Switching to non-lead bullets.....which is best?

W

woodturner

Active Member
Messages
138
So.....I live in California. Starting July 1, 2019, I can only use non-lead bullets in my rifles.
Mostly I am worried about my 30 caliber rifles.
But, I do own other calibers also.
So....the question is: Which company makes the best copper bullet?

Does anyone make a good cartridge with a copper bullet?

I mostly hunt for Blacktails, but should get drawn for a nice mule deer hunt in the next couple of years. Then there is the chance of maybe a California elk hunt too.

So......suggestions?
I do handloading mostly.....but am willing to try complete cartridges.
Thanks.
Woodturner
 
I have had very good success with Barnes TTSX bullets. I have actually not used any other pure copper brand. Because they are solid copper they hold together and don't fragment like other bullets. The down side of copper is they most often blow through animals with a smaller wound channel. That said, most everything I have shot with them has dropped in their tracks.
 
I shot a tule bull last year,my father shot a Nevada buck also and my son and I shot two muleys on a x zone hunt this year all were with hornady GMX
 
What You Guys gonna use when they Ban Copper?










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
> What You Guys gonna use
>when they Ban Copper?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
Cross bow or compound
 
Barnes bullets are great ! I shot them twenty six years ago when I lived in California. You won't have any problems.
 
I've had great success here in California with factory 165 gr. Hornady GMX. 4 blacktails and a couple pronghorn. I don't reload.
 
I switched to Barnes a long time ago because they are so consistent.

As another poster said, sometimes the exit hole is troubling. I whacked a cow elk at about 80 yards the first year I used them. Heard the shot hit and saw her stumble. Never found the elk. We had 5-6 guys looking for her for a full day.

I switched to shoulder shots and never had a problem.

?Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. "
 
Another vote for Barnes. I also reload and tried Nosler copper as I have really good results in my 300 WSM with the ballistic silver tips. Their copper bullets gave me headaches and I could never get something that would shoot well. When I tried the Barnes, they were just what the doctor ordered.
 
>Another tree hugging, liberal joke law
>that really does nothing in
>the grand scheme.

You obviously didn't sit in the Arizona NR Bonus Point class on Saturday where they brought in hawks and had a Hunter Ed instructor give a presentation on lead poisoning in raptors.

Feel free to contact AZ Hunter Ed as I bet they'd give you the information you missed... it may change your perspective.


Grizzly
 
I've heard all the bad mouthing about copper ammo for years and it always seems to come from the people that don't use it.We haven't lost a animal yet hunting with it, 3 bucks and 1 bull haven't made it past a combined 40 yards after the shots.
The only thing I don't like is the price but it's still not that bad.
 
The Barnes bullets work fine and shoot well. I still like jacketed bullets better but if they told me I had to use copper it wouldn't upset me that much.












Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
So?

Copper doesn't Kill Condors?










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Barnes Copper Bullets are the bomb and perform well. I have used them and like them.
The bigger issue is finding the copper bullets in the caliber you want. This is the way the Democrats in this state are taking away our guns

You reload most don't and are out of luck in using some of their guns because they can't find the ammunition.

Barnes Bullets
 
>Raptors getting lead poisoning, from what
>- wounded game?
>
>Learn to shoot, problem solved...


The gut pile.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-19 AT 08:53AM (MST)[p]No from carcass's/gut piles left in the field...not everyone road hunts and takes their animals out whole.

Google it...
 
> So?
>
>Copper doesn't Kill Condors?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places c
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D

Only when used with 50/50 soilder. They banned that a long time ago. ? Plus Barnes kill animals doesn't leave them laying in the field. When we kill ( harvest) with copper bullets. We replace the copper in the ground like we found it. Can you say pass threw ! Just do your part and put the bullet where you are suppose to. ?
 
>No from carcass's/gut piles left in
>the field...not everyone road hunts
>and takes their animals out
>whole.
>
>Google it...

The hunter ed instructor shared pictures of a falcon of hers that caught a jackrabbit and died from accute lead poisoning within 24 hours. A necropsy and blood tests showed lethal lead levels which likely came from a single shotgun pellet the rabbit was carrying.

Birds of prey are extremely susceptible to lead, even in what we consider to be small amounts. They often die within 24-48 hours.

Here are photos of two non-lead bullets and one lead bullet in ballistic gelatin. The second pic is an x-ray showing the lead shrapnel.

Even if it's not for birds, how many want to feed that to your kids?


13459geletip270tiptsx400.jpg



24893xrayetip270tippedtsx400.jpg



Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
The collateral damage from lead bullets is a weak excuse to control people.

Has a birdy died from eating lead bullet fragments or a shotgun BB? YOU BET THEY HAVE. Does it happen as often enough to justify altering people's lifestyles, the legal system, and ultimately multi-million dollar businesses? HELL NO!

You know how many drown raptors I have pulled out of cow troughs??? DOZENS. You know how many dead raptors I have found from lead poisoning? ZERO.

Rotting piles as big as a high rise of dead raptors are killed every year through auto strikes, drowning, electrocution, and windmill strikes. IS there one single law passed against the general public to stop this? NOOOOOOOO.

But some anti-hunter finds a dead bird with a BB in its belly and suddenly we need to right more laws to stick hunters under our thumbs. AS IF WE NEEDED MORE.

WAKE UP FOLKS. THIS IS ABOUT CONTROL.


At the same time I use Barnes bullets but no one has ever accused me of being a great shot. :D
 
^^^ Well there goes any chance at an intelligent discussion. It was good while it lasted.

Somebody needs to make a forum for slaughterhouses on wheels so they don't have to pollute the hunting forums.

Grizzly
 
I thought the ban on lead bullets was repealed by Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke order 3346?
 
Grizzly,

Instead of talking crap can you produce one single piece of science that shows raptor numbers are decreasing in the United States or Canada. Not information about lead can kill a bird. I want you to think for a minute and actually show that their over all population isn't decreasing.

Then come back and lets quit making decisions based on your little boy hurt feelings and lets start making some decisions based on business and common sense.

I know to you it feels good putting a little birds tummy ache over someone's job because you get to feel tough telling people what to do but I would rather you grow up a little today.

Raptors are hatched. Raptors die. Happens every day. Get over it. The day you hit one with your car I expect you to self regulate yourself and start riding a bike. Until then your just a hypocrite.
 
I'm not a rocket scientist, but I'd say that anything that takes an animal out of a given population, is, in fact, decreasing the population.

Whether that's dying of old age, getting hit by a car, shot, or dying in a water trough.

I've never seen 10-1=11...at least not yet.

I'm sure tri-state will "prove" that theory wrong.

Wait for it...
 
Buzzh,

the 9 birds that survived each have 3 surviving hatchlings that didn't eat the lead. So in reality if you want to make it simple math the equation should look more like this. (X-1)3+X

But in reality this isn't accurate. Just much more accurate than the bull you posted.


In reality just like that dishonest person Grizzly you think you have a finite number of little birds in a box. Somehow if they die it is because we did or did not do something that killed them. If they reproduce it is because humans made them. In reality NATURE WORKS NOTHING LIKE THAT. Here's the really hard part for most Americans to comprehend. That BB left in the bunny is natural. Now that sentence is opinion but logical.
 
Raptors,ravens and and any other scavenger are on a big up swing and it has nothing to do with ammo it had to do with the government not baiting and poisoning everything.
Who's losing jobs over copper ammo any how if anything it's making more jobs.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-19 AT 11:26AM (MST)[p]>Can you
>produce one single piece of
>science that shows raptor numbers
>are decreasing in the United
>States or Canada. Not
>information about lead can kill
>a bird.

Never ask a question unless you're prepared for the answer...

Journal of Raptor Research - 51(3):193-197 (2017)

In recent years, Golden Eagles (Aquila chrysaetos) have emerged as a conservation concern in the United States, particularly in the West. These papers address several different topics, including religious take, lead and anticoagulant rodenticides, electrocution, and dispersal and survivorship of young eagles. The authors describe sources of lead and rodenticides in Golden Eagle habitats, exposure routes and toxicity, and subsequent potential impacts to individual eagles and populations.

Current data suggests a decline of golden eagles across the West. In addition to the usual culprits (habitat loss, poaching, etc.) a particular and surprising malady is affecting the population. In several studies, analysis of eagles and other scavenging birds point to elevated blood lead levels, coinciding with rifle hunting seasons and available gut piles on the landscape.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Again grizzly all you produced was information that lead can kill a birdy. You didn't produce a paper that said lead alone is responsible for a decrease in raptors anywhere in the US or Canada.

You presented a paper that "suggests" a decline in one species and then tries to blame it on lead. Get real.




Case in point. There is a township here in Texas that has a hog problem. They have contracted a trapper to take care of it. He traps hogs and shoots them in the head and takes them to a designated pile to rot. Guess what the township has a problem with now. Buzzards. Even the eagles that fish the nearby lake can be seen every day at the hog pile. You want to know how many have died of lead poisoning? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with zero. Do you think more or less birds are on the hog pile next month? You only get one guess. I bet everybody that lives there sure wishes some of those buzzards could sure pic up some lead poisoning but unfortunately they don't.
 
What happens if none of the 9 have a "hatchling" survive?

The fact remains, when an individual of any species is removed from the population, that animal has left the population and decreased it by one.

Just a fact.

I made no mention of "projecting" a population growth/decline curve.

Only that you have to be clueless if you don't think removing animals from a population isn't impacting the population...no question it does.
 
The falconer that taught the class told a story about a time they were hunting with their birds in Arizona and one of their hawks landed on the roof of a truck driving down a dirt road. The driver, while the falconers were watching, got out of his truck and shot the bird off the roof.

I can't help but coalesce your arguments about slitting throats, unavoidable collisions, general lack of concern for animals, and bragging of being a "rolling slaughterhouse on wheels" when thinking of this story.

You are a valueless poster on this site. I'll focus my attention elsewhere.

Grizzly
 
Tristate,
You say you have found zero birds that died from lead poisoning. Just curious, do you get them tested from a lab somewhere or are you just guessing they died from other causes? If you do use a lab, how much do you spend on testing?
 
woodturner,

I'm sorry your thread got high jacked. I've had great success with Barnes VOR-TX Long Range. I can use lead bullets where I hunt but I still use these because they are the most consistent out of my gun (300 Win Mag)
 
I've shot Barnes bullets for years and haven't found anything better. That being said, if lead core bullets really do kill raptors then I'm switching back to lead. There are way too many birds of prey around here. Nearly one on every pole. I'm surprised there is any small game or rodents left, that's how many there are.
 
Barnes TTSX! I shoot a .270 Weatherby and use the same bullets for black tail, mule deer, elk etc. and they work very well.
I've upgraded my scope and am (target) shooting out to 1000 yards. With that being said I can not discount any of the other bullets discussed, I've only used Barnes. Good luck.

hwy
 
"You obviously didn't sit in the Arizona NR Bonus Point class on Saturday where they brought in hawks and had a Hunter Ed instructor give a presentation on lead poisoning in raptors.

Feel free to contact AZ Hunter Ed as I bet they'd give you the information you missed... it may change your perspective."


Grizz
Ask Don if he shoots lead free ammo, I bet you'd be surprised at his answer...
 
Tristate just doesn't like anyone telling him what to do. If you told him you were putting a million dollars in his checking account, he would fight you because he wouldn't want to write all those zeros unless it's his idea.
 
Your all out of ideas grizzly. Like every other time you flat ran out of ideas and now you are throwing your little trash talking tantrum because someone isn't going to let you boss other people around.

Like I said I fully expect you to take up bike riding instead of driving. Until then your just a hypocrite who gets satisfaction out of telling people what to do.
 
Eelgrass,

I like people to use logic and stay out of other people's business.

There is a certain group of people that get great satisfaction knowing they screwed other people over. One of these is Grizzly and he will use any form of dishonesty at his disposal to feel self-righteous and superior over others.

I would like to try your million dollar experiment though. :D
 
Only a kid would think this is about winning or loosing. How very sad.


Alright fellas I pose a question to yall now.

How many people here make their own bullets? If you have, have you ever tried to make your own copper bullets?
 
Well I am sorry this thread went off on a tangent.
Thank you to those who tried to answer the question...??...and not pick a fight.
Next time....if you want to discuss lead poisoning ?.start a thread on lead poisoning.

I am just trying to get ideas of what bullets to go to, since by law, I have to.
I will check out the Hornady cartridges and the Barnes bullets. Thank you for the suggestions.

I will keep an eye to see where this goes from here. But, I only check the web site once a day at most.
Thanks again to those who answered the question.
Woodturner
 
It kind of is my business Tristate. I live in California and it's the law. It's a huge deal here too because some years California kills over 12 deer in a single season...:D
 
>It kind of is my business
>Tristate. I live in California
>and it's the law. It's
>a huge deal here too
>because some years California kills
>over 12 deer in a
>single season...:D


Lmao!!!!
 
Well this sure escalated quickly.. lol

Anyway just going to throw my experience out there I just bought my first box of copper ammo and went with Barnes with my new rifle to site in and I can tell you my first day out after getting my scope adjusted I put 2 bullets on top of each other with touching holes. So I can't speak for what they do to the game but I will say they are accurate out of my new rifle and that's most important. From the research I've done I haven't heard of very many that couldn't get tight groups with Barnes.
 
If You See one of BuzzH's Favorite Pet Wolves!

Shoot that F'R Twice!

In the Guts!

With Lead Ammo!

They won't let You Shoot Magpies!

Or Crows!

Or Ravens!

Or Chicken Hawks that are Perched on every F'N Power Pole around here!

They Don't GAS about there not being any Pheasants around here anymore!

How Much is that KALI KONDOR Worth?














I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
we have too many raptors anyway who cares.

Back when we used Warbex you'd find dead raptors by the dozens. we had lots of pheasant back then too. I bet Warbex killed more birds in a year than lead does in a decade.

We love our manufactured crisis's. where you have actual endangered birds like condors then I can see it otherwise BFD.













Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
Every-time I even think about this LEAD FREE Bullet BS I Think of places like Farmington Bay!

If You Boys knew how much Lead these Quackers Injest You wouldn't be eating them!

But Carry On!

Just Don't Shoot Deer with Lead!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I switched to Barnes LRX in .30 and .284. They work better than the lead bullets I had been using, which were considered premium.
Tristate, You are so stuck on one thing that you couldn't care about facts, reality, or anyone except yourself, or anything except your opinion. Please stop being a giant douche.
 
We can't use lead .22 rimfire for hunting in California either. Last I heard the copper .22 ammo is pretty inaccurate, and expensive. I haven't researched lately. I'll try and make sure no raptors eat the feral cats for now.
 
Eelgrass,

you misunderstood the statement I made. I know the law is your business. However we sure get an awful lot of new laws in the hunting regs because people don't mind their business.

As for your .22 predicament you are feeling the purpose of the law.

Grizzly,

I just spent four hours driving this morning. Counted 14 dead raptors on the highway from car strikes. I expect you to quit driving now and be an advocate for all people to end driving since it kills raptors. Actually kills them waaaaaay faster than lead poisoning.




Now I am still looking to see if anyone here makes their own bullets?
 
>
>I just spent four hours driving
>this morning. Counted 14
>dead raptors on the highway
>from car strikes. I
>expect you to quit driving
>now and be an advocate
>for all people to end
>driving since it kills raptors.
> Actually kills them waaaaaay
>faster than lead poisoning.
>

You have already been proven to be a lair, so how are we to believe you that all those raptors died from car strikes? Prove that they died car strikes. Hell, prove you drove around for four hours. I bet you're lying about that too.

Now run along boy, get to proving.
 
> Every-time I even think about
>this LEAD FREE Bullet BS
>I Think of places like
>Farmington Bay!
>
>If You Boys knew how much
>Lead these Quackers Injest You
>wouldn't be eating them!
>
>But Carry On!
>
>Just Don't Shoot Deer with Lead!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D


ElkASS,
you know lead shot has been banned from waterfowl hunting for close to 30 years now, right?
 
Where was I proven to be a liar?


Dance monkey, dance!



I better look out Grizzly called in his ferocious chihuahua, Towlie to save the poor birds with tummy aches.
 
>> Every-time I even think about
>>this LEAD FREE Bullet BS
>>I Think of places like
>>Farmington Bay!
>>
>>If You Boys knew how much
>>Lead these Quackers Injest You
>>wouldn't be eating them!
>>
>>But Carry On!
>>
>>Just Don't Shoot Deer with Lead!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I know so many people in
>>so many places
>>They make allot of money but
>>they got sad faces
>>
>>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
>
>
>ElkASS,
>you know lead shot has been
>banned from waterfowl hunting for
>close to 30 years now,
>right?

What about the Millions of Pounds of Lead Scattered before that?

What about all the Empties I see Scattered all over that were not Lead Free Bullets?

Ya!

Everybody is obeying that Law!

JUDAS!!!







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
"I just spent four hours driving this morning. Counted 14 dead raptors on the highway from car strikes."

That number seems high. Did you tie a jack rabbit to your front bumper and drive around for 4 hours? :D

I went through an "informational" meeting on the dangers of lead bullets a couple years ago in California. It was interesting. They gave me a free box of lead free ammo to try.The bottom line for us Californians is it's law now.
 
>"I just spent four hours driving
>this morning. Counted 14 dead
>raptors on the highway from
>car strikes."
>
>That number seems high. Did you
>tie a jack rabbit to
>your front bumper and drive
>around for 4 hours? :D
>
>
>I went through an "informational" meeting
>on the dangers of lead
>bullets a couple years ago
>in California. It was interesting.
>They gave me a free
>box of lead free ammo
>to try.The bottom line for
>us Californians is it's law
>now.
Shoot the ammo? mtmuley
 
Check out Cutting Edge bullets. I haven't loaded any yet, but a friend who loads a lot said they're extremely accurate in the calibers he's tested. Lot's of reviews out there...
 
>^^^ Well there goes any chance
>at an intelligent discussion. It
>was good while it lasted.
>
>
>Somebody needs to make a forum
>for slaughterhouses on wheels so
>they don't have to pollute
>the hunting forums.
>
>Grizzly

How about Buzzards ? Just curious if there were any studies on that bird , they eat a lot of dead animals.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-19 AT 07:01AM (MST)[p]mtmuley, yes I did. It's the most accurate ammo I've ever shot through my .300 Win. Mag. and bullet performance has been great. Hornady GMX. I've fired 7 rounds for 6 animals so far.
 
I have only used Barnes, so can't speak about the rest.

I've used the Barnes X, XLC, TSX and TTSX, on coyotes, deer, elk, and a few turkeys, in cartridges from 22 Hornet to 30-06.

The TSX and TTSX are very accurate, and very deadly. Since 1992, when I started using Barnes X, I have not recovered a single bullet.

Excellent bullets and on-game performance.

I would expect the Nosler E-Tip and Hornaday GMX to perform like a Barnes. Try them and go with the most accurate one for your rifle.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-19
>AT 07:01?AM (MST)
>
>mtmuley, yes I did. It's the
>most accurate ammo I've ever
>shot through my .300 Win.
>Mag. and bullet performance has
>been great. Hornady GMX. I've
>fired 7 rounds for 6
>animals so far.

Hey Eel?

Was The 7th Round used on a Grower?:D









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-19
>>AT 07:01?AM (MST)
>>
>>mtmuley, yes I did. It's the
>>most accurate ammo I've ever
>>shot through my .300 Win.
>>Mag. and bullet performance has
>>been great. Hornady GMX. I've
>>fired 7 rounds for 6
>>animals so far.
>
>Hey Eel?
>
>Was The 7th Round used on
>a Grower?:D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D

Maybe. :D

No. Last year I shot a buck and it ran down the mountain out of sight. Another hunter heard me shoot and came over to see what was going on. We walked down the hill together and he spotted it laying down but still alive. It was about 75 yards away and he told me to shoot it again. I tried the off hand neck shot....and missed. It died right after that before we got there.(I hate wasting ammo.)
 
Fast forward to the last post above - raptors are susceptible to small amounts of lead but crows (ravens) and any other bird of scavenge are not? I get it that it can happen from a rabbit carrying one pellet from a missed shot with a shotgun (.22 LR is much more effective for the end result of table fare, but that's a different discussion), but gut piles from a deer or elk?

I've never seen a hawk circling the carcass or gut pile of anything I've left in the field, but I have crows/ravens and buzzards, and sometimes before you're even done.

There may be more raptors killed from powerlines and wind turbines than lead poisoning, but those are acceptable because it's enviro-friendly...
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-19
>AT 07:01?AM (MST)
>
>mtmuley, yes I did. It's the
>most accurate ammo I've ever
>shot through my .300 Win.
>Mag. and bullet performance has
>been great. Hornady GMX. I've
>fired 7 rounds for 6
>animals so far.
eel what's the limit now for feral cats? I thought it was only 5 .
 
I know it's sacrilegious to question peer reviewed university data, but here in California we had a couple Fish and Wildlife commissioners resign over the conflict of lead bullets.

After the lead ban in the Condor Zone, it was found that Condors had as high or higher levels of lead than prior to the ban. They were basically told to sit down and be quiet.

 
>There may be more raptors killed
>from powerlines and wind turbines
>than lead poisoning, but those
>are acceptable because it's enviro-friendly...
>

Maybe, but justifying bad behavior by pointing at bad behavior is never a strong argument. That's like saying we should have cow elk and doe deer seasons everywhere because more are killed by cars and winter kill anyway. Or that we should shoot hen mallards and hen pheasants because more die of natural causes anyway. Or that we should have more predators because there are lots of ways that deer and elk are killed every year.

This isn't a matter of relativism, its one of responsible stewardship of wildlife.

I'm not on some crusade, in fact I shoot a jacketed bullet, but that doesn't mean its not a consideration worth having. I crack up at the people that think this is some big liberal overreach trying to stop hunting, erstwhile they load up their steel shot and go duck hunting without thinking about it.

Grizzly
 
>>There may be more raptors killed
>>from powerlines and wind turbines
>>than lead poisoning, but those
>>are acceptable because it's enviro-friendly...
>>
>
>Maybe, but justifying bad behavior by
>pointing at bad behavior is
>never a strong argument. That's
>like saying we should have
>cow elk and doe deer
>seasons everywhere because more are
>killed by cars and winter
>kill anyway. Or that we
>should shoot hen mallards and
>hen pheasants because more die
>of natural causes anyway. Or
>that we should have more
>predators because there are lots
>of ways that deer and
>elk are killed every year.
>
>
>This isn't a matter of relativism,
>its one of responsible stewardship
>of wildlife.
>
>I'm not on some crusade, in
>fact I shoot a jacketed
>bullet, but that doesn't mean
>its not a consideration worth
>having. I crack up at
>the people that think this
>is some big liberal overreach
>trying to stop hunting, erstwhile
>they load up their steel
>shot and go duck hunting
>without thinking about it.
>
>Grizzly



When others are bringing up power lines and wind turbines as bigger killers I don't see them using bad behavior as a defense I think what people are trying to say is the ends don't justify the means the number of birds that actually die from lead poisoning from lead ammo is so small that it doesn't justify this stupid lead free law. What people are saying if In fact the real concern is the birds the money wasted pushing this stupid law through could have been spent elsewhere to actually do something.. I have to disagree with you that this isn't something used to push back against hunting any law that can be passed to limit anything to do with guns or hunting will get support from the left because it is a form of gun control the more laws that are passed to limit and make things more difficult for the hunters and gun owners is a form of gun control
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-19 AT 12:18PM (MST)[p]I like what Grizzly said. That being said, I think it's a bad idea to ban lead entirely. Coming from California, I could believe it's another way to stick it to the gun owners. They have made it their mission to put barriers up and the gun owning Democrats are mum about it. I think if it was a genuine Raptor or Condor concern then they would enforce a ban for hunting but that's not what's happening here. It's purely political and they won't stop dreaming up ways to make it more and more difficult to enjoy guns. What's the alternative to lead in 22lr? Whatever it is I bet it's more expensive and there's no risk of Raptor contamination at the shooting range. Why can't lead be allowed there or other places when you're plinking and not actively hunting?

When I was younger, me and dad would kill prairie dogs until we ran out of ammo. During that time there were three pairs of Golden Eagles within about a 20 mile radius we would see regularly. I don't know if any of them were affected or not. We kept seeing them each time we were out there but I can't say if they were the same ones. I would do things differently now that I could risk killing them. To argue against the science of lead contamination in birds is ignorant. But to argue it's a sure thing is stupid too.

 
Wow thanks for posting that link eelgrass! That doesn't surprise me one bit. I think everyone should go watch that and pay attention to the quote from one of the anti hunting groups that supported the bill saying they want to end all hunting...
 
SHOOTING A LEAD BULLET AIN'T BAD BEHAVIOR!


You ain't our daddy Mr. Grizzly. Stuff that in your copper pipe and smoke it.
 
Captain_coues, to be fair and honest, it's still legal to shoot lead at the range or while target shooting in California. It's only when hunting that lead is banned. For most hunters the whole idea is to shoot your hunting loads at the range though.

The ground squirrel and prairie dog hunters are kind of hung out to dry right now until they make major improvements in copper rimfire cartridges. It's been a couple years since I've checked, so there might be some available now.
 
Non-toxic rifle bullets are a no-brainer as far as I am concerned. I have been shooting Barnes since I shot my last box of Swift sciroccos and have noticed no difference in the deadness of my deer at ranges from 100-350 yards. Most open completely and stop under the skin on the opposite side. I did change from 180 grain swifts to 165 barnes, figuring I'd lose less metal on impact. In all, I wish I had switched earlier. Too much lead ain't good for the gizzard.

Now, requiring non-toxic shot for quail and doves is going too far. Even a size 7 1/2 steel loses too much speed and size 6 opens big holes in my .20 gauge pattern.
 
Any thinking person realizes that by using lead, there is a chance they are killing some birds. It should give them pause the next time they go into the field.

How many bullets do you actually shoot at game each year??? Is it really that arduous to think about using non lead bullets for the actual kill shots. Lead wont likely kill anything at the shooting range, but it can and does kill birds in the field. Anyone that tries to dispute those facts is not a "thinking person"

Am I for banning lead bullets, no, but we have to take into account that we are potentially causing harm by using them in the field.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
=
 
>>Now, requiring non-toxic shot for quail and doves is going too >>far. Even a size 7 1/2 steel loses too much speed and size 6 >>opens big holes in my .20 gauge pattern.

Biology 101:

Because wild birds, including turkeys, have no teeth to chew food, they require swallowing small stones or gravel in order to digest their food while its in their gizzard, i.e. identical to the condors.


TONY MANDILE
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How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
"When others are bringing up power lines and wind turbines as bigger killers I don't see them using bad behavior as a defense I think what people are trying to say is the ends don't justify the means the number of birds that actually die from lead poisoning from lead ammo is so small that it doesn't justify this stupid lead free law."

Smithb9841 gets it.

The more copper used to make bullets, the more expensive they are. The more expensive, the less shooting is done, ushering in the reduction in quantity demanded. Production rates decrease and, in turn, overall supply of the good.

The most shot up animals that come through our doors at our processing faciltiy are from solid core, non-lead bullets. Sorry, that's the way it is.
 
>"When others are bringing up power
>lines and wind turbines as
>bigger killers I don't see
>them using bad behavior as
>a defense I think what
>people are trying to say
>is the ends don't justify
>the means the number of
>birds that actually die from
>lead poisoning from lead ammo
>is so small that it
>doesn't justify this stupid lead
>free law."
>
>Smithb9841 gets it.
>
>The more copper used to make
>bullets, the more expensive they
>are. The more expensive,
>the less shooting is done,
>ushering in the reduction in
>quantity demanded. Production rates
>decrease and, in turn, overall
>supply of the good.
>
>The most shot up animals that
>come through our doors at
>our processing faciltiy are from
>solid core, non-lead bullets.
>Sorry, that's the way it
>is.


This is pretty funny stuff. mtmuley
 
"Because wild birds, including turkeys, have no teeth to chew food, they require swallowing small stones or gravel in order to digest their food while its in their gizzard, i.e. identical to the condors."

Understood. Nevertheless, and without data to prove my point, I would suggest that the greater density of lead quickly drives it into the ground beyond the reach of foraging quail, much as gold quickly sinks through gravel to the bottom of a pan. And, unlike waterfowl, quail, chukar, etc don't dredge mud to extract solid particles. Ultimately, any restrictions on shot should consider the pros as well as the cons, and it seems to me that banning lead shot for upland birds requires a different analysis than banning lead rifle bullets.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-19 AT 11:28AM (MST)[p]Back in 1989-1990, when the feds were implementing the lead shot restrictions for waterfowl hunting, they told us that the ducks were ingesting the lead from the bottom of the ponds when they fed. And that this caused some of them to die from lead poisoning. Back then, I hunted waterfowl pretty much the whole season and I never saw a sick duck! Of course, I was much more gullible back then and I believed them so I switched to steel shot. One ruined Browning A5, and dozens of crippled ducks later, I realized that I was seeing a lot more more "sick (crippled) ducks" than I ever did before the ban.
I can say from first hand experience that the lead shot ban may have saved a few ducks from dying of lead poisoning, but it killed countless thousands more due to crippling with the much less efficient steel. Later, when they came out with the improved non-toxic shot like Hevi Shot, Tungsten, & Bismuth, the kill rates came back up but I still contend that we lost far more ducks due to crippling with steel shot, than we ever lost to lead poisoning.

For those of you that prefer the copper bullets, more power to you. But use them because you like them and have had good results, not because of some fabricated environmental BS fed to us by the government.
I once teased a friend of mine about "all that lead pollution he was spreading on the hillside" as he emptied his BELT FED 1919 A6 Browning. He just smiled back at me and replied, "where the hell do you think lead comes from"?
 
Lead in "the hillside" is not the issue. It is the small pieces in the gutpile or carcass that birds consume when eating on a carcass. It DOES happen. So, maybe the losses are acceptable, but can't say "It don't happen"

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Your friend has a great point and one I have been saying for years. Lead comes out of the ground, go to any sandbox your kid has and put a magnet in it and you get lead.

That is the main reason I am furious over them shutting down one of our shooting ranges closest to me because of lead poisoning. I call b---s---
 
>Your friend has a great point
>and one I have been
>saying for years. Lead comes
>out of the ground, go
>to any sandbox your kid
>has and put a magnet
>in it and you get
>lead.
>
>That is the main reason I
>am furious over them shutting
>down one of our shooting
>ranges closest to me because
>of lead poisoning. I call
>b---s---


Wow. And you call BS. Amazing. mtmuley
 
for one thing lead is not magnetic, I can not say weather or not lead is toxic, that is what they say. alot of you may not put that much out there,but between me and my 2 brothers you couldn't haul the lead in a semi truck that we put in the field in the last 40 years.I live in ca. and we have a lot to shoot at and I have been using none toxic for years now and that is all we can use now,will I stop hunting no, am I going to complain no, I am going to be first for animals and the environment regardless of what I can hunt with. I am leaving this morning to dump 30 pound of steel in the ca marshes for the next ten days. I use tripleshock barnes for rifle bullets.don't be worried if you have to use it it will work.
 
The defense that it is okay to spray lead because it is "natural" is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Petroleum comes from the ground, but do you want a tanker unloading on your front lawn? Arsenic and uranium come from the ground too. Heck, Ebola is natural; so is hemlock and cyanide. Does that mean they're safe?

PS. Never take advice on lead poisoning from somebody that thinks its magnetic.

Grizzly
 
All of the supplement companies will have in their info: :Its all natural so it is safe and has no side effects." HAHAHAHAHA

Oleander leaves are Natural, but one leaf is enough to kill a child


Anyone who tries to claim that lead in gut piles and carcasses don't kill flesh eating birds is not being factual/truthful. If you want to argue that, yes it does kill them, but not at a rate that we have to be concerned about, then you may had a point.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-19 AT 08:46PM (MST)[p]uh...lead is nonferrous 53....that is iron on your magnet....


497fc2397b939f19.jpg

GOODWIN: Dems really do love Republicans -- when they're dead...
 
I wanna know who is gonna clean Utah Lake & Farmington Bay Up?

Probably 4"-6" of Lead on the Bottom of both of them!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Hello txhunter58,
That is exactly my point! Lets try to keep some perspective on it!I do not dispute that there may have been a few deaths of condors that fed on a gutpile and ingested some lead bullet fragments. I just don't buy that it is a common occurrence, and that we should all change over to copper bullets on the off chance that some stupid gut eater might get sick!

I do not like the trend in this country to shape public opinion and behavior with questionable evidence and emotion.

I once found a deer carcass that had become caught in a barbwire fence. The coyotes had found & fed on him. That was an ugly scene but I doubt we could (or should) do away with all the barbwire fencing on public land.

As I stated before, If you have had good results with copper bullets, use them and be happy. If you choose to use copper bullets because you feel it is somehow better for the environment, knock yourself out!

I personally think that copper is an inferior choice for bullets, but that is just my opinion. I won't insist that you use lead bullets if you won't insist that I use copper. Fair enough?

If you happen to live in California and are forced by law to use copper, you have my condolences.


Elkchaser
 
So here?s something else to ask and if someone has a an answer I'd really like to know.. why is it that only the California condor is effected by lead left behind in gut piles? Are other birds that eat off gut piles and animals left in the field not effected by the lead? Bcuz if other birds are just as effected why don't we see this issue of lead poisoning in other birds in other states? I mean you got guys ?eradicating? hogs in Texas leaving dead animals all over the place seems like the vultures there would be dropping out of the sky if lead ammo is really that deadly right??

I know I kinda worded that like a smart*** but I'm seriously asking why is this only a problem in California with the California condor?

Like others stated if I believed and there was enough unbiased evidence to make me believe that this was really hurting other animals in our ecosystem on a scale that would actually have an effect I'd have no problem switching but there isn't. This is something that is blown out of proportion
 
When I shoot a hog on my ranch in Texas and leave it lay, I see buzzards, hawks and eagles feeding on it. I have no doubt that I have killed a few with lead fragments. So, no, it is not just a problem in California. Have I banned lead on my ranch? No, but am open to the idea if more evidence surfaces that we are indeed killing more than a few.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-19 AT 10:14AM (MST)[p]Hello Grizzly,
Do you really believe that, just because your instructor is wearing a G & F patch on his shirt, he knows any more about lead poisoning in raptors than you, or me, or anyone else that bothers to do some objective research? Really?

I was a Hunter Ed instructor for several years back in the early 90's and we had the same information as everyone else. The only difference was, because we represented the AZ G&F department, we were required to follow their "curriculum". That is one of the reasons I quit teaching with them.
AZGF is a political organization just like any other state agency.

For those of you that think the lead core bullet ban in California will stay in California, think again!

Makes me wonder who is really behind this? Barnes bullets? Phelps-Dodge (copper) Mining? PETA? Sierra Club?
 
"Even if it's not for birds, how many want to feed that to your kids?"

C'mon Grizzly, Children? Emotion? You can do better than that! I can't even begin to estimate how many hundreds of thousands of animals are harvested with lead bullets every year, and then consumed by humans with not one single reported case of lead poisoning!
 

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