The UT Draw

Point systems are the perfect example of a pyramid scheme. I would give up all my points in NV, UT, AZ, MT, WY and CO if they would go to a random draw like Idaho or NM. Fortunately most hunters are starting to realize how point systems are bad for them and NM and Idaho will continue to have significant resistance against point systems.
I use the same strategy as Marley and apply for 40+ tags per year. Most years I get one surprise tag that I didn't expect to draw.
 
Wait, I never considered this because I knew residents of Utah can only apply for 1 LE and 1 OIL; but as an NR I'd always assumed they can buy points for the species they don't apply for. Apparently that's incorrect??? So as a resident of Idaho I get 5 bonus points a year more than a Utah resident? And there doesn't appear to be anything stopping me from moving to Utah in 20 years and utilizing my then 30 points in all species? Utah's system seems to be waayyyyy worse than I thought, for Utah residents anyway.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Wait, I never considered this because I knew residents of Utah can only apply for 1 LE and 1 OIL; but as an NR I'd always assumed they can buy points for the species they don't apply for. Apparently that's incorrect??? So as a resident of Idaho I get 5 bonus points a year more than a Utah resident? And there doesn't appear to be anything stopping me from moving to Utah in 20 years and utilizing my then 30 points in all species? Utah's system seems to be waayyyyy worse than I thought, for Utah residents anyway.
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What's funny about Utah's non-resident is everybody puts in for all the tags for all species so it's just a big money maker no one's getting ahead unless you plan on moving here
 
Deerlove said:
What's funny about Utah's non-resident is everybody puts in for all the tags for all species so it's just a big money maker no one's getting ahead unless you plan on moving here
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That would be a nice retirement strategy for some of us. I'll have 30+ points for everything when I'm 60 and could retire. I should be able to get at least a couple quality tags with all those points. I wouldn't be surprised if Utah and other states decided to put some kind of restriction on "new residents" from using their points and jumping to the front of the line.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Well I could be wrong but looking at the 2021 points break downs there was one resident in all the OIL pools with 28 points and there were two non residents. There are only four ways to take that: 1) people didn't buy points for all species(unlikely) 2) only three people bought points the first year(doubt it) 3) everyone else died before drawing all OIL(some probably did) 4) everyone who started the first year(and didn't die) has drawn all their OILs or will shortly. Unfortunately in 18 years when I get to 28 points there will be dozens and probably hundreds in the pool still instead of 3. And for the kids behind me, after 28 years there will be thousands in their pool. This is how a pyramid scheme works.
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I think I read your original comment wrong.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Wait, I never considered this because I knew residents of Utah can only apply for 1 LE and 1 OIL; but as an NR I'd always assumed they can buy points for the species they don't apply for. Apparently that's incorrect??? So as a resident of Idaho I get 5 bonus points a year more than a Utah resident? And there doesn't appear to be anything stopping me from moving to Utah in 20 years and utilizing my then 30 points in all species? Utah's system seems to be waayyyyy worse than I thought, for Utah residents anyway.
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Yep. I don't agree with this. Should be pick your species like a residence. Could benefit the few that move in later years to Utah and have all those points for all species.

However, my wife currently has 27 points for moose and still is not a shoe in for a moose in the unit she puts in. Drop a couple points and add several hundred more applicants with those point numbers.

Best bet is put in every where you hope to hunt and hopefully draw a tag or two a year.

Even Idaho is slim odds for a non residence. Put in for years for elk and never drawn, but have to buy a $185.00 liecense just to even put in. May be random, but still getting their money up front for very slim draw odds.
 
SlinginLead said:
On a similar post in the Elk Forum, I complained that the non-resident was getting screwed again, and we are, especially for those with a boat load of points. Airborne replied like he was butt-shot. He went on to say I should "just go hunting" and quit my crying. Like many others, my frustration lies in the fact that no bonus early rifle tags exist in most of the units. When I heard that more hunts were being proposed this year, I figured it meant some bonus round hunts. But still, that is not the case. Those new hunts are mid-season hunts. When I first started applying for Elk in Utah, back in 1982, I was focused on the Monroe unit, since I had hunted Mule deer there for the first time and saw giant Elk. For the first 8-10 years in was all random draws, until the state went with a bonus point system. I started playing that game too, hoping to get lucky someday and draw a tag. But when SFW got involved with Fish & Game, there went the bonus draw for Monroe. I primarily stuck with Monroe, since I was so familiar with the unit, having hunted deer there 12-15 times over the years. Occasionally, I would flip to the Filmore/Pahvant, but lady luck never looked down on me. When I first applied, I had two young kids; now I have 3 grandkids. Over those years, I have had my fair share of medical issues to deal with. Last year I could only put in for points due to a 3rd back surgery and being at the tail end of dealing with Prostate cancer. So, each year it gets harder and harder, physically. My dream is to hunt Elk, in the rut, with a rifle, in a premium unit, but Utah has made it next to impossible, unless I head to Salt Lake City with a suitcase full of cash, and by and auction tag. I have 27 points going in for this year's draw, and still no real chance at the Monroe or the Pavant. Time is getting short. I think I will go cry Airborne a river again.
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Wtf according to the dwr site you would have drawn last year with 26 points. Which is what you would have had last year if you now have 27 points. Something doesn't add up
 
I plan on moving back to Utah for retirement job. I really like southern Utah and would enjoy living in the state again. My points would automatically get me a decent deer tag, an elk tag and a sheep tag. My moose points however would be just as worthless as a resident as a non resident.
 
Make everyone front tag fees to apply and no CC apps. Half NR will drop out. No rut hunts except bow. More bow tags, less gun. Bow success is lower, more tags issued per animal taken alloqs more tags.

CC apps and not fronting tag fees kills attracted a lot of new NR apps.

Do everything possible to increase game populations.
 
DonVathome said:
Make everyone front tag fees to apply and no CC apps. Half NR will drop out. No rut hunts except bow. More bow tags, less gun. Bow success is lower, more tags issued per animal taken alloqs more tags.

CC apps and not fronting tag fees kills attracted a lot of new NR apps.

Do everything possible to increase game populations.
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Auction 100% of tags to the highest bidder.
 
30plus said:
Wtf according to the dwr site you would have drawn last year with 26 points. Which is what you would have had last year if you now have 27 points. Something doesn't add up
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Really quite simple, my back was so bad, I had to have back surgery (#3), so I put in for a bonus point last year. But even with 27 points, I will never get drawn for the Monroe unit, since they haven't had a bonus round since SFW got their sticky fingers involved with Fish & Game. So this year I will apply for a mid-tier unit. I can't keep playing the points game.....I'm getting to old!
 
BrianID said:
Fortunately most hunters are starting to realize how point systems are bad for them and NM and Idaho will continue to have significant resistance against point systems.
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Which is precisely why many of us cannot draw our home states anymore!!!!

And I'm not talking about a point state, I'm talking about one of the two you listed above.

The more hunters that "realize" this and understand they are not penalized for starting late, the worse it becomes for everyone vying for one of their tags. Eventually, you will have the same tag frequency as a point state.

The whole notion of "well, at least I have an equal chance every year" or "I'd rather sit out for xx years by not drawing with an equal chance than be forced to sit out building points" is such a farce...
 
Utah400Elk said:
I plan on moving back to Utah for retirement job. I really like southern Utah and would enjoy living in the state again. My points would automatically get me a decent deer tag, an elk tag and a sheep tag. My moose points however would be just as worthless as a resident as a non resident.
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I am returning soon and we are getting a travel trailer. Thought about moving to Utah for a couple years….but got too many connections to Texas.
 
roadrunner said:
Which is precisely why many of us cannot draw our home states anymore!!!!

And I'm not talking about a point state, I'm talking about one of the two you listed above.

The more hunters that "realize" this and understand they are not penalized for starting late, the worse it becomes for everyone vying for one of their tags. Eventually, you will have the same tag frequency as a point state.

The whole notion of "well, at least I have an equal chance every year" or "I'd rather sit out for xx years by not drawing with an equal chance than be forced to sit out building points" is such a farce...
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This is bs. Idaho limits NR tags to 10% max. The reason it's hard for residents to draw in Idaho is simple: There are more residents!!!

When my dad started hunting there were 500k people, when I started there were 1 million, now it's pushing 2 million. The non residents are now the residents.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
This is bs. Idaho limits NR tags to 10% max. The reason it's hard for residents to draw in Idaho is simple: There are more residents!!!

When my dad started hunting there were 500k people, when I started there were 1 million, now it's pushing 2 million. The non residents are now the residents.
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Who said I was talking about ID :ROFLMAO:

Pay attention this time: the more people that apply unpenalized keeps increasing every year the more that motormouths keep advertising it. Proportional increase of R's and NR's when they know they have nothing to lose coming to the table late.

Really not that difficult to understand...
 
roadrunner said:
Who said I was talking about ID :ROFLMAO:

Pay attention this time: the more people that apply unpenalized keeps increasing every year the more that motormouths keep advertising it. Proportional increase of R's and NR's when they know they have nothing to lose coming to the table late.

Really not that difficult to understand...
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"New Mexico’s big game drawing is subject to a quota system. In accordance with state law, the draw attempts to distribute a minimum of 84 percent of the licenses for each hunt to New Mexico residents, 10 percent to residents or nonresidents who’ve contracted with an outfitter and 6 percent to nonresidents who have not contracted with an outfitter (this does not prohibit nonresidents in the 6 percent pool from contracting with an outfitter if they are lucky in the draw)."

16% of tags is 16% of tags regardless how many non-residents apply. So no matter how many more motormouths apply, they'll still draw the same number of tags from the pool.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
"New Mexico’s big game drawing is subject to a quota system. In accordance with state law, the draw attempts to distribute a minimum of 84 percent of the licenses for each hunt to New Mexico residents, 10 percent to residents or nonresidents who’ve contracted with an outfitter and 6 percent to nonresidents who have not contracted with an outfitter (this does not prohibit nonresidents in the 6 percent pool from contracting with an outfitter if they are lucky in the draw)."

16% of tags is 16% of tags regardless how many non-residents apply. So no matter how many more motormouths apply, they'll still draw the same number of tags from the pool.
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You really don't know how NM runs its draw, and it shows.
 
roadrunner said:
Which is precisely why many of us cannot draw our home states anymore!!!!

And I'm not talking about a point state, I'm talking about one of the two you listed above.

The more hunters that "realize" this and understand they are not penalized for starting late, the worse it becomes for everyone vying for one of their tags. Eventually, you will have the same tag frequency as a point state.

The whole notion of "well, at least I have an equal chance every year" or "I'd rather sit out for xx years by not drawing with an equal chance than be forced to sit out building points" is such a farce...
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Everywhere is getting more difficult to draw. Getting any tag, let a lone a quality tag is more difficult than it was in 2003. In 1983 it was easier than 2003. In 1963, it was easier than 1983. My guess is that by 2043 it will be much more difficult than it is now.

I hope you are smart enough to not want a point system in NM. I've drawn a deer tag in NM 8 out of the last 9 years. If there were points in NM, I would not have been able to draw as many deer tags.

I don't think point systems are beneficial to avid hunters like me that want to hunt every year for several reasons.

Point systems encourage more hunters to apply every year than random draw systems. There are many half hearted hunters that don't apply for tags some years. If there was a point system in place, they would be more likely to apply every year to get their point. Points are also bought for children, wives, brothers and others who don't have much interest in hunting. It is really simple math, the more people that apply, the lower your odds. Having more applicants is great for the states budget but the extra cost of point systems comes out of hunters pockets.
 
BrianID said:
Everywhere is getting more difficult to draw. Getting any tag, let a lone a quality tag is more difficult than it was in 2003. In 1983 it was easier than 2003. In 1963, it was easier than 1983. My guess is that by 2043 it will be much more difficult than it is now.

I hope you are smart enough to not want a point system in NM. I've drawn a deer tag in NM 8 out of the last 9 years. If there were points in NM, I would not have been able to draw as many deer tags.

I don't think point systems are beneficial to avid hunters like me that want to hunt every year for several reasons.

Point systems encourage more hunters to apply every year than random draw systems. There are many half hearted hunters that don't apply for tags some years. If there was a point system in place, they would be more likely to apply every year to get their point. Points are also bought for children, wives, brothers and others who don't have much interest in hunting. It is really simple math, the more people that apply, the lower your odds. Having more applicants is great for the states budget but the extra cost of point systems comes out of hunters pockets.
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I don’t care for points nor do I care for random draw. Same amount of tags and same amount of people either way. You just have to know how to play each state’s game. Saying that, this is the best argument I have read why point systems aren’t the answers.
 
BrianID said:
Everywhere is getting more difficult to draw. Getting any tag, let a lone a quality tag is more difficult than it was in 2003. In 1983 it was easier than 2003. In 1963, it was easier than 1983. My guess is that by 2043 it will be much more difficult than it is now.
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We didn't have to draw much in the 80's. No brainer about the rest...

BrianID said:
I hope you are smart enough to not want a point system in NM. I've drawn a deer tag in NM 8 out of the last 9 years. If there were points in NM, I would not have been able to draw as many deer tags.
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I'm smart enough to know what kind of point system would work in NM, nobody wants to even look at it or talk about it, so naturally a point system of any kind would ever work. Of course, someone like you doesn't want a point system with 8 for 9. "I want mine and I want it now", right?

BrianID said:
I don't think point systems are beneficial to avid hunters like me that want to hunt every year for several reasons.
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Simply incorrect. Because of a point system, I'm guaranteed an LE tag in UT every year for the next 3 years and 2 Generals anytime I decide I want them.

If nobody "pool hops", I'll likely pull an antelope tag this year. I've never drawn an antelope tag in NM. Ever. UT may very well give me that opportunity this year where NM fails.

I'm an avid hunter as well. At least I used to be anyway...

BrianID said:
Point systems encourage more hunters to apply every year than random draw systems. There are many half hearted hunters that don't apply for tags some years. If there was a point system in place, they would be more likely to apply every year to get their point.
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Simply not true. It's the half-hearted hunters that know they aren't penalized that are the ones to gravitate towards states with no point systems. Knowing they don't have a shot keeps many of them at bay. One of your post 'likers' even admits to that in ID about the swelling population applying now because they aren't penalized.

BrianID said:
Points are also bought for children, wives, brothers and others who don't have much interest in hunting. It is really simple math, the more people that apply, the lower your odds.
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Dad's put their kids in every year as soon as they can complete a hunters safety course - and guess what - there is no age restriction. If a 6-year-old can pass the course, they can apply. I know of a 6-year-old (then) that has already drawn their OIL Desert BHS tag in NM because of this. Points suppress that surge of new hunters as soon as young'uns come of age...

BrianID said:
Having more applicants is great for the states budget but the extra cost of point systems comes out of hunters pockets.
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Application count in NM has been increasing every year for the past few years. And no, idahomuleyhunter, people aren't moving to NM for hunting opportunity increasing those numbers. Many are new being brought in by "avid's" already here that can't draw so they try to get as many people to apply to take them out just so they can hunt vicariously through that tag.
 
The entirety of your argument is as long as I get to be at the top of the pyramid I like the pyramid scheme. This is what's known as a circular argument. I don't like pyramid schemes and would gladly give up all my points in all the states I have them for random draws everywhere. Someday I hope that the delusional people who think that if they just have the right pyramid scheme it will allow everyone to kill a 400" Valle Vidal bull will wake up and realize that there are just more hunters than the good old days and a better system will require acknowledgement that not everyone will get to go on every hunt. In the mean time we can keep pissing and moaning and giving our money away to game depts.
 
Fronting full tag fees AND no cc's will drop NR apps in half or more in a couple years, seems like, by far, the best fair way to help odds. When states went to CC apps, apps doubled, not fronting full fee also got more NR apps in. This seems like, by far, the best way to help odds. IN CO when NR aps no longer had to front fees and could use a CC I think NR apps quadrupled.
 
Limiting applicants by fronting money would definitely work but it's also a slippery slope. If we can improve odds by forcing people to front money why not improve them a little more by raising the price? Or just auction all tags to the highest bidder? Because whoever can front the most money should win, right?
 
I agree with Don. Fronting the fees is not keeping anyone out of the game who is serious, even those of us with less money. After all, you are simply loaning them the money interest free for 4-6 weeks. If you want to apply in 10 states, for multiple animals, get ready to fork over $thousands. If you can afford to hunt that state that year, you can afford to front the fees. Uh, yes, you will either have to pay the piper or slim it down and apply to the states you have a real chance for and want to hunt that year.

I suggest anyone who applies for a TAG has to front the tag fees. If you want to just get a POINT, you just pay for the point. That way anyone who wants to start building can do so. If that change was made, I suspect Utah apps for a tag would drop at least by half, but no one is excluded who wants to apply in the future. But I bet they would keep roughly the same number of people applying since they can apply for a point for the future.

So I have to stop applying for 10 states and just apply for 1-2 a year. Waaah waaah waaah! Those that can’t afford to front the fee for one state can’t really afford to go hunting. I say this as I am retiring this year and have to cut back on extras.
 
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New Draw System Proposal (kind of a joke): What about a bonus points system (not pref points) that allows you to EITHER (not both) apply for hunts each year (but you don't get a point if you don't draw) OR buy a point. You can't do both. This allows you to strategize and flip flop between applying for hunts or buying points every year. For instance, you can apply for a point for 2 or 5 or 8 or 10 or 14 years straight, then choose to actually apply for a hunt when you're ready. Or you can apply every year for a hunt hoping for a random tag, but you don't get a point if you don't draw. Or you can flip-flop every other year between applying for a hunt or buying a point. Add to this new system the requirement to pay upfront for tag fees if you're applying for a hunt and can't use any credit cards.

It would be interesting to see what strategy people would gravitate toward: applying yearly or buying points for a certain amount of time, then applying. If after 10 years more than 75% of people were going into the draw annually and not buying points then maybe the system is overhauled into strictly a random draw with no points.
 
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idahomuleyhunter said:
Limiting applicants by fronting money would definitely work but it's also a slippery slope. If we can improve odds by forcing people to front money why not improve them a little more by raising the price? Or just auction all tags to the highest bidder? Because whoever can front the most money should win, right?
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True but fronting the $$$$ would make the serious guys apply, tag costs the same either way. Let's be honest there are a ton of apps who would not apply if they had to front because they simply do not care enough to..............
 
IMO you should front tag fees even for a point, look at how many new apps come in when a state stopped doing that - like CO......................

Anyone who really wants the tag will get the $$$$ (they would if they drew with the current system) so it eliminates only the ones who do not really care............

I cringed and watched state after state go from fronting money, to CC apps (sometimes fronting money) to not fronting money, and watched the draw odds tank at each change.

No other 3 suggestion combined will:

1. Keep tag fees the same
2. Not screw any serious applicants
3. Dramatically increase draw odds

All at the same time and, IMO, "fairly" accomplish this.

I am dropping out of a lot of states. I have drawn so many tags - I was aggressive in applying and dedicated $1k a year (20 years ago) got up to $2k recently. Draw odds down, been there done that and old age have been slowly putting out the "fire". I have given this a lot of thought over the years. I feel for newbies and people younger then me. They will spend 4x as much to draw 1/4 the tags in twice the time as I was able to.

I am very very lucky. NM ibex 3x, muzzleloader elk in 52, 15 & 36, ornyx. CO 76 elk, 40 late rifle deer, mnt goat, sheep. NV elk & desert sheep. WY cow bison 2x, sheep, 62 elk twice. AZ 27 elk. To many other so so tags to remember.
 
DonVathome said:
True but fronting the $$$$ would make the serious guys apply, tag costs the same either way. Let's be honest there are a ton of apps who would not apply if they had to front because they simply do not care enough to..............
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It would be good for me. I'm not sure it's good for hunting. Hunting is going to depend on engaged hunters to keep our rights intact.
 
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DonVathome said:
IN CO when NR aps no longer had to front fees and could use a CC I think NR apps quadrupled.
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That flood of CO apps would have been even worse but CPW instituted big point fee costs at the exact same time to alleviate the flood a bit.

Fronting tag fees is archaic and discriminates economically. Only serves to enrich the credit card banks and elitist hunters.

A zero sum game of gifting fees to credit card banks to box out a fellow hunter.
 
DonVathome said:
IMO you should front tag fees even for a point, look at how many new apps come in when a state stopped doing that - like CO......................

Anyone who really wants the tag will get the $$$$ (they would if they drew with the current system) so it eliminates only the ones who do not really care............

I cringed and watched state after state go from fronting money, to CC apps (sometimes fronting money) to not fronting money, and watched the draw odds tank at each change.

No other 3 suggestion combined will:

1. Keep tag fees the same
2. Not screw any serious applicants
3. Dramatically increase draw odds

All at the same time and, IMO, "fairly" accomplish this.

I am dropping out of a lot of states. I have drawn so many tags - I was aggressive in applying and dedicated $1k a year (20 years ago) got up to $2k recently. Draw odds down, been there done that and old age have been slowly putting out the "fire". I have given this a lot of thought over the years. I feel for newbies and people younger then me. They will spend 4x as much to draw 1/4 the tags in twice the time as I was able to.

I am very very lucky. NM ibex 3x, muzzleloader elk in 52, 15 & 36, ornyx. CO 76 elk, 40 late rifle deer, mnt goat, sheep. NV elk & desert sheep. WY cow bison 2x, sheep, 62 elk twice. AZ 27 elk. To many other so so tags to remember.
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States won’t do that. They will lose too much money. The horse already left the barn. No going back. My way the states lose minimal money and our odds increase.
 
roadrunner said:
I'm smart enough to know what kind of point system would work in NM, nobody wants to even look at it or talk about it, so naturally a point system of any kind would ever work. Of course, someone like you doesn't want a point system with 8 for 9. "I want mine and I want it now", right?

Simply incorrect. Because of a point system, I'm guaranteed an LE tag in UT every year for the next 3 years and 2 Generals anytime I decide I want them.

If nobody "pool hops", I'll likely pull an antelope tag this year. I've never drawn an antelope tag in NM. Ever. UT may very well give me that opportunity this year where NM fails.
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If you are smart, you wouldn't want a point system in NM. Your argument sounds like the liberals trying to convince me that their way of Socialism/Communism would actually work after admitting that Socialism/Communism has failed in every country it has been implemented. In my opinion point systems have "failed" in every state that has one. Socialism only works well for the politically connected and point systems only work well for those that get in on the "ground floor" and only want one tag. If NM implemented a point system, you would only draw one more Gila elk tag in your life.

Me drawing a deer tag in NM 8 out of 9 years is good evidence that I know how the draw works. How many Utah tags have you drawn in the last decade? I'm guessing none. I've picked up 8 deer tags and 2 elk tags in NM while you have been sitting on the sidelines in Utah.

Unless you are sitting on max points and don't hold out for top units in Utah, there is no way you will draw a LE tag in Utah in 2023, 2024 and 2025. I would be happy to make a bet with you, if you are so confident the point system in Utah will work in your favor 3 years in a row. Hunters "pool hop" all the time. I'm guessing once you draw your LE tag for elk in Utah, you will never draw another LE elk tag in Utah. Point system can help a persistent hunter get one tag but after burning your points, the point system with mathematically make drawing again very difficult. I'm against point systems because the math proves they will fail to help me draw more tags over the next 30 years.

Point systems absolutely encourage extra applications. I know many people that skip applying in NM every year but those same people still get their "points" in other states. I can think of dozens of residents in Idaho that I know that don't apply for tags most years in Idaho. If Idaho implemented a point system, I can gaurentee you many of those guys would be making sure they get a point every year. If NM started a point system next year, we would see the biggest increase in applicants (resident and especially nonresidents) that we have ever seen. The math isn't complicated, the more applicants that apply (or hold a spot in line with points), the more difficult it will be to draw tags.

You trying to ague that point systems suppress new applicants just proves point systems are "failed experiments" in other states.

With all that said, I wish you luck on drawing tags this year and next. I just hope to convert you to the nonbeliever in point system group.
 
DonVathome said:
IMO you should front tag fees even for a point, look at how many new apps come in when a state stopped doing that - like CO......................

Anyone who really wants the tag will get the $$$$ (they would if they drew with the current system) so it eliminates only the ones who do not really care............

I cringed and watched state after state go from fronting money, to CC apps (sometimes fronting money) to not fronting money, and watched the draw odds tank at each change.

No other 3 suggestion combined will:

1. Keep tag fees the same
2. Not screw any serious applicants
3. Dramatically increase draw odds

All at the same time and, IMO, "fairly" accomplish this.

I am dropping out of a lot of states. I have drawn so many tags - I was aggressive in applying and dedicated $1k a year (20 years ago) got up to $2k recently. Draw odds down, been there done that and old age have been slowly putting out the "fire". I have given this a lot of thought over the years. I feel for newbies and people younger then me. They will spend 4x as much to draw 1/4 the tags in twice the time as I was able to.

I am very very lucky. NM ibex 3x, muzzleloader elk in 52, 15 & 36, ornyx. CO 76 elk, 40 late rifle deer, mnt goat, sheep. NV elk & desert sheep. WY cow bison 2x, sheep, 62 elk twice. AZ 27 elk. To many other so so tags to remember.
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Another example of how point systems have "failed". Just like socialism, point systems can work well for a few years. You have to look at the long term consequences of point systems and socialism to realize why they are a bad idea.
 
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txhunter58 said:
States won’t do that. They will lose too much money. The horse already left the barn. No going back. My way the states lose minimal money and our odds increase.
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I think you are correct. At least some states like AZ actually admit when they implement something, it is to generate money.

conservationfirstusa.org

Homepage - Conservation First USA

Conservation First USA is a non-profit organization launched by volunteer sportsmen and women that raises funds to improve and restore wildlife habitat in the Southwest.
conservationfirstusa.org conservationfirstusa.org
 
We could also increase resident prices by 10X and nonresident prices by 10X and that would also improve our odds of drawing. Then only the "serious hunters" would be competing for tags.

Requiring hunters to front money to decrease applications will just benefit those with bigger wallets. Even though it would benefit me if Colorado, Arizona and Utah required hunters to front money for their applications, I don't like seeing hunting becoming more and more of a rich mans sport.
 
I actually think it might be somewhat of a disadvantage to “the rich”. They are truly the ones who put in for every state and every animal. AND, they are the ones that can actually go on any hunt they draw. There are more of them than you might think and they prob have a service do the apps. But if they had to come up with $15,000-20,000 every year to do that, it might even give them pause. Not the truly rich. Just the pretty rich, like me and Brian ?
 
Breakdown of the arguments against random draws:

1. I'm older and people younger than me don't deserve to hunt
2. I have more money so we should charge more so people with less money than me can't hunt.
3. I'm older and have money so let's make people front money for tags so they never get into the pyramid.

There's one equitable way, one LE or OIL draw per state per year. States that don't do this(I think Idaho is the only one, Utah kind of does) would see their odds go up 5x the first year. God forbid people don't get to limit out on OILs in every state. Que arguments 1 thru 3 now...........
 
Older and richer has nothing to do with it. But if I am forced to spend more than $100 each year to apply and I put in for 30 years, I think I should have some preference over a guy who puts it for the first time. Whether he is 12 or 75

If a 65 yr old man and a 12 year old boy both put in for the first time, then they should be equal. Heck, Colorado gives lots and lots of tags to youth that adults don’t have any chance to draw. and their secondary draw gives 100% to youth for all 4 choices. Before an adult gets a shot at a tag.
 
DonVathome said:
IMO you should front tag fees even for a point, look at how many new apps come in when a state stopped doing that - like CO......................

Anyone who really wants the tag will get the $$$$ (they would if they drew with the current system) so it eliminates only the ones who do not really care............

I cringed and watched state after state go from fronting money, to CC apps (sometimes fronting money) to not fronting money, and watched the draw odds tank at each change.

No other 3 suggestion combined will:

1. Keep tag fees the same
2. Not screw any serious applicants
3. Dramatically increase draw odds

All at the same time and, IMO, "fairly" accomplish this.

I am dropping out of a lot of states. I have drawn so many tags - I was aggressive in applying and dedicated $1k a year (20 years ago) got up to $2k recently. Draw odds down, been there done that and old age have been slowly putting out the "fire". I have given this a lot of thought over the years. I feel for newbies and people younger then me. They will spend 4x as much to draw 1/4 the tags in twice the time as I was able to.

I am very very lucky. NM ibex 3x, muzzleloader elk in 52, 15 & 36, ornyx. CO 76 elk, 40 late rifle deer, mnt goat, sheep. NV elk & desert sheep. WY cow bison 2x, sheep, 62 elk twice. AZ 27 elk. To many other so so tags to remember.
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You had a good life.
 
In spite of the fact that we are spiking out west in numbers of hunters, we are eventually headed for less hunters in the future. The current spike is partly due to all us baby boomers getting older, retiring and having more time to hunt more than one state.

That said, we are losing numbers of youth starting to hunt. So I am more than ok with giving youth preference at certain levels. Heck I take new hunters on their first hunt almost every year. But if I have been applying for a hunt that gives only 1 or 2 tags per year for 30 years, I should get some form or preference.
 
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txhunter58 said:
In spite of the fact that we are spiking in numbers of hunters, we are eventually headed for less hunters in the future. The current spike is partly due to all us baby boomers getting older, retiring and having more time to hunt more than one state.

That said, we are losing numbers of youth starting to hunt. So I am more than ok with giving youth preference at certain levels. Heck I take new hunters on their first hunt almost every year. But if I have been applying for a hunt that gives only 1 or 2 tags per year for 30 years, I should get some form or preference.
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Why? And to what degree is that preference determined? New Mexico had 13,185 people apply for 108 sheep licenses. If New Mexico started a preference system tomorrow it would take 122 years to clear the que, disregarding anyone who comes along in the future. So how are you going to dole out the preference in a fair manner? I'm sure you'd be at the top.
 


I took a friend and his son hunting this past December. The successful hunter was 8 and this was his first buck of any species. It doesn’t get much better than that.
 
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idahomuleyhunter said:
Why? And to what degree is that preference determined? New Mexico had 13,185 people apply for 108 sheep licenses. If New Mexico started a preference system tomorrow it would take 122 years to clear the que, disregarding anyone who comes along in the future. So how are you going to dole out the preference in a fair manner? I'm sure you'd be at the top.
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If you think that you don’t know me at all

Why should a newbie have to wait? It’s called waiting your turn. Been doing it since I could talk. I thought “ME NOW” was a millennial thing
 
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txhunter58 said:
When you go somewhere with your kid and there is a line with parents and kids, do you try to go to the front of the line because you have as much right to be first as they do?
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This is idiotic logic. The point is the vast majority of people will never clear the que. So waiting your turn is asinine. Wait for what? Sure I'll get in line and wait my turn, gladly. When will my turn come? Oh never... Well it's a good thing I pay taxes and license fees so the guy who was born first can hunt and I never will. He wants it more of course, because he was born first. Unfortunately hunting in this country is rapidly headed to a pay to play system and it's because of attitudes like yours. Price people out and exclusion are the only things you can come up with. Doesn't really bother me, but it will ruin hunting in the end. Personally, I'd rather see what's best for the most people, which is random draws. And no that's not necessarily best for me.
 
Airborne said:
@SlinginLead A quick check and I'm betting you would have a great chance at drawing these early rifle hunts as they have at least one bonus point tag for your 27 points:

Manti
LaSal
Fish Lake
SW Desert
Wasatch

All great units! The early rifle hunt is going to have a lot less people on the mountain this year which should make for a more enjoyable hunt, less competition!

Tons of great bulls on these units. If I could draw one of these early hunts this year I would in a heartbeat!

I wouldn't consider any of the above hunts as settling. I bet a hard charging guy like yourself could dig up a 350" bull on the Manti or Wasatch with most of the competition being gone and I doubt you would find better bull on any previous year on the Monroe.

Cash in those points my man! Go have a great hunt. Tomorrow is not guaranteed!
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Yep. Got tired of SFW’s never ending stealing of NR tags and decided to bump my buddy, who wanted to archery hunt one of those units and is right on the edge, with my 23 points. I’m very much looking forward to a few weeks in September hunting with a friend.
 
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txhunter58 said:
View attachment 109282

I took a friend and his son hunting this past December. The successful hunter was 8 and this was his first buck of any species. It doesn’t get much better than that.
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He better spend the rest of his life in Texas shooting fenced animals.

Because that 8 year old would get crushed by you in Utah with all your entitlement points.

Your arguments FOR true preference points are 100% adverse to that young man's future. But works for you of course.
 
Crampy said:
He better spend the rest of his life in Texas shooting fenced animals.

Because that 8 year old would get crushed by you in Utah with all your entitlement points.

Your arguments FOR true preference points are 100% adverse to that young man's future. But works for you of course.
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Don’t speak when you have no idea what you are talking about. We have a ranch that my grandad bought in 1908 and will NEVER have high fences. Axis deer jump fences.

Not a canned hunt! He hunted 5 days last year and got a doe only.

Doubt that 8 year old can even hunt in Utah yet. He can’t in Colorado, which is why I let him hunt down here. And he will have a chance at a tag the first year he can put in for Utah.
 
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Crampy said:
That flood of CO apps would have been even worse but CPW instituted big point fee costs at the exact same time to alleviate the flood a bit.

Fronting tag fees is archaic and discriminates economically. Only serves to enrich the credit card banks and elitist hunters.

A zero sum game of gifting fees to credit card banks to box out a fellow hunter.
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No, I say no CC aps at all, mail in a cashiers check.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Limiting applicants by fronting money would definitely work but it's also a slippery slope. If we can improve odds by forcing people to front money why not improve them a little more by raising the price? Or just auction all tags to the highest bidder? Because whoever can front the most money should win, right?
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You're not as smart as you think you are. NM has increasing app numbers every year where ALL tag fees are charged ahead instead of after.

So, sorry Jack. It definitely doesn't work.
 
I like the system here in Idaho, the best odds for OIL because they make you choose between OIl and the rest, and everyone has the same odds, lots of luck involved but that's how life is. I also like Nevada, anyone can draw, and no one is guaranteed, but your odds are lots better if you have been trying a long time, every other system is more or less a pyramid scheme, except NM, but I really don't like how they give so much preference to the guided pool, I have several people I know and they use "guides" to better the odds but there is no guiding going on once they do, just $400 or more bucks going to someone scaming the system
 
roadrunner said:
Well duh. It hasn't decreased it. Data doesn't lie.
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I kind of figured you were full of ****, so I checked. First, you misunderstood what I was saying. I said that it's a slippery slope for the reason you alluded to, it won't wash everyone out, but the temptation will be to keep raising fees until the odds get better. I don't think this is a good way to manage hunting. Second, you tried to mislead us on the NM data. I looked up the last 4 years of draws and checked three species, here's the breakdown on non resident apps by year and species(rounded):
2022 Antelope-2900 Bighorn Sheep- 2100 Deer-9000
2021 Antelope-2800 BH- 2200 Deer- 9000
2020 Antelope-1900 BH-1500 Deer- 6900
2019 Antelope-2300 BH- 1800 Deer- 6500

Interestingly the app that costs $3000 up front to draw, is perennially the lowest in applications. I'm not clairvoyant like you so I don't know why the people who apply for deer and antelope don't front the money. I'd gladly loan $3000 to NM knowing I'll either get it back or get to hunt sheep. But there does seem to be a correlation with the price and applications. They already have the license, the app is only $7 more dollars.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
I kind of figured you were full of ****, so I checked. First, you misunderstood what I was saying. I said that it's a slippery slope for the reason you alluded to, it won't wash everyone out, but the temptation will be to keep raising fees until the odds get better. I don't think this is a good way to manage hunting. Second, you tried to mislead us on the NM data. I looked up the last 4 years of draws and checked three species, here's the breakdown on non resident apps by year and species(rounded):
2022 Antelope-2900 Bighorn Sheep- 2100 Deer-9000
2021 Antelope-2800 BH- 2200 Deer- 9000
2020 Antelope-1900 BH-1500 Deer- 6900
2019 Antelope-2300 BH- 1800 Deer- 6500

Interestingly the app that costs $3000 up front to draw, is perennially the lowest in applications. I'm not clairvoyant like you so I don't know why the people who apply for deer and antelope don't front the money. I'd gladly loan $3000 to NM knowing I'll either get it back or get to hunt sheep. But there does seem to be a correlation with the price and applications. They already have the license, the app is only $7 more dollars.
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Scooter, you're trying really hard, aren't you...

What you posted above shows people don't care about upfronting the full amount, they'll do it full well knowing they'll either get it all back or most of it. Apps increased each year regardless.

Trying to compare a $3k tag against a $280/$370 tag pretending they're the same is not only absurd but clueless. And, not everyone has $3k to blow on a tag. Again, duh...

BHS apps went down in 2020 because of the dumb-ass liberal lockdown policies and people not wanting to chance drawing the tag and not being able to go. Not to mention hours and paychecks cut. Again. Duh...

And no. Fees won't keep getting higher just so your odds will improve.
 
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MrShane said:
But if every state went to that method it would bound to help?
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Not really. I will keep upfronting the fee as a NR in UT full well knowing I only get one tag, either LE or OIL and I'll get the rest back. I have zero interest in hunting ID, WY, MT, AZ, and CO. I'm not the only one that doesn't apply for every western state.

The first year NM made you upfront the full amount, it had somewhat of an impact. Over the next couple of years, people realized all they need to do is get a special CC with a $10k limit, use it solely to apply with, and once they gor their refunds they put the card in the sock drawer and paid off the balance for the one or two tags they drew.

Increeases in app fees will have a larger impact. That's an unrecoverable sunk cost.
 
roadrunner said:
Trying to compare a $3k tag against a $280/$370 tag pretending they're the same is not only absurd but clueless. And, not everyone has $3k to blow on a tag. Again, duh...
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So requiring more up front money doesn't cause people to stay out of the draw, unless it does..... Your logic is sound..... If applicants had to front tag money in every state, they'd be on the hook for 20k plus every spring if they want to hunt all the western states. Now go ahead and prove me right then say I'm wrong.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
So requiring more up front money doesn't cause people to stay out of the draw, unless it does..... Your logic is sound..... If applicants had to front tag money in every state, they'd be on the hook for 20k plus every spring if they want to hunt all the western states. Now go ahead and prove me right then say I'm wrong.
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Your whole base of your argument against the so called pyramid scheme has been the new hunters (kids) are at a disadvantage.
Your suggestion is to make the cost so high what new hunter is going to be able to participate
 
When they stopped requiring up front money in Colorado, the app numbers exploded.

If you can afford the tag May 31, you can afford it in March/April. What it would do is keep people from applying to every state. It’s a limited resource and too many people want tags. It’s not ideal, but if I could apply to 1-2 states and have better odds, I would be Ok with it. It doesn’t prevent “the little guy” from applying due to money.
 
notdonhunting said:
Your whole base of your argument against the so called pyramid scheme has been the new hunters (kids) are at a disadvantage.
Your suggestion is to make the cost so high what new hunter is going to be able to participate
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That's not my suggestion at all. I'm generally against making people front money for tags, especially if you can apply for every species in a state. As txhunter stated about CO and roadrunner so kindly pointed out about NM, making people front a bunch of money definitely reduces people's ability to participate(or the obverse in CO). I have no doubt their ideas would help me, I just don't think it's good to push hunting into a pay to play pastime.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
That's not my suggestion at all. I'm generally against making people front money for tags, especially if you can apply for every species in a state. As txhunter stated about CO and roadrunner so kindly pointed out about NM, making people front a bunch of money definitely reduces people's ability to participate(or the obverse in CO). I have no doubt their ideas would help me, I just don't think it's good to push hunting into a pay to play pastime.
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Sorry misunderstood your position
 
If you really want to see the damage that occurs when you wave the upfront fee look at the flood of applicants for sheep, goat, and moose in Colorado since 2018 when they made that change. Talk about a ball buster for the high point applicants who are now getting severely out drawn
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
That's not my suggestion at all. I'm generally against making people front money for tags, especially if you can apply for every species in a state. As txhunter stated about CO and roadrunner so kindly pointed out about NM, making people front a bunch of money definitely reduces people's ability to participate(or the obverse in CO). I have no doubt their ideas would help me, I just don't think it's good to push hunting into a pay to play pastime.
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I questioned the NM Chairman who at the time was a Dentist as well I think, he said by doing this it keeps the Sierra Club and other left wing organizations from putting in for converted tags like the RMS tags then not using them which made sense. I did complain that the normal NR can’t afford $3,200 for the upfront tag prices!
Was it a good idea? I don’t care anymore because I can afford the Up front fees Mrs Sikora loves me I guess?!
 

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