Sig BDX illegal?

Robiland

Robiland

Very Active Member
Messages
2,075
My neighbor came to me yesterday and said that his sig BDX is now illegal, showed me in the rules that any electrical device is now illegal. He called and asked the fish and game and they confirmed that. I know it has been talked about a few times, but never saw anything about it, until yesterday. Is that true? Or am I miss understanding the "NEW RULE".
 
It use to be legal because the range finder was separate. I knew the Bushnell scope was illegal because the range finder and scope where one or all together. I didn't know about this change. I will have to look it up. Or watch this post.
 
I Was hoping They Woulda Waited Another Couple Years Before They Started PLUCKING Technology From Hunters!

Woulda Been Kinda Funny To See 100's Of Thousands Of DRATS Lay Their SMART-GUNS & SMART AMMO Down After Spending Billions On It!
 
Boy, Utah DNR is really drawing the line on technology these days. I hunt big game in a few Western states every Fall with a variety legal weapons. For some reason in the back of my mind I've always felt a bit ambivalent of the integrated BDX system. Personally, for me it's pushing the limits of technology and ethics of fair chase. I do use a separate dedicated rangefinder and rifle scope. Part of the reason I hunt is to get away from the all BS technology in the world we live in now. I guess we all need to draw our own line in the sand. Not judging others if they use the integrated system.

I think Utah DNR's most recent stand on the BDX system and anticipated 2024 ban of scopes on muzzleloader is a workable attempt to balance hunter success rates with increased hunter opportunities. I anticipate other States will follow. Old news, the great state of New Mexico banned scopes on muzzies in 2023.
 
hawky is Gonna Give A little on His Bow!

I'm Gonna Give On SmokePole Scopes!

And You'll Have To Give on Your Long Range Rifle GADGETRY!

It's Gonna Be:

ALL GAVE SOME!

Not:

SOME GAVE ALL!

And Don't tell Me The BDX System Was Your GIVE!

Lvs2hunt1 said:
Boy, Utah DNR is really drawing the line on technology these days. I hunt big game in a few Western states every Fall with a variety legal weapons. For some reason in the back of my mind I've always felt a bit ambivalent of the integrated BDX system. Personally, for me it's pushing the limits of technology and ethics of fair chase. I do use a separate dedicated rangefinder and rifle scope. Part of the reason I hunt is to get away from the all BS technology in the world we live in now. I guess we all need to draw our own line in the sand. Not judging others if they use the integrated system.

I think Utah DNR's most recent stand on the BDX system and anticipated 2024 ban of scopes on muzzleloader is a workable attempt to balance hunter success rates with increased hunter opportunities. I anticipate other States will follow. Old news, the great state of New Mexico banned scopes on muzzies in 2023.
Click to expand...
 
Elkster, I’m shopping for a scope right now to replace the BDX scope on my 300 Win Mag. Do you want to sell me that 20 X Nightforce Scope that is mounted on your muzzleloader? Cut your brother a deal since they will soon be banned anyway. ?

Hawkeye
 
Hey hawky?

Sounds Like You're Gonna Be Giving Up a Bunch!:D

I'll Tell You What!

I'll Sell You The Scope Off On My SmokePole That You Think Is a NightForce 20X for 1/2 The Price of a New One!

But Don't Be Mad When You Get It & It Doesn't Say NightForce on it!

You're Gonna Be Quite Disappointed!





Hawkeye said:
Elkster, I’m shopping for a scope right now to replace the BDX scope on my 300 Win Mag. Do you want to sell me that 20 X Nightforce Scope that is mounted on your muzzleloader? Cut your brother a deal since they will soon be banned anyway. ?

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
Talking to a few people the last few days, they dont think its talking about BDX type scopes. They think it is talking about something else. We thought it was pretty vague. So who knows. I can read it and go both ways.
 

R657-5-8. Rifles, Shotguns, Airguns, and Crossbows.​

(1) A rifle used to hunt big game must:

(a) fire centerfire cartridges and expanding bullets; and

(b) have no attachment capable of electronic function, other than illuminated reticles.
 
middlefork said:

R657-5-8. Rifles, Shotguns, Airguns, and Crossbows.​

(1) A rifle used to hunt big game must:

(a) fire centerfire cartridges and expanding bullets; and

(b) have no attachment capable of electronic function, other than illuminated reticles.
Click to expand...
I believe it illuminates the reticles, right?

I am playing devils advocate here, of course.

I have several rifles with vortex, athlon, burris and leupold. And I do have a SIG BDX. So I have plenty to choose from. So what if the battery is taken out of the BDX scope? Is it now legal or still illegal?
 
Robiland said:
I believe it illuminates the reticles, right?

I am playing devils advocate here, of course.

I have several rifles with vortex, athlon, burris and leupold. And I do have a SIG BDX. So I have plenty to choose from. So what if the battery is taken out of the BDX scope? Is it now legal or still illegal?
Click to expand...
Sounds to me like the BDX would be banned according to Item 1b above. The BDX is bluetooth capable thus it uses a hi-tech electronic pairing mechanism, right?
 
As Long As The Battery Is In Your Pocket Where They Can' See It You'll Be Good!:D

Robiland said:
I believe it illuminates the reticles, right?

I am playing devils advocate here, of course.

I have several rifles with vortex, athlon, burris and leupold. And I do have a SIG BDX. So I have plenty to choose from. So what if the battery is taken out of the BDX scope? Is it now legal or still illegal?
Click to expand...
 
Robiland said:
So what if the battery is taken out of the BDX scope? Is it now legal or still illegal?
Click to expand...
Even with the battery in your kid's pocket, the scope is still "capable of electronic function" so it would still be illegal. I know you are playing devil's advocate, but it really isn't that hard- is it?
I only am posting here for the guy who reads this thread and wants to justify something that is most likely unjustifiable with the way the Rule is written.
 
Packout said:
Even with the battery in your kid's pocket, the scope is still "capable of electronic function" so it would still be illegal. I know you are playing devil's advocate, but it really isn't that hard- is it?
I only am posting here for the guy who reads this thread and wants to justify something that is most likely unjustifiable with the way the Rule is written.
Click to expand...
Without a battery, how is it capable of an electronic function. Has no power, therefor is not capable.

So, with the scope that I do have, i cant legally use it even though it isnt capable? Really isnt that hard.... is it???

Battery is at home, not in a kids pocket, still capable in the moment on the hill side hunting?
 
Robiland said:
Without a battery, how is it capable of an electronic function. Has no power, therefor is not capable.

So, with the scope that I do have, i cant legally use it even though it isnt capable? Really isnt that hard.... is it???

Battery is at home, not in a kids pocket, still capable in the moment on the hill side hunting?
Click to expand...
I don't think that is a winning argument, it is manufactured capable. But good luck! I think I would get confirmation, I know that it is not legal in Colorado.
 
BIGJOHNT said:
I thought I remembered that on archery sites but i guess they carried it all the way to rifle scopes as well .
Click to expand...
Yep, you are correct.
Sure wish everyone not understanding that on the muzzleloader scope thread would let it sink in......
 
slamdunk said:
Yep, you are correct.
Sure wish everyone not understanding that on the muzzleloader scope thread would let it sink in......
Click to expand...
You guys already restricted electronics on muzzy scopes too, so why are you going above and beyond for muzzleloaders and pushing further restrictions?

Robiland said:
Without a battery, how is it capable of an electronic function. Has no power, therefor is not capable.

So, with the scope that I do have, i cant legally use it even though it isnt capable? Really isnt that hard.... is it???

Battery is at home, not in a kids pocket, still capable in the moment on the hill side hunting?
Click to expand...
I guarantee if you try it and get caught you won't like the outcome.
 
Last edited:
I called Idaho, Wyo, and Colo game and fish in March for clarification. Idaho said no go for Sig BDX and Swaro DS, but Wyo and Colo both told me yes BDX and Swaro DS are authorized.

Regulations seem to state one thing and Game and Fish HQs seems to say another. It’s not like there are hundreds of these type scopes, so not sure why they don’t specify make/model for clarification in writing to make it simple.

I wouldn’t want to have them on my rifle when I’m in the middle of nowhere and having a conversation with a game warden.
 
snowymtn said:
It’s not like there are hundreds of these type scopes, so not sure why they don’t specify make/model for clarification in writing to make it simple.
Click to expand...

Specifying individual makes and models is a nightmare when it comes to legislating and rule making. Every new model you have to change the rule. Much easier (and wiser) to speak generally about what you want to restrict so you aren’t left playing catch up and updating the rule year after year.
 
I would normally agree with you and I see the understanding in that, but in this specific instance, you could say, “such as models that are similar or equivalent to this make/ model and that make/model”. Keeping it somewhat generic but providing enough info to keep the hunter informed.

Because… guidelines say this “” but when I called the respective G+F they said that “”. So now I wonder who makes the final decision. It’s open to opinion and interpretation.
 
snowymtn said:
So now I wonder who makes the final decision. It’s open to opinion and interpretation.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure the officer in the field that confiscates the equipment makes the first judgement. Then the judge who decides what "capable" means.

It seems pretty clear though- if they were OK with you using one designed with electronic capability with no battery in it, they would have worded it something like: "have no attachment performing electonic function". But it says capable instead. Guessing the judge would see it that way too.
 
This isn’t that complicated. Here’s the (a) definition of “capable:”

ca·pa·ble​

/ˈkāpəb(ə)l/​

adjective
  • 1.having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing: "I'm quite capable of taking care of myself"
If an electronic device has no battery in it, is it capable of electronic function? No. And that is what the rule seeks to prohibit. A BDX scope without electronic function is just a plain old scope. Isn’t it?

The real question is, is the hunter gaming the system by keeping a battery in their pocket and installing it to take a shot? There would have to be evidence of that to convict someone of violation the rule.
 
If you think about this in terms of a DUI - a person is intoxicated and in control of a motor vehicle.

If that intoxicated person gets into a vehicle that has no engine, no fuel and is up on blocks, are they likely to be convicted on a DUI? What’s the intent of the law?
 
This is the Colorado Definition
NOTE: SMART RIFLES are prohibited, including any firearm equipped with a target tracking system, electronically controlled, assisted or computer linked trigger or a ballistics computer. Any firearm equipped with a scope containing a computer processor is considered to be a smart rifle.
 
diablo said:
This isn’t that complicated. Here’s the (a) definition of “capable:”

ca·pa·ble​

/ˈkāpəb(ə)l/​

adjective
  • 1.having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing: "I'm quite capable of taking care of myself"
If an electronic device has no battery in it, is it capable of electronic function? No. And that is what the rule seeks to prohibit. A BDX scope without electronic function is just a plain old scope. Isn’t it?

The real question is, is the hunter gaming the system by keeping a battery in their pocket and installing it to take a shot? There would have to be evidence of that to convict someone of violation the rule.
Click to expand...
It's still capable, of the function you just have to add a battery.

This happened to me just two weeks ago, my dad has a crossbow permit and COR from the state of Utah, this is his first year. We got him a crossbow and it came with a 1-5 power scope. We didn't know the rule that it couldn't have a magnifying scope on it until someone else pointed it out to us. So we started looking for a legal aiming system for it.

I was having a hard time finding a 1x scope that did what we wanted it to do, ideally it would have a cross hair, and then multiple aiming points below so that we could extend the range beyond the sited in cross hair.

Everything I found like that was all 1-5 power or similar like what he has already.

So I was thinking what if we disabled the zoom function and had it locked onto 1x somehow, like gluing the ring on 1 power so it couldn't move up.


I figured I better check if that was legal first so I messaged a game warden I know and mafe sure he understood what I was wanting to do. He said he would have to check on that, and he would get back to me.


When he got back to me he said.
"
-----"You won’t be able to use a variable powered scope even if the dial is disabled somehow. I know your intentions are good but it specifically states that for archery it has to be a fixed non-magnification sight.

Have you looked at 1x fixed red dot sights? As long as it doesn’t project a beam of light onto the target they would be ok to use.

I’m sure that’s not what you’re hoping to hear but that’s the best I can come up with."----

So..... tell me, how is removing the battery from a bdx a better option then a completely disabled zoom ring on a crossbow scope?

You might get lucky and get an officer that will let you get away with it, but I think chances are good you will be ticketed for it.
 
JakeH said:
It's still capable, of the function you just have to add a battery.

This happened to me just two weeks ago, my dad has a crossbow permit and COR from the state of Utah, this is his first year. We got him a crossbow and it came with a 1-5 power scope. We didn't know the rule that it couldn't have a magnifying scope on it until someone else pointed it out to us. So we started looking for a legal aiming system for it.

I was having a hard time finding a 1x scope that did what we wanted it to do, ideally it would have a cross hair, and then multiple aiming points below so that we could extend the range beyond the sited in cross hair.

Everything I found like that was all 1-5 power or similar like what he has already.

So I was thinking what if we disabled the zoom function and had it locked onto 1x somehow, like gluing the ring on 1 power so it couldn't move up.


I figured I better check if that was legal first so I messaged a game warden I know and mafe sure he understood what I was wanting to do. He said he would have to check on that, and he would get back to me.


When he got back to me he said.
"
-----"You won’t be able to use a variable powered scope even if the dial is disabled somehow. I know your intentions are good but it specifically states that for archery it has to be a fixed non-magnification sight.

Have you looked at 1x fixed red dot sights? As long as it doesn’t project a beam of light onto the target they would be ok to use.

I’m sure that’s not what you’re hoping to hear but that’s the best I can come up with."----

So..... tell me, how is removing the battery from a bdx a better option then a completely disabled zoom ring on a crossbow scope?

You might get lucky and get an officer that will let you get away with it, but I think chances are good you will be ticketed for it.
Click to expand...
I’d send that question up to the chief. If that is the official position of the LE section, then so be it. Ask 10 COs and you’d no doubt get both answers. If it isn’t capable of being dialed up in magnification then it is fixed.
 
diablo said:
I’d send that question up to the chief. If that is the official position of the LE section, then so be it. Ask 10 COs and you’d no doubt get both answers. If it isn’t capable of being dialed up in magnification then it is fixed.
Click to expand...
He didn't get right back to me, I'm pretty sure he took it up the chain of command and that is what they told him.

I agree with you, but I also see where they are coming from too.

I was finally able to find a red dot scope that fit what we needed. Has 3 separate dots for aiming so we can site in the top and see where the other two are good for at longer range. Initial site in it looks like with a 40 yard "0" his other two are dead on at 60, and 80 yards. But I we need to do some more shooting to confirm this.
 
Is a BDX an electronic? From the Field Regs booklet--
"Weapons technology rules: Several regulation changes to Utah’s allowable weapons technologies were approved by the Utah Wildlife Board in May of this year, including prohibiting attached electronics (except for illuminated reticules). "


diablo said:
If you think about this in terms of a DUI - a person is intoxicated and in control of a motor vehicle.

If that intoxicated person gets into a vehicle that has no engine, no fuel and is up on blocks, are they likely to be convicted on a DUI? What’s the intent of the law?
Click to expand...
Interesting analogy- I mean, if the scope is out of the rings, the lenses removed and the electronic components are missing then you would probably be ok.

Now that same intoxicated person, behind the wheel of a car on the side of the road with the engine turned off and a dead battery? hmmm..... (but then I have never been in this situation so maybe he'd be ok too? I don't think I want to find out.)

The Rule was written with input from the UDWR law enforcement section and the Attorney General's office. Of course they are not infallible, yet I wouldn't want to be the one to test the the Rule.
I think I have said enough. Good luck on you hunts.
 
diablo said:
If you think about this in terms of a DUI - a person is intoxicated and in control of a motor vehicle.

If that intoxicated person gets into a vehicle that has no engine, no fuel and is up on blocks, are they likely to be convicted on a DUI? What’s the intent of the law?
Click to expand...

More appropriate to your analogy utilizing DUI would not be a vehicle without an engine that is up on blocks, but a vehicle that is not running but the person in the driver's seat and has keys in his pocket.

And yes, that would still be a DUI in the state of Utah.
 
Vanilla said:
More appropriate to your analogy utilizing DUI would not be a vehicle without an engine that is up on blocks, but a vehicle that is not running but the person in the driver's seat and has keys in his pocket.

And yes, that would still be a DUI in the state of Utah.
Click to expand...
Alright. I don’t agree with yours being a better analogy.

But let’s say the scope has the battery compartment filled with epoxy so no battery can possibly be inserted (no electronic function). Still think that violates the reg?
 
diablo said:
Alright. I don’t agree with yours being a better analogy.

But let’s say the scope has the battery compartment filled with epoxy so no battery can possibly be inserted (no electronic function). Still think that violates the reg?
Click to expand...

I said it was a better analogy because a car without an engine that is up on blocks is not a vehicle. It's a paper weight. So your analogy kind of sucked, actually, but I was trying to be nice.

I think putting epoxy in the batter compartment is getting closer to a car without an engine analogy, but still maybe not quite there. You'd probably have to take the glass out of the casing to get to your analogy, but it's a little closer. Seems crazy to me for someone to buy one of those scopes and then put epoxy in the battery compartment. Be my guest, though. Let us know how that goes!
 
Vanilla said:
I said it was a better analogy because a car without an engine that is up on blocks is not a vehicle. It's a paper weight. So your analogy kind of sucked, actually, but I was trying to be nice.
Click to expand...
Lol. That was my point. An electronic scope without a battery is not an electronic scope. It’s a “paperweight” (regular scope).
 
Nah, it’s a fully functional car that is not running, but the driver can change that at any second. Hence, the entire purpose of the actual physical control provisions of the DUI law.

And why I think you’d similarly get prosecuted for the scope violation, just as you would the DUI.

But what do I know?
 
diablo said:
Lol. That was my point. An electronic scope without a battery is not an electronic scope. It’s a “paperweight” (regular scope).
Click to expand...
Better analogy- if guns are illegal in the courthouse- is it really a gun if it isn't loaded?

Love to see someone try it, gotta admit...
 
Vanilla said:
Nah, it’s a fully functional car that is not running, but the driver can change that at any second. Hence, the entire purpose of the actual physical control provisions of the DUI law.

And why I think you’d similarly get prosecuted for the scope violation, just as you would the DUI.

But what do I know?
Click to expand...
Yeah but this isn’t a fully functional electronic scope. So, the car without an engine analogy seems appropriate.


Better analogy- if guns are illegal in the courthouse- is it really a gun if it isn't loaded?

Let’s change that to firearm without a firing pin.
 
Is putting an engine back in the car and taking it off blocks akin to putting a battery back in a scope?

No, not at all. Not even close. Don't suck at this anymore. We're trying to help you out here. I feel like Jerry Maguire right now....HELP ME HELP YOU!

The definition was crafted to prevent exactly what you are talking about. Good luck in your endeavors.
 
diablo said:
Yeah but this isn’t a fully functional electronic scope. So, the car without an engine analogy seems appropriate.


Better analogy- if guns are illegal in the courthouse- is it really a gun if it isn't loaded? Let’s change that to firearm without a firing pin.
Click to expand...
Ok- I said I was done, but..... it is still an ELECTRONIC scope. You even said it yourself. This is good entertainment.

And for the reason why I replied- I would really enjoy the footage of someone going to the courthouse with a revolver that has the firing pin removed, trying to go thru security with it, AND have the person explain to the guards that it really isn't a gun because it has no firing pin. hahahaha
 
Vanilla said:
Is putting an engine back in the car and taking it off blocks akin to putting a battery back in a scope?
Click to expand...
Yes.

Brother, I don’t have a dog in this. Just making a logical argument. I don’t hunt with a BDX. Never will.

But, I’d take this argument into any court in Utah. There isn’t one that wouldn’t throw the ticket out in 5 min. A BDX not “capable of electronic function” isn’t a prohibited scope.

Here’s the rule:

R657-5-8. Rifles, Shotguns, Airguns, and Crossbows.​

(1) A rifle used to hunt big game must:
(a) fire centerfire cartridges and expanding bullets; and
(b) have no attachment capable of electronic function, other than illuminated reticles.

This wouldn’t be a violation of the letter of the law or the spirit.
 

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