Nevada Hunters in big trouble

[NVBighorn]

I hate to open this can of worms but right now I'm so pissed it isn't funny. Saturday at a Nevada Wildlife Commission meeting in Eureka the board elected Hunters Alert dandy Gerald Lent to the seat of Chairman of the Commission. There are four new appointees (including Lent) made recently by our illustrious governor to the board. Apparently they all have ties to Hunters Alert. Those four along with Commissioner Raine from Eureka voted for Mr Lent.

http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/27146084.html

Now, on the surface Hunters Alert and Mr Lent may seem to be on the hunter's side concerning Nevada's wildlife. In reality I believe they are a bunch of radical, narrow minded, NDOW haters who have never done a damn thing for wildlife in Nevada. Yet they constantly b!tch and moan about not enough deer tags, the bighorn sheep groups and NDOW all the while happily applying for the sheep tags put on the table by the very groups they criticize.

They hide behind this idea that the only thing wrong with Nevada's deer herds are NDOW and mountain lions. They don't offer a dime to help with habitat improvements, they don't acknowledge the huge fires in Nevada over the last couple of decades, they don't acknowledge man's encroachment on habitat and I bet they have never pounded in a post or shovelled dirt at a project. They only blame NDOW and lions. Oh, them and the bighorn sheep groups who they say are only out for themselves.

To top it off they have a letter on their website criticizing a man who dedicated himself and tons of hours to helping bighorns in Nevada. This man, Bill Vasconi, passed away last winter and they don't even have the decency to remove that letter from the site.

This may ruffle a few feathers out there if there are any Hunters Alert supporters on this site. Oh well. Don't be fooled guys. HA is not your friend.

 

[fullcurl74]

Have you seen Raine's letter to the editor in the current issue of Fur-Fish-Game? He talks about seeing "...the largest herd of desert bighorn sheep in the world nearly extirpated by lions."

What is he talking about? Has he looked at Nevada sheep numbers lately?

Hold on. We're in for a wild ride in the next few years.

 

[dwalton]

Jim Gibbons....what a complete disaster this guy has been. I agree that we are in trouble with the HA slant on the board.

 

[NVBighorn]

Yeah, Ive seen it. I'm not sure what he's referring to but it's probably the Sheep Range on the DNWR. No doubt lions had an impact on those sheep (they always do) but I also believe there are always several factors at work that cause declines in sheep populations. It just isn't as simple as they would have you believe. In a letter I saw where they reference the Sheep Range decline and blame the lions they also say the same thing happened at Stonewall Mountain (they refer to it as "Stone Wall Mountains"). I know there are some lions on that mountain. No doubt about it. But I was hunting there in the years prior to, during and after that decline. I saw a lot of ram heads picked up and none of the ones I saw were lion kills. There was something else wrong there. Wild horses, lack of feed, lack of water, too high of sheep densities on those few resources. All of those things. As I said it isn't that simple.

Glad you guys agree that HA isn't a good thing for us.

 

[SheepSeeker]

The funny thing to is how you can read the positive comments
from non-resident hunters how good NDOW is doing with our deer herds compared to their own states and then we have people that should know thinking 180 degrees the other way. We also need to have all the true sportsman in the state get more involved like attending their County Advisory Board meetings so we don't get burned by this new HA commission.

PS you sure have Grandma all fired up.

 

[Alex]

No feathers ruffled here by your post, just by what happened at the commission meeting.

But I need to correct part of your post. The vote was 4 to 5 yes, but one of the new commissioners McBeath was part of the 4 with Mori turning to the dark side and being part of the 5.

The five being:
1. Lent
2. Raine
3. Wallace
4. Cavin
5. Mori

I'm not going to bet against you about any of them pounding a post etc. I've never seen one of them on big or small game guzzler project, herding geese, counting sage hens, or collecting seeds.

Lent has been chair for 5 days now and the damage done on Valley Road is already tremendous. Just wait and see what HA does to the rest of the state.

 

[nvsportsman]

Mr Lents stance has always been about fiscal/financial responsibilty of NDOW amd predator control. Now that he has the Chair on the commission, I believe he will show his true colors in the near future. Lets see how well he does with managing a whole Dept on all the isssues and not just one or two.

 

[jackrussel]

No doubt about it HA is a radical group. However I do agree that the main problem with the deer herd in the areas I live in is defienatly the the Lions. They are thicker than hell, and for many years now the county game board has been nothing but lion lovers on it. Jim Gibbons is a discrace to Nevada and thank god he will not get re-elected. But the Lions are the problem here. Bill Vasconi was a good man who donated so much time and effort to the bighorn cause. Gods speed Bill.

 

[NVBighorn]

Alex, thanks for clearing that up. I was only going by what was in the KOLOTV.com article. More than a little disappointing to hear that Mori supported Lent.

 

[NVBighorn]

jrt,

What county do you live in? From your description of your board I could guess but would rather not be wrong.

 

[Alex]

jrt, your board's mindset must be flustrating.

Prior Commissions had the Predator Committee, where the county boards or even persons could submit predator projects to the committee. If Lent does not disband that committee you could submit your own project.

I know it is damn hard to kill a lion, but any person that has a hunting license can get a lion tag, fill it, then get another. The opportunity is there though.

NVBighorn- I think most were disappointed in Mori, I know I was.

 

[YourDaddy]

Alright guys, we can all agree that HA isn't what the sportsmen of Nevada need. Now is time for the hunters of Nevada to get involved with the real issues. Just like SheepSeeker said earlier, the dedicated hunters need to be attending the County Advisory Boards. I have been a few times now and it is amazing what goes on in some of those meetings, and I think most hunters are unaware that they can have an influence on what occurs in their County and State. If hunters aren't showing up to these meetings, then they have no room to complain.

 

[fullcurl74]

>I know it is damn hard
>to kill a lion,
>but any person that has
>a hunting license can get
>a lion tag, fill it,
>then get another. The
>opportunity is there though.


Amen! How many people that complain about mountain lions eating all of their deer actually ever go out and buy a tag? $29 over the counter. Buy two if you want. Season runs 24/7 365 days a year. How much easier could it be?

I've said it on MM before. Spend a week on a snowmobile in February and see how many actual lion tracks you truly find.

 

[Alex]

I think Coyotes are more of a problem, especially in fawning and burn areas. Not that mountain lions don't do their fair share of damage. But eliminating all predators are not going to "bring back our deer herds".

Start with improving our habitat. The added benefit of habitat improvement is to the sage grouse. If they get put on the list you can kiss hunting and mining goodbye in some areas.

 

[jackrussel]

The selling of the tags is just to raise more money for NDOW. The problem is that they do not set the quotas high enough in the areas. So when they hit the quota for that area, they close it. I agree lions are not the only problem, but they are a big problem here in Lincoln County.

 

[sandsavage]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-08 AT 02:05PM (MST)[p]I do not agree that lions are such a problem. Maybe in a certain range or canyon but not a whole unit.I have hunted lions with hounds for 9 years here and I had one season that I only cut 3 lion tracks ALL winter.

Although in January I was hunting the Rubies and in 1 day I found 4 coyote kills and 2 eagle kills. I think too many people see a pile of bones and assume that it was from a lion kill.

I have gone to countless "lion tracks" that people have called me on just to find out it was a coyote or a bird dog track. I even had a guy tell me about a lion track in the road where I had exercised my dogs a few days before.I was headed there anyway the next day so I checked it out....it was my hound tracks!!

If lions are so thick howcome the quota is never filled in most areas?? I think the last count I saw was only 50 somthing lions killed in the eastern region last winter with a quota of 189 or something like that.

So please be sure of what you are seeing before you condem lions for the loss of your deer heards.
(BTW this is not directed to anyone who posted before me.)

 

[NVBighorn]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-08 AT 08:42AM (MST)[p]>I think too many
>people see a pile of
>bones and assume that it
>was from a lion kill.
>


Very true.



>
>(BTW this is not directed to
>anyone who posted before me.)
>

Ditto. I know nothing about Lincoln county so I'm not discounting what jackrussel said.

 

[fullcurl74]

>The selling of the tags is
>just to raise more money
>for NDOW. The problem is
>that they do not set
>the quotas high enough in
>the areas. So when they
>hit the quota for that
>area, they close it. I
>agree lions are not the
>only problem, but they are
>a big problem here in
>Lincoln County.


Actually, I don't think any areas have closed in at least four or five years. The quotas must be plenty high enough. I haven't been in Lincoln County in a few years, but I do know that it's producing the best bucks in the state right now.

I suppose lions may be a problem in the units that don't get any snow for the lion hunters to run in, like 241, 243, 271, etc.

 

[Alex]

You are right, since they changed from units to regions the quota has not been filled. No area closed.

 

[3blade]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-25-08 AT 04:26PM (MST)[p]A few years back in the delamar mtns, 242 I believe they had a transplantation of sheep fail. The lions got em for sure. 3 yrs ago I was in 045, the Tobins and talked to a rancher. used to be a great deer area but he said the numbers of deer weren't there anymore like the late 90's because of lions. One of the ranchers north of him is also a guide and used to see 30 inch bucks every yr. he told me the last 3 they had not seen anything. He also said his horses used to go up behind his ranch on the mtn to graze until he almost lost one to a cat. The horse came back with scratch marks and they will no longer go up on the mtn to graze. He also told me the dept sent a lion guy up into the range that yr to do a survey. After 2 weeks the rancher talked to the guy and he said there are no lions here, and of course there are no deer either, the lions have followed them right on outta here. They planted the sheep.

I watched 032 deer numbers decline because of lion numbers yrs ago and the last yr I was in there I found lion kills, head separated from the body 3 vertabrae down at the neck, classic lion kill. Every morning we saw fresh lion tracks running the roads. A friend went in there yrs later and said all he saw was lion tracks everywhere he went.

I think in some areas there is a problem and some areas there is not. And by the depts own estimate we have 3200 or so lions throughout the state. Now a lion will kill a deer every 9 days so 365 days divided by 9 is 40 deer x 3200 = 128,000 deer a yr. For the sake of argument lets say theres 2000 lions in the state, thats 80,000 deer a yr. Hunters take around 10,000 a year.

Now most healthy does will have 2 fawns and 1 usually falls to predators or disease. Most likely predators allowing the strong one to survive. We have roughly a 40% survival rate of fawns or less when it should be closer to 80% IMO.

What about coyotes? Utah for instance has a bounty and the place is loaded with deer. Of course they do have more water than we do so that makes a difference. But is the range really in that much worse shape than in the late 80's when deer herds were at their peak? The weather runs in 11 yr cycles so shouldn't the deer herd do the same if weather is the cause?

I would like to see more controlled burns and clearing of pinion pine all over the state. Nothing eats the stuff and it supports very little wildlife while consuming huge amounts of water. Let the brush zones come back in these areas to support the herds and other wildlife. Matter of fact, every one of us should be taking a chain saw on our hunts and while your out there cut down and cut up a dozen of these trees.

Any way, these guys could be bad news and then maybe not. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt at this point for a few yrs and see what they do.

 

[mevertsen]

I heard these guys got appointed and about lost my lunch. It just made me sick. With as narrow minded as they are, I am surprised they can see far enough to tie their shoes.

I talked to a gentleman a few days ago. He told me he had a conversation with Scott Raine at the County Fair. Scott told him that lions DO kill one deer per week. If there are 3200 lions in the state, that means lions kill over 150,000 deer per year. Estimated deer population spring 2008: 108,000. Hunter harvest every year: 10,000. Fawns born in the spring with 50,000 does: 75,000. Fawn winter kill, not from lions: 25% or about 10,000. Add it all up: 108,000 + 75,000 = 182,000 - 150,000 - 10,000 - 10,000 = 12,000 DEER THE NEXT SPRING!!!!

IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!

I figured an average of 6 ADULT mountain lions per mountain range in NV, which would be about 1800 lions. Even running those numbers, it comes out to about 40,000 deer left. It simply does not happen.

I have hounds and chase lions. There are only about 3 months out of the year where I am not out on a regular basis looking for lion sign. There is no way there are more than 10 adult lions in any one mountain range, I just can't see it.

We are killing more lions every year now than in the 1960's when these guys were varmints.

If we make these things varmints again, it will just make the situation worse. The anti-hunter, and animal rights activist groups will be over the game commission like stink on dog poop. They will have an injunction in place in no time.

Don't believe it, look at Montana. That b-hole judge up their shut down wolf hunting with the drop of a hammer and put it back on the ES list. The three states involved already had regs in the works for hunting, and now it is shut down indefinately.

I do agree that there are several other issues with the deer population though.

30" racks don't have a lot to do with lion kill. Water, and good feed has a lot to do with 30" racks. We are in a drought right now, when was the last time we have made it over 1" for precip in one month?

Fires - HUGE. Yeah, the deer will eat cheat grass when its green and fresh, but now, there is no value to it. Put that in January when there is 1 foot of hard frozen snow on the ground and the temps don't get above 20 above for a week at a time, and the deer have to cover 10-20 miles to get to the next sagebrush patch, and you can bet your ass deer are gonna die. If the deer do make it there, they surely are going to get eaten by lions. Think about it, you don't go fishing to chase one fish in a lake, you find a spot that you know there are a lot of fish.

Urban development: Don't tell me that isn't an issue. Deer have a hard time crossing 6 lanes of traffic trying to make it across 395 to get from their summer range to traditional range, and a lot die in the process. Kind of hard for deer to dodge cars that are doing 80 MPH.

Here's a thought for the guys on the board. Get out of the office, do some projects, help rebuild the habitat, and then start bitching if it doesn't work.

Can't convince me lions and NDOW are the only problem. I know a lot of the NDOW people in Elko, and they seem to be a good job and are pretty level headed guys.

Well, I need to go. I am starting to turn red now, I am so pissed just writing this.

Later,

Marcial

 

[fullcurl74]

Right on Marcial,

Saw an article in Eastmans last month that said 90% of the winter range for area 6 had burned in the last 10 years.

 

[bearman]

We are in big trouble with the idiots on the state board now are Governor need taken out of office for what he did. These hunter alert guy have no idea and talk like they have never been in the mountains. They have more concern for ranching, cows, and sheep than wildlife and they are supposed to represent sportsmen. We need more people going to county wildlife board meetings.

 

[spidey]

You should read some of the things that you write before you start calling people idiots. I don't support them by any means, but I bet they can make a complete sentence. What grade did you drop out of school? See spot run. Sea ##### jumnp. Spelling errors, run ons, wow!

 

[bearman]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-08 AT 01:56PM (MST)[p]Yes I look back now and think I should have paid more attention in school, especially in English. But I have spent my life in the mountains hunting and would put myself up against anyone. Spidey I looked back and read my last post and it was bad, I didn't preview or spell check. Wow it was bad.

 

[fullcurl74]

I wasn't there, but heard that at the last commission meeting, there was a stack of Hunter's Alert newsletters next to the roll call sign in sheet.

How could anyone not realize how inappropriate that is?

 

[NVBighorn]

What's a "jumnp"?

 

[NVBighorn]

Inappropriate, yes. Wonder if he would have allowed a stack of NBU newsletters to be there too?

 

[bearman]

I did not see the news letters, but if there going to do that we need to get news letters from all the other wildlife groups.

 

[Alex]

Is there any part of Hunters Alert that is appropriate?

Not by me anyway.

Lent or Sonnetag usually brings the newsletters to the commission meetings.

The Eureka meeting was the first time Fredi crawled out from under his rock since he tried to take away the management of lions and make them predators. What was that seven or eight years ago?

He typically likes to hide behind his pen and paper.

 

[bearman]

There is nothing they stand for that I'm with. They are against elk, sheep and all other wildlife except deer. I would love to see our deer herd come back and think we should do more to help but that being said I don't think predators are killing all the deer.