on being involved in conservation. Not some ***** in the UK who hates hunters but owns a leather purse, leather shoes and fancy heated leather seats in her car.

For sure the extremes do...I am not taking about winning them over...I'm talking about the middle grounds. About everyone that doesn't hunt hates the antler only mindset, but in that group there is a subset that is willing to support hunting because it brings food to the table...you abandon that ally and you find yourself without one of your favorite pastimes.

This isn't about trying to placate everyone. We all know that isn't a reality. But if you're going to sound off so loudmouthed without any respect to who your allies would be....well then see the mirror and look at the problem.
 
Right off the road last Friday. I saw several other herds as well, every cow had a calf. Lots of deer as well. Piles of bucks… it’s not all doom and gloom. I’m not a local to that unit, but I certainly didn’t struggle to see animals, and I didn’t leave the road.
View attachment 117349

It is never all doom and gloom, but this is a point of reference and not the whole area. There were several groups feeding animals through the winters. The areas that were able to get to the feed fared better...so there will be big holes reflecting that. Good that you saw those...they're the hope for a better year.
 
One other thing to look at the pole going on with muzzleloaders do you really think that is government controlled.
The hunter’s are asking for a lot of this just like trail cameras. Hunters wanted changes on everything we talked about.

Bs hunters were never really asked...hunters didn't get a chance to make themselves known for the trail cameras. And yes this government overreach because it is wholly arbitrary without an ounce of actual
Now I have heard it all.
That’s your selling point? It won’t sell sorry.

Not with me and definitely not with the wildlife board.

You come on here think you have it all figured out and you clearly don’t.

We have discussed all what you have said. You never once brought up predator control unless I missed it threw all of your books you keep writing.

Remember I’m the annoying one and I will continue to be.
I think the DWR is doing a great job for what they’re dealing with. Do I agree with all of them no. But I definitely don’t agree your outlook on it.

Good day

I didn't need to bring up predator control because it's been hashed and rehashed. What I wasn't seeing represented is public land utilization of grazing and the drought. But sure add it to the list.

You're in an echo chamber and echo chambers only work well when they're a minority silenced by all the walls they put up.

I am sure my view won't be tolerated much, but that doesn't make it wrong. When you keep adding arbitrary rule after arbitrary rule and find that nothing meaningful changes for the wildlife then let's revisit what could have been done.

Barring a real wet period between winters springs and summers or a change in grazing practices we will continue to see the same ol same ol cause no one is willing to acknowledge what needs to be done. Too many paying interests that are willing to be blind to it or unaware of the impact they are having on native wildlife.
 
Bs hunters were never really asked...hunters didn't get a chance to make themselves known for the trail cameras. And yes this government overreach because it is wholly arbitrary without an ounce of actual

I didn't need to bring up predator control because it's been hashed and rehashed. What I wasn't seeing represented is public land utilization of grazing and the drought. But sure add it to the list.

You're in an echo chamber and echo chambers only work well when they're a minority silenced by all the walls they put up.

I am sure my view won't be tolerated much, but that doesn't make it wrong. When you keep adding arbitrary rule after arbitrary rule and find that nothing meaningful changes for the wildlife then let's revisit what could have been done.

Barring a real wet period between winters springs and summers or a change in grazing practices we will continue to see the same ol same ol cause no one is willing to acknowledge what needs to be done. Too many paying interests that are willing to be blind to it or unaware of the impact they are having on native wildlife.
Hunters didn't get the chance ahead of the tech commitees proposal -
Hopefully they will when the survey or vote comes out.
 
It is never all doom and gloom, but this is a point of reference and not the whole area. There were several groups feeding animals through the winters. The areas that were able to get to the feed fared better...so there will be big holes reflecting that. Good that you saw those...they're the hope for a better year.
It’s also not as bad as everyone fantasized about it being. If I can just blindly go up a truck road and find that many animals without leaving my truck, I have a hard time thinking I just magically found the only place the remaining survivors are living
 
It’s also not as bad as everyone fantasized about it being. If I can just blindly go up a truck road and find that many animals without leaving my truck, I have a hard time thinking I just magically found the only place the remaining survivors are living

My bet is we will see lots of reports of hunts devoid of deer and elk. I am curious to know what the true numbers are. Friends that live in the area say it isn't real hopeful. But glad you had a different view for the day.
 
My bet is we will see lots of reports of hunts devoid of deer and elk. I am curious to know what the true numbers are. Friends that live in the area say it isn't real hopeful. But glad you had a different view for the day.
there are units right now that are over population objectives by hundreds of mature elk, and there’s guys that will “get off the roads by 15 miles” and still claim there are no animals left on the unit. Reports of no animals don’t mean much these days with as lazy as hunters have become.
 
there are units right now that are over population objectives by hundreds of mature elk, and there’s guys that will “get off the roads by 15 miles” and still claim there are no animals left on the unit. Reports of no animals don’t mean much these days with as lazy as hunters have become.

I don't know many lazy hunters so I can't acknowledge that from my experience. But I've only hunted central and southern Utah so I haven't experienced every group.

There may be units over the projected numbers...but projected for what reasons...and most of those animals do head to private property once the season starts.

In my mind bighorn sheep, muledeer, moose and elk should have priority, but the state doesn't prioritize native wildlife in their case.
 
Bs hunters were never really asked...hunters didn't get a chance to make themselves known for the trail cameras. And yes this government overreach because it is wholly arbitrary without an ounce of actual

I didn't need to bring up predator control because it's been hashed and rehashed. What I wasn't seeing represented is public land utilization of grazing and the drought. But sure add it to the list.

You're in an echo chamber and echo chambers only work well when they're a minority silenced by all the walls they put up.

I am sure my view won't be tolerated much, but that doesn't make it wrong. When you keep adding arbitrary rule after arbitrary rule and find that nothing meaningful changes for the wildlife then let's revisit what could have been done.

Barring a real wet period between winters springs and summers or a change in grazing practices we will continue to see the same ol same ol cause no one is willing to acknowledge what needs to be done. Too many paying interests that are willing to be blind to it or unaware of the impact they are having on native wildlife.
I do not agree how all of that went down.

But every hunter did have their chance to be there at the second board meeting on the matter. I watched that meeting too. Look like only 75 hunter’s showed up and I know for a fact that not everyone was in favor on keeping them.
So if this was an issue the whole board room would have been full and a line out to the parking lot but it wasn’t.
you have over a 100,000 hunter’s in this state you have to have at least half of them showing up to change there minds.
Apparently cameras was an issue for a lot of hunters.

Another thing I haven’t seen anyone trying to get them un banned at any of the RAC meetings.
So you can cry kick and scream all you want but nothing is going to change anytime soon.
 
I do not agree how all of that went down.

But every hunter did have their chance to be there at the second board meeting on the matter. I watched that meeting too. Look like only 75 hunter’s showed up and I know for a fact that not everyone was in favor on keeping them.
So if this was an issue the whole board room would have been full and a line out to the parking lot but it wasn’t.
you have over a 100,000 hunter’s in this state you have to have at least half of them showing up to change there minds.
Apparently cameras was an issue for a lot of hunters.

Another thing I haven’t seen anyone trying to get them un banned at any of the RAC meetings.
So you can cry kick and scream all you want but nothing is going to change anytime soon.

We can't all make it at the times they have these meetings. There wasn't an outreach that could have been had.

And I am sure things won't change. Cameras won't come back and neither will the quality hunting...unless the weather patterns shift enough and or unless they do something about the private grazing on public.
 
We can't all make it at the times they have these meetings. There wasn't an outreach that could have been had.

And I am sure things won't change. Cameras won't come back and neither will the quality hunting...unless the weather patterns shift enough and or unless they do something about the private grazing on public.
I’ll admit - haven’t attended in person to a RAC meeting for a few years- just online. Dedicated hunters -it used to be required so it was forced but was good.
Hunters could get in a line to ask questions and even some vocal outbursts occurred. Today you will be asked to leave -LOL

This didn’t go over well so todays meetings are different.
If you have a question - it has to be pre-approved. I’ve never had a single question approved or brought up. The meetings are “politically correct”. The agenda is covered.

As a hunter I have felt those meetings are somewhat meaningless to the individual -although good info is presented. It would be nice to have some face to face questions asked and answered with some cheers and some boos.

So when you ask hunters to get involved - I thought the RAC process was the ticket. Not so much now -
Great info though.

The hours of service for the dedicated hunter is something that is beneficial for wildlife buts that’s another story.
 
I’ll admit - haven’t attended in person to a RAC meeting for a few years- just online. Dedicated hunters -it used to be required so it was forced but was good.
Hunters could get in a line to ask questions and even some vocal outbursts occurred. Today you will be asked to leave -LOL

This didn’t go over well so todays meetings are different.
If you have a question - it has to be pre-approved. I’ve never had a single question approved or brought up. The meetings are “politically correct”. The agenda is covered.

As a hunter I have felt those meetings are somewhat meaningless to the individual -although good info is presented. It would be nice to have some face to face questions asked and answered with some cheers and some boos.

So when you ask hunters to get involved - I thought the RAC process was the ticket. Not so much now -
Great info though.

The hours of service for the dedicated hunter is something that is beneficial for wildlife buts that’s another story.

With the online resources there is no reason for not finding out the input from hunters.
 
You need a new option...let tech do what tech will do and let hunters hunt. This stupidity over it's unfair is way too similar to the anti hunter antics and dividing hunters left and right over stupid lines that have no real meaning or value. The biggest disadvantage to animals is snow. Make it illegal to hunt in snow if you're going to be about unfair advantages. Every snow storm harvest rates jump higher than any tech advancement.

People who love the game of football set up rules and limits. I love hunting and I am more than fine with setting limits. So don’t argue whether there are any limits. Argue where they should be set.
 
But You Do Realize We Have SPEED Limits In DRATville,Right?:D

People who love the game of football set up rules and limits. I love hunting and I am more than fine with setting limits. So don’t argue whether there are any limits. Argue where they should be set.
 
People who love the game of football set up rules and limits. I love hunting and I am more than fine with setting limits. So don’t argue whether there are any limits. Argue where they should be set.

I said we passed reasonable regulations a long time ago...asking for more and more tips the balance of power toward the state and away from the individual. Reasonable tag limits to benefit the herds, makes sense. Reasonable road closures to improve safety zones for the herds makes sense.

Getting nitpicky about how a guy kills an animal makes no sense. It is just micromanaging and is ultimately arbitrary. We have been arbitrary in breaking it into seasons so the various groups can have their experience. But going beyond it and micromanaging it down to such a cellular level is just bad precedent.

We have to have regulations and we have to have government and this isn't radical talk...this is what the founding fathers discussed setting up the nation...how do you keep it in check...the only consistent way is through a proper personal empowerment. The individual can not be all powerful, nor can they be wholly dependent on the government. True liberty lies in a check of self empowerment and government limited by a moral people.

Asking for government to do more and more shifts the balance of our powers further and further from a healthy self empowerment. Sure it may not backfire today or tomorrow...but the national trend is fewer and fewer allies for hunters. So what happens in 10 or 15yrs with all our arbitrary micromanaging?

One thing that doesn't happen is an improvement of hunting opportunity. The herds are not going to recover until the drought cycle ends or public land grazing takes a backseat to wildlife. The weather patterns improving being the more likely outcome...but how likely? Did we break the cycle last winter...are we on a new trend line...we won't know until another 5yrs or more. But whether a guy uses a trail camera or not isn't going to make more does or cows pregnant. Whether or not a guy can shoot over 300yrds with a muzzleloader isn't going to improve the fawn and calf mortality rates.

Like you said....focus on where we can make a difference. Focus on how we educate people about inappropriate suburban development. It makes our souls sick to see houses being developed the way they are. It makes it hard for wildlife to survive. Ultimately almost every species is suffering in varying degrees because of our manifest destiny approach to land development.

Focus people on why highways and freeways and byways need to have over and underpasses. This isn't just about protecting wildlife, it is also about protecting human life. We don't have to have that collision rate if we would just accept it needs to be a function of roads. Dropping that death rate will save thousands of deer lives and give more opportunities to hunters and more importantly save human lives and insurance costs.

As always do something about predators and if you have the resources do what you can to improve habitat. Make changes where changes will bring positive change. Making changes where no significant improvements can come is just foolishness.

Also equating hunting to a game is the end of hunting. If it is just recreation there isn't enough justification to save it. The middle of the road doesn't like it well enough to tolerate some boys trying to prove something. If it's about meat then we earn the respect of the middle of the road and we'll really most of the hunting population is in it for meat. Killing for a head may get a selection of the population jacked...and that portion may have the highest incomes and as given individuals may pay more than a regular joe like me...but they also repulse more than they win. Conservation and meat hunting are what justifies hunting to the masses. Definitely head hunters give to the conservation aspect, but the bad taste in the majority of people's mouths when they don't use the meat is what they try to stereotype all hunters as in order to get rid of hunting.

Hunting is not a sport. It is killing. While I am a meat hunter...I am also a conservationist. So I believe in letting them grow. Only makes sense...you get more meat and it cooks about as great as a young deer too, just has bigger antlers. And hunting in today's corporate America is being more essential as we have lower and lower confidence in what mass processes are doing to our foods. Focus on what matters.

Habitat. Tags. Public knowledge of wildlife. Going beyond that just gets lost in the weeds of subjectivity and removes individual empowerment from our hands. We really, really don't want to find ourselves hand tied with years and years of arbitrary quibbling and squabbling.
 
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I said we passed reasonable regulations a long time ago...asking for more and more tips the balance of power toward the state and away from the individual. Reasonable tag limits to benefit the herds, makes sense. Reasonable road closures to improve safety zones for the herds makes sense.

Getting nitpicky about how a guy kills an animal makes no sense. It is just micromanaging and is ultimately arbitrary. We have been arbitrary in breaking it into seasons so the various groups can have their experience. But going beyond it and micromanaging it down to such a cellular level is just bad precedent.

We have to have regulations and we have to have government and this isn't radical talk...this is what the founding fathers discussed setting up the nation...how do you keep it in check...the only consistent way is through a proper personal empowerment. The individual can not be all powerful, nor can they be wholly dependent on the government. True liberty lies in a check of self empowerment and government limited by a moral people.

Asking for government to do more and more shifts the balance of our powers further and further from a healthy self empowerment. Sure it may not backfire today or tomorrow...but the national trend is fewer and fewer allies for hunters. So what happens in 10 or 15yrs with all our arbitrary micromanaging?

One thing that doesn't happen is an improvement of hunting opportunity. The herds are not going to recover until the drought cycle ends or public land grazing takes a backseat to wildlife. The weather patterns improving being the more likely outcome...but how likely? Did we break the cycle last winter...are we on a new trend line...we won't know until another 5yrs or more. But whether a guy uses a trail camera or not isn't going to make more does or cows pregnant. Whether or not a guy can shoot over 300yrds with a muzzleloader isn't going to improve the fawn and calf mortality rates.

Like you said....focus on where we can make a difference. Focus on how we educate people about inappropriate suburban development. It makes our souls sick to see houses being developed the way they are. It makes it hard for wildlife to survive. Ultimately almost every species is suffering in varying degrees because of our manifest destiny approach to land development.

Focus people on why highways and freeways and byways need to have over and underpasses. This isn't just about protecting wildlife, it is also about protecting human life. We don't have to have that collision rate if we would just accept it needs to be a function of roads. Dropping that death rate will save thousands of deer lives and give more opportunities to hunters and more importantly save human lives and insurance costs.

As always do something about predators and if you have the resources do what you can to improve habitat. Make changes where changes will bring positive change. Making changes where no significant improvements can come is just foolishness.
I do agree with you about three muzzleloader definitions is micromanaging.
Just copy Idaho and be done with it.
 
I do agree with you about three muzzleloader definitions is micromanaging.
Just copy Idaho and be done with it.
I mean for real...all this easy modern hunting bull crap is just too unfair. If you're not hunting with a spear you're the reason we don't have big bucks and bulls.
 
I mean for real...all this easy modern hunting bull crap is just too unfair. If you're not hunting with a spear you're the reason we don't have big bucks and bulls.
You don’t need to use a spear. You could always just pick up your $5000 rifle with your $3000 scope and shoot deer at 1000 yards during rifle season. I know not having the ability to shoot 500 yards with your “PRIMITIVE” muzzleloader is a major disadvantage and inconvenience for you.
 
I said we passed reasonable regulations a long time ago...asking for more and more tips the balance of power toward the state and away from the individual. Reasonable tag limits to benefit the herds, makes sense. Reasonable road closures to improve safety zones for the herds makes sense.

Getting nitpicky about how a guy kills an animal makes no sense. It is just micromanaging and is ultimately arbitrary. We have been arbitrary in breaking it into seasons so the various groups can have their experience. But going beyond it and micromanaging it down to such a cellular level is just bad precedent.

We have to have regulations and we have to have government and this isn't radical talk...this is what the founding fathers discussed setting up the nation...how do you keep it in check...the only consistent way is through a proper personal empowerment. The individual can not be all powerful, nor can they be wholly dependent on the government. True liberty lies in a check of self empowerment and government limited by a moral people.

Asking for government to do more and more shifts the balance of our powers further and further from a healthy self empowerment. Sure it may not backfire today or tomorrow...but the national trend is fewer and fewer allies for hunters. So what happens in 10 or 15yrs with all our arbitrary micromanaging?

One thing that doesn't happen is an improvement of hunting opportunity. The herds are not going to recover until the drought cycle ends or public land grazing takes a backseat to wildlife. The weather patterns improving being the more likely outcome...but how likely? Did we break the cycle last winter...are we on a new trend line...we won't know until another 5yrs or more. But whether a guy uses a trail camera or not isn't going to make more does or cows pregnant. Whether or not a guy can shoot over 300yrds with a muzzleloader isn't going to improve the fawn and calf mortality rates.

Like you said....focus on where we can make a difference. Focus on how we educate people about inappropriate suburban development. It makes our souls sick to see houses being developed the way they are. It makes it hard for wildlife to survive. Ultimately almost every species is suffering in varying degrees because of our manifest destiny approach to land development.

Focus people on why highways and freeways and byways need to have over and underpasses. This isn't just about protecting wildlife, it is also about protecting human life. We don't have to have that collision rate if we would just accept it needs to be a function of roads. Dropping that death rate will save thousands of deer lives and give more opportunities to hunters and more importantly save human lives and insurance costs.

As always do something about predators and if you have the resources do what you can to improve habitat. Make changes where changes will bring positive change. Making changes where no significant improvements can come is just foolishness.

Also equating hunting to a game is the end of hunting. If it is just recreation there isn't enough justification to save it. The middle of the road doesn't like it well enough to tolerate some boys trying to prove something. If it's about meat then we earn the respect of the middle of the road and we'll really most of the hunting population is in it for meat. Killing for a head may get a selection of the population jacked...and that portion may have the highest incomes and as given individuals may pay more than a regular joe like me...but they also repulse more than they win. Conservation and meat hunting are what justifies hunting to the masses. Definitely head hunters give to the conservation aspect, but the bad taste in the majority of people's mouths when they don't use the meat is what they try to stereotype all hunters as in order to get rid of hunting.

Hunting is not a sport. It is killing. While I am a meat hunter...I am also a conservationist. So I believe in letting them grow. Only makes sense...you get more meat and it cooks about as great as a young deer too, just has bigger antlers. And hunting in today's corporate America is being more essential as we have lower and lower confidence in what mass processes are doing to our foods. Focus on what matters.

Habitat. Tags. Public knowledge of wildlife. Going beyond that just gets lost in the weeds of subjectivity and removes individual empowerment from our hands. We really, really don't want to find ourselves hand tied with years and years of arbitrary quibbling and squabbling.
let me ask you a question who has caused all the rules and regulations? Now be honest.
 
let me ask you a question who has caused all the rules and regulations? Now be honest.

And at what point does the incessant add on stop? We have bad actors for sure...how much more illegal do we want to make the illegal things they do?

These new regulations aren't changing their behavior. They aren't making them stop their behavior. Trying to set laws to keep bad actors at some point goes from reasonable to slippery slope...how close to slippery slope do you want to be?

We passed reasonable some time ago. Focus on habitat, and public education and the impact on all animals and ourselves with this out of control urban and suburban development and improving over and underpasses and predator control. We have to focus on the things that matter or we will find ourselves lost in quagmire of ideals and well-wishes that have no real relevance to the reality we face today.

We all yearn for the days that a guy could go hunting and not see another human for weeks or days or whatever and the bulls and bucks are huge and everywhere, but that just isn't going to happen anytime soon with all the other factors in place.

Attempting to make hunting some level of victorian ideal as if they understood wildlife is just insane. There is hardly any value left over from their age that holds weight today. They set a great beginning but trying to hold things to their ideals is just nonsense.

Wildlife don't operate the way they thought. Genetics don't work they believed...speaking of slippery slopes it was their belief of genetics and purity that led to some of the greatest losses of life history knows.

It isn't yesterday and no matter how badly we want to get back to it, it isn't coming. The best we can do is to empower tomorrow to be better than today. We can not do that by hogtying ourselves to yesterday. Great foundation to start but if you never grow beyond that foundation you can not see all that could be had.

My hope is that at sometime we as sportsmen wake up to the reality that it is how we expect government to operate in our lives that is reflected back on us at the national level.

We need government, but we need to live and let live even if it means we are annoyed. Demanding everyone embrace our preference and using government to force it is a welcome to slippery slope slippage that we were warned about by the founding fathers.

And if you can toss that aside because we live in a republican state and it will never be that bad everyone wants what is best ultimately...then you have learned nothing about humanity through the ages.

Slippery slopes are slippery for all, not just the ones that slipped historically. It was the very fact that they couldn't see the slope they were slipping on that they slipped and if we are arrogant enough to think we are set up better than them or that we somehow are smarter and better prepared than them then we have already fallen on the same slope and just haven't hit the bottom yet.
 
I mean for real...all this easy modern hunting bull crap is just too unfair. If you're not hunting with a spear you're the reason we don't have big bucks and bulls.
I’m really glad to see you have turned your life around and accepted the way things should be.
I’m proud of you.
I will be even be more proud of you if you self-regulate yourself and go back to a 3x9 scope on your rifle, a 1x scope on your muzzy, and keep any archery shots to 60 yards or so and less.
A little less tech in all our lives will benefit not only the wildlife but 100% make you a better hunter.
Is that a bad thing?
 
You don’t need to use a spear. You could always just pick up your $5000 rifle with your $3000 scope and shoot deer at 1000 yards during rifle season. I know not having the ability to shoot 500 yards with your “PRIMITIVE” muzzleloader is a major disadvantage and inconvenience for you.

It's all subjective. How far a guy can kill an animal matters less than how many does have fawns and how many fawns grow up. We have lower survival rates because of predators and drought and resource competition with domestic livestock.

Each time a bovine has to move it is a calculated assessment on the impact of the offspring and market price. We know this from the impact wolves have on bovine. The same is true for deer and elk.

Livestock bump them out of the way, causing fractional stressors. Sure it isn't predator stress like a wolf...but all the factors add up. Drought stress. Competition stress. Winter stress. Predator stress. Then you begin to see a clearer picture on why we aren't improving numbers.

What a guy uses to kill is less important than how long he hangs out adding to the stresses animals face.

We aren't killing huge percentages of bucks in a given unit. We aren't killing high quantities of does. At the end of the day there are factors more influential than what human hunters are using to kill on the wildlife.
 
I’m really glad to see you have turned your life around and accepted the way things should be.
I’m proud of you.
I will be even be more proud of you if you self-regulate yourself and go back to a 3x9 scope on your rifle, a 1x scope on your muzzy, and keep any archery shots to 60 yards or so and less.
A little less tech in all our lives will benefit not only the wildlife but 100% make you a better hunter.
Is that a bad thing?

Nope way too modern...hell spears are giving humans too much of an edge....if you can't run it down and knife it then you're no man and definitely can not call yourself a hunter.
 
I’m really glad to see you have turned your life around and accepted the way things should be.
I’m proud of you.
I will be even be more proud of you if you self-regulate yourself and go back to a 3x9 scope on your rifle, a 1x scope on your muzzy, and keep any archery shots to 60 yards or so and less.
A little less tech in all our lives will benefit not only the wildlife but 100% make you a better hunter.
Is that a bad thing?

No I think the less we rely on all kinds of things and stick to the basics will for sure make us all better hunters. No denying that.

I don't want a government forcing me one way or the other. I don't believe in continually pushing state mandates regardless their appeal. If it is purely arbitrary and not actually making a difference for the animals then why allow tyranny to over take us?

What we have to realize is that just because we go through government to achieve some new law or regulation does not mean we are not on a personal path any better than Napoleon...we are only just more impotent in our charisma and ability to effect those changes. It is the same tyranny.

Road closures to create safe space for ungulates makes sense because human traffic does cause stress. Minimizing points of contact does improve habitat preference for them. Good regulation. Minimizing kill quotas makes sense. You can't kill off too many if you want some for tomorrow...good regulation makes sense.

What you kill and the tools you use for scouting with in a very minimized quota is so much more arbitrary and at that point relinquishes our self control more over to the state.

Maybe today or tomorrow it isn't a bad thing. Maybe 10yrs we are still golden...but it is the expectation that you can get what you want through government force that is so very destructive to individuals and not worth playing with once reasonable regulations have been achieved.

So some annoyances are worth dealing with in place of dealing with a culture of looking to government to fix it. Work with making good content for why people should hunt your way, don't force it by law or if you do be willing to pay for the generational degradation that follows.
 
And at what point does the incessant add on stop? We have bad actors for sure...how much more illegal do we want to make the illegal things they do?

These new regulations aren't changing their behavior. They aren't making them stop their behavior. Trying to set laws to keep bad actors at some point goes from reasonable to slippery slope...how close to slippery slope do you want to be?

We passed reasonable some time ago. Focus on habitat, and public education and the impact on all animals and ourselves with this out of control urban and suburban development and improving over and underpasses and predator control. We have to focus on the things that matter or we will find ourselves lost in quagmire of ideals and well-wishes that have no real relevance to the reality we face today.

We all yearn for the days that a guy could go hunting and not see another human for weeks or days or whatever and the bulls and bucks are huge and everywhere, but that just isn't going to happen anytime soon with all the other factors in place.

Attempting to make hunting some level of victorian ideal as if they understood wildlife is just insane. There is hardly any value left over from their age that holds weight today. They set a great beginning but trying to hold things to their ideals is just nonsense.

Wildlife don't operate the way they thought. Genetics don't work they believed...speaking of slippery slopes it was their belief of genetics and purity that led to some of the greatest losses of life history knows.

It isn't yesterday and no matter how badly we want to get back to it, it isn't coming. The best we can do is to empower tomorrow to be better than today. We can not do that by hogtying ourselves to yesterday. Great foundation to start but if you never grow beyond that foundation you can not see all that could be had.

My hope is that at sometime we as sportsmen wake up to the reality that it is how we expect government to operate in our lives that is reflected back on us at the national level.

We need government, but we need to live and let live even if it means we are annoyed. Demanding everyone embrace our preference and using government to force it is a welcome to slippery slope slippage that we were warned about by the founding fathers.

And if you can toss that aside because we live in a republican state and it will never be that bad everyone wants what is best ultimately...then you have learned nothing about humanity through the ages.

Slippery slopes are slippery for all, not just the ones that slipped historically. It was the very fact that they couldn't see the slope they were slipping on that they slipped and if we are arrogant enough to think we are set up better than them or that we somehow are smarter and better prepared than them then we have already fallen on the same slope and just haven't hit the bottom yet.
That is your Answer?
I figured you would write a novel. This has nothing at all to do with bringing the herds back at all period.
Technology is really being looked at for one reason. slowing down the curve on it period. You and I both know it has been getting out of hand. but you are to blame in this just as much as me. except it or not I don't really care.

Have you helped on any wildlife restoration projects to improve our herds?
 
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That is your Answer?
I figured you would write a novel. This has nothing at all to do with bringing the herds back at all period.
Technology is really being looked at for one reason. slowing down the curve on it period. You and I both know it has been getting out of hand. but you are to blame in this just as much as me. except it or not I don't really care.

Have you helped on any wildlife restoration projects to improve our herds?
I dumped out some old grain this morning to help Momma Quail and her little tribe of chicks out.
* I realize your comment was not directed to me.
 
That is your Answer?
I figured you would write a novel. This has nothing at all to do with bringing the herds back at all period.
Technology is really being looked at for one reason. slowing down the curve on it period. You and I both know it has been getting out of hand. but you are to blame in this just as much as me. except it or not I don't really care.

Have you helped on any wildlife restoration projects to improve our herds?

Re-read:

At least you are admitting it is an arbitrary preference. Thank you for that.

Always good to use the threat of government to achieve an arbitrary agenda. No problems ever came about from increasing state or federal powers on the fickle whims of the masses.
 
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That is your Answer?
I figured you would write a novel. This has nothing at all to do with bringing the herds back at all period.
Technology is really being looked at for one reason. slowing down the curve on it period. You and I both know it has been getting out of hand. but you are to blame in this just as much as me. except it or not I don't really care.

Have you helped on any wildlife restoration projects to improve our herds?


And yes I do the dedicated hunter program and pull weeds when I'm in the hills. My resources aren't as big as some between family and work. So I do what I can where I can and hope to do more with time.
 
For the 500th time-
THIS IS NOT ABOUT SAVING BUCKS

Should we allow technology to evolve into hydraulic draw assist and spring type launching systems on bows and still call it "Archery"?
 
For the 500th time-
THIS IS NOT ABOUT SAVING BUCKS

Should we allow technology to evolve into hydraulic draw assist and spring type launching systems on bows and still call it "Archery"?

I don't really care where tech goes. I care what we as a society do with our suburban development and our roads and the competition the animals have on the range and predator numbers.

This isn't a game. It is killing and it is getting good clean meat and the antlers to remember the life that was lost so that my family can have clean food.

And I care what our attitudes are about government action in our lives. Tech doesn't factor in there. If it was tech allowing a guy to kill 500 animals then there's a problem not with the tech but the quantity he is killing. No one is killing beyond their allotted tags. Most are still not killing.
 
For the 500th time-
THIS IS NOT ABOUT SAVING BUCKS

Should we allow technology to evolve into hydraulic draw assist and spring type launching systems on bows and still call it "Archery"?
yes he wants it! He don’t care and he sure the hell doesn’t understand.

He is so upset over trail cameras. Because he has no time to scout or go to the RAC meetings or the board meetings. But he sure has enough time to defend technology on here.?
 
Hey dwil!

I'm Just RAZZIN PUNK!

Just A Jab!

That's Not How I Hunt!

I'm Always Way Behind All The GADGETRY!

And Too DAMN Old To Learn How To Run It!





Go for it. I still like getting close and learning the animals but I won't stop ya. And I don't want government to either. Once you're done, you're out of the woods and I can have it to myself.
 
yes he wants it! He don’t care and he sure the hell doesn’t understand.

He is so upset over trail cameras. Because he has no time to scout or go to the RAC meetings or the board meetings. But he sure has enough time to defend technology on here.?

You don't get it. It isn't about what I want to use or want others to be able to use. It is about keeping ourselves in check. If we don't check ourselves we will be wrecked on the trash heap of history with all those who assumed government was a stable system to rely upon.

And you're right I have been spending too much time on here, but I am at work and still get work done. Could be a bit more efficient but the job still gets done. And this ship needs correcting. Left and right have become way too comfortable with centralized powers. We are on the verge of finding out how destructive our expectations for constancy are.
 
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Hey PUNK!

All I Wanna Do Is Push A Button!:D
Pushing a button will be old school when this AI technology hits the hunting world.
All we'll have to do is "Think" about ignition on the primers or strings and the projectile, whatever it may become will be on it's way directly into the boiler room.

And the saddest part?
The animals haven't evolved one bit to counter it.
 
You don't get it. It isn't about what I want to use or want others to be able to use. It is about keeping ourselves in check. If we don't check ourselves we will be wrecked on the trash heap of history with all those who assumed government was a stable system to rely upon.

And you're right I have been spending too much time on here, but I am at work and still get work done. Could be a bit more efficient but the job still gets done. And this ship needs correcting. Left and right have become way too comfortable with centralized powers. We are on the verge of finding out how destructive our expectations for constancy are.
No you don’t get it. I see it perfectly clear.
 
If we don't check ourselves we will be wrecked on the trash heap of history with all those who assumed government was a stable system to rely upon.
You said it! This is what I mean by slowing the curve. If we don’t do something now it will be a wreck. We can’t allow it to get out of hand just because we all want technology. Because we sure the hell don’t need it to be successful.
 
You said it! This is what I mean by slowing the curve. If we don’t do something now it will be a wreck. We can’t allow it to get out of hand just because we all want technology. Because we sure the hell don’t need it to be successful.

I would rather have out of hand tech with our kill rates than people over dependent on centralized powers. One will annoy people and the other will destroy nations and lives.
 
I would rather have out of hand tech with our kill rates than people over dependent on centralized powers. One will annoy people and the other will destroy nations and lives.
Looks like you have it all figured out. good luck on your hunt this fall and be safe.
 
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True!

But The Deer Have De-Volved!

Most Of Them Don't Live Long Enough To Get Any Smarts To Them Anymore!

Pushing a button will be old school when this AI technology hits the hunting world.
All we'll have to do is "Think" about ignition on the primers or strings and the projectile, whatever it may become will be on it's way directly into the boiler room.

And the saddest part?
The animals haven't evolved one bit to counter it.
 
If they take away scopes or allow lower magnification it won’t make a difference just make you feel good.
I have two Muzzleloader’s one still has the 1X scope still on it and the other one is open sites.
So either way it goes I won’t loose any sleep over it.
 
I've Got Some Evolution As Well!

I Can't See The Front Sight On My HAWKENS Though!

Filed It Down To A Hair Back In The Day!

Accurate SOB!

At Least Back When I Could See The Front Sight!:D



I have two Muzzleloader’s one still has the 1X scope still on it and the other one is open sites.
So either way it goes I won’t loose any sleep over it.
 
It depends how you look at it as far as deer living long enough. Some would say because of the long range hunters they’re taking out the older class. Others would say they’re taking out to many young bucks not getting the chance to grow old. I have the idea it’s somewhere in the middle.There is one more probability and that we’re harvesting older class deer that would have died from old age/ winter/habitat anyway.
 
I Don't Think You'll Ever Have To Worry About How Many Bucks Are Dieing Of Old Age In This State!



It depends how you look at it as far as deer living long enough. Some would say because of the long range hunters they’re taking out the older class. Others would say they’re taking out to many young bucks not getting the chance to grow old. I have the idea it’s somewhere in the middle.There is one more probability and that we’re harvesting older class deer that would have died from old age/ winter/habitat anyway.
 
True comment.

There isn't an old buck or bull alive in this state that doesn't already have a nickname and a price tag on it's head.

I picked up sheds that made my head spin and no one even knew the bulls. They were well into their maturity stages and had plenty of time to be identified and named. Just as shed hunting goes no one gets an eye on all of them.
 
So?

You've Got A Secret Spot No-one Knows About?

I picked up sheds that made my head spin and no one even knew the bulls. They were well into their maturity stages and had plenty of time to be identified and named. Just as shed hunting goes no one gets an eye on all of them.
 
This thread is boring, unproductive and a waste of time, 3 days before start of UT archery hunt - and everybody still wants to beat a dead horse. I think there's more productive discussions we could be having that actually relate to what I believe MM is all about. Of course, that's just my opinion
 
So?

You've Got A Secret Spot No-one Knows About?

There are lots of secret spots that people overlook for one reason or another. Not as many as we would like for sure. But there always bucks and bulls that go unseen and die of old age...I forgot one of the elk sheds was off a bull in regression.
 
There are lots of secret spots that people overlook for one reason or another. Not as many as we would like for sure. But there always bucks and bulls that go unseen and die of old age...I forgot one of the elk sheds was off a bull in regression.
You're right, it does happen occasionally
 
We all yearn for the days that a guy could go hunting and not see another human for weeks or days or whatever and the bulls and bucks are huge and everywhere, but that just isn't going to happen anytime soon with all the other factors in place.

If you’ve convinced yourself that this day ever existed, I think we’ve identified a bigger issue here. Completely unrealistic beliefs of where we are versus where we were, and where we could be going.

I’m going to say this succinctly: No generation in Utah had what you just described. Ever.
 
If you’ve convinced yourself that this day ever existed, I think we’ve identified a bigger issue here. Completely unrealistic beliefs of where we are versus where we were, and where we could be going.

I’m going to say this succinctly: No generation in Utah had what you just described. Ever.

The mountain men?
 
Well!

They Do!

Or They Die!

Most Of Them Die!

The Percentage Of Bucks & Bulls Dieing Of Old Age In This State Is Such A Low Number It's Beyond Belief!



I would say it is inevitable and every year. There are more animals out there. They gravitate towards the overlooked areas especially during the hunts
 
Well!

They Do!

Or They Die!

Most Of Them Die!

The Percentage Of Bucks & Bulls Dieing Of Old Age In This State Is Such A Low Number It's Beyond Belief!

I mean that's just generally true everywhere. It's a rare thing for an animal to get to an age that it just dies from age itself. Most are killed by winters or drought or predators. Even if we don't hunt them, not very many love to a ripe old age and die in their sleep in the summer.

Ideally on a well managed property you have very few that get to that point. As they stop being productive after a certain point. Bucks and bulls become less virile after their peak development but still take up valuable resources that could have been given to younger more virile animals. Taking them out after their peak is the ideal to go for.

With our winters and the drought not very many bucks will make it beyond 6yrs old...for sure some do, but not many. Getting guys to buy into when to take a deer would be much more beneficial for conservation than doing something about how an animal is killed. I'd be up for getting hunters educated on carrying capacity, biological energy for reproduction...how to minimize it...just good conservation principles in general that the largest group of "conservationists" should know in general to be effective at that title.
 

They were over crowded then? There were pumpkin patches of people running around then too?

Obviously my initial comment about a big buck or bull everywhere and no one for weeks was a wee exaggerative. And definitely the mountain men were looking over their shoulders for griz and natives. But they also did go for long periods of time not seeing other people and spoke of finding abundant game. To suggest otherwise is worse than my exaggeration.
 
This thread is boring, unproductive and a waste of time, 3 days before start of UT archery hunt - and everybody still wants to beat a dead horse. I think there's more productive discussions we could be having that actually relate to what I believe MM is all about. Of course, that's just my opinion

You need to understand that UT thrives on committee discussion with topics that drag on forever, finally reaching the conclusion and action that common sense would've taken care of months or even years prior.
 
Most are killed by winters or drought or predators. Even if we don't hunt them, not very many love to a ripe old age and die in their sleep in the summer.
Females Fawns calf's Yes Males No.
If you shed hunt then you know this is not true at all. I have many friends that do shed hunt including my self and they will tell you the same thing.
We all shed hunt winter range area. Nice try!
 
They were over crowded then? There were pumpkin patches of people running around then too?

Obviously my initial comment about a big buck or bull everywhere and no one for weeks was a wee exaggerative. And definitely the mountain men were looking over their shoulders for griz and natives. But they also did go for long periods of time not seeing other people and spoke of finding abundant game. To suggest otherwise is worse than my exaggeration.

“Abundant game” does not equal “big bucks and big bulls everywhere.”

If I have to spell out every little obvious thing, you might be a BYU fan. (In your best Jeff Foxworthy voice)

Better luck next time. I’ll reiterate, no generation in Utah has ever experienced what you described. Ever. It’s a historical fact, not an opinion.
 
“Abundant game” does not equal “big bucks and big bulls everywhere.”

If I have to spell out every little obvious thing, you might be a BYU fan. (In your best Jeff Foxworthy voice)

Better luck next time. I’ll reiterate, no generation in Utah has ever experienced what you described. Ever. It’s a historical fact, not an opinion.

Alright captain literal. Talk about BYU stereotypes. Annoying as hell and take everything literal.
 
“Abundant game” does not equal “big bucks and big bulls everywhere.”

If I have to spell out every little obvious thing, you might be a BYU fan. (In your best Jeff Foxworthy voice)

Better luck next time. I’ll reiterate, no generation in Utah has ever experienced what you described. Ever. It’s a historical fact, not an opinion.

:rolleyes:
 
Females Fawns calf's Yes Males No.
If you shed hunt then you know this is not true at all. I have many friends that do shed hunt including my self and they will tell you the same thing.
We all shed hunt winter range area. Nice try!

We are one of the predators in killed by predators...but even in areas where we are not a predator in the equation that statement is true.
 

±7KH3HULRGRI([SORUHUVDQG7UDSSHUVEarly Utah explorers and trappers recorded variable abundance of wildlife, but only rarely mentioned mule deer (Rawley 1985). Although horses were occasionally sacrificed for food, as with the Domínguez-Escalante expedition, most trappers and explorers lived primarily off the land. Fish were found in the streams and lakes, and waterfowl were abundant around the Great Salt Lake and other marshes. Bighorn sheep, bison, and pronghorn were mentioned frequently in journals, with elk and mule deer noted occasionally.
 
Thanks Middlefork. Sometimes history isn’t on the side of the loudest yellers.

But I guess we shouldn’t take what David is actually saying literal. He didn’t really mean any of it.
 
Thanks Middlefork. Sometimes history isn’t on the side of the loudest yellers.

But I guess we shouldn’t take what David is actually saying literal. He didn’t really mean any of it.

Alright captain literal. Whether or not that ideal ever happened. Show me a hunter that doesn't want it. Show me an early or late explorer that didn't yearn for a new horizon untouched by another.

Whether that ideal was ever achieved or not is irrelevant to the fact that many of us get out in the hills with that in mind. Finding places and seeing things rarely seen or experienced. Getting lost on that one tree kept you from seeing the forest.

But your manipulation is your primary focus. Instead of looking to understand you look for any minute error that can be twisted and manipulated to your agenda. Well done CNN.
 
This new love affair between you and roadrunner is awesome! You probably don’t even realize what you’ve got yourself into.

Runner, is mentally fragile and weak. Hitch your trailer to him to your own dismay! (That will give you something to cry about for the next 3 years…)

All you had to do from the beginning is say “Nobody take what I’m saying seriously here.” You’d have saved yourself a lot of typing.
 

±7KH3HULRGRI([SORUHUVDQG7UDSSHUVEarly Utah explorers and trappers recorded variable abundance of wildlife, but only rarely mentioned mule deer (Rawley 1985). Although horses were occasionally sacrificed for food, as with the Domínguez-Escalante expedition, most trappers and explorers lived primarily off the land. Fish were found in the streams and lakes, and waterfowl were abundant around the Great Salt Lake and other marshes. Bighorn sheep, bison, and pronghorn were mentioned frequently in journals, with elk and mule deer noted occasionally.
Unfortunately, not one mention of cheatgrass, which outcompetes and/or kills (cheats) native grasses, sagebrush, bitterbrush, other brushes, forbes and herbs that make up the vast majority of a mule deer's diet, and now covers most of the deer habitat in Utah!
 
Unfortunately, not one mention of cheatgrass, which outcompetes and/or kills (cheats) native grasses, sagebrush, bitterbrush, other brushes, forbes and herbs that make up the vast majority of a mule deer's diet, and now covers most of the deer habitat in Utah!
Exactly why MDF does so many habitat projects, but no one wants to give any credit ?‍♂️
SMH.....
 
Exactly why MDF does so many habitat projects, but no one wants to give any credit ?‍♂️
SMH.....
Good for them! And to their credit, they have tried to educate the public regarding that nasty weed, BUT until we find a way to eradicate cheatgrass, many of those projects will come to naught.
 
Remember When There Was Billions Spent On Railing/Chaining?

That Was Gonna Fix It!

They Found Out Later It Only Made Things Worse!

Only Took 30-40 Years To Figure That One Out!
 
They should have just asked Bessy 40 years ago and he could have guided this 40 inch wide bucks behind every tree with 400 bulls standing behind them like dwil dreams of!

If they only would have asked Bessy…
 
Remember When There Was Billions Spent On Railing/Chaining?

That Was Gonna Fix It!

They Found Out Later It Only Made Things Worse!

Only Took 30-40 Years To Figure That One Out!

And I was told the other day by someone that UT was way ahead of most other states in matters of game management and conservation :ROFLMAO:
 
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