The REAL cost of "conservation" in Utah

hossblur

Long Time Member
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Notice, the 2groups(sorry Slam, but good lord), that just bilked the public at the expo, then check out the ACTUAL take.

I know, we are not to ask for results. But what has Utah created, that every state around us doesn't have? Other than a real nice corporate hunting scheme.

Go ahead fellas. Enjoy year 27 if not drawing that elk.

10.5 pages of "conservation" tags. Check it out, then let's hear about "all the great work".

10.5 pages of tags.

Is it OK to ask if $fw and MDF would even be around if not for the massive amount of government cheese?
 

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The amount of tags does seem excessive, that's for sure.
It probably is time to start cutting back on what there is available.
Even if it was to cut 10% each year for the next ten years, I think that would be a good start.
For example, if there are 500 tags right now available, then in ten years it would be cut down to around 175.
 
Indeed, the 200 Expo tags are in a separate program and thus on a separate list! See the Expo draw results. Additionally, The CWMU's and some Landowners also get separate tags which they can sell!
WOW!

What are we talking here? 500 Special Interest Tags?

1,000?
 
Email your WB members and express your concerns over the tag allotment programs if you don't like it and or don't understand it.

If your not willing to put a shovel in your hands or donate your time or money into actually doing something for wildlife that these tags pay for, then gather in masses to get them revoked and reinstated back to the general draw where they'll make thousands versus millions and let's all complain that the DWR isn't doing enough.

Go ahead and try to crucify me, I'm used to it.
I'll focus my energy on the 400 people that will be at my banquet in 3 weeks supporting conservation versus the 15 on here that don't.

I've wasted enough of my time and resources showing you where these conservation dollars go that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Try actually DOING something versus complaining on the forums, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ?‍♂️
 
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Email your WB members and express your concerns over the tag allotment programs if you don't like it and or don't understand it.

If your not willing to put a shovel in your hands or donate your time or money into actually doing something for wildlife that these tags pay for, then gather in masses to get them revoked and reinstated back to the general draw where they'll make thousands versus millions and let's all complain that the DWR isn't doing enough.

Go ahead and try to crucify me, I'm used to it.
I'll focus my energy on the 400 people that will be at my banquet in 3 weeks supporting conservation versus the 15 on here that don't.

I've wasted enough of my time and resources showing you where these conservation dollars go that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Try actually DOING something versus complaining on the forums, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ?‍♂️

"Where they will make thousands vs millions"

That's the entirety of the Utah attitude.

Slam, I was in one of the biggest waterfowl management areas(won't say which as I don't want to put heat on the guy), "not doing anything for wildlife". While we were riding out, the manager and I were talking, and I asked him what his biggest problem, besides water, was.

Point blank he said money. The best biologists, don't work for the DWR, because they can't compete in salary. Pointed to his own situation, a guy running one of the largest WMA in Utah, and a kid he trained, makes double, working for a private group, running 1/4 of the acres.
Gave me something to think about the rest of that day as I was "just complaining on the internet," in July on a 102 day in the swamp surrounded by mosquitoes.

Point being, this "conservation tag" crap has become its own self fulfilling issue. State budgets are tight, so in swoops a group and helps out, group then goes to the state and says, "hey we helped out, we need tags", state looks at the millions generated by tags, and doesn't bump budgets for DWR.

Round and round we go, until some guy" who doesn't lift a shovel" posts 10.5 pages of tags handed out, one week after 200 more were handed out, showing in writing, just how bad it's gotten.

Further, Slam, I go to banquets. Let's not pretend the "400" folks there, will generate the price whatever tag your auctioning off will. Or that whoever is on the other side of that phone line, ever lifted a shovel. Here's a test, ask daddy deep pocket, after he wins the tag auction, if he will donate it back, so you can auction it off again to raise more for conservation. You know, put out money without receiving anything in return. I mean these guys are conservation warriors, shouldn't be a problem, right?

Ya. We are on our third trip to the WB for cams. I'm sure the corporate class that guides the majority of these "conservation tags", won't pull the same crap.Thecsystem is a tad rigged, in case you forgot how MDF even has an expo project.

I'll ponder that next time I'm hunting on nature conservancy ground(no tags), while looking for the SCI ground(tags). I'll think about it while on the ground MDF, RMEF, SFW, and nature conservancy just bought, and I promise I won't wonder, with all those millions in tags over the year, did they need a partner without a single one.

Maybe, I'll do it today, when I look west at AI, and think about the millions in tags "to save the island", but on which A CLOTHING COMPANY, KUIU, had to pay for the sheep on it.

Nah. Better not ponder any of that, because that leads to questions, and questions get mighty uncomfortable once in awhile.?

I realize you don't get paid personally.
 
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I think the DWR gets the same amount of money selling conservation tags as they do in the public draw? They still have to sell more general season buck tags than the actual number of antlered buck deer on the ground, just to keep the lights on. They still have to charge relatively high nonrefundable application fees for everything including general deer, LE hunt, OIL hunt, sharp tail grouse, sage grouse, swan, bear, cougar, turkey. Tried to add general season elk to the list this year, but that got shut down by a ground swell of anger. It’s not uncommon for me to spend $90 per year and end up with nothing more than a small game license. That doesn’t include the $180 I lost in the expo raffle.
 
I think the DWR gets the same amount of money selling conservation tags as they do in the public draw? They still have to sell more general season buck tags than the actual number of antlered buck deer on the ground, just to keep the lights on. They still have to charge relatively high nonrefundable application fees for everything including general deer, LE hunt, OIL hunt, sharp tail grouse, sage grouse, swan, bear, cougar, turkey. Tried to add general season elk to the list this year, but that got shut down by a ground swell of anger. It’s not uncommon for me to spend $90 per year and end up with nothing more than a small game license. That doesn’t include the $180 I lost in the expo raffle.

I suggest you might want to do your homework before telling us what you think happens with Conservation/Expo tags vs general public tags! Not even close!


Even if you pull ALL of your Conservation/Expo tag money out of the mix ($8M or so), that still leaves $108M that the rest of us are paying in Restricted funds (Licenses & Permits) & Federal funds (Pittman/Robertson Act). And, yes, we keep the lights on while the Conservation/Expo doesn't and that seems to be an important aspect of the DWR's work.

The difference in the two incomes is nothing more than the PR that individual Conservation & Expo tags get vs my (and 258,000 other Utahns) tags get.

I'm sorry you may occasionally strike out on the General & LE draws with your $90, but how often do you strike out on the Expo draw with your $180? It seems to be a matter of how you want to spend your money to get a tag or two or three.
 
I suggest you might want to do your homework before telling us what you think happens with Conservation/Expo tags vs general public tags! Not even close!


Even if you pull ALL of your Conservation/Expo tag money out of the mix ($8M or so), that still leaves $108M that the rest of us are paying in Restricted funds (Licenses & Permits) & Federal funds (Pittman/Robertson Act). And, yes, we keep the lights on while the Conservation/Expo doesn't and that seems to be an important aspect of the DWR's work.

The difference in the two incomes is nothing more than the PR that individual Conservation & Expo tags get vs my (and 258,000 other Utahns) tags get.

I'm sorry you may occasionally strike out on the General & LE draws with your $90, but how often do you strike out on the Expo draw with your $180? It seems to be a matter of how you want to spend your money to get a tag or two or three.
I think you misunderstood my question and comment. My question was whether or not the DWR gets any more money from a single conversation permit versus a single public permit? It is my understanding that the person who purchases a conservation permit still has to pay the DWR the normal price of the permit, correct? The conservation groups keep the auction funds, but the DWR doesn’t get any more than the normal price the permit, if I’m not mistaken? The link you shared is interesting, but I don’t think it answered my question, at least not directly. My whole point was that the DWR obviously relies on the sale of many public permits to keep the lights on, but I can see how my comments could be taken the wrong way. I certainly was not trying to defend the allocation of conservation permits.
 
OK, I'm willing to discuss the issue on a tag by tag basis and if you are correct, I'll give you the credit for you are entitled to. Fair enough? Give me a few minutes to find a few tags that are common to both scenerios.
 
I think you misunderstood my question and comment. My question was whether or not the DWR gets any more money from a single conversation permit versus a single public permit? It is my understanding that the person who purchases a conservation permit still has to pay the DWR the normal price of the permit, correct? The conservation groups keep the auction funds, but the DWR doesn’t get any more than the normal price the permit, if I’m not mistaken? The link you shared is interesting, but I don’t think it answered my question, at least not directly. My whole point was that the DWR obviously relies on the sale of many public permits to keep the lights on, but I can see how my comments could be taken the wrong way. I certainly was not trying to defend the allocation of conservation permits.
If a person buys a Conservation Tag it's really a voucher, they still buy the permit from the DWR. So the DWR still gets their $513 for the sheep tag, for example.

My understanding is that the Conservation Group has to spend 90% of the proceeds on wildlife/habitat, but gets to keep the remaining 10% for their profit. Am I mistaken?
 
I think you misunderstood my question and comment. My question was whether or not the DWR gets any more money from a single conversation permit versus a single public permit? It is my understanding that the person who purchases a conservation permit still has to pay the DWR the normal price of the permit, correct? The conservation groups keep the auction funds, but the DWR doesn’t get any more than the normal price the permit, if I’m not mistaken? The link you shared is interesting, but I don’t think it answered my question, at least not directly. My whole point was that the DWR obviously relies on the sale of many public permits to keep the lights on, but I can see how my comments could be taken the wrong way. I certainly was not trying to defend the allocation of conservation permits.
If a person buys a Conservation Tag it's really a voucher, they still buy the permit from the DWR. So the DWR still gets their $513 for the sheep tag, for example.

My understanding is that the Conservation Group has to spend 90% of the proceeds on wildlife/habitat, but gets to keep the remaining 10% for their profit. Am I mistaken?
Almost correct......there is no "profit".
 
Sorry I took so long, I went to church.

Touche! You are correct (sort of (-: ) In fact, on a tag to tag basis, the Expo tags and the public draw tags aren't even close! But it's the other way around than what I thought. The individual Expo tags blow the individual public tags out of the water!!!!! Kudos!

I took the info from the 2018 results because I didn't want to include ANY Covid tainting. I added the public resident and nonresident tag and application numbers together because that's the way it is in the Expo draw. The results:
1) Henry Mtns Buck Deer AW-----Expo- $16,093----DWR-$2,649
2) Vernon Buck Deer AW------------"----- $1,500---- "---- $195
3) Panguitch Lake Bull Elk AW-------"---- $4,224------"---- $321
4) Pine Valley Pronghorn AW--------"------ $883------"----- $51
5) Newfoundland RM Ram----------"--- $10,750 -----"----$799
6) Wasatch/Cent Mtns Moose------"---- $11,795 -----"--$2,363

This provides me with some new insight regarding the value of the LE and OIL tags to the DWR's efforts. I can see why they like this program and the Conservation Program.

But, I'll have to admit, the money isn't the only concern I have with the DWR and these Programs, but I'll save that for another thread! Thanks for the challenge.!
 
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If a person buys a Conservation Tag it's really a voucher, they still buy the permit from the DWR. So the DWR still gets their $513 for the sheep tag, for example.

My understanding is that the Conservation Group has to spend 90% of the proceeds on wildlife/habitat, but gets to keep the remaining 10% for their profit. Am I mistaken?
10 percent of auction revenue stays with the organization that helps sell the tag to cover administrative expenses. Thirty percent goes to the state wildlife agency (in Utah, that’s the Division of Wildlife Resources, or DWR) for surveys, research and management. The remaining 60 percent stays with the non-profit that auctioned the tag, but the balance must all be spent on projects approved by the DWR.
 
Almost correct......there is no "profit".
Okay, since they're non-profit they just find somewhere to spend the money. (Remember, IHC is a nonprofit, too. But I think we can all agree they make a ton of money.)

Is there any rule that says it doesn't go to executive wages, for example? What's an "administrative expense" and who says where that goes?

It seems to me once those funds are released to the group without strings attached, there is no way to know how it's spent.

Aren't there some states that don't give the 10% "administrative expense" money to the group and require 100% go to conservation projects?
 
Okay, since they're non-profit they just find somewhere to spend the money. (Remember, IHC is a nonprofit, too. But I think we can all agree they make a ton of money.)

Is there any rule that says it doesn't go to executive wages, for example? What's an "administrative expense" and who says where that goes?

It seems to me once those funds are released to the group without strings attached, there is no way to know how it's spent.

Aren't there some states that don't give the 10% "administrative expense" money to the group and require 100% go to conservation projects?
With all due respect, I did post the MDF's financials and private entity audit on another post.
They can be easily accessed on their website
 
With all due respect, I did post the MDF's financials and private entity audit on another post.
They can be easily accessed on their website
I take it you think that it gives a clear picture of where all the funds gained through the sale of public assets went.

I don't know where the millions in wages went, or the three quarters of a million in "corporate, professional fees, and miscellaneous" money went.

I've made it clear I do not believe there is an issue with MDF, but those financials don't give a clear and full understanding of where all the money goes
 
With all due respect, I made it clear that I don't think MDF is a problem, but those financials had millions in wages, and three quarters of a million in "corporate" & "Miscellaneous" & "professional fees" categories. What does that even mean?

I will say again that I do not believe there is anything untoward going on with MDF, but the financials provided in no way give a full accounting of the use of funds gained through the sale of public assets.
Well I don't know all the details myself, but the outside auditors find no fowl play or discrepancies.
I cannot even fathom the costs of miscellaneous items that I see us use at dozens of banquets alone......nor do I put any question towards it.
 
Well I don't know all the details myself, but the outside auditors find no fowl play or discrepancies.
I cannot even fathom the costs of miscellaneous items that I see us use at dozens of banquets alone......nor do I put any question towards it.
I would think those miscellaneous items used at the banquets would be accounted for in the $3MM allocated for "banquets" and not under the $334k in "miscellaneous" but that kind of proves my point. We just don't know enough looking at those financials.
 
SFW continues to use their "proceeds" to buy outfitting operations in AK and Canada. Maybe other locations I haven't heard about.

I haven't figured out how owning an outfitting camp contributes to "conservation", but I am pretty sure it makes it easier to take influential people hunting. Or to make more money raffling sheep tags.

Bill
 
What a freaking joke. Hell let’s just sell all the tags, look at all the money they could put back into wildlife. The good old days are gone. Now if you don’t have money then your sol.
 
This can't be true tristate said only 1% of Tage are taken out of the draws!

All res and non res are getting screwed!!!
 
These handful of rhetorical threads about Conservation dollars have gotten so intertwined that i cannot recall where or who asked why Kuiu bought the new strain of sheep on Antelope Island instead of Expo auction dollars.

Well, according to this article by Kuiu themselves, because they simply wanted to ?‍♂️
Screenshot_20220221-202938_Chrome.jpg
 
I heard the sheep aren’t doing very good Is that right?
Honestly I haven't heard anything negative, but I'm not in the sheep loop.
I've done a couple transplants up there, it was fun but I'm too poor to be in the sheep world, so I don't let myself get too attached. Lol
 
SFW continues to use their "proceeds" to buy outfitting operations in AK and Canada. Maybe other locations I haven't heard about.

I haven't figured out how owning an outfitting camp contributes to "conservation", but I am pretty sure it makes it easier to take influential people hunting. Or to make more money raffling sheep tags.

Bill
Bill,
Did you bother doing the research on this statement because it's untrue and just more drivel spewed.
I know where the "proceeds" came from for Arctic red.

Zeke
 
I heard the sheep aren’t doing very good Is that right?
Honestly I haven't heard anything negative, but I'm not in the sheep loop.
I've done a couple transplants up there, it was fun but I'm too poor to be in the sheep world, so I don't let myself get too attached. Lol
There was a post somewhere that they cancelled the shed hunt due to some issues with the sheep.

Bunch of BS
Screenshot_20220218-190919_Chrome.jpg
 
Bill,
Did you bother doing the research on this statement because it's untrue and just more drivel spewed.
I know where the "proceeds" came from for Arctic red.

Zeke
Zeke,
I'm sure you will enlighten us all with your inside knowledge.
I was very surprised to hear the Eagle Pass lodge was acquired by SFW, which I learned directly from the manager of the operation.

I don't understand how buying ANY outfitting business is an appropriate business decision for a legitimate CONSERVATION organization. Even if one were to presume the business was donated to SFW, they should sell the operation and use the proceeds directly for conservation efforts.

We all know a dollar in SFW's pocket from a tag auction, expo admission, banquet, or membership fee is entirely fungible, and there is no way to tell one dollar from the next.

I'm not trying to distinguish one dollar from the next, and if you are then you are missing the point.

Why don't you enlighten us with all the other outfitters owned by SFW?

Bill
 
Email your WB members and express your concerns over the tag allotment programs if you don't like it and or don't understand it.

If your not willing to put a shovel in your hands or donate your time or money into actually doing something for wildlife that these tags pay for, then gather in masses to get them revoked and reinstated back to the general draw where they'll make thousands versus millions and let's all complain that the DWR isn't doing enough.

Go ahead and try to crucify me, I'm used to it.
I'll focus my energy on the 400 people that will be at my banquet in 3 weeks supporting conservation versus the 15 on here that don't.

I've wasted enough of my time and resources showing you where these conservation dollars go that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Try actually DOING something versus complaining on the forums, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ?‍♂️
They Generate all these funds in the name of conservation, So things should be getting better across the state . They are not getting better they are getting worse. The definition of Conservation is Preservation, protection, or restoration of a resource. All of our resources are declining in Utah and the entire west. The system is obviously broken and $$$$$ driven. Wake up! Listen to all of the Data that you talk about on here and you will prove yourself wrong.
 
They Generate all these funds in the name of conservation, So things should be getting better across the state . They are not getting better they are getting worse. The definition of Conservation is Preservation, protection, or restoration of a resource. All of our resources are declining in Utah and the entire west. The system is obviously broken and $$$$$ driven. Wake up! Listen to all of the Data that you talk about on here and you will prove yourself wrong.
And you are doing what to help again??

Your profile name sums it up....nevermind.
 
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I Watch my Donations and efforts wasted, by people that are brainwashed like you!
It's all good, I won't put you down for our Nebo burn scar restoration project planting, reseeding and building new guzzlers.

I do hope you kill another muley this fall though ?
 
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