Researching for Zion unit Desert big horn tag

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BJV3

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LAST EDITED ON May-20-14 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-20-14 AT 04:07?PM (MST)

This blows my mind that my son drew a Zion unit tag with 7 points but now the research begins. So many questions.
Is it advisable to hire a guide for this unit? Or can it be done DIY style?
We have plenty of hunting knowledge and experience not necessarily in this unit though.
Those that have hunted it how treacherous and demanding is the terrain?
Is there a better time during the season to hunt them? For example earlier or later in the season.
What caliber do you think is best? 270 wsm or .264 win mag? Or something else?
Is a 4 wheeler of valuable use in that unit?
How difficult is it to locate sheep down there?
What other questions should I be asking?
We are looking for all the help and advice we can get.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-20-14 AT 04:38PM (MST)[p]Congrats on your sons tag!!! It will be an awesome hunt. I'm not familiar with the Zion's unit, but if you haven't sheep hunted, I would suggest hiring a guide. That is the best unit in the state and he has the chance to not only take a ram, but to take a really good ram. I'm pretty certain that LBH on this site will be hunting the Zion unit this year. I know that he has done his research and he may be able to give you some guidance on going guided vs. unguided. Keep us up to date as you get ready for the hunt. Check your PM.
 
from my experience I would say if your not willing to put in some serious scouting time your best way to do the tag justice would be to hire a guide, Randy Johnson is top notch, Brad Turner (trammer) on this site is another good choice, do your research either way. good luck and I hope you stick around long enough to share your experience and not just get some info and never be seen again


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
No problem.
Just contact my buddy littlebighorn. He drew the tag this year and I'm sure he'll tell you and your son where to go!!!!
He's already been down twice...or is it 3 times?
Zeke
 
Your son is very lucky to be hunting this unit so early in his hunting experience. I believe a DRam hunt is the ultimate North American hunting experience and it has taken me over forty years of applying to finally draw my tag.
I only have a handful of Desert sheep hunting experiences, but I can tell you finding rams is the difficult part. Your weapon is the least of your worries. Any flat shooting caliber that you can shoot straight, will kill sheep, but if you don't have top quality optics and some advanced glassing experience, you will struggle to even find them, much less kill one. The Zion is thick country and that seriously compounds the spotting issue.
You can access some areas with an ATV and others are Wilderness areas with very limited water. We struggled last week to even find pot holes, despite recent rains.
Guide vs DIY is up to you. The Zion can be done on your own, but sheep hunting experience is way different than deer and elk so if you go on your own you will have to put in the time.
I'm glad to give you guide references if you want to PM me.
Good luck to you and your son. Hopefully we will run into each other this fall.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-14 AT 09:32PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-14 AT 09:28?PM (MST)

Like Littlebighorn said the Zion unit is unlike any Desert Sheep unit I have ever seen because of the Thick brush and PJ cover the entire unit. Parunaweep is in desperate need of a controlled burn. The sheep there are in such good numbers that they show up in weird places. In addition, the unit really should be split into 3 units. Parunaweep, Moquith Mountain and Canaan Mountain.The Zion Name should be dropped altogether.When you tell people you are hunting the Zion unit, they are lead to believe you are hunting in the National Park.

Initially, you are faced with another problem that for the most part only affects Zion, KEast and Escalante hunters and that is: The State of Utah holds its Sheep Drawing a full 6 weeks later than it should. Due to temperatures, any attempt at backpack scouting will be difficult at best. Even scouting from a tent or camper will be miserable because of 80 degree night time temperatures, 100+ during the day and the cedar gnats and Sand Mites will drive you nuts.You will need to be carefull not to over exert or dehydrate while you are scouting this summer.

If Utah would move its sheep drawing date to 6 weeks earlier.When you draw a sheep tag you would be able to do some great spring scouting when the weather is perfect to do so.

The unit is amazing and does provide for some of the easiest and most difficult sheep hunting Utah offers: if you chose to pack into the Northern parts of Canaan Mountain the hunt can be as hard as The Escalante. Or if you were to hunt Parunaweep, you may find your ram from and within shooting distance of a 4 wheeler.

The most important thing to remember is that Utah Is very conservative in how it issues Ram tags. I suspect the unit holds between 120 and 150 rams.I saw 57 different rams hunting the unit last year. Rams are literally dying of old age through out the unit.There are enough big old Rams in the Zion for every hunter to take a Boone and Crocket Class 10 year old ram! Dont shoot a ram unless it is one or the other and preferably both.
 
>Like Littlebighorn said the Zions unit
>is unlike any Desert Sheep
>unit I have ever seen
>because of the Thick brush
>and PJ cover the entire
>unit. Parunaweep is in desperate
>need of a controlled burn.
>The sheep there are in
>such good numbers that they
>show up in weird places.
>In addition, the unit really
>should be split into 3
>units. Parunaweep, Moquith Mountain and
>Canaan Mountain.The Zions Name should
>be dropped altogether.When you tell
>people you are hunting the
>Zions unit, they are lead
>to believe you are hunting
>in the National Park.
>
>Initially, you are faced with another
>problem that for the most
>part only affects Zions, KEast
>and Escalante hunters and that
>is: The State of Utah
>holds its Sheep Drawing a
>full 6 weeks later than
>it should. Due to temperatures,
>any attempt at backpack scouting
>will be difficult at best.
>Even scouting from a tent
>or camper will be miserable
>because of 80 degree night
>time temperatures, 100+ during the
>day and the cedar gnats
>and Sand Mites will drive
>you nuts.You will need to
>be carefull not to over
>exert or dehydrate while you
>are scouting this summer.
>
>If Utah would move its sheep
>drawing date to 6 weeks
>earlier.When you draw a sheep
>tag you would be able
>to do some great spring
>scouting when the weather is
>perfect to do so.
>
>The unit is amazing and does
>provide for some of the
>easiest and most difficult sheep
>hunting Utah offers: if you
>chose to pack into the
>Northern parts of Canaan Mountain
>the hunt can be as
>hard as The Escalante. Or
>if you were to hunt
>Parunaweep, you may find your
>ram from and within shooting
>distance of a 4 wheeler.
>
>
>The most important thing to remember
>is that Utah Is very
>conservative in how it issues
>Ram tags. I suspect the
>unit holds between 120 and
>150 rams.I saw 57 different
>rams hunting the unit last
>year. last year. Rams are
>literally dying of old age
>through out the unit.There are
>enough big old Rams in
>the Zions for every hunter
>to take a Boone and
>Crocket Class 10 year old
>ram! Dont shoot a ram
>unless it is one or
>the other and preferably both.
>
>
>
>
>


Trammer, I've been saying the same thing about the Stansbury unit.
BTW, it's Zion, no "s" on the end.
Sorry, just seems like everyone from S. Utah, calls it Zions.lol
 
Hi BJV3,

I have acquired some insight on this hunt... Some is very similar to the information above. I drew the expo DSheep tag for Zion for 2014. I am seeking as much information as possible. I know there are more than 2 B&C rams in the unit, I would rather share information and and try to learn something than hunt competitively. Message me back if you feel the same and we will exchange numbers.
-Ryan
 
>Hi BJV3,
>
>I have acquired some insight on
>this hunt... Some is very
>similar to the information above.
> I drew the expo
>DSheep tag for Zion for
>2014. I am seeking as
>much information as possible. I
>know there are more than
>2 B&C rams in the
>unit, I would rather share
>information and and try to
>learn something than hunt competitively.
> Message me back if
>you feel the same and
>we will exchange numbers.
>-Ryan

Pm sent
 
9041recordrams1.jpg
 
desertcathunter, are these the photos of the big ones? If so you should stick to cats. Neither of these rams is a shooter.

Grand Slam #911
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-14 AT 11:35AM (MST)[p]Brad
i think your right on your post as far these are not the type of rams you would want to kill on the zion unit. but thanks for sharing the pics with us anyway i like to look at sheep regardless of size. good luck to all the sheep hunters this year. if it is yuor first tag enjoy the ride...it will be epic if you treat it with the respect it deserves.



How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
I don't know Rick or Mike. Sorry guys, probably my loss.

I do know Brad (Trammer), I have sheep hunted in the same unit with Brad and have spent time at his camp, I found him to be honest and forthcoming. We've talked many times since then. Few guys can match his passion, knowledge, judgement and hard work on desert sheep in Utah. He's also fun to talk to. I'll listen to Brad anytime he's talking.

End of story.
Zeke
 
>desertcathunter, are these the photos of
>the big ones? If so
>you should stick to cats.
>Neither of these rams is
>a shooter.
>
>Grand Slam #911

I guess I know a little more about sheep then I was thinking I did because the first thing I said was where is the mass on these sheep. Then Trammer chimes in and I am like damn I was right :). They aren't bad sheep but I would think they have 2 or 3 years to go. I would hate to shoot a young one and kill off the older one too!


?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
My advice is to learn how to score desert sheep. In the past 5 years climbing all over the Zion unit, and I mean all over, nooks and crannies, hunting deer and sheep the only rams that I have seen any better are in the Park eating crackers from tourists. Prior to living on the Zion Unit, I lived in Escalante for 35 years and hiked every inch of the Escalante and Kaiparowits units. I have worked with biologists, flown and handled live sheep with the Australian Pilots moving sheep. Have a biologist or Randy Johnson, Shawn Labrum, Wade Lemon or Doyle Moss take a look at these bad boys and listen to what they say!

These photos were taken from nearly a mile away and from high above these sheep. It is extremely hard to see their full mass from above, it is easiest on the same level. If anyone can post a 2014 photo of larger Zions desert sheep or a desert ram from any legal Utah desert sheep unit I'll eat my words.

I would like to post some photos of harvested sheep with known scores and see how you do. When you take a photo from 2 feet away looking up sheep look huge.
 
4348sheepcomparison.jpg



4875065.jpg




All these sheep except the dead one are the Zions Desert Sheep I have posted. All are in a sheep class so far above most desert sheep that it is in comparison to the class of this buck we are watching to your average mule deer buck.

Can anyone guess the score of the dead sheep?
 
The dead ram is clearly a 180 class ram and is in a completely different class than the live pics. The best live pic is the one from the back with the blue sky. It shows about a 165 class sheep. More accurately a 160 to 168 score ram. The best ram of the 2 you originally posted is the long, flared ram. He has 2 of the 6 things needed to be a great ram. He has the length (about 35 inches) and the bases (maybe) you wont know till he is on the ground.

Thats why I ALWAYS give a ram an 8 inch swing when guessing the score. 4 inches on the low side and 4 inches on the high side should you be half an inch off on the mass.Half an inch multiplied by 8 mass measurements equals 4 inches. Your big ram is already losing it (mass) at the first quarter and it gets worse in the second and third quarters.The pics are poor quality but Let me sharpen my pencil.
 
All I can make him into is: 35 length 14.5 base 13 1st quarter 11 at the half and 7 at the 3rd quarter. I got him at 161. He might go up in score with some better pics at more angles.Let me see if I can upload some pics or video for you.

Grand Slam #911
 
Well here is where it will get interesting for you. The clear blue sky ram is the very same ram only 4 years ago. Only now he has lost a couple of chunks from fighting and has more length and mass. The blue sky photo was taken from 200 yards and the other video which has been freeze framed and photos extracted from nearly a mile away. The Utah State record for Desert Sheep taken on the Pine Valley in 2001 is 174 2/8. I believe both these sheep are pushing that number. I will post a couple of more photos for you to consider. And yes the dead sheep is in a different class maybe two inches in the first mass measurement and one or two in the others. That will amount to about 10 inches in mass. He may have 4 total inches in length, but he is swept back from the skull and the live sheep particlarly the lighter ram goes foward and up before he ever starts back. I give him 14 inches larger. At 184 that makes these sheep in the 170 class. Personally I think they are several inches larger from my experience handling and scoring sheep from the Zion. I will make this challange, I would like to see a photo, video of a living Utah desert sheep that is larger
 
7210hugeramscompare.jpg


For comparison here is the world record Archery ram at 178 6/8 and the Meeski Arizona ram at 186 and change.

I think either of these Utah desert rams could beat the Utah state record of 174 2/8 I also think the body size of these Zion rams are larger than the dead sheep.

I could be wrong but my gut tells me I'm not!
 
Thank you for the better photos. Due to the better pics I recognize the rams. They are a ram band of actually 3 rams that I call the Texas Trio. They are good rams but not great rams. Last year when we were hunting the unit we passed up all 3 of these rams. I too have seen them this year and have pics and videos of them. RC the ram with the Right Chunk missing scores right at 165, Pretty Boy (the flawless ram) does score right at 166 and the best of the 3 is LLC (little left chip)and he scores right at about 167. I have studied and scored all 3 between B&C one time listing of 165 and the alltime listing of 168. Fine rams to be sure but 10 plus inches shy of what it will take to make The Utah State Record. I will post a video of our hunt last year in about a week and you will see great footage of all 3 rams as we pass them up and even 1 better one that we think scores about 171. Last year our final choice of the ram we shot came down to a choice between a truthfull 171 ram and a 172 ram that we upgraded to 173 after about 6 hours and study from 6 experienced Sheep Guides.

Grand Slam #911
 
Neither ram is flawless the one you are calling pretty boy actually has two large chunks gone. One on the top of the right side and another chunk off the back near the second measurement. We've watched these guys several times and never seen a third ram.

At 1500 yards refraction is making over an inch of mass disappear. You can't even see the major chunks gone without the right angle. Look carefully at the halo of light, you will see a fuzzy edge add an inch and you will be close. In 2009 I killed the Utah state record archery typical bull elk. Sunlight at 10 feet made the entire main beam at the back disappear in some photos. When I get some close clear footage we can have this discussion again. I have several hours of video of these sheep and they are wicked big. Lets say for the record I am off ten inches and these desert sheep are just mid 160's qualifying for Boone and Crockett and or all time Boone and Crockett, how many hunters are going to kill a desert sheep like this in their lifetime? What percent of hunters that actually draw the tag? What size did your client kill last year? If we get clients this year both these sheep will be gone unless something more amazing crawls out of the park looking for love.
346sunsetbull.jpg
 
I accept your challenge. Here is the ram we shot last year. Its right horn doubled scored 175 6/8 and its left horn doubled scored scored 171 2/8 I called it at 173. It grosses B&C 173 4/8 I think this ram is bigger than any ram in your pics. Primarily because it has a broomed long horn of 38 inches. None of the rams in your pics will make 3 feet.
 
BJV3, I hope you read the thread and realize that life is so much more fun than going guided. The Zion unit is a good one and there are rams to hunt. Call the biologist and ask for help here from past hunters. Then take your son and shoot a ram that makes you happy. After it is all over you can take the $6,000+ you saved by not hiring a guide and use it to fly the wife over to Hawaii for a good vacation.
 
Sorry but I go with Trammer on this one, considering he has the track record and the man ditched his wife for the anniversary to go sheep hunting. Okay I really don't know if he did that last part but the man is a sheep maniac.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
I could not have begged for a better conversation. I have learned a ton in a short while about this unit. I will be scouting next week and would like to see the rams inside the park. Can anyone give me a clue where they are hanging out? I think that if I could get some pictures of them it would be a good way to judge their size.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-11-14 AT 10:35PM (MST)[p]I have seen them everywhere in the park, mostly by the east entrance tho. I get lucky and see them off the road a lot just before the tunnels. I go down late summer so I can't say that you will for sure see them there this time of year, last time I was there this time of year I seen some sheep in the spotter but it was by Angles Landing. Hope this helps.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
desertcathunter, I have been looking for a guy like you "who has lived in Escalante for 35 years and hiked every inch of the Escalante and Kaparowitz" The questions I have are about routes. First, what are the routes from East Moody Canyon into Forks Canyon AKA Georges Camp Canyon? in the escalante? and What is the route onto Muzuki Point in the Kaparowitz?
 
Nice sheep is it a Zion Ram? Great length and mass. Pretty hard to tell which sheep is bigger but all definately class 4 rams. until you get them on the ground there are many variables, like if a measurement falls on a big chip etc. we'll sure do it if we get the chance, then we'll compare notes!

Trammer I know your being a smart ass but I don't mind. Mazuki Point, I've been close but without a chopper you wouldn't catch me dead trying to walk that hog back. There are two ways to get close, one is through Little Valley past the old Rucker trailers and out Grand Bench where Harvey Clive Baily found burro bones and Spanish Pack Saddles back in the day. I've been in the area many times looking for that Lost Spanish Pack Train...and hunting big deer. Have a horn from the Buck of Justice I picked up not too far away! The second route is one I've done a time or two that is off the Spencers Point Trail....not too many know there's a trail that goes off but there is. One fork goes over to Buck Horn Flat...you won't see that name on any map because it is one the old timers from Escalante use. I spent a week down in the area with Gene Griffin and Delaine Griffin one year and another time chasing indian ruins from a story that Leo Wilson told of a kiva he found. Another Wilson, Lenza and his son Dale used to fly a plane and land it down at an old air strip in Rock Creek. I used to ride my motorcycle down the road but it is washed out now. I had a chance back in 1992 to stick an arrow into the Buck of Justice in that country or one that was his pappy but I screwed it up, and have never lived it down. That same day, I saw a nice ram and a lion all came to drink at Cave Spring Where I was sitting. I have a camera there now, do you know where that is? Once again you won't because it isn't on any BLM map.

As for the Moodys I've spent plenty of time there, hiked the trail through the canyon never tried hiking East Moodys, never had a need but I do recognize the name George Canyon it was named for old George Hobbs that got lost in a snow storm and thought he was going to die and wrote his epitath on a sandstone wall in the area. I've killed a monster buck in Wolverine, Scorpion and one on King Bench, ran into LaVoy Tolbert one day down there, but I've not been in East Moody and have only seen one small ram 130 class come from that country. There may be others I don't know of.
 
6089056.jpg


Here is Mike's Zion archery ram. Currently Utah's state record archery.

4343dec19225.jpg


And here's a photo of me out Scorpion with the Moodys on the left across the river.
 
[font size=+1]Come on you guys bickering! You hi-jacked the thread and turned it into a fight. End it please...........[/font]

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook! I need a friend....
 
BJV3,
I'll chime in on score before the experts sway my guess.

He's certainly a class IIII ram so he has the age for your son to feel good about shooting him.

I'll guess him mid to high 160's. A friend took a beautiful 173 a couple years ago and it takes a helluva ram to reach those lofty numbers in Utah.

Best of luck to you and your son! Cherish the experience and don't let the inches define your hunt. Just think BIG and OLD (not in that order).

Zeke
 
You will have a great hunt, and see some good rams that is for sure.
Shooting a BC ram will be tough! Do not let these guys kid you about that.
The unit has been going since 2010, and I think 3 BC rams have been shot off of the unit, and NOT A NEW STATE RECORD YET.

No other unit is producing BC sheep though, so it is the best!

The ram Trammer posted scored just over 168, which is HUGE and a BC ram.

Just go in and have fun! My heck what an opportunity.
If you need help with general areas let me know, or hang close to Littlebighorn.

Good luck!!!
 
BJV3, you'd do yourself a favor to listen to Mr bowhunt since he's been there are he's the friend I was referring to who shot the HUGE ram in the unit. There just are NOT very many sheep like that! In almost any other unit in Utah a 160+/- ram is a whopper.

"B&C desert rams" and "Utah" are not words often used in the same sentence.

It's been a fun thread. Too bad I don't get to go with LBH because of a couple great tags of my own. (not complaining)

We all want to see you guys have a great experience.

Zeke
 
BJV3, it is hard to tell if what looks like annuali on the left horn are all true or false. The shadows on the right horn suggest that some may be false. It is important because as a nine year old (what the left horn suggests) he is a good ram. I think he will score in the low 160s.

Bowhunt, out of fairness to the ram I posted the pic of its B&C score is 168 4/8 and was reduced by exactly 4 3/8 as a result of the taxidermist not only rotting the horns off the skull (this should never be done with a book animal until after it is scored) but heating them on top of a stove in an effort to dry them out. Had the ram been bagged and thrown into a snowbank, the garage or a freezer it would have scored 172 7/8 It did not matter much in the long run because asymmetry insured that it would not be a serious threat to The Utah State Record but drying the horns did move it from 3rd place to 7th place in Utah Big Game Records. It remains the second highest grossing ram to ever be checked in by the Utah DWR.
 
Rtcutter - Checking to see if you ever received my private message. I'd like to visit with you if you you are still looking for info. I've been scouting the unit the last 4 days.
 
Our awesome desert sheep hunt is over. It was an incredible hunt to say the least. We saw many, many sheep but only a few great rams. I'm so proud of my son for holding out and passing on so many good rams for a real trophy. It took him 12 days of hunting to find the one he wanted and I spent 34 days glassing the country and helping him find is dream ram. Now he is 25% done with his grand slam. I hope I can be a part of the next 3. We met a lot of generous people that helped us in one way or another but a special thanks goes out to Rick and Spencer E, Mike H, James B, Kevin L, Jon and Ryan N, Don H, Jason N, and Ryan H. The sheep community is a great group to be a part of.

2467sheep_hunt-6.jpg

3439sheep_hunt-15.jpg

2668sheep_hunt-53.jpg

4039sheep_hunt-69.jpg
 
All the drama on this thread ruined the kid's harvest----

Sad deal for sure---

congrats young fella----

Robb
 
>All the drama on this thread
>ruined the kid's harvest----
>
>Sad deal for sure---
>
>congrats young fella----
>
>Robb

I believe all the drama was a major help to my son's harvest. I enjoyed the conversation and was able to meet several of those that posted on this thread. It all added to the thrill and enjoyment of the hunt and I thank all those for expressing their opinions. That conversation really helped educate us as we didn't hardly know how to spell Zion let alone hunt the unit efficiently when this all began. Now I truly believe I know this unit quite well after spending so many days in the field. There are only a very few canyons that we did not explore and/or hunt.
 
Congrats to your son. That is a great ram that will produce the best kind of memories for life.

Lots of good points made on this thread in addition to some silly "length measurements" going on between some of the posters. Nonetheless, thanks for posting so we could see the outcome of your adventure.

Great work on finding a great ram!
 
Congratulations again to you both.
We were thrilled that your tenacity and hard work were rewarded with such a great trophy. It was especially cool that you could share such a unique personal hunting experience as a father/son team. What an adventure!
 
You guys did very well!
That ram's a beauty and one to be proud of!
Thanks for sharing your success.
Zeke
 
I cant tell you how excited I am about the Rams being taken in The Zion unit this year! I have seen photos of most of them and they are monsters every one of them!The Boone and Crocket entries for the state of Utah could very well increase by 50% just from the quality of the Rams harvested from The Zion this year alone. It speaks well of the conservation being done there by the Biologists as well as the Hunters and makes the forecast for next years hunters that much brighter!...The Zion is hitting on all cylinders!

Grand Slam #911
 
BJV, Wonderful ending to a great hunt, with all the ups and downs of sheep hunting. Awesome ram, I am too am thrilled for both of you. I believe I know how you feel about you son's ram. I experienced my son's sheep hunt last year. Thanks for sharing your hunt.
 
Wow, I'm in trouble because they both look like shooters to me.


"I hate being bi-polar.....Its awesome"
 

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