RAC's

[iliveinthewoods]

I was just wondering if we can get a count on the vote's from all of the RAC meetings, this should tell us what direction that the state will go with...

If you know the results and the region, post em'!

 

[travismadden]

I think the Northern was 12-0 for Option 1 and the Central was 10-1 for Option 1

 

[Muley_73]

The Southern RAC voted 9-3 in favor of Option 2.
The Southeast RAC voted 7-3 in favor of Option 2.

Looks like the areas that actually have some deer left want to save them. Lets all hope the Northeast region can keep the ball rolling!

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.

 

[iliveinthewoods]

When is the last rac? tonight?

 

[Packout]

So that is what 31-23 for option 1. The Board will be a split vote also.

I don't understand how guys can't understand that the Mule Deer management Plan already has the state divided into 40+ units which can be manipulated on every level if they are not meeting objectives: predator management, seasonal road closures, season length, micro-units not meeting objectives, etc..... I guess they have not read the Plan.... All this effort protecting 1-3 bucks on units already meeting the buck objectives. What a waste. Where are the fawns going?

 

[pookiebar]

Maybe they should allow the units that want to go to option 2 to try it out. Seems like a good expirement to see what really works in different areas.

 

[Muley_73]

Packout,
Is that how he RACS work? Each individual vote counts? I thought whatever option passed that RAC is what that RAC would support? Am I wrong on that? The DWR loses control of each unit when the hunts open. That is as per Anis himself! Not to mention that their deer count came off of 7 units? Is that also correct?

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.

 

[Packout]

Muley- just pointing out how spilt everyone is on the issue. Does 2 to 3 mean more than 31 -26 or whatever? Not really. The point was all this is doing is dividing hunters. Each side can try to say "we won" when in reality EVERYONE looses.

I know you think that option 2 will somehow give us more bucks, true counts, more law enforcement, more fawns living to become more doe and bucks, etc. I don't see the same outcome.

The UDWR does the counts. Their data is what manages the herds. Option 2 does nothing to change that. No matter what you want to believe, the UDWR is supposed to be managing herds on unit-by-unit basis. The Mule Deer Plan already has the strategies on how they are supposed to be managing the units. Go read the Plan and then hold their feet to the fire on what really counts-- ways to grow more deer and not just a few more bucks.

The buck ratios meet their unit objectives under Regional hunting. Those which do not are being microed out. As per the current Plan, which has been in place for 1 year. The data that says that today will be the same data that you see if Option 2 passes.

And yes, there are not enough deer in Utah for real. Too bad all the current energy is only focused on growing a few more bucks.

 

[Muley_73]

Packout,
The units under objective going to a 3 day hunt, only hurts the units in the region that are still open! Anis himself says he thinks the 3 day hunt has not effect?

Explain to me how going to micro units hurts the deer? YOUR plan that you have worked hard on can be applied with more focus on micro unit managment. The DWR does need their feet held to the fire, you are 100% correct. However that is what some of us are trying to do now and other groups disagree. The BOWHUNTERS ASSOCIATIONS will never go against the DWR for fear of losing a relationship they have built for 30 years. Hunters that want to hunt every year regardless of how many deer there are will always scream even if it is better to cut tags. Hell at the Northern RAC two people stood up and ask that we allow either sex hunting beacause it would make it easier! Trophy hunters will always want more and bigger bucks. But to this point the DWR has chose to really do nothing! So let break it down to smaller units and try some different things to see what will really work. It is easy to blame this whole thing on wanting more and bigger bucks but the only people I hear bring that up are the people opposed to Option 2? Go read the posts that is not what most of them are asking for.

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.

 

[Packout]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-10 AT 04:38PM (MST)[p]So now you want to believe the UDWR when it coincides with your stance? What is it? Their deer herd data is wrong, but their hunting days data is correct? The UDWR has said shortened hunts do not hurt and it may help. The Southern RAC and public has fought to keep the 5 day hunt, believing it had helped herds recover. Of course that was last year and in Utah a year seems to make all the difference.

The people asking for either-sex hunting are just as bad as the ones requesting huge tag cuts under micro-management or shutting down the state. Both are extremes.

Micromanaging deer herds helps herds. Micro-managing bucks, when they are meeting the objectives, may hurt deer once lobbyists cut hunter opportunity and increase those buck numbers. At least that is the conclusion of Colorado and Nevada biologists. (I would include Utah biologists, but people don't seem to believe them.)

You say "It is easy to blame this whole thing on wanting more and bigger bucks but the only people I hear bring that up are the people opposed to Option 2? Go read the posts that is not what most of them are asking for." But that is the problem. ALL of these options ONLY deal with GROWING MORE BUCKS. When you understand that then we can have a true breakdown of the deer situation in Utah. Until then it is pointless because your stance appears to be that growing more bucks (option 2) will somehow save the deer herd in Utah.

How has Micro-managing bucks grown the deer herds on the San Juan, 1000 Lakes, or Oak Creeks?

How will micro-managing bucks help herds grow, giving Utah more deer? (Not more bucks, but more deer)

 

[Muley_73]

I never said that I agreed with Anis. Did I? I only repeated what he said. I do believe 3 and 5 days hunts help. Anis himself at the Northern RAC said it did nothing. He said you would have to go to a one day hunt to see an effect. So nice shot, but a miss!

Don't try to throw out the Oak Creek and 1000 Lake at me either. I know what hurts both of those units. FIRST HAND! you? Do you? Please tell me why they do not work? Because I would be courious what your thoughts are! How much time do you spend on those units? Both units suffer from their own unique issues. Just like many units. I will tell you this if the units around them where managed on a micro unit system rather than region it would make a huge difference on those units!

Basically what you are telling me is the DWR is not currently doing their job? So you believe we should just sit back and let things play out? Oh I know you have a plan in place. However that plan could be played out perfectly in a unit managment system just as easy as in a region system. So I'll take a turn putting words in your mouth. What you are saying is hunters in the field are the most important issue we should be addressing concerning our deer herds and you believe we should let as many as we want as long as they only shoot bucks?

There are not enough deer in Utah...FOR REAL.

 

[Packout]

Where to start. You show no interest in true dialogue.

Once again you avoid questions that would further the topic. You can't state how micro-ing those units has helped deer, because it hasn't helped deer. Now, I am all in-favor of having limited entry units such as we have, so don't start the non-sense that I want unlimited hunting. In fact, I was the one who pushed the shortened days on the Mule Deer Committee. I was the one who pushed micro-ing out struggling units. I support cutting some tags, when necessary to manage the buck herd within the Regional format. So it appears that I do not want unlimited permits or unlimited opportunity.

I think if people see areas where the UDWR is failing to follow the current Management Plan then by all means, call them out on it. Have they worked with other land agencies in seasonal road closures? The answer might be interesting. Have they instituted predator management on struggling units? Have they identified areas for highway fencing projects? Have they microed-out struggling units? All are strategies they are supposed to be using, plus more....

And yes, I have spent time on the Oak and 1000 units. Enough to see it with my own eyes, on my own feet. That is why I used those units as an example. Under the micro-managment buck option, those units should be flowing with deer, but they are not. Lots of solid, mature bucks with a true lack of doe and fawns. Great for the lucky hunter who draws a tag.

No real need for you to respond to this post. Nothing much good comes from these posts. It seems like people gloss-over and won't try to understand other points of view on these forums. When I talked with your Dad he started out rather upset and unwilling to listen. It seemed after a few minutes of actual talking and listening we had a decent discussion and ended agreeing on 90% of the overall deer issue. Of course he felt microing bucks is best and I don't.