It is that time of the year again preparing for the upcoming nr elk application period in wy. I always think I have this process down until I start to over think it. I have read all the intel on the fish and game web site and still not sure on the first draw(pp) and the random draw. I understand the first draw is for only preference points with the second draw for the/ if any remaining tags. My question is when I apply for a unit that I can't reach with my points in the first draw, does my first choice also get considered for the random draw. Do I need to also use the same unit for my second choice to be in the random. Hope this makes sense to someone that has this down. Thanks for any insight in advance on this.
NR points and the draw
- Thread starter hornguy
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DoubleDropMuley
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Not a nonres but as I understand your first choice will be in the random draw if you don't have the points to draw in the points round and no you don't put it as your second choice to be in random.
Broomer
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Percentage for each hunt/unit is a 75/25 split. 75% of all tags in a unit starts with the max points in that hunt code. They draw out until all 75% is gone. Then you have the 25% left over which is distributed as random. There isn't really a 2nd draw in the original draw period it's more of a 2nd round rather.
Remember that the non-resident elk draw is separate from the resident draw. So there are not any 2nd choice tags left over in the non-res draw. This is because there is a non-res quota and the demand is so high that all permits are drawn out on 1st choices. The left over draw in late June has some leftover permits available which are resident quotas that were not filled.
The non-res elk draw works like this. Let's take unit 7 which usually has about 1500 total tags. I think non-res quota is 10%? Let's say that is true. So 150 tags will be drawn for non-residents in their own draw. 75/25% slit applies here too. So 113 goes to preference point holders most to lest until those 113 are drawn. Then you have the 37 remaining tags in a random draw round. They all get filled. Your 1 choice will be looked at in each round. If you have points and your tier gets a chance at available tags then you will have a chance, if not , then your only hope is in the random round.
Hope that helps!
Remember that the non-resident elk draw is separate from the resident draw. So there are not any 2nd choice tags left over in the non-res draw. This is because there is a non-res quota and the demand is so high that all permits are drawn out on 1st choices. The left over draw in late June has some leftover permits available which are resident quotas that were not filled.
The non-res elk draw works like this. Let's take unit 7 which usually has about 1500 total tags. I think non-res quota is 10%? Let's say that is true. So 150 tags will be drawn for non-residents in their own draw. 75/25% slit applies here too. So 113 goes to preference point holders most to lest until those 113 are drawn. Then you have the 37 remaining tags in a random draw round. They all get filled. Your 1 choice will be looked at in each round. If you have points and your tier gets a chance at available tags then you will have a chance, if not , then your only hope is in the random round.
Hope that helps!
This explains exactly what I was missing. The 1st choice is looked at until all the tags are filled, pp and random. Thought so but still was wondering. Guess with one under max in the elk I will have to wait for a better unit for a dyi hunt. Looks like most of the 320 capable units like 30,31,32,100 and 124 are all max points with little to no random. Eventually it will get around to my level. Thanks again to all that helped.
wytex
Very Active Member
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- 1,146
WB I am curious if you think the second choices will be affected since now the tags will be drawn with quotas set?
In the past NR perhaps were granted tags over the quota since the drawing was before the quotas were set in stone so to speak, or am I wrong on that?
You seem to have an excellent grasp on our draw system and always have good info.
In the past NR perhaps were granted tags over the quota since the drawing was before the quotas were set in stone so to speak, or am I wrong on that?
You seem to have an excellent grasp on our draw system and always have good info.
jm77
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-19 AT 04:52PM (MST)[p]>WB I am curious if you
>think the second choices will
>be affected since now the
>tags will be drawn with
>quotas set?
>In the past NR perhaps were
>granted tags over the quota
>since the drawing was before
>the quotas were set in
>stone so to speak, or
>am I wrong on that?
>
>You seem to have an excellent
>grasp on our draw system
>and always have good info.
>
I'm not Bob, but here's how it used to work:
Before the early drawing game managers set what they thought the quotas might be. In most cases they were unchanged, sometimes higher, sometimes lower, but the 16% NR quota was taken from those estimated quotas. The final quotas were set by March and those areas that had increases from the estimated quota, the residents received all the extra tags. In those areas that had decreases, the residents received 84% of the final quota, which meant NR had a higher than 16% of the quota.
In some cases new license types were added and NR didn't get any, residents received 100% of those quotas. There were never cases where license types were removed, even if warranted, because NR had already drawn the tags using the estimated quotas. It was a couple of these situations that prompted Commissioners to take a hard look at why there was a drawing before quotas and seasons were set. It was not game management at it finest and G&F finally saw the writing on the wall.
>think the second choices will
>be affected since now the
>tags will be drawn with
>quotas set?
>In the past NR perhaps were
>granted tags over the quota
>since the drawing was before
>the quotas were set in
>stone so to speak, or
>am I wrong on that?
>
>You seem to have an excellent
>grasp on our draw system
>and always have good info.
>
I'm not Bob, but here's how it used to work:
Before the early drawing game managers set what they thought the quotas might be. In most cases they were unchanged, sometimes higher, sometimes lower, but the 16% NR quota was taken from those estimated quotas. The final quotas were set by March and those areas that had increases from the estimated quota, the residents received all the extra tags. In those areas that had decreases, the residents received 84% of the final quota, which meant NR had a higher than 16% of the quota.
In some cases new license types were added and NR didn't get any, residents received 100% of those quotas. There were never cases where license types were removed, even if warranted, because NR had already drawn the tags using the estimated quotas. It was a couple of these situations that prompted Commissioners to take a hard look at why there was a drawing before quotas and seasons were set. It was not game management at it finest and G&F finally saw the writing on the wall.
JM touched on most of it and in my opinion I don't think we'll see much difference, especially for the 2nd choice you asked about. We only get 16%, which then gets split 60/40 special/regular so it needs to be a decent number of licenses before we'll see much difference on our end.
LAST EDITED ON Dec-25-19 AT 09:12PM (MST)[p]
Short answer:
more NR applying for LQ and Special Gen licenses, leaving fewer to be converted and added to the Special Gen quota, and more 1st choice special gen applications which are drawing all the licenses before they get to the 2nd choices.
long answer:
Nr have a quota of 16% of the total allotment. That 16% is comprised of 16% of each hunt area (lq tags), and 16% of the GEN tags.
In 2018 there were 3,181 nr lq tags available to be drawn. Nr landowners and nr public hunters only applied for, and drew, 2,603 of them. Leaving an un-issued balance of 577 nr lq tags.
In 2018 there were 4,069 GEN tags available to be drawn and nr drew all of them.
3,181 lq tags + 4,069 gen tags = 7,250 total nr tags, as directed by legislation.
Because WY fills party apps up to 6 applicants, there were some hunt areas that exceeded an individual area quota. There were 154 of those "over fill tags" issued in 2018.
Because nr chose not to apply for, and receive, their full 3,181 lq tags, the dept does a quota balance operation, back filling with gen tags, minus the "over fill tags", up to the 7,250 tag requirement. They add those "quota balance" tags to the special gen quota first and go back thru the draw issuing tags to the remaining 1st choice apps. If they get thru 1st choices with tags remaining, they go thru 2nd choices. The quota balance tags aren't shown in the special draw demand report (draw odds) because the report is created before the quota balance operation. Demand has increased for Special Gen licenses, and they now issue all of these quota balance licenses before they get thru the 1st choice apps, and none are available for a 2nd choice.
There were 423 of those quota balance special gen tags issued in 2018 (577-154).
2017, 407
2016, 386
2015, 494
2014, 640
2013, 704
2012, 845
hopefully that makes sense...
Short answer:
more NR applying for LQ and Special Gen licenses, leaving fewer to be converted and added to the Special Gen quota, and more 1st choice special gen applications which are drawing all the licenses before they get to the 2nd choices.
long answer:
Nr have a quota of 16% of the total allotment. That 16% is comprised of 16% of each hunt area (lq tags), and 16% of the GEN tags.
In 2018 there were 3,181 nr lq tags available to be drawn. Nr landowners and nr public hunters only applied for, and drew, 2,603 of them. Leaving an un-issued balance of 577 nr lq tags.
In 2018 there were 4,069 GEN tags available to be drawn and nr drew all of them.
3,181 lq tags + 4,069 gen tags = 7,250 total nr tags, as directed by legislation.
Because WY fills party apps up to 6 applicants, there were some hunt areas that exceeded an individual area quota. There were 154 of those "over fill tags" issued in 2018.
Because nr chose not to apply for, and receive, their full 3,181 lq tags, the dept does a quota balance operation, back filling with gen tags, minus the "over fill tags", up to the 7,250 tag requirement. They add those "quota balance" tags to the special gen quota first and go back thru the draw issuing tags to the remaining 1st choice apps. If they get thru 1st choices with tags remaining, they go thru 2nd choices. The quota balance tags aren't shown in the special draw demand report (draw odds) because the report is created before the quota balance operation. Demand has increased for Special Gen licenses, and they now issue all of these quota balance licenses before they get thru the 1st choice apps, and none are available for a 2nd choice.
There were 423 of those quota balance special gen tags issued in 2018 (577-154).
2017, 407
2016, 386
2015, 494
2014, 640
2013, 704
2012, 845
hopefully that makes sense...
>It's possible but the demand didn't
>skip a beat when they
>went up to $1300. I
>doubt $1500 would do it.
>
I have a feeling that you are 100% correct on that. Maybe the application date / results date change might deter a few but that remains to be seen.
Funny how even with the loss of hunters that we hear about how the tags seem to get getting more difficult to draw.
>skip a beat when they
>went up to $1300. I
>doubt $1500 would do it.
>
I have a feeling that you are 100% correct on that. Maybe the application date / results date change might deter a few but that remains to be seen.
Funny how even with the loss of hunters that we hear about how the tags seem to get getting more difficult to draw.
tagsoup
Active Member
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- 945
>So if we were to see
>a future downturn in demand
>for tags (such as could
>be caused by rule changes)
>then we might someday see
>the 2nd choice Gen tag
>again?
Been doing the out of state game for a long time now and I think the biggest thing that eases demand for tags is a down economy and with high unemployment. If the economy is down and a price increase happens there will be even less people applying.
"Go hunt for meat at Walmart."
>a future downturn in demand
>for tags (such as could
>be caused by rule changes)
>then we might someday see
>the 2nd choice Gen tag
>again?
Been doing the out of state game for a long time now and I think the biggest thing that eases demand for tags is a down economy and with high unemployment. If the economy is down and a price increase happens there will be even less people applying.
"Go hunt for meat at Walmart."
Broomer
Active Member
- Messages
- 240
>There are nr elk tags drawn
>as 2nd choice every year
>and the availability of those
>2nd choice tags can be
>easily seen by looking at
>the random demand report.
So your explanation of all these overage tags and non-resident allocations are really cow tags? Funny that you would make such a big point that there are non-res tags drawn in the 2nd choice when we are really talking about bull tags. I don't know that many non-residents that would pay non-resident prices for an antlerless tag do you?
Anyway so basically there isn't 2nd choice tags available for non-res elk. Like I said earlier.
>as 2nd choice every year
>and the availability of those
>2nd choice tags can be
>easily seen by looking at
>the random demand report.
So your explanation of all these overage tags and non-resident allocations are really cow tags? Funny that you would make such a big point that there are non-res tags drawn in the 2nd choice when we are really talking about bull tags. I don't know that many non-residents that would pay non-resident prices for an antlerless tag do you?
Anyway so basically there isn't 2nd choice tags available for non-res elk. Like I said earlier.
hornkiller
Long Time Member
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- 4,214
You would be surprised how many non res come to wy to hunt cow elk!
ORIONTHEHUNTER
Very Active Member
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Best way to scout different units while sitting on a pile of points
tmbr_hntr
Active Member
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- 326
>Best way to scout different units
>while sitting on a pile
>of points
Biggest waste of time ever when you could be shooting multiple giant bulls in other states at that time! Never understood why someone would go on a cow hunt to look at a unit. That's what summer is for not hunting season!
>while sitting on a pile
>of points
Biggest waste of time ever when you could be shooting multiple giant bulls in other states at that time! Never understood why someone would go on a cow hunt to look at a unit. That's what summer is for not hunting season!
jm77
Long Time Member
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>>Best way to scout different units
>>while sitting on a pile
>>of points
>
>Biggest waste of time ever when
>you could be shooting multiple
>giant bulls in other states
>at that time! Never understood
>why someone would go on
>a cow hunt to look
>at a unit. That's what
>summer is for not hunting
>season!
I've never wasted a single day of my life elk hunting, whether it's for a cow or a bull.
>>while sitting on a pile
>>of points
>
>Biggest waste of time ever when
>you could be shooting multiple
>giant bulls in other states
>at that time! Never understood
>why someone would go on
>a cow hunt to look
>at a unit. That's what
>summer is for not hunting
>season!
I've never wasted a single day of my life elk hunting, whether it's for a cow or a bull.
ORIONTHEHUNTER
Very Active Member
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- 1,558
>>Best way to scout different units
>>while sitting on a pile
>>of points
>
>Biggest waste of time ever when
>you could be shooting multiple
>giant bulls in other states
>at that time! Never understood
>why someone would go on
>a cow hunt to look
>at a unit. That's what
>summer is for not hunting
>season!
You have time to do both trust me I do it. Plus a week during an actual season with boots on the ground is worth way more then summer scouting
>>while sitting on a pile
>>of points
>
>Biggest waste of time ever when
>you could be shooting multiple
>giant bulls in other states
>at that time! Never understood
>why someone would go on
>a cow hunt to look
>at a unit. That's what
>summer is for not hunting
>season!
You have time to do both trust me I do it. Plus a week during an actual season with boots on the ground is worth way more then summer scouting
tmbr_hntr
Active Member
- Messages
- 326
>>>Best way to scout different units
>>>while sitting on a pile
>>>of points
>>
>>Biggest waste of time ever when
>>you could be shooting multiple
>>giant bulls in other states
>>at that time! Never understood
>>why someone would go on
>>a cow hunt to look
>>at a unit. That's what
>>summer is for not hunting
>>season!
>
>
>You have time to do both
>trust me I do it.
>Plus a week during an
>actual season with boots on
>the ground is worth way
>more then summer scouting
Coming from someone who has shot mature bulls in almost every western state(usually a couple a year), many of them in national publications, hunts bulls from August until Nov. and never once scouted via a cow hunt, I disagree with both of these
But, if it works for you guys, knock yourself out. Fewer guys hunting bulls around me!
>>>while sitting on a pile
>>>of points
>>
>>Biggest waste of time ever when
>>you could be shooting multiple
>>giant bulls in other states
>>at that time! Never understood
>>why someone would go on
>>a cow hunt to look
>>at a unit. That's what
>>summer is for not hunting
>>season!
>
>
>You have time to do both
>trust me I do it.
>Plus a week during an
>actual season with boots on
>the ground is worth way
>more then summer scouting
Coming from someone who has shot mature bulls in almost every western state(usually a couple a year), many of them in national publications, hunts bulls from August until Nov. and never once scouted via a cow hunt, I disagree with both of these
But, if it works for you guys, knock yourself out. Fewer guys hunting bulls around me!
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,369
>Coming from someone who has shot
>mature bulls in almost every
>western state(usually a couple a
>year), many of them in
>national publications, hunts bulls from
>August until Nov. and never
>once scouted via a cow
>hunt, I disagree with both
>of these But, if
>it works for you guys,
>knock yourself out. Fewer guys
>hunting bulls around me!
Wow, what publications? Maybe I can learn something from you about killing mature bulls.
>mature bulls in almost every
>western state(usually a couple a
>year), many of them in
>national publications, hunts bulls from
>August until Nov. and never
>once scouted via a cow
>hunt, I disagree with both
>of these
But, if >it works for you guys,
>knock yourself out. Fewer guys
>hunting bulls around me!
Wow, what publications? Maybe I can learn something from you about killing mature bulls.
nfh
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,670
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-19 AT 12:47PM (MST)[p]I think I will just keep my mouth shut and see where this thread goes. I will get my popcorn ready
I just know in some areas scouting in the summer doesn't help much. Depending when/where a nasty storm comes in you have to be prepared to make a drastic change in your hunting. But what do I know. I don't shoot multiple bulls every year nor am I in multiple publications
I just know in some areas scouting in the summer doesn't help much. Depending when/where a nasty storm comes in you have to be prepared to make a drastic change in your hunting. But what do I know. I don't shoot multiple bulls every year nor am I in multiple publications
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-19
>AT 12:47?PM (MST)
>
>I think I will just keep
>my mouth shut and see
>where this thread goes. I
>will get my popcorn ready
>
>
>
>I just know in some areas
>scouting in the summer doesn't
>help much. Depending when/where a
>nasty storm comes in you
>have to be prepared to
>make a drastic change in
>your hunting. But what do
>I know. I don't shoot
>multiple bulls every year nor
>am I in multiple publications
>
I agree! This is getting interesting
>AT 12:47?PM (MST)
>
>I think I will just keep
>my mouth shut and see
>where this thread goes. I
>will get my popcorn ready
>
>
>
>I just know in some areas
>scouting in the summer doesn't
>help much. Depending when/where a
>nasty storm comes in you
>have to be prepared to
>make a drastic change in
>your hunting. But what do
>I know. I don't shoot
>multiple bulls every year nor
>am I in multiple publications
>
I agree! This is getting interesting
ORIONTHEHUNTER
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,558
>>>>Best way to scout different units
>>>>while sitting on a pile
>>>>of points
>>>
>>>Biggest waste of time ever when
>>>you could be shooting multiple
>>>giant bulls in other states
>>>at that time! Never understood
>>>why someone would go on
>>>a cow hunt to look
>>>at a unit. That's what
>>>summer is for not hunting
>>>season!
>>
>>
>>You have time to do both
>>trust me I do it.
>>Plus a week during an
>>actual season with boots on
>>the ground is worth way
>>more then summer scouting
>
>Coming from someone who has shot
>mature bulls in almost every
>western state(usually a couple a
>year), many of them in
>national publications, hunts bulls from
>August until Nov. and never
>once scouted via a cow
>hunt, I disagree with both
>of these But, if
>it works for you guys,
>knock yourself out. Fewer guys
>hunting bulls around me!
Let's see all these publications and multiple big bulls
>>>>while sitting on a pile
>>>>of points
>>>
>>>Biggest waste of time ever when
>>>you could be shooting multiple
>>>giant bulls in other states
>>>at that time! Never understood
>>>why someone would go on
>>>a cow hunt to look
>>>at a unit. That's what
>>>summer is for not hunting
>>>season!
>>
>>
>>You have time to do both
>>trust me I do it.
>>Plus a week during an
>>actual season with boots on
>>the ground is worth way
>>more then summer scouting
>
>Coming from someone who has shot
>mature bulls in almost every
>western state(usually a couple a
>year), many of them in
>national publications, hunts bulls from
>August until Nov. and never
>once scouted via a cow
>hunt, I disagree with both
>of these
But, if >it works for you guys,
>knock yourself out. Fewer guys
>hunting bulls around me!
Let's see all these publications and multiple big bulls
Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters
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