New long range combo

elktaker

Active Member
Messages
275
I tried a new combo in my custom savage (Steven’s actually) muzzleloader.

28” .458 barrel
Brake
Arrowhead 209 plug
Sits in a XLR element chassis (I use this for my PRC and WSM actions as well)
Nightforce SHV

275 gr .402 bullets out a blush crush sabot

I thought for sure they weren’t going to group with how long they are with a sabot.

Started 95 gr by weight of bh209 and got a group at 100 yards so looked like they were stabilizing.

Then shot 105 gr by weight to get it sighted in. 3 shots 2512, 2515, 2513 FPS. Adjusted zero after first shot next two were touching and zeroed in at 102 yards. I planned to send some 115 gr but 2515 FPS is plenty so I decide to save the powder.

Published G1 BC is .494 at 2900 FPS so I decide to start at .46 and see how it goes. I shot 325 and 425 using my kestrel ballistic calculator for my dope and .46 BC was on. Photo of steel is 325 yards and the two larger impacts in the orange were the muzzleloader (friend shot a 223 AR15 as well which account for the array of impacts in the white). 425 had 2 shots dead on for elevation and one was 3” right and I pulled 1 pretty bad making group about 6”

At 725 yd, I was able to group just over an MOA but somewhere between 425 and 725 the BC is no longer valid. I am guessing something is happening when it crosses into subsonic but it did group on the other side of subsonic which was surprising

I tried the new Powerbelts elr for the paramount and they were not as consistent as these with the forgiving sabot. The ELRs have a lower BC and I was getting a lot less velocity for nearly the day weight.


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elktaker

Active Member
Messages
275
I love today’s modern primitive weapons :rolleyes:
I have a primitive and an inline cva wolf as well.

I would prefer states kept the regulations inline with primitive guns during muzzleloader seasons that make the hunts harder and less desirable to draw but many have gone the other away. I live in Utah where this gun is legal during the muzzleloader season and I am holding a limited buck tag for muzzleloader which likely will be the only limited muzzleloader tag that I ever draw in Utah as a resident.
 

Str8shtr

Member
Messages
39
How does that 40 cal compare to shooting a 300gr .452 old? Looks like a better bc with better velocity. I thought sabots didn't work that great at those kind of velocities. Now I kinda want to try them .40 cal bullets.
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
4,227
Yeah, I was in a pissy mood. I just spent two hours last weekend helping a trespassing poacher find his deer that he gut shot at 200 yards with his open sights.

Every time he opened his pie hole he had to tell me about his long range hunting skills. I finally told him I was going to hit him in the face with a shovel.

I crossed a line on this one. I won’t be praising long range shots. I want to hear how close you got.

So my apologies. It’s a nice rifle and I hope it stays on the range.

The deer wasn’t recovered. I watch those buzzards and think about how great long range shooting is. It damn sure ain’t hunting.
 

elktaker

Active Member
Messages
275
How does that 40 cal compare to shooting a 300gr .452 old? Looks like a better bc with better velocity. I thought sabots didn't work that great at those kind of velocities. Now I kinda want to try them .40 cal bullets.
The BC is much higher. They make this bullet in a 300 as well but the 275 is plenty for how far I will shoot at fur.

you need a gun that can stabilize the higher bc bullet. I believe my barrel is 1-18 twist. If I would use smokeless powder and speed it up just a little then it would start blowing sabots.

Here is the chart for the Powerbelt ELR 280 gr (original published BC was a dream at over .5) validated BC is .360. My gun with 105 gr by weight puts them out at 2400 FPS

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Here is the .402 with a .46 BC that I validated to 425 yards at 2513 FPS.

1632665657523.jpeg

The 300-600 range the .402 starts show much better retain velocity and energy. Plus at 500 yards -13.6 moa for the .402 and -17 moa for the powerbelt and 1 less MOA of wind drift for a full value 10 mph goes to the .402

I don’t like the plated construction of powerbelts (they are cheaply made) and a bullet with a lower BC that you can buy at a local store runs out of steam pretty quick even at my velocity.
 
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Idaholewis

Member
Messages
13
You don’t need a High-tech inline to Shoot Long Range ;), I shoot to 1,200 Yards with OPEN/PEEP Sights for Fun with an Old Sidelock Muzzleloader, in .45 and .50 Cal

.50 Cal

.45 Cal

My Rifle, Rice Barrel Co. 32” inch 1:24 Twist .50 Cal Barrel, In a TC Hawken Stock, Lee Shaver Long Range Soule Tang Sight, and Lee Shaver front sight (non adjustable) With Lee Shaver fine BPCR inserts

QfwUj30.jpg



Bullets, I chose my 610 Grain BACO Grease Groove for this Shoot (Mold i had Made) I cast these of Certified 1-20 Alloy, Lubed with my “Modified“ Bullshop NASA Lube

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Back when i Chronographed this Load

tDBW7mK.jpg



Ranged with my Leica 1600B Rangefinder, and Google Earth Shot in Yards, This is a TRUE 1,200 YARDS

OSXFxjs.jpg



A look from my Rifle, That is a VERY small Target with Open/Peep Sights for this Kind of Distance, My Entire Target (White Backing) is ONLY 3 Ft By 3Ft Square. My Steel Plate is 20 inch Square, 1/2” AR500 Plate, Weight is 60 Pounds

iUhKZmd.jpg



My 3 Consecutive Hits, Shots Number 3 & 4 are Very visible, 5th and Final Shot Just Cuts the Right side of the Plate

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5th and final Shot up Close, Cuts the edge of the plate, exits the Cardboard Backing

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What I could find of my Bullets, Even at 1,200 Yards They stil hit with SERIOUS authority!! They are Splattered to Pieces
M3v2qzb.jpg
 
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elktaker

Active Member
Messages
275
You don’t need a High-tech inline to Shoot Long Range ;), I shoot to 1,200 Yards with OPEN/PEEP Sights for Fun with an Old Sidelock Muzzleloader, in .45 and .50 Cal

.50 Cal

.45 Cal

My Rifle, Rice Barrel Co. 32” inch 1:24 Twist .50 Cal Barrel, In a TC Hawken Stock, Lee Shaver Long Range Soule Tang Sight, and Lee Shaver front sight (non adjustable) With Lee Shaver fine BPCR inserts

View attachment 53326
That’s a great accomplishment, but probably belongs as it’s own thread.
 

txhunter58

Long Time Member
Messages
7,393
Not really. People seem to think an expensive in-line with a long range scope is inherently more accurate than a sidelock. Not really true in the hands of the right person. But target shooting and hunting are two different things

Can you imagine the trajectory of that big bullet for that distance? You can shoot and almost be swabbing your barrel when you hear it hit the target 🤪
 
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Goshawker1

Member
Messages
99
Yeah, I was in a pissy mood. I just spent two hours last weekend helping a trespassing poacher find his deer that he gut shot at 200 yards with his open sights.

Every time he opened his pie hole he had to tell me about his long range hunting skills. I finally told him I was going to hit him in the face with a shovel.

I crossed a line on this one. I won’t be praising long range shots. I want to hear how close you got.

So my apologies. It’s a nice rifle and I hope it stays on the range.

The deer wasn’t recovered. I watch those buzzards and think about how great long range shooting is. It damn sure ain’t hunting.
To each their own, you sure got a nasty chip on your shoulder.
 

cannonball

Very Active Member
Messages
1,103
I kind of agree with Bluehair when he indicated long range primitive muzzleloading is out of bounds. This is my long range "target" gun for shooting targets. There are modern muzzleloaders and primitive muzzleloaders, but for Bluehair to call the "209'ers a modern primitive gun is ridiculous. Keep your modern muzzleloader with high-power scopes and shoot long ranges, but in Utah give us, primitive hunters a separate hunt. When a modern muzzleloader as accurate as a highpower rifle they shouldn't be included in a primitive hunt, they are not a modern primitive muzzleloader. Side hammers, shooting black powder(not 209), open sights and such, produced in the last 50 years is a modern primitive muzzleloader. The 209'ers with scopes, etc are just a modern muzzleloader - - period, and should not be included in the same breath as the real smoke-polers.

When you say why give them a separate hunt, I say why not include the fast shooting, accurate, 209 powder, and a high power scope that are accurate as a high power rifle with the regular rifle hunt. Makes more sense.
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
4,227
I live in CO so I use what the law allows.

My sarcastic point about modern primitive weapons flowed from my vague memories of the lobbying for separate seasons because of the inherent disadvantages of said weapons. It must have been just 40 years ago or so when some of those seasons were won.

I have enjoyed ml’s lobbing long shots since I first went to the CO and NM ”state shoots” (Leadville and Raton respectively) in 1975. Nothing quite like touching off a 25 pound bench gun barrel half full of black powder. :)

And although I’ve seen more than my share of whistlepigs knocked off a rock at 250+ with a round ball, I’m just sick of the idea of seeing how far away you can shoot game.

Some people just lack the emotional maturity to make good decisions.
 

elktaker

Active Member
Messages
275
I didn’t lobby Utah to a one shot rifle season instead of a muzzleloader season.

I would prefer that we had primitives only and much shorter rifle hunt (definitely not two rifle seasons on most general units) and I would prefer we got rid of rifle rut hunts for elk.

I have wounded one big game animal in last 8 years and that a bull elk last year during an archery hunt when I limb slapped an Aspen tree with my bow. I cut my tag after looking for 2 day and went home.

I have taken 15 animals in that time some farther than others all one shot kills (except a cow elk that I shot twice because she didn’t react even though both shots were double 🫁).

I personally get upset when someone says there muzzleloader is good at 400 yards on game when they are shooting a low BC bullet in the 200-250 gr range at <2000 FPS. Simple ballistics says the bullet won’t have enough velocity but they send it since they have a scope.

Knowing your limits/the weapons limits is your responsibility as an ethical hunter.
 

Bigwiffy

Active Member
Messages
482
Just shoot a 6.5 cut the BS. Shoot them with it on the muzzy hunt, what's the difference? Just wait 30 seconds or so between shots. Why keep that gun on the range? Shoot those forkys dead from 1000! Won't go 20!
 

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