Non Resident Stay Out of NM

J

JFWRC

Very Active Member
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1,132
The NM resident does not want you here! We don't like your business across the state because we don't get to go to our favorite hunting spot for 5 days out of the year. YOU STEAL OUR TAG!!!! I apply for my favorite spot every year and 1 to 10 of you gets to go instead of me. I don't want you here!!! Take your money and stay home even though I may like it when you spend money in my gas station, when you eat at my restuarant, when you buy beer at my store. No I don't like it. I don't care. Ya, that's right I don't want your money. I want my elk tag. I want my antelope tag.

I'll live fine without you even when my boss says go home, there's no work, when my buddy's wife gets laid off at the resturant as a waitress. Oh crap, I can't feed my kids because I want my elk tag....yep that's right, maybe I'll get an elk to feed them.

I don't want you here. Oh ya, did I tell you I have no clue how to apply for a tag. You probably study the odds don't you. I don't, I just put in for my favorite spot and your taking my tag. Stay HOME!!!!! You are not welcome in NM anymore. You spend way to much money here and that is BAD BAD BAD!

STAY HOME!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-10 AT 09:27PM (MST)[p]Man this place is great. I understand your mockery here, I just hope that the big game seasons would get here a little quicker so that we can start arguing about how "mine was bigger than yours"
 
JFWRC
Man I feel your pain I really do. Now than, let all us non residents in on your favorite hunting spot so that way we don't draw for that unit in the years to come.
 
I don't know who you're mocking but you make a very valid point (or two! LOL) about the intelligence level of some of the posters on this board.
That being said. Some of your other points are a little extreme don't you think?
 
Cookie-If you are a NR.....you will see that the underground movement is on to take more of your opportunity in NM. It will surface greatly in the next few months. My sarcasim stems from the lack of understanding what the NR "$" brings to NM. There are a few who are leading the many off a cliff in the name of "I can't draw." My point to the resident is that they can draw if they educate themselves on how to play the game. Problem is they want to hunt only their favorite and best places in NM and won't open their minds to the opportunities out there. They also won't take the time to really see how they should apply to make it possible for them to hunt. I am shooting an early warning to NR's that they are on the chopping block for NM hunting opportunity because of their lack of willingness to try something new, which will untimately take opportunity away from the NR at no fault of theirs. NR's bring alot of economic power to NM in dollars that feed this state big time.
 
Jimbo,

I think Cookie is a resident!

"Your Sacasim" stems from being able to make $!

Tell us about your deals in unit 9 on the big landswap!

SPIN SPIN SPIN,,,,,,,,

I hope Non-rez public hunters get more of the % of tags then the 10% they get!

It is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!

These idiots have been spoiled for too long!
 
ELkman is right and as much as I hate to disappoint you Jim, I just can't get on board with all this that you have put up tonight. It has been my personal opinion that a whole lot of what's wrong with the way licenses are handled in this state stems mainly from a lot of outfitters and private land owners who wanted to make the big bucks off hunting. They have been at commission meetings telling the copmmissioners this same old spill about "my livlihood is going away because of this or that" . Dude, I would be willing to bet LOTS of money that most if not all of the guys on here would absolutely LOVE to be able to make our living by being in the woods during hunting season doing what we love but let's get real here....It is a seasonal occupation and being such, for someone to come on here, (The New Mexico Forum of Monstermuleys) Where MOSTLY residents hang out and discuss New Mexico wildlife issues, and complain that the economy of our state is going to crash because the hunters have had enough of the big business attitude of the comission and are demanding a change, is absolutely silly. If you want to hunt elk in a unit that occasionally sees an actual elk cross across it then be my guest but I and a lot of others are wanting to hunt our favorite spots. What makes you think that coming on here throwing your attitude around is going to make anyone change your opinion on this? You are not helping your cause one little bit by coming on here and throwing playground namecalling around because your way is being challenged.
 
The states wildlife is not "owned" by anyone, its is free roaming and is left to its own means to survive, crossing state lines as it may. The department was created to manage the wildlife that is free roaming.

Cookie and Elkman-So your saying that 51, 52, 12, 53, 49, 48, 57, 2, 5B, the 6's etc.....are crappy units. Why is it that some hunters don't mind those units at all and like going there.

If you guys think a mesley 12% is going to get you your tag you are off the wall. In the current antelope scenario the opportunity would increase a whopping 2% if you through all 22% back to the residents. Do the math on your favorite units and post what the difference is. You are saying that you are willing to TOSS the NR hunter out for a mesley few tags.

Do either of you guys remember what the situation was before the quota??? I do, and it was way way bad because there were way more NR's applying than Residents period. They had 55-60% in Gila Units.

Elkman-Please calculate the numbers in 9 and tell me how many more tags its going to get by hammering the NR's.

To me the mesley increase is not worth what the toll it will take on the NM economy. You will see studies coming out on what the NM tourism hunter dollar contribiton is very soon. You must consider what its going to do to the dept budget. Only a self sustaining sales tax specific to the dept would solve their budget whoes.

Did you know that ranchers pay an average of .75/acre to lease grass on NM State Lease lands totaling over 9 million acres? Did you know that the Dept pays $.02/acre for the easement/lease on NM State Lease lands? This is BS! This money is for schools and the school budget is terrible right now. I hope the State Land Office starts charging us access fees on top of the pitiful lease dollars to start helping the schools like Montana does. Think about what would happen if the SLO commissioner put the all leases to open bid like they do for the grazing and minerals. That would shut out the hunters and the extra money would go to schools. Hummmmm. money for my kids schools, teachers salaries, etc or for the few days a guy gets to hunt on NM State Lease. We need the NR dollar badly so this doesn't happen.

Where do you guys think the money is going to come from to support the dept and the local economies? Do you like tax increases? Do you like that a Res Bull tag will go through the roof to say $250 or $300?

Elkman you are right....its about the $$$$$$$$$. Its about the $$$$$$ this state won't have to support its health without the help of the NR who pitches in a boat load more than us.Its been about the $$$$$$ since Adam and Eve.

I guess it will come down to the legislature and votes. In a time where unemployment is huge and every penny counts huge, this state needs all the dollars it can get.

Bite the bullet and try 5 or 2. Try 51 or 52. I'd be happy to tell you guys of some spots to go there. Ever heard of Osha Pass or Spruce Hill in northern units. Ever hear of Midnight Meadows against the VV. Come on guys.......please see the bigger picture here. Its not worth what the loss of $$$$$$$$ will hurt NM already bad ecomony.
 
I never said that any unit in particular was a crappy unit. I KNOW 34. Spend countless hours all over it hiking and hunting. It's MY preferred unit. I don't care to go all over the state looking for new spots. Is that so wrong?
If you don't want to admit it that your easy money is about to go away then thats your decision to make but you and those in the same business have had it a little good for too long in this working man's opinion and at the expense of the common hunters. Sorry the gravy train is leaving for you but I'm sure you can find some other easy way to have your cake and eat it too.
 
Cookie-Its not easy money and my contribution via a willing NR to the state and its wildlife is way the hell more than yours in terms of what I pay to resident guides, local economies, and the taxation and rev dept that helps you and your family out. But you can't see that can you because you have your preferred unit and its all about what you want.

Your preferred unit.....amazing.
 
JRFC, Middle men tag brokers and Outfitters benefit most from the abundance of cheap Ranch tags that they buy for cheap and resell for huge profits! I honestly feel for the NM rancher because most Ranchers get paid much less than the retail value of their permits. Most Ranchers are not getting rich on permits.

IMO, Outfitters are screwing over both the ranchers and resident hunters!
 
Ever since Gov. Johnson signed the "Guide and Outfitter Welfare Act" giving them 12% of the tags, they have been another group who reacts viciously when someone talks about taking their entitlement program away. There were very few outfitters in this state prior to the act and now you cannot kick over a rock without finding one. 12% may not change the odds drastically in some units but it is better than we have now. My suggestion is take the 12% guided tags in each unit and convert them to youth tags so we can make an investment in the future of hunting and our kids.

Landowner tags for elk are easy to fix. Make the permits unlimited ranch only. No unit wide option. If you raise elk on private land and people want to pay to hunt their, more power to you. If you claim elk and can't produce, no more signing the clause and selling the elk grown on public ground. Works for deer, should work just as well for elk. Still lots of opportunity for guides and outfitters to ply their trade.

Antelope landowner tags are tougher. The majority of antelope are on private land or public land that the access is controlled by private land owners. The current system was developed to get public access to at least a portion of those animals. If the landowners are not making money, they probably won't let hunters in. You could draw a tag but have no place to use it. Not sure how that can be fixed.

NR do pay a lions share of running G&F but changes can be made to still get that income with fewer NR by charging them more. Some will quit coming, all will whine but there are enough out there who will pay to keep the money flowing.

Look at AZ, they have a 10% cap on NR. No set aside, no outfitter guarantee. They just make NR buy a license in order to apply. More money for the state, less NR, more resident tags, seems to work fine. Outfitters in AZ seem to be making a living.

JRQE, your the "sky is falling" approach that the state will be ruined if we cut out guaranteed tag for outfitters doesn't fly. Other states don't have them and outfitters haven't become extinct yet. As far as the waitress and the business owners being destroyed, residents use those places too. The waitress doesn't care if her tip comes from a resident or non-resident.

No sale, find a different song to sing.
 
Largo
So if the elk move on to the ranch after the season is over the rancher should just bite the bullet then or what.
Hate to see those ranchers just start shooting the elk to protect their hay stacks or crops.
Unit wide tags are for those same elk that come on his ranch sometimes during the year.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I couldn't even draw a crappy unit, that sucks.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Really........do you know that most outfitters pay anywhere from a minimum of $1K to $2K+ for a goat tag? Where are you getting your info because that is not the case with us. We take a risk when we buy in bulk because you never know what a hunt is going to sell for and in this economy it is very tough right now. Many outfitters and ranchers are not selling. There will be a market correction just like in Real Estate in 2011.

I am a resident hunter as well. I structure my app to go hunt and have a good time because I am not stuck on one unit. I will go for the gusto first choice and temper the 2nd and 3rd based on odds because I want to hunt and enjoy what NM has to offer. I don't mind learning new area because that expands my horizons.

IMO, you are trying to screw an industry that contributes GREATLY to the NM economy and NR hunters are the backbone of that contribution.

Trespass fees are no different than the piece of paper called LO permit. I promise.

Cookie-looked up 34 rifle tags available via draw and the numbers applying for both res and NR as an example. Not a 1/2 of one percent change in your chances when you throw all 22% back in. You still will have to wait your turn with 4,000 res applicants and 115 tags. The math does not work in your favor one bit.
 
I think the best argument for NR is the fees that they pay for tags compared to residents. That is money G&F relies on.

Are residents willing to pay more for tags??? I am, but, not sure others are.

There is work to be done on the SCR elk tags issued. I find very few that do not agree with that.



**********************************

Margaret Thatcher: "The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money."


"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything he doesn't own." - Unknown
 
Largo-New Song-----Arizona Residents Love NM. I get plenty of clients from your state becuase they can't draw. They want whatever they can hunt because they still can't draw. Funny, alot of Arizona Outfitters have licenses in NM. Go figure.
 
Largo-I assumed you were an Az resident. If your not, sorry.
You have some good points up to the last regarding the impact on local enconomies. Your dead wrong there. The economic impact figures are being compiled at NMSU as we write.
 
Thank you NM!!! This year i will have the opportunity to Hunting oryx=1637.00 Ibex=1637 elk=787 deer=297 for a grand total of 4,358... Some living in NM won't even pay that in taxes ..Not to metion what will get spent at T'Ds and twin peaks on each one of these trips...:):) That will feed a few mouths right there...1MANSHOW


Thank you New Mexico....You've been GOOD to me
 
im not against NR's but i think they get WAY too many tags. if it's so much about money then cut their tags in half and double the price for a NR tag. no doubt that residents should have more rights to hunt in their own state. the landowner system is a whole other problem. it's become nothing more than welfair for people who don't need it, for the most part. that being said, my family gets some tags. it's rediculous though that some landowners get tags for different units then where they own land.
 
One thing to add - NMG&F budget comes from license sales. No money comes from the state budget at all. Habitat stamps pay for habitat work, GAIN stamps pay for GAIN properties, Dep stamps pay for depredation and fences.

JFWRC is correct on most things - the big topic is for residents is opportunity to hunt. You could never take the LO tags away completely without eliminating the public access to these ranches.

G&F has an extremly difficult balancing act in trying to satisfy all parties. Between LO (which by far hold a lot of clout in Sante Fe), NM sportsman (group I fall into), NM buisness owners.

So before jumping on with the Sierra Club in Camo (NMWF). Use some common sense and look at the total picture of economics, politics, and what makes NM a desired destination of sportsman across the country.

Facts of life. There are more hunters and less game to pursue. Popularity of the sport continues to grow - population increases. We also do not want to curb this. Because if it was a dying sport then in quick order it will be DEAD. PETA and other treehuggers are going to fight to eliminate this sport that we love dearly. Game populations are stable to decreasing - few areas are actually increasing.

All living animals - including humans require - food, water, shelter. In order to increase game densities there needs to be an increase in the quality of habitat. Increase game populations is part of the solution to create more opportunity.

Do I think the A+ system needs some steadfast rules - Yes. Does the E+ system need some attnetion - Yes.

Maybe something along the lines that if a LO owns less than 40 acres - he can have unlimited tags good during season ranch only. Then some factors used to calculate the number of tags with land over 40 acres.

The whole LO vs public tags has been a hot topic since the Jennings law was passed. I think that everyone needs assist to get a govenor in office that will assist in removing this law - which in turn will take a large leveraging tool away from the LO.
 
I love it. Sounds like a outfitter or rancher started this post. Folks things are moving forward. Expect more caustic posts and other things to get worse. The LO mafia is being challenged. NR's will still hunt here, but we are trying to get the percentage more to the national level. 22% is and has been WAY to much,then add to that all the LO tags and its even worse. I as a resident buy drinks, food, gas etc also. 12% of all tags would be 12% of 60,000 tags approx I believe. That is thousands of tags more for the youth and tax payer of this great state. Thank you and have a great day. Sincerely bullbreath.
 
Sounds to me like you guys need to instate a tax that goes to your game and fish. Raise your resident fees, and then you can lower NR tags.

You guys want everything without giving anything.

LO tags don't and never did take away from the number of tags issued to the public. Take them away and you will have a bunch of landowner that don't let the phone stop ringing at the G&F. In my experience, if you don't try to help the farmer or rancher, then they will take matters into their own hands. Trust me you don't want that. Issue a bunch more tags and then add all the animals that are getting shot because they are ruining crops, or eating all the grass that cattle would use, and you will wreck your resource.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-10 AT 02:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-10 AT 01:38?PM (MST)

JFWRC-

As a resident, I can admit that NRs offer significant economic value to this state in many ways. However, your argument doesn't acknowledge that some of the revenue, excluding license fees, would be replaced by whoever has the additional tags (i.e. the resident would also likely make some purchases of gas, meals, lodging etc. that would contribute economically if they were to possess an additional percentage of tags). It also doesn't acknowledge that it is a two way street. While NR licenses and your service brings economic value to NM, YOU also benefit or make a living from these same licenses, so at least be honest about your agenda as being rooted in selfish motivation as opposed to acting like the residents of NM are out to steal NR tags.

And by the way...I always play the draw just as you describe where my third choice is a dog of a hunt with the best odds out there and until this year, I had struck out 5 years straight. (this is for elk)

I think there may a bit better balance of NR and Resident tag percentage allocations out there. And as far as the Ranch Only thing goes...I'm not sure that is a good solution. Unfortunately I know of two specific ranches in prime units that are supposedly "Ranch Only", where hunters hunt outside the boundaries of the ranch on public land that can only be reasonably accessed through the ranch and it scares me to think just how much more prevalent this may be when the only two ranches I have intimate knowledge about are doing it. That is WRONG!!
 
RE: Non Resident Stay Out of

Guess the money I spend as a res. in your town is worth less than non res.I eat at your restrant,I get gas at your station,I rent rooms at your hotel,I buy food at your store!!!!What makes you think non res pay more?Oh wait they do,they buy landowner tags at prices 75% of res can't afford plus they might get the tags cheap in the draw.Bet 75% of land owner tags also go to nonres on top of the 22%.Hum guess we still give 40 to 50% to non res.You are right lets not increase our odds as residents!!!!!
 
My 2 cents on this.

I am and outfitter in NM and also have a day job as well as hunt.

The reason land owners are issued LO permits for antelope is because somewhere around 80-90% of all antelope in NM live on private land. Where is most of the water in the state located? PRIVATE LAND. These ranches were issued these tags so the rancher could get reimbursed for the cost of their grass to feed the animals, water, and fences that are torn up from these animals. Are the tags to expensive? YES. Are they labeled NR or Resident when the rancher gets them? NO So any resident can purchase a tag and hunt antelope. I have never drawn an antelope tag but it doesn't stop me from trying next year. Ranches make money from animals eating their grass and drinking their water. Wouldn?t you like to get reimbursed for your losses?

As far as elk tags. I don't agree with giving tags to people with small pieces of land. The reason is the elk are more than likely not residents of this land. Only give to the larger ranches.

Do I raise a big stink when I don't draw a tag? No because NM is the only lottery draw that allows anyone to draw a tag. Just as Jim has said you have to create your own opportunity in the draw if you want to hunt. For 10 years I tried for one of the good tags with no luck. Then I started putting the rifle 22 units down as a 3rd choice and drew it for 3 years and killed a 350? class bull. Then didn't draw a thing so switched over to muzzle loader hunts with a cow tag for my 3rd choice and hunted cows for 5 years in unit 15. After not even drawings a cow tag I switched over to archery and have drawn tags most of the time for 5 years. How many bulls have I taken in the last 20 plus years? Not as many as I would like but the time spent with my brother, dad, brother-in-law and good friends is priceless. Create your own opportunity by taking other chances out there.

Here is my score for the year as a Resident.

Within #50 on the Oryx Dep. Hunt
Archery Elk 19-24 1st choice
BB Sheep Rifle 1st choice
Lil pigs rifle 1st choice
Archery Deer 3rd choice

This year wife drew antelope 3rd year in the pot. Oryx OIL first time in the pot last year.

Son drew youth deer 34 first year.

If you don't play you can't win. Create you own opportunity.

My 2 cents.

LCHC
 
I think an average cost for a RO antelope hunt is around 1000.00. Although I have heard 2k in some instances. They are around what 90lbs on the hoof. How much does a 1000lb bovine get per pound. I bet there ancestors never dreamed they would make more money off wild game then ranching cattle. I never dreamed they would either. My apologies to all the children and residents who have been messed over by greed.

I think it would be hilarious to have biologist do a study on the impact antelope really has and what negative affects are changed by giving a rancher say 20 antelope tags to sell for 1000 plus. Again, as a fellow resident of the state of NM, I apologize for the greed that has affected wildlife. My granddad used to ask people sometimes to go shoot deer so his (real farming purpose) could thrive. He was not greedy. He even let a section of field rest every 5 years and had the best tobacco crops because of it. The greedy ones never let the field rest. They only hurt themselves. Sometimes integrity is a great thing. Its too late for some. Its OK, you like the current entitlement leadership in our country are in for a challenge by Joe citizen. God bless
 
I had to LOL about if the rancher wants to get rid of the animals on his land he will need to open his gates, That is some funny #####, What rancher will do is open and close that bolt action as many times as he has to, to be rid of said animals, He not going to let a bunch of no shooting,gateclosing,Roadrutting trucks,wildfire starting,hunters on to his private ranch. He will just kill a bunch of animals and be done with it, BYE BYE NM hunting.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
JFWRC, not from AZ, lived in NM my whole life.I have my profile disabled because I like my privacy. I hunt all over the state because I use just the strategy you and others promote. I figure any hunt is better than no hunt at all. I would love to see the NMSU numbers. I do understand that their are some economic impacts but do not think they are nearly as bad as you think they will be.

As far as AZ residents not being able to draw a tag and coming to NM, I believe you are correc but that has nothing to do with my suggestion. I said adopt the system of making non-residents pay for a license to apply in order to get their money. That would replace the money lost by reducing the number of license they actually get. I understand that because I also hunt in AZ, UT & CO. They do things to me to get my money, I choose to play so I pay.

One area where we differ is that I think that residents should have every advantage possible over NR. I even agree with this when I am applying out of state. I think that if we are going to have a 22% set aside for NR, it should include LO tags. If there are more than 22% NR total during any hunt code, then the next year there should be no NR tags available in the draw. Let the LO sell their tags to who they want but keep as many tags available for residents as possible. If you look at some states,their are hunts with no NR tags offered. They are taking care of the residents as they should.

Gator-roll your own elk hunts let the LO set their season dates so that they can hunt when the elk are on their property. Going to ranch only would not cause a problem as long as that continues.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-10 AT 08:44PM (MST)[p]My accounts payable is currently about $52,000 for guides this fall. We have 9 guides that we work with. Right now it looks like there are 32% private hunts and 68% public land hunts. This works out to $5,777/guide. Suppose a spilt of $1,848 of those dollars on private and $3,929 on public per guide.

Assume the 12% public goes away. I just counted the number of guides registered in NM at 784. Only a hypothetical, but assume they make $3,900 in a fall season on public land. Take that at 784 and were are talking about $3,057,600 in todays situation. Add 10% for tips and your at $3,363,360. Wack that to a 1/4 still working in a proposed 10% NR quota and you just took $2,522,520/year out of the economy just from the guides that lost their part time job on public hunts.

This is real money to your neighbor, your friend, your brother, all gone over a mesley 2% change in odds in unit 34.

That's just the guide pool, not to mention the loss in the dept revenue on the current 5000 NRG licenses at say an average of $500/license and there is another $2,500,000 in lost dollars for NM. Yes, of course, add back the 5000 at the average Res rate of $50/license and you gain back another $250,000 for a net loss of $2,250,000/year to the department.

This is just a guess guys making some assumptions based on what my situation is. But that would total about $4,772,520/year. May not seem like much for 1 year, take that x 10 years and your at -$47,720,520 over a 3% change in your odds.

Whats so stupid about this is your not going draw with a 3% change in odds. That number will get worse over time with hunting demand growing and growing.

I do not need this business to survive. Like LCHC, I have a real job with bennies and all. I love to help folks come to NM to see this beautiful state, its culture, and its great wildlife.I love to hunt with my resident buds that I've hunted with since I was 10. But there are some folks out there that every penny counts to them and their kids that work for the NR. Think about that when you keep up your demand to nock the NR out economic equation.

The agreement made in mid 90's was based on all hunting factions coming together and compromise. Now that there is less opportunity again I guess that makes it right to demand more in some folks mind. I still say try to apply in different areas, the so called crappy areas produce some pretty nice animals. I still say learn to apply by studing the odds. Most folks hitting this site know how to apply. Educate your buddy and you gave him a big gift.
 
Gator, as far as people trouncing over ranches, tearing down gates and fences and diggin ruts as an excuse. Well, just aint so bro. Were not talkin about fully open to all public ranch hunting. We are talking about controlled access for a select few. My suggestion is a choice on applications for Ranch hunts. The owner that now gets 7 bull tags for greed will get 7 public hunters. They will pay a trespass fee not to exceed 500.00 and if need be a 100.00 refundable for damages. Greed is running out of excuses.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-10 AT 09:16PM (MST)[p]NR should pay more,have amount cut to 10-12% including outfitters. Pay lic. fee upfront.To offset this residents need to pay more for tags,face it folks ,we have the cheapest tags anywhere.And the best chance to draw anywhere. That said,LO tags should not come out of res. pool,be for units outside said ranch and they should be ranch only.Conversly LO's should not be locking access to leased PUBLIC land! If there is damage to leased land,call it in. Ranchers do have a problem with vandalism and such,but if it's just hunters w/LO tags on your ranch,you need to be aware that you have a problem,and deal with it. They sign a release when you sell the tag and set the ranch rules. Folks w/LO tags get just 5 days like the draw.Nothing is sure thing hunting. But overall,NM has best system and chance of drawing for a resident there is!!
 
If you don't like the system and have a vote try to change it. If you can't change it then find a way to make it work for you. I hope to draw a tag but when that doesn't happen I go to plan B. If I want to hunt bad enough it is worth it to me to buy a landowner tag. Might have to scrimp and save all year to afford it but it comes down to a choice. I often see residents (in all states) complain about not drawing a tag but also unwilling to buy a landowner permit. Anyone can buy landowner tags so make your choice. The rancher does feed wildlife year round, I believe they are entitled to some compensation. There will always be more applicants than tags for all the good units. Best of luck this season!
 
Bull
I'm calling BS on that. Ruttearing,slip sliding fence tearing down drivers,no gate closing,irrigation pipe shooting,No asking permission SOB'S.
I have seen it happen, hell last year I saw in NM in front us during the rain storm guys heading the hell out of the area because the roads get so slick.Hell we even had problems with the slick roads last year during the hunt we watched a woodcutter slip into a ranch fence and tearout about 60 ft came back up on the road and kept driving. I know for a fact it happens in SD on my brothers places in the past,My dad use to let everyone who asked to hunt on the place. But now because of the bad stuff that has happen over the years is why you can't hunt them (ranches and farms) anymore with out them knowing you by name. Nope it not a excuse it a frigging fact.
Not saying it down get use But I know it happens so to say they are all making it up is BS and you have no clue what happens on a ranch after you let people on it. Now some ranchers are in it for the dollars and alot of them just wants some help back because of the problems elk and deer cause to the crops, fences and what the hunters do also. Out of the all the ranchers you might have 20-25% that will play the sytem so now the other 75-80% that are good ranchers are painted in the same light that fine, So now let them do the same to the hunters and what the hell everyone is crying that they don't do those things the ranchers are claiming are getting done. Once painted you stay painted.

Set your own season goes right back to the 20-25% of bad apples who are making up their own seasons to make sure the tags aren't being used again and again by those same ranchers who are game Hogs right now.Once that barrel is open you will never put a lid back on. Don't worry about the 75-80% of the ranchers who are following the law becuase they will find out they aren't making any money letting hunters on to their ranches and just close up the gates.

Soon after this happen or even before let the poaching begin. because now you have even less Game wardens because you don't have the money to hire them.

I wish one of the hunters who know what type of money is Brought in to a State economy post up that fact, I'm sure it close to top of the list in the most hunted States. Cut the Nonresident hunters numbers will hurt that bottom line.
Now you can raise up the price of the tag to off-set the cost of licenses and tags BUT it still don't help those stores,motels cafes,gas stations,ECT that need the dollars that are spent by the Nonresident.

Now lets make this run like a business evryone pays the same amount, charge that 700 dollar per Elk tag to each person to hunt elk. Man would that fill up the old cash box, look what the F&G could do with all that money. Hell they could buy out those greedy ranchers and have a lot of fun running a elk hunting pardise. I wish Resident and Nonresident all could pay the same amount to play, the hollering and b$tching can be heard for Miles.

Well Boys that My Buck fifty. Let me all welcome you the new age of hunting in New Mexico. LOL


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-10 AT 06:46AM (MST) by NMPaul (moderator)[p]JFWRC, has made $$$$$$$$$$$$$ on the system for years!

He does not give a rat's A about public hunters!

Do not buy into his BS!

The system needs to be changed!
 
ELKMAN,
You were doing so good there for a little while! lol

I gotta say that those numbers sure are impressive but I know of few people who will actually DEPEND on a measley 3000 they get from guiding dude. If it aint there they will work something else to get that money back so is it REALLY lost money to the economy?? I am by no means an economic wiz but your argument still don't hold much water with me...it is making for an interesting read tho....
 
Paul-Don't moderate a portion, delete the post and don't delete the whole thread.

I know who you are Elkman. Can't believe after the exchange you are still so pissed. I thought we were doing OK. I've been honest with what I do, who I am, and my facts on issues from the beginning. I have advertised on this site for years, helping support your right to free speech. YES, NR Dollars even go to Utah to help Brian and his spending habits.

Come on Jolly Green, get over the past and lets talk about the truth.

You never answered my question as to what the difference in numbers of potential tags will be in 9, your old stomping ground that is so near and dear to you. Since you won't,I will do it for you, its a mesley 3.2% on all the muzzy. The residents are getting 86.5% of the cow tags on hunt code E-1-131 and 90.5% on E-1-132.

SEE the link is below and run your finger down the right hand colume of the list to see what hunt codes are where the residents are getting more than the 22%. There are units where residents are getting 100% in deer hunts. The cow hunts are always underscribed by the NR. PLEASE LOOK AT THIS AND NOTE THAT THERE ARE HUNT CODES WHERE THERE ARE NO GUIDED APPLICANTS BUT THERE ARE NR NO GUIDE APPLICANTS THAT WILL GET HURT BY WHAT NMWF WANTS! I KNOW I HAVE READ THAT NO ONE HAS A BEEF WITH THE NR NO GUIDE BUT WHAT IS BEING THROWN AROUND WILL HURT THEM ALSO!!

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/recreation/hunting/documents/draw_odds/Drawodds_Report_2009.pdf

LETS get the facts out......!!!!!!

LETS LOOK at what the real impact is to YOUR PREFERRED UNIT. Throwing the industry out is not going to get the residents their coveted tag!!!! LEARNING TO APPLY AND BEING WILLING TO LOOK AT ALTERNATIVE AREAS WHEN APPLING IS THE ANSWER!!!!
 
Never implied that hunters where sole problem on ranches. My gates are locked and fence checked regularly on my place.For a reason. Getting back on topic,NR bring in alot to state coffers and to offset loss,residents would have to pay more for tags. And we do have best system and draw odds as it is in west,IMHO
 
>Paul-Don't moderate a portion, delete the
>post and don't delete the
>whole thread.
>

Jim, so far I am just deleting or editing the name calling. Seems people resort to that quite often.

Couple points.

Hunting means different things to different people. Not everyone that wants to hunt is obsessed with it as some of us (I am beyond obsessed and will go hunting every year no matter what it takes).
You need to make it easy for them and they want to hunt areas they are familiar with. So no matter how much you coach them about going into other areas some are just not interested in doing it.

That being said, no matter what is done to NR tags, LO tags, not everyone is going to hunt a prime unit every year on a draw basis.

Lastly, there is room for a few more tags to go to residents from the LO pool and the NR pool, but, be prepared to pay more for your tags as a resident.

If your not willing to pay more then be careful what you wish for. Also, every time the price goes up it eliminates some new hunters and the casual hunters that we cannot afford to lose.

Okay, back to the cat fight!
 
Gator, there are always a few idiots getting drunk and have not respect for property. When you pay a tresspass fee and a damage deposit, you have alot more responsible people. Most low lifes would never pay a 500.00 tresspass fee. Also, there are limitation that a LO can require such as no vehicles off designated ranch roads and hunting on feet when in muddy areas. We did fine on the caldera last year with rules like these. I quess I know how to monitor roads with an atv,binos and written agreements. Again, you sound like a LO who gets these tags or someone in your family. Maybe not you, but many of these guys have been workin like lawyers to paint a story that just "so sad and unfortunate" for the poor ranchers and OFs. One guy has a 5 page paper he has been using this story for years at the G&F meetings. They finally saw through it.
 
Bullbreath-could you post your preferred unit(s) so I can look at the impact on your resident odds when ALL the NR's tags are given to residents in the public pool.

By the way-I have never seen a trespass fee on private that low on any deer country in NM. The cheapest we have ever seen on decent country in the Hondo Valley is $1,250. However, I have seen UW LO ELK tags at $500 in northern units that would allow access to their deeded as well as all the public with legal access. Its all about supply/demand/how good the place is as I'm sure you know.
 
my family has ranched our whole lives and cattle tear up more fences then people ever have. that's just part of doing business and shouldn't be an excuse.

i don't buy the economic impact of loosing NR's either. yes, the only ones who'd really loose would be the outfitters. in my opinion, that's a necessary loss because they are the primary reason that we are in this crappy situation. hotels, resturants, etc probably wouldn't see any impact because residents would still be spending money in their town's.

i don't believe we need to accept raising prices for the residents either as part of the solution. with the way our government and agencies wastes money, i have a hard time giving them more.

the amount of NR tags and LO system are two separate problems that will require two separate fixes. no doubt that both systems are broke though. the old ways of catering to the landowners and outfitters needs to stop. with the direction things are headed now we will loose the working class sportsmen and that's where your tax base and support are. obviously there's people here who don't care and speak simply from greed. it shouldn't be a sport for the rich!
 
Ropinfool-Could you let us know the name of the family ranch please? Sorry....I'm having trouble buying that your from a ranching family.

I probably could of verifeid the above had your profile not been disabled.
 
You are owners of unit 7 and 9? So would that be Floyd Lee, Elkins, or are you out by San Luis and Cabezon? No name to your handle no name to the ranch. Are you sure your really a rancher. OK-just give us the ranch number on your E-Plus for 7 or 9. No sale so far.
 
stick it where the sun don't shine buddy,i own just as much of that state as you do.
 
>stick it where the sun don't
>shine buddy,i own just as
>much of that state as
>you do.

No body wants to eliminate your chance to hunt here. It is just at 22%, it is alot higher than most. If you do think as a NR that your have the same benefits as state tax paying citizens then let 50% of your states tags be used for NR. What state are you from? It may be beneficial :)
 
As a side not to this whole discussion, the NM Wildlife Federation who is championing this reduction in NR tags is the outfit that sold the residents down the river and made the deal that gave us this mess.

I find it humorous that they have forgotten to mention this.
 
No worries man. If you see me walking around your state in the woods with a gun, it won't be because I am hunting. I am just helping some of my cousins arrive and helping to keep them safe from some of the racist minute men while they make the long trek across the desert to their new homes. Since Arizona came up with that new law, it is a lot more common to cross a little more to the east!



?Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by the sense of touch, because everyone can see, but only a few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are, and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion.? Niccolo Machiavelli
 
I'm a landowner in UT all 6 acres,SD DON"T MEAN SOUTH DENNING LOL. Don't own any in SD (South Dakota)either that ALL belongs to my Brothers and Sisters who stayed there, I'm just a Small part of a family of 12 brothers and sisters, I work for a living being a construction worker and business owner.
I'm a Non-Resident who like to hunt in my National Forest no matter what state it's in.

I have to say in SD we(my family) like seeing the pheasant hunters come and hunt, And I'm sure there is some people that don't like them. I love the money they bring and how they spend it really does help everyone. BIG benefits to Stores,Cafes,Car rentals,BARS,gas stations,Ect
I'm sure the court system even gets some money from some of them.

But as my dad use to say don't fight with a idiot because they will drag ya down to their level and beat you with experience.
Well that where this is heading.
Now I'm over my 2 dollar limit.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
>I'm a landowner in UT all
>6 acres,SD DON"T MEAN SOUTH
>DENNING LOL. Don't own any
>in SD (South Dakota)either that
>ALL belongs to my Brothers
>and Sisters who stayed there,
>I'm just a Small part
>of a family of 12
>brothers and sisters, I work
>for a living being a
>construction worker and business owner.
>
> I'm a Non-Resident who like
>to hunt in my National
>Forest no matter what state
>it's in.
>
>I have to say in SD
>we(my family) like seeing the
>pheasant hunters come and hunt,
>And I'm sure there is
>some people that don't like
>them. I love the money
>they bring and how they
>spend it really does help
>everyone. BIG benefits to Stores,Cafes,Car
>rentals,BARS,gas stations,Ect
>I'm sure the court system even
>gets some money from some
>of them.
>
>But as my dad use to
>say don't fight with a
>idiot because they will drag
>ya down to their level
>and beat you with experience.
>
>Well that where this is heading.
>
>Now I'm over my 2 dollar
>limit.
>
>
>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".

Much different here. Elk/antelope hunting out here are done along way from most bars with few exceptions. Most do not stay at motels and lodges like fowl hunters do. You dont just quit at 6:00 and go to the bar/lodge. Most of us are in a tent or rv far away from towns unlike most pheasant hunting. You get to camp and usually eat and go to bed. Alot more gas spent by residents scouting more often out of albuquerque which holds most of the population. Just about every motel in the state has a "welcome pheasant hunters" on it. There is your different revenue. God bless
 
Federal Land belongs to us all....50/50 will happen some day soon! Everyone better get use to it, because it is right around the corner.
 
In New Mexico, do the animals belong to the state, land owner, or federal govt?

Personally, I hate to see NM going through something similar to what we had in AZ 5-6 years ago. Arizona does not have anything close to NM as far as private land owners with elk on their property. We were able to save resident hunting because in AZ, the animals belong to the state and not the federal govt. Due to this AZ G&F was able to set the numbers at up to 10% for non residents. So, people who say they own the land (national forests)and they should be able use it like a resident are only partially correct. The land they can camp, hike, or do whatever with but the ownership, regulation and control of wildlife on that land belong to the state.

Money and greed is going to be the downfall of hunting as we know it.
 
JFWRC don't need to look up the odds,we just need to ask the 10 hunters per hundred that draw because of the reduction of nr tags if it made a diffrence!!!Ranchers and outfitters have had their cake and ate it to for too long and now I'm hungry too.If you claim that some of these off units are easy to draw and good hunting maybe you should apply your hunters their!!!Or is the hunting not that good and you want the Q units for you to hunt and kick the NM res to those crapy units!!!Theres a reason those units are so easy to draw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I realize I am just a stupid NR and opinion doesn't matter but I find it hilarious that both sides of this say the other side is acting out of greed yet their actions are pure and unselfish. HA!!!

All positions on this topic are selfish PERIOD!!!

They are just different types of selfish greed. Some are monetary and others are based on jealousy that they don't draw tags often enough and some guy from out of state has their elk tag! NR's position is they don't want odds to get worse. All of these are selfish and all can be supported with facts and figures but from my view only one side has and that is JFWRC. All others have only whined and b*&^#ed and avoided facts or simply dismissed them without supporting facts. Not saying there aren't facts to support the whining just that they were not used.

I don't apply in NM not because of the hunting or the odds or any other really good reason, I just don't have alot of info on it to go off of and have not researched it to find more so I have avoided it.

Resident hunters should have much better odds than NR hunters and I am pretty sure they do in NM. The comparison of the percentage to other western states is not a great argument unless you accept the system of other states you are comparing to in their entirety (point system and all). Is the system flawed? I am sure it is. Which one isn't.

You can't please everyone and the only "fair" system is to allow every hunter who wants to hunt to do so but we all know how that went and that was prior to today's human population. So leave fair out of it you can't cherry pick the systems of other states IMO.

F&G depts. walk a tightrope in trying to raise money , manage game and manage and keep people content all while making enough money to achieve these things. And don't doubt every F&G dept. gets its fair share of whining from ALL GROUPS concerned.

Oh and yes I know I am from CA and how F'ed up my state and all its resi's are so no need to use that against me unless that's all you got! I choose to leave my profile open not because I am proud of it or don't wish for privacy myself but because I feel anyone who has something to say in a forum such as this should have enough sack to have full disclosure and not hide from who they are or where they come from. I mean honestly how much will your privacy be infringed by your name and city and state being posted on a website of hunters and peers.

Bill
 
i don't care whether you believe me or not....lol. if i wanted my info public i would make it so.

my family has cows in units 9 and 7. actually one uncle has some in 12 and he gets an elk tag there as well. we all have jobs as well since we can't make a living on a few cows.

doesn't change my position. believe it or not, ive actually guided for a couple different outfitters back in the 90's.

residents should have more of an advantage in drawing tags. people who don't own cows or use their land for ag purposes don't deserve to get tags. tags should not be transferable by unit. just because an elk passes through somebodies land once a year and takes a dump doesn't mean they deserve a tag. just examples of things that i think need to be fixed. two different problem, but both need to be fixed.
 
Jacob2006-We do put them in for those so called crappy units and they do go hunting, which is what they want to do.
 
First let me say that I do feel your pain but that does not mean that I am not going to apply again. I personally do not like to see tags sold @ big buck$ but I do not mind a guide getting paid for his time. The reason that I applied for NM this year is because I see hunting opportunities getting to be more and more limited. What I say is not going to change anyone's mind. You do have a problem and yes lots of the land is public. Money will always drive the train. I think the rub is that you lump NRs that draw with the same ones paying the big buck$ for LOs tags. There are plenty NRs that cannot afford the LO and or guide fees. Many states have catered to the well to do and guides and LO associations have the wherewithal to lobby to benifit themselves. I have seen it in Alaska where I had to waite a year to be a resident and where now after living there for nine years I cannot go back to hunt Brown Bear, Dall Sheep, and Mt Goat unless I hire a guide which rules me out at the tune of ten to twelve thousand dollars with airfare to and fro not included. I guess I should have been more industrious and became a hunting pro and suck up numerous cherry tags every year and it would be a business exspense. Enough ranting, I just hope this division is not going to seperate normal everyday sportsmen. Because the other guys are going to hunt regardless of what is determined in your pursuite of a fair and equitable tag solution. I Feel for you and yes I am a little selfish and always want a chance to wander in the Gila with an elk tag in my hand. Good luck I will live with the outcome.
 
What a truly adult and well thought out post, Bill!! It is probably the only one that addresses the truth.

Scott
 
>My 2 cents on this.
>
>I am and outfitter in NM
>and also have a day
>job as well as hunt.
>
>
>The reason land owners are issued
>LO permits for antelope is
>because somewhere around 80-90% of
>all antelope in NM live
>on private land. Where
>is most of the water
>in the state located? PRIVATE
>LAND. These ranches were
>issued these tags so the
>rancher could get reimbursed for
>the cost of their grass
>to feed the animals, water,
>and fences that are torn
>up from these animals.
>Are the tags to expensive?
> YES. Are they
>labeled NR or Resident when
>the rancher gets them?
>NO So any resident
>can purchase a tag and
>hunt antelope. I have
>never drawn an antelope tag
>but it doesn't stop me
>from trying next year.
>Ranches make money from animals
>eating their grass and drinking
>their water. Wouldn?t you
>like to get reimbursed for
>your losses?
>
>As far as elk tags.
>I don't agree with giving
>tags to people with small
>pieces of land. The
>reason is the elk are
>more than likely not residents
>of this land. Only
>give to the larger ranches.
>
>
>Do I raise a big stink
>when I don't draw a
>tag? No because NM
>is the only lottery draw
>that allows anyone to draw
>a tag. Just as
>Jim has said you have
>to create your own opportunity
>in the draw if you
>want to hunt. For
>10 years I tried for
>one of the good tags
>with no luck. Then
>I started putting the rifle
>22 units down as a
>3rd choice and drew it
>for 3 years and killed
>a 350? class bull.
>Then didn't draw a thing
>so switched over to muzzle
>loader hunts with a cow
>tag for my 3rd choice
>and hunted cows for 5
>years in unit 15.
>After not even drawings a
>cow tag I switched over
>to archery and have drawn
>tags most of the time
>for 5 years. How
>many bulls have I taken
>in the last 20 plus
>years? Not as many
>as I would like but
>the time spent with my
>brother, dad, brother-in-law and good
>friends is priceless.
>Create your own opportunity by
>taking other chances out there.
>
>
>Here is my score for the
>year as a Resident.
>
>Within #50 on the Oryx Dep.
>Hunt
>Archery Elk 19-24 1st choice
>BB Sheep Rifle 1st choice
>Lil pigs rifle 1st choice
>Archery Deer 3rd choice
>
>This year wife drew antelope 3rd
>year in the pot.
>Oryx OIL first time in
>the pot last year.
>
>Son drew youth deer 34 first
>year.
>
>If you don't play you can't
>win. Create you own
>opportunity.
>
>My 2 cents.
>
>LCHC


First, The SWF will come to your rescue soon. Second, how much did the rancher who looses all this grass to antelope and water to elk pay for the grass? That water that runs out of the mtn, did he pay the public for it or just claim it when it hits his land? how much did he pay for that antelope he sells? Unless he proves it was bred and born on his ground isn't he a rustler? Just questions I have. Again, contact SWF, Don peay in Utah, he will cure all!!!
 
I tried to stay out of this but here goes....

I really do not care either way on the LO issues other than to point out the fact that Kansas did away with their trensferrable LO tags a few years back and it did nothing but help! I can now get drawn every year, and personally have no more (probably less) difficulty securing hunting permission than before.

As far as the 10%/12% split, once again I really don't have a problem with it other than the "prearrangement" on the 12%. You should be able to put in the 12% draw with no outfitter prior and the tag issued after the fact through the chosen outfitter. The thought of say 16C/34/12 is appealing, but how do you find an outfitter that covers all of those? Should be able to split up choices between outfitters/DIY on a choice basis.
 
Personally, I haven't experienced another state that treat NRs better than NM treats NRs.

Therefore, I'm for treating the NRs the way they treat us when we're the NRs. Consequently, the NM law should state that any NR in NM will be subject to the same stupid rules as the NRs in their respective states. From WY and want to hunt NM? Fine, just don't step onto any of our wilderness areas unless you hire an outfitter. From AK? Fine, just don't expect to be able to hunt NM oryx, ibex, or elk unless you hire an outfitter. From AZ? Fine, just expect to hand that tag you drew back over unless it was drawn in the first ten percent.

Don't like being subjected to such stupid rules? Fine, fix it in your state before you come here and tell us how we should fix ours... ;-)
 
Right there!! you nailed it! When hunting became business, it became tainted. Don't ever whine to me about business as it relates to hunting. It's like mixing church and business or love and business.
 
There needs to be major reform. I have always said that G&F needs to: (1) reform the LO tag system, (2) reform the depredation hunts so that they are for females (i.e., non-trophy animals), and (3) do away with the Jennings law.

This is about the reckoning of what is right and fair. To quote a bowsiter....

"This is where everyone is driving off the cliff. It is true that many small NM communities and land owners rely heavily on NR hunters. Thus they rely heavily on LO tags. It is unfortunate that this was allowed to happen. Just as the drug addict relies on illegal narcotics or the criminal relies on breaking the law to support themselves. In both cases they can be reformed and its the right thing to do. In the same sense the LO tags work the same way. It has become the easy way and no one wants to give it up for the right way. There may be a few that flounder from the change but chances are they were just hanging on by thier fingernails anyway. We can not make a decision to sink the entire ship to save a few rats on board. All I can say is because of the LO tags many units in NM have as many NRs hunting public land as there are residents. Even if we just do away with UW LO Tags and no more tags are added to the lottery then we have made one step toward the resident sportsman in the state. Its not a battle against LOs as they would have you think. We just simply want a fair shake."

PS - I pay for my fair share of taxes in NM, and yes, I am a resident (and have chosen to be so).



JBone
 
....me like puthy !!!!



JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
>Largo
>So if the elk move on
>to the ranch after the
>season is over the rancher
>should just bite the bullet
>then or what.
>Hate to see those ranchers just
>start shooting the elk to
>protect their hay stacks or
>crops.
>Unit wide tags are for those
>same elk that come on
>his ranch sometimes during the
>year.
>
>
>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".


another reason to repeal "The Jennings Law"! dont ya think?
 

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