SOUTHERN RAC MEETING

[Downrange]

anybody attend the southern rac meeting and give some input on what was said about permit numbers especially on the pine valley unit

 

[elkhunterUT]

anybody attend the southern rac meeting and give some input on what was said about permit numbers especially on the pine valley unit

Didn't attend in person but I watched the majority of the Southern RAC meeting. They voted to accept the General season deer tags as recommended by the DWR, but with NO (zero) tag increases on the Beaver, Fillmore, Mt. Dutton, Southwest Desert, and Zion units.

One RAC member tried to get both the Pine Valley and Monroe units added to that motion for no tag increases, but those amendments failed.

The Southern RAC meeting was pretty entertaining overall - Garth Carter insulted the RAC Chair, Doyle Moss made an appearance with a tirade against banning two way radios/cell phone use for take of big game (shocking coming from an outfit that relies on that tech to kill BIG animals), and a couple ranchers from Beaver want every elk on the landscape killed, but can't seem to share an intelligible thought to support their stance. Good times at the Southern RAC

 

[elkantlers]

Didn't attend in person but I watched the majority of the Southern RAC meeting. They voted to accept the General season deer tags as recommended by the DWR, but with NO (zero) tag increases on the Beaver, Fillmore, Mt. Dutton, Southwest Desert, and Zion units.

One RAC member tried to get both the Pine Valley and Monroe units added to that motion for no tag increases, but those amendments failed.

The Southern RAC meeting was pretty entertaining overall - Garth Carter insulted the RAC Chair, Doyle Moss made an appearance with a tirade against banning two way radios/cell phone use for take of big game (shocking coming from an outfit that relies on that tech to kill BIG animals), and a couple ranchers from Beaver want every elk on the landscape killed, but can't seem to share an intelligible thought to support their stance. Good times at the Southern RAC

I always sit up and pay attention when the old rancher starts talking. It's very entertaining. Especially when the story starts with "back in nineteen and eight."

 

[elkhunterUT]

I always sit up and pay attention when the old rancher starts talking. It's very entertaining. Especially when the story starts with "back in nineteen and eight."

ha ha - so true! I was laughing out loud whenever they took the microphone VERY entertaining

 

[Shadow]

ha ha - so true! I was laughing out loud whenever they took the microphone VERY entertaining

Sad part is, them old boys are probably by far the smartest guys in the room when it boils down to common sense but their methods of presentation is nothing short of comical.

 

[bucks]

Would you rather have Elk running around ,Or an animal that can't even produce a solid ****!!!

 

[tallelkchaser]

Didn't attend in person but I watched the majority of the Southern RAC meeting. They voted to accept the General season deer tags as recommended by the DWR, but with NO (zero) tag increases on the Beaver, Fillmore, Mt. Dutton, Southwest Desert, and Zion units.

One RAC member tried to get both the Pine Valley and Monroe units added to that motion for no tag increases, but those amendments failed.

The Southern RAC meeting was pretty entertaining overall - Garth Carter insulted the RAC Chair, Doyle Moss made an appearance with a tirade against banning two way radios/cell phone use for take of big game (shocking coming from an outfit that relies on that tech to kill BIG animals), and a couple ranchers from Beaver want every elk on the landscape killed, but can't seem to share an intelligible thought to support their stance. Good times at the Southern RAC

I wonder how many mossback clients are in the Boone and Crockett books when they probably shouldn’t be given the fair chase standards?

 

[elkassassin]

Yes!

Sad part is, them old boys are probably by far the smartest guys in the room when it boils down to common sense but their methods of presentation is nothing short of comical.

 

[quest]

I wish I could have been there…most everything I wonder about the Pine Valley unit was correct. I’m glad they didn’t raise the tags to much. Some of the talk about high tech was a little concerning might bite them in the butt with new recruits coming into hunting. I wish they would post hunter success for each unit that could be a plus or minus depending on how you look at it.

 

[elkhunterUT]

I wonder how many mossback clients are in the Boone and Crockett books when they probably shouldn’t be given the fair chase standards?

I am sure there are more than a few-anything to kill that buck for the record books and the Gram ??‍

 

[smokepolejohnson]

Thought Garth Carter was going to whoop the Southern Chair Brayden’s a$$ for a hot minute. His 4 point suggestion on the pine valley needs to happen, would be a game changer.

 

[southernutahhunter]

Put antler restrictions on all southern units.

 

[elkassassin]

That's LadyShooters Husband!

Thought Garth Carter was going to whoop the Southern Chair Brayden’s a$$ for a hot minute. His 4 point suggestion on the pine valley needs to happen, would be a game changer.

 

[hossblur]

No bait. No cams. No radios. Holy hell, how ever will Doyle survive?

 

[hossblur]

I wonder how many mossback clients are in the Boone and Crockett books when they probably shouldn’t be given the fair chase standards?

Spiderbull

 

[Bigwiffy]

Didn't attend in person but I watched the majority of the Southern RAC meeting. They voted to accept the General season deer tags as recommended by the DWR, but with NO (zero) tag increases on the Beaver, Fillmore, Mt. Dutton, Southwest Desert, and Zion units.

One RAC member tried to get both the Pine Valley and Monroe units added to that motion for no tag increases, but those amendments failed.

The Southern RAC meeting was pretty entertaining overall - Garth Carter insulted the RAC Chair, Doyle Moss made an appearance with a tirade against banning two way radios/cell phone use for take of big game (shocking coming from an outfit that relies on that tech to kill BIG animals), and a couple ranchers from Beaver want every elk on the landscape killed, but can't seem to share an intelligible thought to support their stance. Good times at the Southern RAC

So on those units mentioned above did they go back to last year's tag numbers? Thanks for the info!

 

[elkhunterUT]

So on those units mentioned above did they go back to last year's tag numbers? Thanks for the info!

Yes that is how I understood it-no increase from last years tag #’s.

 

[Downrange]

Hope the wildlife board does the same

 

[southernutahhunter]

It was a unanimous vote so you would think they would follow

 

[deadibob]

Thought Garth Carter was going to whoop the Southern Chair Brayden’s a$$ for a hot minute. His 4 point suggestion on the pine valley needs to happen, would be a game changer.

Four point or better would be great on Pine Valley and the rest of the state needs to be at least three point or better. Every Utah biologist or game warden I've ever talked to has said it doesn't work and too many deer get shot and left because they weren't big enough.

Can somebody tell me why point restrictions don't work for deer but they do for elk? Some of those spike bulls getting shot aren't all spikes.

 

[Weiserbucks]

Can somebody tell me why point restrictions don't work for deer but they do for elk?

Elk get shot and left to waste too. On paper the point restrictions look promising but once you turn loose an army of Fudds that are desperate to kill anything then the shine wears off pretty quickly.

 

[JakeH]

Four point or better would be great on Pine Valley and the rest of the state needs to be at least three point or better. Every Utah biologist or game warden I've ever talked to has said it doesn't work and too many deer get shot and left because they weren't big enough.

Can somebody tell me why point restrictions don't work for deer but they do for elk? Some of those spike bulls getting shot aren't all spikes.

I personally feel the problems with the point restriction in the past (deer getting shot and left) had more to do with the fact that most people did not carry optics with them, but now everyone has a pair of binoculars on their chest or in their vehicle.

I think you still might have some issues with it for the first couple years, but as people got more used to what it takes to properly identify a buck it would get better.

Also feel that the youth and senior's over 65 should still be allowed to shoot what they want. If they implemented a 3 point or better standard, I feel it could help.

But there is also the fact that it puts more pressure on the older/bigger bucks so in a way it can we a double-edged sword as inevitably more of those bucks will be killed.

 

[elkassassin]

I Seen Point Restrictions First Hand in the Book Cliffs!

A Bunch of DRATS Shoulda Had Their Asses Kicked With Big Fines!

After They Shot Their PISSCUTTERS They'd Walk up To Them & See it was only a 2 Point & Waste Them!

But Kept Right On a Hunting!

If The HELL-RIGHT Fines & Consequences Woulda Been in effect & Enforced A Few JACK-ASSES Mighta Thought Twice about it!

 

[hunt30]

https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/mule_deer/mdwg-6_point_restrictions.pdf

 

[southernutahhunter]

I am with you better optics, stiff fines with 4 point or better, might help. It sure would not hurt to try it on a couple units. We have all these units, let’s try some different ideas.

 

[Downrange]

I personally feel the problems with the point restriction in the past (deer getting shot and left) had more to do with the fact that most people did not carry optics with them, but now everyone has a pair of binoculars on their chest or in their vehicle.

I think you still might have some issues with it for the first couple years, but as people got more used to what it takes to properly identify a buck it would get better.

Also feel that the youth and senior's over 65 should still be allowed to shoot what they want. If they implemented a 3 point or better standard, I feel it could help.

But there is also the fact that it puts more pressure on the older/bigger bucks so in a way it can we a double-edged sword as inevitably more of those bucks will be killed.

I agree with you and I think binoculars have gotten a lot better the last 10 years. Even the cheaper models are pretty damn clear anymore. I don’t think there would be near the mistakes has in the past. I love the idea of 4pt or better for anyone over the age of 18 however a youth should be able to shoot what ever buck they want to.

 

[elkassassin]

That Better Glass Of Today Makes PISSCUTTERS Even Look Bigger!

 

[elkantlers]

My bet is Garth Carter is a lifetime license holder and would like to have his favorite unit be a "Premium" general unit so he's hunting big ole' 4 points every year while the peasants are getting to hunt forky's on the other units.
Don't you think some of these guys that are opposing the permit increases, and wanting 4 point or better, on these units have Allterior motives?

 

[Packout]

I know that many who ask for permit cuts or special regs for GS deer have lifetime licenses. I've had discussions with some about special regs and then ask if they have LLs and far too often the answer is "Yes". Then it is always, "but that isn't why I want these restrictions".

As for the point restrictions- I had a moose tag in WY less than 10 years ago, fairly sure it was the year they started point restrictions in K, and we found multiple dead bucks that were illegal to shoot. It was a mess.

 

[hunt30]

The problem on pine valley is mainly fawn recruitment, with drought being the primary factor. Antler Point restrictions will do nothing to help the deer herd recover. After a few years of reasonable moisture, if you want to kill a mature buck on the pine valley, just become a better hunter. Antler Point restrictions are the lazy man’s idea.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

People better quit asking to make Pine Valley different than the other general season units or it will no longer be a general season unit. Careful, you could get what you wish for.

 

[elkantlers]

The guy at the Southern RAC got an amendment passed for the WB to look at only having a single draw for deer. No more general season, Dedicated and LE. So how would they deal with Lifetime license holders? They can't go to one draw and let the LLH take all the Premium permits off the top.
I would hope they do something along the lines of allowing them to put in for hunts the same as everyone else and if they have enough points to draw then they get the tag for free. Or, disqualifying them for certain hunt areas like the Henries and Puans and only allow them to get a LL on the Manti, Wasatch and a few other bigger units.

 

[Weiserbucks]

All you guys commenting about quality modern optics to ID antler points are missing one simple issue:

When Fudds see horns they use a gun, not binoculars.

 

[rmanwill]

People better quit asking to make Pine Valley different than the other general season units or it will no longer be a general season unit. Careful, you could get what you wish for.

YEP. Careful what you wish for.

Pine Valley Camanche and Browse which are all part of the current Pine Valley unit was all limited units years ago and were great units. One year they just canceled them and made them part of the general unit. Buddies grew up in Cedar City and would hunt Pine Valley every year on the archery that was under subscribed and see some great bucks.

Changes - from over the counter state wide tags to 5 units to the current numerous units with limited sprinkled in. Hunter demand has out grown the resources. Everyone hates change, but it is inevitable.

 

[gundog2]

The guy at the Southern RAC got an amendment passed for the WB to look at only having a single draw for deer. No more general season, Dedicated and LE. So how would they deal with Lifetime license holders? They can't go to one draw and let the LLH take all the Premium permits off the top.
I would hope they do something along the lines of allowing them to put in for hunts the same as everyone else and if they have enough points to draw then they get the tag for free. Or, disqualifying them for certain hunt areas like the Henries and Puans and only allow them to get a LL on the Manti, Wasatch and a few other bigger units.

They just need to say that you can only apply for one deer hunt and only one elk hunt. Keep all other rules the same. Keep preference points and bonus points separate, just as they are now. Dedicated hunters can still choose pick their GS deer hunt or decide to apply for LE hunt, but not both. Give the dedicated hunters a free permit if they do draw a LE deer permit. It really is not that complicated.

 

[Deerlove]

All you guys commenting about quality modern optics to ID antler points are missing one simple issue:

When Fudds see horns they use a gun, not binoculars.

And people underestimate how many fudds are in Utah

 

[elkantlers]

They just need to say that you can only apply for one deer hunt and only one elk hunt. Keep all other rules the same. Keep preference points and bonus points separate, just as they are now. Dedicated hunters can still choose pick their GS deer hunt or decide to apply for LE hunt, but not both. Give the dedicated hunters a free permit if they do draw a LE deer permit. It really is not that complicated.

what about Lifetime license holders. What tags do they get every single year?

 

[gundog2]

what about Lifetime license holders. What tags do they get every single year?

The would be able to choose free GS permit same as they are now OR apply to LE hunt for free. They would get free LE permits and bonus points, but they would have to choose one GS permit or one LE application every year.

 

[Shadow]

what about Lifetime license holders. What tags do they get every single year?

How many LL holders are left? Is the number really significant enough to matter, if they got their tags in addition to unit quotas?

 

[elkantlers]

How many LL holders are left? Is the number really significant enough to matter, if they got their tags in addition to unit quotas?

It sure does. especially since you're 4th in life for deer tags.
Seems like I remember there are like 4000 LL holders left. But I'm not positive. That could have significant implications if they go to a single deer draw.

GENERAL-SEASON DEER HUNTS​

1. The drawing process allows lifetime license holders to pick their unit first.
2. Then, it figures out the percentage of Dedicated Hunters that will be allowed to enter the program.
3. Then, it begins the drawing with up to 20% allotment for youth who are 17 years old or younger on July 31.
4. The rest of the permits are issued to applicants that have the most preference points.

 

[Weiserbucks]

And people underestimate how many fudds are in Utah

It's the same story everywhere you go, handful of hunters that take it seriously and the rest are questionable at best. All this talk of changing things for the better won't matter as long as most of the tags are issued to Fudds, and they will be, because Fudd lives matter.

 

[rmanwill]

They just need to say that you can only apply for one deer hunt and only one elk hunt. Keep all other rules the same. Keep preference points and bonus points separate, just as they are now. Dedicated hunters can still choose pick their GS deer hunt or decide to apply for LE hunt, but not both. Give the dedicated hunters a free permit if they do draw a LE deer permit. It really is not that complicated.

I can see this really increasing the limited elk point creep. Yes this would really benifit those desiring to hunt limited deer units.

I'm not going to give up deer hunting in Utah for 10-25+ years to go limited deer hunting in Utah. Most won't and a large number of the average weekend general deer hunters don't put in for (limited deer, dedicated deer and elk or limited elk).

I can see those wanting to put in for limited tags to choose limited elk and go general deer, which would really increase the draw odds on limited elk.

Heck, I've taken my best deer on general units, not limited units in Utah. I want to hunt deer not sit home a build points to hunt deer once or twice in a lifetime.

As for dedicated hunters. It was set up to give them a general deer tag every year. Not a limited tag or to make them now choose to give that deer permit up to be able to now sit around and build points to hunt deer in a limited unit every 10-25+ years.

Sorry, just my opinion of this situation. Maybe in high, but this seem like the way it would go. Win for limited deer unit hunters and a loose for everyone else as mentioned above.

A high percentage of us here are deer hunters first. Other species are second. I'll chose to hunt more often in general units and still tag good deer regularly and then I will do my limited deer point building in other states as I already do and hunted special units in them states when I draw.

 

[elkassassin]

I Thought When They Decided To Break The State Up In To Smaller Units It Was So The Units Could & Would Be Managed Better?

How'd That Play Out?

 

[2lumpy]

I Thought When They Decided To Break The State Up In To Smaller Units It Was So The Units Could & Would Be Managed Better?

How'd That Play Out?

Has not changed a thing. Not a single thing. I never should have done it. I hate it that I pushed them on the buck doe ratios in the 1980s. I hate it that we forced them to put the Monroe, Fish Lake, Parker, and the Pahvant/Fillmore to use antlerpoint restrictions. All that was accomplished was pissing the Division off for 40 years.

Personally……. I wish I had minded my own business, on all these changes, and allowed the Division to continue to sell either sex tags, over the counter, for as many hunters that wanted a tag. Not one single thing that I’ve seen sportsmen do, when it comes to mule deer management has amount to a single positive out come, for the mule deer or the hunter.

Bottomline, we have less mule deer, less mule deer hunting opportunity, and we have caused a deep seated belief that we need to shoot them now, because they won’t be here forever.

 

[Delta]

But expo tags will still be given out.

 

[slamdunk]

I wonder how many mossback clients are in the Boone and Crockett books when they probably shouldn’t be given the fair chase standards?

Far more than you could ever realize.......I promise.

 

[elkassassin]

And Many Other Guides & Outfitters!

Far more than you could ever realize.......I promise.

 

[deadibob]

The would be able to choose free GS permit same as they are now OR apply to LE hunt for free. They would get free LE permits and bonus points, but they would have to choose one GS permit or one LE application every year.

Free permits? B.S., every one of those tags were paid for in advance.

 

[slamdunk]

And Many Other Guides & Outfitters!

I've put somewhere around a hundred animals on the ground in my guiding career and I guarantee you half of those were because of a Motorola.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey PUNK!

You Shouldn't Have Said Anything About SmokePole Scopes!

They're After Your Motorola's Now!

I've put somewhere around a hundred animals on the ground in my guiding career and I guarantee you half of those were because of a Motorola.

 

[slamdunk]

Hey PUNK!

You Shouldn't Have Said Anything About SmokePole Scopes!

They're After Your Motorola's Now!

I already knew this, it's part of the technology committee ?

 

[BIG]

Its funny how we can have a spike elk hunt and it seems to work okay. I am sure a few bulls with extra points get killed every year but for the most part hunters can manage. But when we talk about 4 point antler restrictions for deer and everybody acts like every deer will get ground checked and left if not a four point. I get that a few two points got left on the Book cliffs years ago. I have also heard that DLL drops sacks of flour on elk.

I like the antler point restrictions,

 

[elkantlers]

Its funny how we can have a spike elk hunt and it seems to work okay. I am sure a few bulls with extra points get killed every year but for the most part hunters can manage. But when we talk about 4 point antler restrictions for deer and everybody acts like every deer will get ground checked and left if not a four point. I get that a few two points got left on the Book cliffs years ago. I have also heard that DLL drops sacks of flour on elk.

I like the antler point restrictions,

Not everyone hunts for large antlers.

 

[coyoteslayer]

This would never fly, but it should. No killing of yearling bucks. Hunters should be able to tell the difference between a yearling and an older buck. The one problem with 3 or 4 point or better is you get these huge 2 and 3 points that need to be shot, but live and they pass on those genes. In Texas they have areas where the deer has to have a 13" spread to be legal to shoot, that would be harder than telling a yearling apart from an older buck. Lets say 20 yearling bucks get shot accidentally on a unit, but 200 that would have been shot live. I think that is a win.

 

[Deerlove]

That's why you only do it for a year or two

 

[quest]

I can’t see how a deer herd is healthy if you’ve got 90% of bucks harvested are small bucks forkys.

 

[quest]

They need to post what was harvest’s how many forkys 3 points 4 points and so on. Let’s see what happens to those units that most of the harvest is made up of 2/3 points probability the demand goes down for those units ?

 

[MrShane]

The DWR does not even trust us enough to allow Kokes to be filleted at Strawberry for fear of Salmon being confused as Rainbows or those lame cutts, and you want to be trusted to identify how many legal points a buck is sporting before the trigger is pulled?
That is crazy talk!

 

[quest]

Harvest reports works

 

[middlefork]

Harvest reports works

You will have your wish next year it looks like.
I'm sure it will fix everything.

 

[smokepolejohnson]

In Dax we trust

 

[elkassassin]

Harvest Reports!

How Many Decades Did That Take?

 

[gundog2]

Free permits? B.S., every one of those tags were paid for in advance.

Call it what you want. I basically acknowledge the lifetime license holders should not have to pay for deer permit so I don’t see why you need to call BS? Wow.

 

[elkassassin]

Use Ta Once In A Great Blue Moon See DAX In The Field!

They're Turning Him In To An Office Boy!

In Dax we trust

 

[DeermanMuleys]

Its funny how we can have a spike elk hunt and it seems to work okay. I am sure a few bulls with extra points get killed every year but for the most part hunters can manage. But when we talk about 4 point antler restrictions for deer and everybody acts like every deer will get ground checked and left if not a four point. I get that a few two points got left on the Book cliffs years ago. I have also heard that DLL drops sacks of flour on elk.

I like the antler point restrictions,

The cool thing is that you can implement whatever kind of point restriction you want on yourself when you have a tag! If I’m hunting, I can implement my own personal “4 point or better.” When I’m doing that, I love it that a bunch of other hunters will shoot a yearling and go home and leave 4 points alone. They win and I win. Freedom is cool like that.

When I try to make others hunt the way I want to hunt so it might be easier (debatable) for me to get the kind of bucks I’m looking for, it’s a lose-lose. I end up creating more competition for myself, I put 100% of the hunting pressure on the biggest bucks, and I force many others hunt in a way they don’t want to.

If you want to have an easier hunt for big bucks - put in for LE units, buy CWMU/LOA/Conservation tags or work really, really hard. But to force everyone else to hunt the way you want to, just doesn’t feel like a great solution to me.

 

[JakeH]

The cool thing is that you can implement whatever kind of point restriction you want on yourself when you have a tag! If I’m hunting, I can implement my own personal “4 point or better.” When I’m doing that, I love it that a bunch of other hunters will shoot a yearling and go home and leave 4 points alone. They win and I win. Freedom is cool like that.

When I try to make others hunt the way I want to hunt so it might be easier (debatable) for me to get the kind of bucks I’m looking for, it’s a lose-lose. I end up creating more competition for myself, I put 100% of the hunting pressure on the biggest bucks, and I force many others hunt in a way they don’t want to.

If you want to have an easier hunt for big bucks - put in for LE units, buy CWMU/LOA/Conservation tags or work really, really hard. But to force everyone else to hunt the way you want to, just doesn’t feel like a great solution to me.

This is a very valid point, if you force more people to focus on bigger bucks you run the risk of more bigger bucks getting killed.

 

[elkassassin]

Most guys That Pull a Book Cliffs Buck Tag:

200" Or Bust!

Day 2:

180" Or Bust!

Day 3:

PISSCUTTERS Start Hitting The Dirt!

 

[quest]

You will have your wish next year it looks like.
I'm sure it will fix everything.

How’s that going to fix everything?

 

[BIG]

Not everyone hunts for large antlers.

Most people would rather shoot a four point than a two point

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Agree that making things 4 point or better is a bad idea if you are after mature bucks. Shoot a dink and go home. People that want a bigger buck can keep hunting.

 

[notdonhunting]

If having point restrictions would be such a great success for healthy deer herds then why wouldn't you see every deer unit in all western states implement such policies. I believe most western states have tried it and all but maybe Wyoming, (from my understanding one unit) has did away with such regulations.
I don't understand why all these deer biologist recommend against point restrictions.
Is it because game biologists do not want healthier deer herds?
Is it because Division of Wildlife Resources belive if they have more 4 point bucks running around up in the mountains they will not sell as many tags?
Is it because it is more costly to the DWR to have more mature bucks?
Really someone explain why all of us armchair biologists are smarter than all the paid biologists throughout the western United States.
It is ironic that hunters like to back up their great idea of 4 point or better restrictions by pointing to the point restriction on elk and how great that has worked. (don't tell anyone but that point restriction on elk is SPIKE ONLY)?
Can someone explain.

 

[2lumpy]

Agree that making things 4 point or better is a bad idea if you are after mature bucks. Shoot a dink and go home. People that want a bigger buck can keep hunting.

That’s actual kind of funny……

Too many 4 points will get shot……. “both of them.”

 

[elkassassin]

All 2 of them!

That’s actual kind of funny……

Too many 4 points will get shot……. “both of them.”

 

[middlefork]

How’s that going to fix everything?

You are the one that stated "Harvest reports works"

I just assumed that you thought it would provide some magic knowledge that would cure everybody's complaints.

Please explain what you actually meant.

Sorry. Carry on!

 

[quest]

You are the one that stated "Harvest reports works"

I just assumed that you thought it would provide some magic knowledge that would cure everybody's complaints.

Please explain what you actually meant.

Sorry. Carry on!

Oh no….but it would give us more information of how a certain unit over health is.

 

[BIG]

If having point restrictions would be such a great success for healthy deer herds then why wouldn't you see every deer unit in all western states implement such policies. I believe most western states have tried it and all but maybe Wyoming, (from my understanding one unit) has did away with such regulations.
I don't understand why all these deer biologist recommend against point restrictions.
Is it because game biologists do not want healthier deer herds?
Is it because Division of Wildlife Resources belive if they have more 4 point bucks running around up in the mountains they will not sell as many tags?
Is it because it is more costly to the DWR to have more mature bucks?
Really someone explain why all of us armchair biologists are smarter than all the paid biologists throughout the western United States.
It is ironic that hunters like to back up their great idea of 4 point or better restrictions by pointing to the point restriction on elk and how great that has worked. (don't tell anyone but that point restriction on elk is SPIKE ONLY)?
Can someone explain.

Have you ever hunted elk in Colorado?

 

[deadibob]

Call it what you want. I basically acknowledge the lifetime license holders should not have to pay for deer permit so I don’t see why you need to call BS? Wow.

You are missing the point here when you say lifetime license holders get FREE permits or that they don't have to pay for a permit. They have already prepaid for each and every general unit deer tag, fishing license or small game license they receive. There were no free tags they were paid for in advance, $500 cash on the barrelhead upfront.

There were a lot of people at the time that thought it was ridiculous to pay $500 upfront because you could buy a tag over the counter for $25 then. Most people didn't look to the future and see how hard it could eventually be to draw a tag. Looking back now how many people wouldn't have taken that deal?
Paying a large sum upfront was a risk. Sure if you lived twenty plus years and got a tag every year that $500 could seem like a bargain but not everyone has been so lucky. There are guys that died the first year and never were able to see the benefits from their purchase and there was no refund. What about the guys that died five or ten years later, they didn't get a prorated refund on their purchase and for those guys it was no bargain.

When the lifetime license issue is brought up there is a lot of negativity and resentment from those who don't have one. Some have mentioned cancelling them or putting them on the worst unit that has no deer. Others say they are getting screwed over because they can't draw a tag and we are taking tags from them, well like my Grandma used to say "too f'n bad for you butthurt bittches ". I didn't buy bitcoin when it first came out but I don't begrudge those who did and became wealthy.

PACKOUT said every LL holder he has talked to wants tag restrictions so that it will benefit them. I don't know who he is talking to but it sure wasn't me. I would like to see everyone have lots of opportunity to hunt. I have five kids and it's hard for them to draw tags so when they don't draw I give up my tag for them through the mentor program.

Everyone agrees there is a supply and demand problem with hunting, even the DWR acknowledges it. The only way to increase opportunity for everyone without big game going the way of the passenger pigeon is to minimize harvest numbers.

There is only one way to increase opportunity for hunters without seriously reducing herd numbers and that is to have a lower percentage success rate. Increasing hunter numbers and keeping kill numbers the same can only happen by making it harder for individuals to be successful. RESTRICT WEAPON TECHNOLOGY! The DWR is talking about it but I guarantee like everything else they do it will be a half azz measure with minimal results just so they can say they did something to address the problem. There needs to be serious restrictions and it needs to be done now.

Go all out on restrictions for every method of hunting. The new HAMS rules are a good start but need to be implemented in all hunts. I've said from the beginning that restrictions should be sidelock percussion cap or flintlock muzzleloaders only with no magnified optics. Recurve or longbow only. Modern rifle technology is where it's going to be tricky. Personally I think limit it to technology that was only available in the past. Possibly restrict anything that wasn't available fifty years ago or sometime before modern long-range shooting was possible or even the rage that it is now. For hellz sake let's give these animals somewhat of a fighting chance to make through the year.

I don't see another realistic way to eliminate point creep and it will happen in two ways. One more tags means better draw odds. Secondly a harder method of hunting that takes time to master will weed out the non-dedicated lukewarm "fudds". How many guys do we compete with in the draws that really aren't committed to the hunt? There are a lot of guys that put in because it's the guy thing to do or for an excuse to be out with the guys and really only care about getting drunk around the campfire. These types are often the ones who trespass, commit game violations and really have not respect for wildlife or sportsmanship and make us all look bad in the eyes of non-hunters. Make it harder to hunt and they will lose interest.

Let's put the hunt back in hunting and forget about making it about killing. Fred Bear said it best "hunting will cleanse the soul". I never feel more alive or connected to the earth and to those who went before us than I do when I'm hunting.

Bragging rights, competition and money have no place in hunting and has ruined it as far as I'm concerned.

 

[notdonhunting]

Have you ever hunted elk in Colorado?

No I have not, I know a few guys that have and a couple came home with 180inch branch antler bull.
What is your point?

 

[hunt30]

Have you ever hunted elk in Colorado?

I agree with you. Colorado elk is a perfect example of why antler point restrictions don’t work.

 

[BIG]

No I have not, I know a few guys that have and a couple came home with 180inch branch antler bull.
What is your point?

I guess maybe that not all elk restrictions are spike only. Sounds like the guys you know killed elk bigger than spikes.

 

[2lumpy]

You are missing the point here when you say lifetime license holders get FREE permits or that they don't have to pay for a permit. They have already prepaid for each and every general unit deer tag, fishing license or small game license they receive. There were no free tags they were paid for in advance, $500 cash on the barrelhead upfront.

There were a lot of people at the time that thought it was ridiculous to pay $500 upfront because you could buy a tag over the counter for $25 then. Most people didn't look to the future and see how hard it could eventually be to draw a tag. Looking back now how many people wouldn't have taken that deal?
Paying a large sum upfront was a risk. Sure if you lived twenty plus years and got a tag every year that $500 could seem like a bargain but not everyone has been so lucky. There are guys that died the first year and never were able to see the benefits from their purchase and there was no refund. What about the guys that died five or ten years later, they didn't get a prorated refund on their purchase and for those guys it was no bargain.

When the lifetime license issue is brought up there is a lot of negativity and resentment from those who don't have one. Some have mentioned cancelling them or putting them on the worst unit that has no deer. Others say they are getting screwed over because they can't draw a tag and we are taking tags from them, well like my Grandma used to say "too f'n bad for you butthurt bittches ". I didn't buy bitcoin when it first came out but I don't begrudge those who did and became wealthy.

PACKOUT said every LL holder he has talked to wants tag restrictions so that it will benefit them. I don't know who he is talking to but it sure wasn't me. I would like to see everyone have lots of opportunity to hunt. I have five kids and it's hard for them to draw tags so when they don't draw I give up my tag for them through the mentor program.

Everyone agrees there is a supply and demand problem with hunting, even the DWR acknowledges it. The only way to increase opportunity for everyone without big game going the way of the passenger pigeon is to minimize harvest numbers.

There is only one way to increase opportunity for hunters without seriously reducing herd numbers and that is to have a lower percentage success rate. Increasing hunter numbers and keeping kill numbers the same can only happen by making it harder for individuals to be successful. RESTRICT WEAPON TECHNOLOGY! The DWR is talking about it but I guarantee like everything else they do it will be a half azz measure with minimal results just so they can say they did something to address the problem. There needs to be serious restrictions and it needs to be done now.

Go all out on restrictions for every method of hunting. The new HAMS rules are a good start but need to be implemented in all hunts. I've said from the beginning that restrictions should be sidelock percussion cap or flintlock muzzleloaders only with no magnified optics. Recurve or longbow only. Modern rifle technology is where it's going to be tricky. Personally I think limit it to technology that was only available in the past. Possibly restrict anything that wasn't available fifty years ago or sometime before modern long-range shooting was possible or even the rage that it is now. For hellz sake let's give these animals somewhat of a fighting chance to make through the year.

I don't see another realistic way to eliminate point creep and it will happen in two ways. One more tags means better draw odds. Secondly a harder method of hunting that takes time to master will weed out the non-dedicated lukewarm "fudds". How many guys do we compete with in the draws that really aren't committed to the hunt? There are a lot of guys that put in because it's the guy thing to do or for an excuse to be out with the guys and really only care about getting drunk around the campfire. These types are often the ones who trespass, commit game violations and really have not respect for wildlife or sportsmanship and make us all look bad in the eyes of non-hunters. Make it harder to hunt and they will lose interest.

Let's put the hunt back in hunting and forget about making it about killing. Fred Bear said it best "hunting will cleanse the soul". I never feel more alive or connected to the earth and to those who went before us than I do when I'm hunting.

Bragging rights, competition and money have no place in hunting and has ruined it as far as I'm concerned.

Very well articulated bob. Wish another 100 thousand folks here abouts had your attitude and perspective. When the management focus is to keep the least interested/concerned among us killing mule deer every chance they get, keeping a huntable surplus is impossible…… as has been demonstrated in every Western State.

By the way……. too bad your Grandma isn’t around to attend a few RAC/Board meetings.

 

[Packout]

PACKOUT said every LL holder he has talked to wants tag restrictions so that it will benefit them. I don't know who he is talking to but it sure wasn't me.

Just another lie. I said- "then ask if they have LLs and far too often the answer is "Yes"." And it is too often- but not every person. I'm not sure why you chose to be flippant with the truth.

As the Rule reads- you are entitled to a General Season deer permit.
(a) Each year, a lifetime licensee who is eligible to hunt big game may receive without charge, a permit for the unit of their choice for one of the following general deer hunts:

No one purchased a license that guarantees them a deer tag forever. If General Deer hunting stops so do the deer permits. Of course the license is still valid for hunting and fishing- unless those activities cease also. So you are correct- it was a gamble.

As for the rest of your post, there are some fair points.

 

[deadibob]

Just another lie. I said- "then ask if they have LLs and far too often the answer is "Yes"." And it is too often- but not every person. I'm not sure why you chose to be flippant with the truth.

As the Rule reads- you are entitled to a General Season deer permit.
(a) Each year, a lifetime licensee who is eligible to hunt big game may receive without charge, a permit for the unit of their choice for one of the following general deer hunts:

No one purchased a license that guarantees them a deer tag forever. If General Deer hunting stops so do the deer permits. Of course the license is still valid for hunting and fishing- unless those activities cease also. So you are correct- it was a gamble.

As for the rest of your post, there are some fair points.

Your words Packout:
"I know that many who ask for permit cuts or special regs for GS deer have lifetime licenses. I've had discussions with some about special regs and then ask if they have LLs and far too often the answer is "Yes". Then it is always, "but that isn't why I want these restrictions".

Okay you didn't say EVERY my bad and I recalled it incorrectly.

So you have had discussions with "SOME" about special regs and then ask those in favor of restrictions if they are L.L. holders? You claim that far too often the answer is yes. So how large a sample size is "SOME" and of those "SOME" you make the leap that many in favor of permit cuts are L.L. holders? Your assumptions are quite a stretch and you imply that lifetime license holders have selfish intentions. Do you ask those you speak to who are in favor of tag increases if they have a lifetime license? Why in the first place would you ask those in favor of special regs or permit cuts if they are lifetime license holders (seems like an odd and pointed question to ask when that is not the topic of conversation) unless you already have assumptions of and a bias against them.

So how about you? Are you willing to pick up a longbow, flintlock or Grandads '94 Winchester to increase permit numbers and allow more opportunity to the masses? Good hell I have a lifetime license and would personally like to see a five year moratorium on deer hunting for all. It would answer a lot of questions concerning the effects of deer growth by seeing which areas grow bigger deer, is it habitat, diet and minerals, genetics or just the opportunity to grow and mature. During WW2 there weren't many men around to hunt and the size of some bucks after time was amazing. I wish I still had Grandpa's pics from back then but granny told him "It's either me or those photos that go you sumabitch". I think for a while Gramps kind of missed her.

And of course if all deer hunting stops we won't get a permit, key word being ALL, that is pretty self explanatory.

 

[cannonball]

The guy at the Southern RAC got an amendment passed for the WB to look at only having a single draw for deer. No more general season, Dedicated and LE. So how would they deal with Lifetime license holders? They can't go to one draw and let the LLH take all the Premium permits off the top.
I would hope they do something along the lines of allowing them to put in for hunts the same as everyone else and if they have enough points to draw then they get the tag for free. Or, disqualifying them for certain hunt areas like the Henries and Puans and only allow them to get a LL on the Manti, Wasatch and a few other bigger units.

I am sure you are right and they would make certain restrictions for some units. Back in the day! I was looking at purchasing a Life-Time Deer hunting license, so I called the Utah DWR and asked some of the particulars of that license. They told me that if units were over-sold, I might not get the unit I wanted, and have to settle for an under-sold unit. That was my incentive NOT to purchase the Life-Time license. The way it has gone was a mistake on my part. They did not live up to what they told me. They could certainly have one draw which would vastly improve the draw point creep.

 

[cannonball]

Here is my help for the Point Creep – No one seems to want to sacrifice, but for someone who is willing to sacrifice consider adding one extra Gold Point (in other words a bonus/preference (GOLD) point to be used on the hunt they want) only to those who are willing to only apply for ONE hunt. In other words, if you put in for the regular deer hunt and no other, you get a “Gold Point”. If you put in for the regular hunt and a limited entry hunt you do NOT get the Gold Point. They are good to accumulate maximum draw points.

This is some sort of a solution for most hunters for existing accumulated Bonus and Preference points.

 

[BIG]

The cool thing is that you can implement whatever kind of point restriction you want on yourself when you have a tag! If I’m hunting, I can implement my own personal “4 point or better.” When I’m doing that, I love it that a bunch of other hunters will shoot a yearling and go home and leave 4 points alone. They win and I win. Freedom is cool like that.

When I try to make others hunt the way I want to hunt so it might be easier (debatable) for me to get the kind of bucks I’m looking for, it’s a lose-lose. I end up creating more competition for myself, I put 100% of the hunting pressure on the biggest bucks, and I force many others hunt in a way they don’t want to.

If you want to have an easier hunt for big bucks - put in for LE units, buy CWMU/LOA/Conservation tags or work really, really hard. But to force everyone else to hunt the way you want to, just doesn’t feel like a great solution to me.

Thanks for the freedom lesson, but you missed my point.

Having a bunch of hunters get out of your way by shooting small bucks sounds like addition by subtraction to me.

It doesn't matter anyway because Utah will likely never do a point restriction on the general.

Don't worry I am not looking for an easy hunt. I can hold my own. But if given the choice a point restriction in my opinion would be great.

 

[gundog2]

You are missing the point here when you say lifetime license holders get FREE permits or that they don't have to pay for a permit. They have already prepaid for each and every general unit deer tag, fishing license or small game license they receive. There were no free tags they were paid for in advance, $500 cash on the barrelhead upfront.

There were a lot of people at the time that thought it was ridiculous to pay $500 upfront because you could buy a tag over the counter for $25 then. Most people didn't look to the future and see how hard it could eventually be to draw a tag. Looking back now how many people wouldn't have taken that deal?
Paying a large sum upfront was a risk. Sure if you lived twenty plus years and got a tag every year that $500 could seem like a bargain but not everyone has been so lucky. There are guys that died the first year and never were able to see the benefits from their purchase and there was no refund. What about the guys that died five or ten years later, they didn't get a prorated refund on their purchase and for those guys it was no bargain.

When the lifetime license issue is brought up there is a lot of negativity and resentment from those who don't have one. Some have mentioned cancelling them or putting them on the worst unit that has no deer. Others say they are getting screwed over because they can't draw a tag and we are taking tags from them, well like my Grandma used to say "too f'n bad for you butthurt bittches ". I didn't buy bitcoin when it first came out but I don't begrudge those who did and became wealthy.

PACKOUT said every LL holder he has talked to wants tag restrictions so that it will benefit them. I don't know who he is talking to but it sure wasn't me. I would like to see everyone have lots of opportunity to hunt. I have five kids and it's hard for them to draw tags so when they don't draw I give up my tag for them through the mentor program.

Everyone agrees there is a supply and demand problem with hunting, even the DWR acknowledges it. The only way to increase opportunity for everyone without big game going the way of the passenger pigeon is to minimize harvest numbers.

There is only one way to increase opportunity for hunters without seriously reducing herd numbers and that is to have a lower percentage success rate. Increasing hunter numbers and keeping kill numbers the same can only happen by making it harder for individuals to be successful. RESTRICT WEAPON TECHNOLOGY! The DWR is talking about it but I guarantee like everything else they do it will be a half azz measure with minimal results just so they can say they did something to address the problem. There needs to be serious restrictions and it needs to be done now.

Go all out on restrictions for every method of hunting. The new HAMS rules are a good start but need to be implemented in all hunts. I've said from the beginning that restrictions should be sidelock percussion cap or flintlock muzzleloaders only with no magnified optics. Recurve or longbow only. Modern rifle technology is where it's going to be tricky. Personally I think limit it to technology that was only available in the past. Possibly restrict anything that wasn't available fifty years ago or sometime before modern long-range shooting was possible or even the rage that it is now. For hellz sake let's give these animals somewhat of a fighting chance to make through the year.

I don't see another realistic way to eliminate point creep and it will happen in two ways. One more tags means better draw odds. Secondly a harder method of hunting that takes time to master will weed out the non-dedicated lukewarm "fudds". How many guys do we compete with in the draws that really aren't committed to the hunt? There are a lot of guys that put in because it's the guy thing to do or for an excuse to be out with the guys and really only care about getting drunk around the campfire. These types are often the ones who trespass, commit game violations and really have not respect for wildlife or sportsmanship and make us all look bad in the eyes of non-hunters. Make it harder to hunt and they will lose interest.

Let's put the hunt back in hunting and forget about making it about killing. Fred Bear said it best "hunting will cleanse the soul". I never feel more alive or connected to the earth and to those who went before us than I do when I'm hunting.

Bragging rights, competition and money have no place in hunting and has ruined it as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I get it, but I'm not going to read your book

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

A lot of people complain that lifetime license holders are all for restrictions because it benefits them. I'm sure there's some truth to that. I am a lifetime license holder, I want accurate deer counts and then follow the plan. I'm fine with that. Don't give increases that don't follow the plan.

On the flip side, many people that don't have a lifetime licenses want tag increases. Is that what's best for the herd or what's best for you? It goes both ways.

 

[elkfromabove]

I think my favorite quote of this discussion on in post #41. "It's the same story everywhere you go, handful of hunters take it seriously and the rest are questionable at best."

Now, if we could only get rid of, weed out or discourage those questionables/Fudds or get them to lose interest, then hunting would be "better".

We've got a great start with Option #2, loss of Statewide Archery, ban on baiting, the strict use of trailcams, the non-posting of private property regulations and the definition of "highways", but there's still more work with antler restrictions, Lifetime License regs, reduced weapon and equipment technologies, and Dedicated Hunter regs. And don't forget treestands, blinds, roadhunting, shorter seasons, longer waiting periods, fewer yearly big game tag options, pay up front requirements and the many other topics that have been brought up to weed out those pesky unworthy buck/bull hunters. Keep it up, folks (that's gender-neutral, isn't it?) and you'll get what you're hoping for!

 

[elkassassin]

Easy There efa!

They Ain't Gonna Let You Be A Mastur-Baiter Anymore!

I think my favorite quote of this discussion on in post #41. "It's the same story everywhere you go, handful of hunters take it seriously and the rest are questionable at best."

Now, if we could only get rid of, weed out or discourage those questionables/Fudds or get them to lose interest, then hunting would be "better".

We've got a great start with Option #2, loss of Statewide Archery, ban on baiting, the strict use of trailcams, the non-posting of private property regulations and the definition of "highways", but there's still more work with antler restrictions, Lifetime License regs, reduced weapon and equipment technologies, and Dedicated Hunter regs. And don't forget treestands, blinds, roadhunting, shorter seasons, longer waiting periods, fewer yearly big game tag options, pay up front requirements and the many other topics that have been brought up to weed out those pesky unworthy buck/bull hunters. Keep it up, folks (that's gender-neutral, isn't it?) and you'll get what you're hoping for!