Pol-------Lead Ban

BuckSnort · Feb 3, 2008

I was just curious to how many of you are effected by this lame law starting this year. If you dont know if your hunt area is effected ere is a map.. http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/Ridley-TreeCondorPreservationAct.pdf

In my opinion it's a joke.All of this for a damn vulture.

easymoney · Feb 4, 2008

I am one of those affected by this silly law, trying stem the inevitable extinction of an obsolete animal that can not adapt to current circumstances.
That being said, all hunters and gun owners had better wake up and smell the latte. This is just the foot in the door they need, bullet stamping, bullet ID numbers, higher fees and making us law abiding citizens the brunt of their stupid legislation, demanding we pay to support an animal that can't live in the wild any more without man's help ...
Some of their historic food sources were sea lions, elephant seals, harbor seals, and otters, all marine mammals that are now protected and do not frequent their historic habitats as they did in days of old. Habitat change, real estate development, high power lines, all contribute to the demise of many wild animal species but none of those is being singled out like lead bullets for attack.
Be afraid, be very afraid...

Stop Global Whining

YukonDall · Feb 5, 2008

I GUESS I SHOOT TSX BULLETS FROM NOW ON..... I HOPE THEY WILL PERFORM ON CONDORS.....YD. (JUST FUNIN).

Cuacopollo · Jan 29, 2010

Was this a poll or a whine? I have switched mostly to no lead for everytning and it works great for me.... steel shot for quail, dove, and TSX for big game. Love the results. I get good groups out beyond 500 yards in 7MM and .300 Win.

Lead has seriously impacted condors in Arizona, with 8 or more killed, and many more requiring intervention. With only a few dozen left, every individual matters. They are cool birds! Check the Arizona Game and fish website for more info.

For those of you that complain that copper costs so much more than lead.... What? You spend hundreds on gas, food, time off work, vehicle, guns etc to go hunting, but it is the $40 box of ammo that will keep you from going??? Copper is about $4.00 per pound, lead about $1/pound. What you pay for in the bullet is the engineering and manufacture and profit, not much in the raw material.

In humans, lead blood concentration has been directly correlated with IQ reduction. A very linear cause ad effect. I am dumb as a post and choose not to risk losing any more, so avoiding lead for my family food is an easy choice to make. True, hunters blood levels are generally not high enough to be a concern. I choose not to use poison when there are equally good or better alternatives.

D13er · Jan 29, 2010

yep, lead poisoning from bullets and global warming will be the end of those buzzards...finally.

great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB

nickman · Jan 29, 2010

OK........I'll buy into everything you say here.....except the part about how ingested lead has affected Condors, either in Arizona or California.......or any wildlife, anywhere.

That is a completely overblown distortion of facts, from a "study" that DFG bought into and rolled over for. I'm suprised you failed to mention the anti-freeze the Condors drank after it boiled over from vehicles, in their area.(Part of the same study)

Like I said, I pretty much agree that common sense dictates that we get lead out of our lives, but I despise some "nature faker" using BS...Global Warming...scare tactics, to legislate me into ANYTHING.

Wiszard · Jan 29, 2010

Anybody ever read this article? I'll bet not. I was searching google about lead poisoning of the Condor. Every article has the same premise.....lead fragments from hunters.....
I found this article on the 5th page of my "lead poisoning Condors" search. The 5th page to find something positive that the hunting community is doing to try to rectify a situation. The media slams us anytime they can and never talks about us in a positive light. I just can't see how there can be so many shot animals where lead fragments have been left behind that most of the condors are dying. It just doesn't seem feasible. Are there that many dead animals out there that have been shot by hunters that leave lead fragments behind? Anyway, here is the first couple paragraphs from the article.

Hunters aid in recovery for California condor
Mar 14, 2009 12:00 PM

The hunting community has been helping overcome a serious threat to the endangered California condor's survival - lead poisoning. Condors are scavengers and rely upon finding carcasses and remains of range cattle, deer, pigs and other wildlife for food. If the carrion is lead-free, condors will have no problems. Unfortunately, many have been killed after feeding on dead animals that contain fragments of lead shot.

There has been widespread involvement from hunters in ending this threat. For example, Arizona has been providing copper ammunition to hunters for two years, and reports indicate that 90 percent of hunters are using this viable alternative to lead. A similar program is now underway in the Zion region of Utah. California now requires the use of non-toxic bullets within the condor's range, and a recent study found that this was being complied with by 99 percent of hunters.

?We greatly appreciate that most hunters are now using non-toxic ammunition. Hunters play a critical role in providing food for condors, and we want to encourage hunters to leave gut piles and varmints in the field, providing they have been shot with non-toxic ammo.? said Dr. Michael Fry, American Bird Conservancy's director of Conservation Advocacy. ?We were also thrilled to learn that Winchester will soon be producing non-toxic .22 caliber ammo.?

Steve

sageadvice · Jan 29, 2010

Not me!! I'm too far north. If i come across a non-lead loading that works well in my rifles, i'm definitely not against it!

Any word on how lead 22lr ammo can be used? I just can't see expecting you guys to shoot non lead 22 stuff.

Joey

RELH · Jan 29, 2010

I remember reading one article, can not recall who published it. That stated one of the condors that was born and raised in captivity also died and had a high lead content according to autopsy results. This bird had never eaten any dead carcass in the wild that would have poisoned it.
If factual, that means there may be another source for the lead in their bodies.

RELH

nickman · Jan 30, 2010

Beside the antifreeze statement, my favorite part of the original study, was the numbers.

....."30,000 carcases and gut piles, containing lead fragments......in a 6 month study of the Condor nesting/roosting area".

And college educated, public officials, paid with my tax dollars, bought into this! How embarrassing!

In the first place, I doubt that there are 30,000 animals, of any sort, in the study area, much less 30,000 dead ones WITH lead fragments.

Do the simple math......that's 167 dead animals, or gut piles.....with lead fragments... found EVERY DAY for 180 days!

It dosen't take a nuclear scientist to see who is actually shooting in these areas either.......(depending on how "racist" you want to believe I am, these people ain't LEAVIN' dead animals ANYWHERE!...Condors included!)

The really sad part is the fact that these "researchers" knew full well, that they could pass this bogus crap on to the DFG and Sacramento and there would be NO ONE to dispute the ludicrous numbers.

Enjoy it while it lasts boys, because its going fast and there is no one on our side.

We're sorta like the Condor.....there is just no place for us in California any more. Trouble is, more people like the Condors than like the hunters.

*******RECIPES UPON REQUEST*****

Cuacopollo · Jan 31, 2010

For those daring enough to be informed, go to this link.

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml

For those who have made up their minds, regardless of hard data, believe what you want to believe.

Wiszard · Jan 31, 2010

RELH- That was actually what I was trying to look up. I remember something to that effect that it was proven that a condor that hadn't been "out in the world" had lead poisoning. I didn't want to bring it up without anything backing it up. I'm not sure where that report could be found.

Steve

Cuacopollo · Feb 3, 2010

RELH +1, I would like to see the source as well on the high lead levels in captive Condor chicks. Lead is an element, it can't be "created" in the bird. It has to come from exposure to it in diet, air, through skin or some such. Sounds like it may be another urban legend....

eelgrass · Feb 3, 2010

Joey, I see that .22 ammo is now available in nob-toxic bullets.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/whatsnew/newproducts.aspx

As silly as this lead ban might be, or seem to be, at least it's an easy fix. Just switch to non lead bullets. There doesn't appear to be any loss of performance by switching. More expensive of course.

When lead shot was first outlawed it wasn't that easy. Early steel shot shells were beyond terrible. I even quit for a few years because of the waste that was occuring from using steel. Steel shot shells still sucks don't get me wrong, but they are a lot better now. Other non toxic shot is cost prohibitive for me. I refuse to pay $2 a shell. $6 every time you empty your gun? Not me.

The way things are going I don't see much good in complaining. We're more out numbered every day.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.

BuckSnort · Feb 3, 2010

Well it really sucks when you have spent the time and money developing loads for every rifle in the safe and then loading 300-1000 rounds for each rifle...Then to find out some tree huggers agenda is to get rid of lead bullets so they can get their foot in the door for total gun control..

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sageadvice · Feb 3, 2010

Snort, Waddaya got?

Eel, Thanks for that link! Doesn't sound like they got all the bugs worked out yet but that's the first i've heard of them. I'm betting that guys at the range and out plinking in the field are still using up some of the 22lr stuff they had. I know i would!!

Joey

easymoney · Feb 3, 2010

OK, it's been two years now with the total ban on lead in So. CA.
Question, how many condors have died since it went into place? What was the cause of death? How many have flourished? What is the total number of birds in the wild? How many dead game animals have been found with lead in them? How much is the total cost for the switch over from lead ammo? How much tax money was spent all of this research?

Stop Global Whining

eelgrass · Feb 4, 2010

BS, I feel your pain! I still have about 50 lbs. of lead shot and hundreds of useless empty cases for shotgun. I did melt down 40 lbs. of lead to use as ballast in my scull boat.

Come up to the B zone and hunt with me. Or better yet let's move to a better State!

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.

Wiszard · Feb 4, 2010

easymoney- Those are very good questions. I would imagine that seeing that the condor activists have won their battle, they will definately not bring it up that the population is increasing. Even though I'm sure they'd love to say "I told you so". I think they'll say anything to keep this ban in tact and not put out any information for 10 years or so. The more time that passes with little pressure from anyone wanting results on what the lead ban has proved, the better for them.

Steve

Califelkslayer · Feb 4, 2010

Eel, what size??? I'll take it off of your hands.

eelgrass · Feb 5, 2010

6's an 4's and 71/2's. I'm keeping them for now.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.

NMPaul · Feb 5, 2010

I dont believe any of them any more. They lied about the Lynx in the NW, they lied about global warming and I am convinced they are lying about lead for the condor.

I would rather be wrong that continue to be a sucker. Consider the source and that pretty much says it all.

KA hunting is like a patient on the operating table. Bleeding out fast.

***********************************

Margaret Thatcher: "The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money."

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything he doesn't own." - Unknown