northern Rac

[Downrange]

Anybody attend last nights meeting? and how did it go

 

[elkantlers]

 

[elkassassin]

Did You Mean This One elkantlers?

 

[elkassassin]

The Brain-Washing Is Working!

And IO Quote:

15-17 Bucks Per 100 Does Is Too Many Bucks!

They're Eating The Feed That Other Deer Could Be eating!

 

[elkassassin]

Believe Me The West Unit On The South Slope For Goats Is In Big trouble!

It Happened Before The Winter Of 22-23!

 

[elkantlers]

Did You Mean This One elkantlers?

Lol. Yep, I went back to the good ole days before we had too many bucks.

 

[mtnrunner260]

I'm not sure what the solution is if there even is one but I wish there was some urgency to figure out what caused the massive decline in willard goats.
350+ to 18 and the response is drought and maybe there are more hiding in the cliffs?

 

[marburg]

I'm not sure what the solution is if there even is one but I wish there was some urgency to figure out what caused the massive decline in willard goats.
350+ to 18 and the response is drought and maybe there are more hiding in the cliffs?

Werent those the goats that were constantly in contact with people and their pets? Getting fed etc?

I bet they contracted some disease. Those things would walk right up to you.

 

[lostinOregon]

The Brain-Washing Is Working!

And IO Quote:

15-17 Bucks Per 100 Does Is Too Many Bucks!

They're Eating The Feed That Other Deer Could Be eating!

They are losing their mind. Copying Oregon’s successful management plan. Brilliant

 

[Mtngoat690]

I'm not sure what the solution is if there even is one but I wish there was some urgency to figure out what caused the massive decline in willard goats.
350+ to 18 and the response is drought and maybe there are more hiding in the cliffs?

I believe they know exactly what happened to the Willard Peak goat herd. They made some huge management mistakes and then the perfect storm of events hit all at once. It all but destroyed the herd.

I've been leaning on the rocky mountain goat alliance to get involved. I talked with them last year and they had no idea the herd had taken such a hit in such a short amount of time. I believe they said the last count they did , it was estimated well over 300. I told them what i was seeing compared to the last survey and they were shocked. I believe they were going to contact the DWR to speak with the biologist to possibly get a volunteer group together to do a count. I haven't heard back from them to see if they got anything scheduled for 2024.

If I hear anything on a count this year I'll post it.

 

[elkassassin]

The Goats On The South Slope Have Been Headed Down Hill For Several Years Now!

Anybody Know How Many Tags Were Issued On The West Unit The Last 10 Consecutive Years?

 

[mtnrunner260]

I believe they know exactly what happened to the Willard Peak goat herd. They made some huge management mistakes and then the perfect storm of events hit all at once. It all but destroyed the herd.

I've been leaning on the rocky mountain goat alliance to get involved. I talked with them last year and they had no idea the herd had taken such a hit in such a short amount of time. I believe they said the last count they did , it was estimated well over 300. I told them what i was seeing compared to the last survey and they were shocked. I believe they were going to contact the DWR to speak with the biologist to possibly get a volunteer group together to do a count. I haven't heard back from them to see if they got anything scheduled for 2024.

If I hear anything on a count this year I'll post it.

The first couple RMGA counts were in the 350 range. Would be great if the did another. I probably have data from the original counts if helpful.

 

[Vanilla]

Anybody Know How Many Tags Were Issued On The West Unit The Last 10 Consecutive Years?

Yep. Lots of people do. And you could too!

 

[elkassassin]

Pony Up On The Wasatch Thread Nilly!

 

[bucksmut]

I know this is super critical and I’ll own that but…do you think we could have a more casual wildlife board meeting?

These people hold a tremendous amount of influence and at a whim they are creating policy for the general public that they are being asked to represent and serve.

T-shirts, hats, backslapping, facial hair jokes, “I don’t know’s”, “I can’t remember’s”, “I have no clue”, “Hey, do I know you from 30 years ago?”

If this was a private company these folks would be asked to level up.

Granted this is a new board and I know it takes some time to get into a grove of things. I’m hoping to see some members of the board take the mantle of their positions more seriously and hold them selves to a higher standard that yields some credibility.

Also it would be nice to see more of the board members speak up and weigh in on topics that are obviously charged. Those on the zoom call maybe had a 10 word count for the whole session and that came from their votes.

Ross dominated the discussion on the Southern Utah deer permit increases and was aggressive while only a couple of board members commented. There were several instances of this throughout the meeting (cow/calf moose regulation) where the rest of the board didn’t have a meaningful comment to contribute to his outspokenness so they went along with the affirmative vote.

In my opinion, the public deserves a higher quality product from this group in terms of professionalism and content-hoping they find their stride.

 

[elkassassin]

Did Any Of you Hear This Comment?

THANK GOD FOR COMMITTEES!

Ya!

The Committee May Only Have 2 Hunters/Sportsmen On The Committee Even Related To hunting/Wildlife!

Just Another Way To Blame Somebody-Else When Things Don't Work!

I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE AI TO SHOW UP IN WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT!

Maybe Nilly Can CHIME In & Tell Me How Wrong I Am,Again!

 

[Mtngoat690]

Did Any Of you Hear This Comment?

THANK GOD FOR COMMITTEES!

Ya!

The Committee May Only Have 2 Hunters/Sportsmen On The Committee Even Related To hunting/Wildlife!

Just Another Way To Blame Somebody-Else When Things Don't Work!

I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE AI TO SHOW UP IN WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT!

Maybe Nilly Can CHIME In & Tell Me How Wrong I Am,Again!

I'll take this one Vanilla..... elkassassin your wrong yet again!

 

[hossblur]

I'm always curious.

Do guys think there is a magic bullet somewhere?

Being able to explain possibilities of what happened, and flipping a switch to reverse it seems unfair.

Also

Yes, there is a person in charge of goats.

Should the division dedicate a full time guy to watch the herd year round?

I know, you ain't gonna like it.

How much "conservation" money has $fw raised to create the Serengeti of the west?

Moose- down

Sheep- Kuiu buys

Elk- in good shape

Deer- below where they were when $fw started

Goats- struggling

Bison- tags down big

Pheasants- pen raised by $fw, maybe there only win


Tell me again what it is we are " conserving"? Explain how THE DWR not having the money has bloomed wildlife.

Not the "it could be worse", defense.

 

[elkassassin]

Not Wrong At All!

We've Got A F'N Committee For Almost Everything Now!

Funny How We Once Had A Thriving Deer Herd In This State Long Before Any Committee's Were Even Heard Of Isn't It?

I'll take this one Vanilla..... elkassassin your wrong yet again!

 

[elkassassin]

You're Not Wrong Hossy!

Did You Forget About The $$$ & GREED Thing I've Mentioned For Decades?

I'm always curious.

Do guys think there is a magic bullet somewhere?

Being able to explain possibilities of what happened, and flipping a switch to reverse it seems unfair.

Also

Yes, there is a person in charge of goats.

Should the division dedicate a full time guy to watch the herd year round?

I know, you ain't gonna like it.

How much "conservation" money has $fw raised to create the Serengeti of the west?

Moose- down

Sheep- Kuiu buys

Elk- in good shape

Deer- below where they were when $fw started

Goats- struggling

Bison- tags down big

Pheasants- pen raised by $fw, maybe there only win


Tell me again what it is we are " conserving"? Explain how THE DWR not having the money has bloomed wildlife.

Not the "it could be worse", defense.

 

[Mtngoat690]

I'm always curious.

Do guys think there is a magic bullet somewhere?

Being able to explain possibilities of what happened, and flipping a switch to reverse it seems unfair.

Also

Yes, there is a person in charge of goats.

Should the division dedicate a full time guy to watch the herd year round?

I know, you ain't gonna like it.

How much "conservation" money has $fw raised to create the Serengeti of the west?

Moose- down

Sheep- Kuiu buys

Elk- in good shape

Deer- below where they were when $fw started

Goats- struggling

Bison- tags down big

Pheasants- pen raised by $fw, maybe there only win


Tell me again what it is we are " conserving"? Explain how THE DWR not having the money has bloomed wildlife.

Not the "it could be worse", defense.

I'm not sure if this is a generic question or if you are specifically talking about the goats, but I believe the Willard peak herd disaster could have been avoided if they would have pumped the brakes a bit when we were headed towards a cliff.

For the most part, nobody could have predicted what the winters of 2016-2018 would do to the herd numbers, that was out of anyone's control. Goats are pretty tough, but i think it was just too much snow too fast. What they knew and could have avoided was the large amount of nanny tags they issued on the unit. Dang it! Now I'm sounding like Ellkassassin.

They also used that peticular herd to start new herds around the state. There were excess goats on the landscape and lots of empty goat country we could fill up. I supported this move 100%.

The overlooked problem I witnessed, was there were a family group of lions that became extremely efficient at killing goats. I assume goats became the primary food source for the cats. They killed a lot of goats so I'm sure this didn't help much. For 2 or more years I came across an unusual amount of cached carcasses.

I don't believe there is a magic bullet as there are so many factors to consider that are beyond anyone's control. I honestly don't know that you can blame the management of the herd, but im goingto because its easy. It happened so fast, there wasn't time to take any corrective action.

I openly admit I was a bit upset at the DWR, for the nanny goat tags. I thought the amount was excessive. With that said, it opened my eyes and changed my outlook on management to see in just a year or two how a historic goat herd could be decimated and it had nothing to do with tag numbers.

As far as having a guy dedicated to watching the goats, not gonna happen. But.... what we can do, as hunters, is start contacting our biolists and share what we are seeing in our adventures. Everyone of them I have interacted with have been very helpful and willing to listen.

Keep in mind I'm as passionate about the goat herd as old elkassassin is about his book cliffs mule deer so don't you guys even dare tell me I'm a ding dong that doesn't know what I'm talking about or ill take this thread to 300 posts in ALL CAPS MADE UP WORDS!

 

[Mtngoat690]

Not Wrong At All!

We've Got A F'N Committee For Almost Everything Now!

Funny How We Once Had A Thriving Deer Herd In This State Long Before Any Committee's Were Even Heard Of Isn't It?

Still wrong!

We absolutely need more committees. You think it's bad now, can you imagine what it would be like if we didn't have committees?

 

[elkassassin]

Like I Said:

I Can't Wait For The AI To Take Over!

Committee This Committee That!

Carry On With Your BS!

Still wrong!

We absolutely need more committees. You think it's bad now, can you imagine what it would be like if we didn't have committees?

 

[hossblur]

Not Wrong At All!

We've Got A F'N Committee For Almost Everything Now!

Funny How We Once Had A Thriving Deer Herd In This State Long Before Any Committee's Were Even Heard Of Isn't It?

That was before $fw?

 

[hossblur]

I'm not sure if this is a generic question or if you are specifically talking about the goats, but I believe the Willard peak herd disaster could have been avoided if they would have pumped the brakes a bit when we were headed towards a cliff.

For the most part, nobody could have predicted what the winters of 2016-2018 would do to the herd numbers, that was out of anyone's control. Goats are pretty tough, but i think it was just too much snow too fast. What they knew and could have avoided was the large amount of nanny tags they issued on the unit. Dang it! Now I'm sounding like Ellkassassin.

They also used that peticular herd to start new herds around the state. There were excess goats on the landscape and lots of empty goat country we could fill up. I supported this move 100%.

The overlooked problem I witnessed, was there were a family group of lions that became extremely efficient at killing goats. I assume goats became the primary food source for the cats. They killed a lot of goats so I'm sure this didn't help much. For 2 or more years I came across an unusual amount of cached carcasses.

I don't believe there is a magic bullet as there are so many factors to consider that are beyond anyone's control. I honestly don't know that you can blame the management of the herd, but im goingto because its easy. It happened so fast, there wasn't time to take any corrective action.

I openly admit I was a bit upset at the DWR, for the nanny goat tags. I thought the amount was excessive. With that said, it opened my eyes and changed my outlook on management to see in just a year or two how a historic goat herd could be decimated and it had nothing to do with tag numbers.

As far as having a guy dedicated to watching the goats, not gonna happen. But.... what we can do, as hunters, is start contacting our biolists and share what we are seeing in our adventures. Everyone of them I have interacted with have been very helpful and willing to listen.

Keep in mind I'm as passionate about the goat herd as old elkassassin is about his book cliffs mule deer so don't you guys even dare tell me I'm a ding dong that doesn't know what I'm talking about or ill take this thread to 300 posts in ALL CAPS MADE UP WORDS!

More a generic thing.

Guys are great when something goes bad.

Plateau Antelope being the example.

Should the DWR be more cautious with their "nursery herds?". Maybe? Your not the first I've heard say it about Willard.

But at what ends?

Plateau Antelope created a lot of good antelope hunting in other areas. Yeah, they got caught with climate, but hund sight is always 20/20.

Can't speak to those goats, I've only ever seen them with scopes.

I'm more a how many biologists do WE want to employ? Like it or not, they are spread relatively thin.

There's lots of money available to increase them, give them smaller areas of responsibility, but that might piss off some party planners

 

[Mtngoat690]

So I'm a bit late to the party here, just finishing up the video. I have a question for elkassassin from an "OPER FN TUNIST" .

Elk on the sanjaun if I'm understanding correctly are above management goals and age data comes in at 7.6 years. When asked by some folks why no tag increases the answer is "because a few guys mentioned and or commented saying they prefer to see old larger Bulls not younger smaller bulls". Is this the management tactic you are in support of?

So we all know very few Bulls have the genetic makeup to hit the new trophy standards of the loud minority. So we are literally going to let the majority of Bulls die of old age on a unit so "a few guys can look at larger Bulls vs smaller bulls"? So then we follow up the question with So this is about trophy management and not biological standpoint management. The answer....yes. honest question is this the management we should be taking?

I'm sure I'm just an idiot, but if we ever have a unit where more bull die because they no nonger have teeth to eat with than from hunters I think we got something wrong?

 

[Mtngoat690]

Like I Said:

I Can't Wait For The AI To Take Over!

Committee This Committee That!

Carry On With Your BS!

Why is everything I say "BS", but everything you say is gospel? You're pointed comments are hurtful.

I remember on one thread (I believe it was your own thread you derailed ) I was accused of being AI? If it can happen on monster mulies, you know it can take over the DWR. Just a matter of time I suppose.

I seriously can't believe I admitted you could be right. But hey, if you are you are I guess. Hope Vanilla doesn't see this one or he might not want to be my friend anymore.

 

[hossblur]

So I'm a bit late to the party here, just finishing up the video. I have a question for elkassassin from an "OPER FN TUNIST" .

Elk on the sanjaun if I'm understanding correctly are above management goals and age data comes in at 7.6 years. When asked by some folks why no tag increases the answer is "because a few guys mentioned and or commented saying they prefer to see old larger Bulls not younger smaller bulls". Is this the management tactic you are in support of?

So we all know very few Bulls have the genetic makeup to hit the new trophy standards of the loud minority. So we are literally going to let the majority of Bulls die of old age on a unit so "a few guys can look at larger Bulls vs smaller bulls"? So then we follow up the question with So this is about trophy management and not biological standpoint management. The answer....yes. honest question is this the management we should be taking?

I'm sure I'm just an idiot, but if we ever have a unit where more bull die because they no nonger have teeth to eat with than from hunters I think we got something wrong?

Funny you ask Bess about the SJ, maybe he can expand.


But yes, you're correct.

That's the rub.

We take the most productive units, both elk, but especially deer. We push numbers of tags really low. That forces folks to hunt open units, artificially blowing up the numbers of hunters. Then the same dudes will ***** about the pumpkin army.

 

[Mtngoat690]

Funny you ask Bess about the SJ, maybe he can expand.


But yes, you're correct.

That's the rub.

We take the most productive units, both elk, but especially deer. We push numbers of tags really low. That forces folks to hunt open units, artificially blowing up the numbers of hunters. Then the same dudes will ***** about the pumpkin army.

Pretty sure the pumpkin army complaining is a thing of the past now. With the new hunter orange rule we won't see each other as good so they'll be nothing to complain about this season I'm thinking.

Visually, we'll pretty much have the whole place to ourselves in 2024! That's right folks no more overcrowding on the general season hunts in Utah. Issue has now been resolved!

 

[elkassassin]

So That's Your way Of Fixing A Deer Herd?

Like I Said A Few Weeks Ago!

Thew PUMPKINS Won't Be As Big But They'll Be More Plentiful If The DWR's Increased Tags Pass Which I Believe They Will!

Pretty sure the pumpkin army complaining is a thing of the past now. With the new hunter orange rule we won't see each other as good so they'll be nothing to complain about this season I'm thinking.

Visually, we'll pretty much have the whole place to ourselves in 2024! That's right folks no more overcrowding on the general season hunts in Utah. Issue has now been resolved!

 

[Mtngoat690]

So That's Your way Of Fixing A Deer Herd?

Like I Said A Few Weeks Ago!

Thew PUMPKINS Won't Be As Big But They'll Be More Plentiful If The DWR's Increased Tags Pass Which I Believe They Will!

Heck no, that would be a terrible plan to fix a deer herd. I thought we already established our herds were too far gone to save and we were just going to shoot them all till they're gone?

That's my plan to fix the overcrowding issue. Stay focused elkassassin.

 

[middlefork]

I know this is super critical and I’ll own that but…do you think we could have a more casual wildlife board meeting?

These people hold a tremendous amount of influence and at a whim they are creating policy for the general public that they are being asked to represent and serve.

T-shirts, hats, backslapping, facial hair jokes, “I don’t know’s”, “I can’t remember’s”, “I have no clue”, “Hey, do I know you from 30 years ago?”

If this was a private company these folks would be asked to level up.

Granted this is a new board and I know it takes some time to get into a grove of things. I’m hoping to see some members of the board take the mantle of their positions more seriously and hold them selves to a higher standard that yields some credibility.

Also it would be nice to see more of the board members speak up and weigh in on topics that are obviously charged. Those on the zoom call maybe had a 10 word count for the whole session and that came from their votes.

Ross dominated the discussion on the Southern Utah deer permit increases and was aggressive while only a couple of board members commented. There were several instances of this throughout the meeting (cow/calf moose regulation) where the rest of the board didn’t have a meaningful comment to contribute to his outspokenness so they went along with the affirmative vote.

In my opinion, the public deserves a higher quality product from this group in terms of professionalism and content-hoping they find their stride.

You think this one was bad? Just keep watching.
You won't see suits and ties until the WB meeting. Like that makes a difference.
They are people. Just like any other people and they have at least become involved in the politics to put themselves out there.
Nothing wrong with trying to keep it a bit casual while discussing some pretty inflammatory subjects.
Feel free to step up.

 

[elkassassin]

I've Told Nilly To Step Up several Times & Get It All Fixed!

I Don't See It Happening!

You think this one was bad? Just keep watching.
You won't see suits and ties until the WB meeting. Like that makes a difference.
They are people. Just like any other people and they have at least become involved in the politics to put themselves out there.
Nothing wrong with trying to keep it a bit casual while discussing some pretty inflammatory subjects.
Feel free to step up.

 

[middlefork]

He has about as much chance as you Bess. It's all in the fix.

It's pretty amazing that as a group we may know a few people involved in the process but we don't know them all. Or even maybe the majority.

I certainly don't know any personally but I have my impressions via statements on line and videos. Maybe others do? I'll be the first to admit some of the people on the RAC's seem like they watched the workshop presentations about like most on here.

They all have bias which comes from the nature of the selections. But in the large part they seem to have the greater good in mind.

I've yet to see any of the conspiracies others refer to in regards to our wildlife. But that's just me.

 

[elkassassin]

He has about as much chance as you Bess. It's all in the fix.

Well That Oughta PISS The KING Off!

It's pretty amazing that as a group we may know a few people involved in the process but we don't know them all. Or even maybe the majority.

I certainly don't know any personally but I have my impressions via statements on line and videos. Maybe others do? I'll be the first to admit some of the people on the RAC's seem like they watched the workshop presentations about like most on here.

They all have bias which comes from the nature of the selections. But in the large part they seem to have the greater good in mind.

I've yet to see any of the conspiracies others refer to in regards to our wildlife. But that's just me.