Tritip has a point.

[wileywapati]

As much as it pains me, the troll is correct. We have issues in Utah
And talk at length about them. I guess to eat an elephant, YA gotta
Get that first fork full in your mouth. So spell out your top three issues
You've got with how things are, we'll get a total and take it to the press
And Division Leadership.

Mine
1 Bonus Points and Conservation Permits. There is no way true biological
Management can occur while these two groups sit at the top of the food chain
You can't do anything to offend a hunter that has been waiting for 20 years for
The hunt of a lifetime or propose anything that would lower the value of these permits.

My proposal would be to start a 5 year phase out of bonus points. This would
Allow those with Max points to get a tag. May not be a Henry's buck tag but that
Would be the applicants choice on where to apply. After that straight luck of the draw. If YA draw two or three years straight, good for you, if ya don't draw, sucks to be you.

Wealth tags would go, allocate 3 statewide permits per region per non OIL species= deer elk pronghorn and so on. Of the three permits, 1 auction, 1 draw
And 1 Raffle. That's right I fricken said Raffle, get over the no raffles in state BS.
This program will be administered by the UT DWR with all funds from these tags
Going into a separate account in full, no 10% commission to ANY Org.
OIL tags stay draw only.


2 Wildlife Board balance. 80% of Utahs hunters live along the Wasatch Front, yet they are constantly outvoted by the other 3 reps. Increase the number of seats so that the majority of Utahs hunters are represented. This will hopefully stop a couple guys writing on napkins in The People's Republic Of Southern Utah from getting an anecdotal deer plan passed or prevent Beaver and Dixie $FW from telling hunters from the north that they ain't welcome south of I-70.
The way the Board is appointed is another story.


3 protect state employees from termination for calling BS when BS needs to be called. Nuff said about that.


Whatcha got??




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012

 

[hossblur]

1. No more us vs. them. No more CWMU or auction system. No more guaranteed tags to ANY group or land holder. No more buying around waiting periods or points. Either we ALL have waiting periods and points, OR NON of us do. Landowners can still sell tresspass fee, and in fact would be a further incentive to them to better their hunting due to competion based on health of herds, rather than availability of tags without the rules the other 90% follow.

2. Any big game plan need 9 previous years of data to support of defeat it. No more changes in the buck bull RAC which takes place while big game hunts are still going in the fall. Science requires data, and not just one years worth.

3. All tags, every single one is sold via the UDWR. The UDWR no longer "gives" away a single solitary tag, and IT collects 100% of the revenue from tag sells, no more skim for the "conservation" groups. The true conservation groups can raffle guns, set up banquets, beg, but no longer are they GIVEN tax dollars(tags). $399,000 for an AI tag gets the DWR $399,000, not the $350 it got after the $fw skim.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[YBO]

SO your saying that SFW received $398,650.00 and the DWR only received $350.00 this year? Something is fugged up or maybe hoss has had too much to drink.

 

[PleaseDear]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-15 AT 03:05AM (MST)[p]Combine the 2 point systems for deer---Pref & Bonus---into Bonus points with the 50/50% rule and have all 5 choices count/use up the points.....

Karen---'Con' Org'$ get to $kim 10% off the top of the tags they sell/auction off.....

'hb' left out a few 000's ($350,000.00)

Robb

 

[hossblur]

>SO your saying that SFW received
>$398,650.00 and the DWR only
>received $350.00 this year? Something
>is fugged up or maybe
>hoss has had too much
>to drink.

My poor typing skills are only exceeded by my chisled abs!
The friggin period and comma are too close together.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[elkfromabove]

Only the top 3 issues? I have so many they're hard to prioritize. But when it comes right down to it, I guess I really only have one that drives all the others and I'm not sure how to fix it!

It's the leverage/power the system gives to the organized groups that are "donating" the most money, regardless of it's source. It doesn't matter much to the RAC's, Wildlife Board, Legislature or Governor how good or bad biologically any proposal is. It only matters who presents it!

Time after time, both publically and privately, I'm asked how much money UWC has "put on the ground", but the conversation usually ends as soon as I tell them we didn't organize to put money "on the ground", but that we organized to speak for sportsmen who felt they haven't had a voice in the system. Fortunately, some have seen that as a good thing, but many of those in power as well as some others have not. They seem to be looking for a well greased, highly organized, politically oriented, outspoken, high profile organization that has something in it for them personally and that's not me or UWC. We're not after the money or the awards or the praise. We just want our voice to matter and we want to make a difference with the wildlife and the general hunting and fishing community.

Will we make a difference? I think we already have! It hasn't been as much as we had hoped and we have struggled getting this group back up and running after some burnout (Ok, maybe just walking at this point.) but we're still around and growing. Don't count us out just yet!

 

[DW]

Wait a minute, help an uninformed coloradoan out. U mean to tell me all the squealin about SFW and all they're gettin is a 10% tip for their efforts and the rest goes to Utah div of wildlife?

 

[nebo12000]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-15 AT 10:18AM (MST)[p]Qoute- Hossblur-- " Landowners can still sell tresspass fee, and in fact would be a further incentive to them to better their hunting due to competion based on health of herds, rather than availability of tags without the rules the other 90% follow."

How much would you be willing to pay them? Would it still be a rich man sport ?

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-15 AT 12:28PM (MST)[p]>Wait a minute, help an uninformed
>coloradoan out. U mean to
>tell me all the squealin
>about SFW and all they're
>gettin is a 10% tip
>for their efforts and the
>rest goes to Utah div
>of wildlife?

That's close! At least for the auctioned permits! They return 30% directly to the UDWR, keeping 60% in a separate fund for UDWR approved projects, and the remaining 10% is for their own use with no strings attached.

The 200 Expo permits are another matter. They generate about $1 million per year in application fees and 30% ($1.50) of each $5 application fee is now kept in a separate fund for UDWR approved projects, while the remaining 70% ($3.50) is kept for their own use with no strings attached.

Now, if that were the end of it, some of us would have no problem with it. Remember, this is money that is generated by the marketing of public assets! However, all those mandated returned funds are touted and viewed as "donations" and, along with the 10% (or 70% Expo) funds kept by the groups, are used as leverage with the media, the public, the RAC's, the Wildlife Board, the UDWR, the Legislature and the Governor to manipulate the system to lock in and further enhance that money and leverage. And it's usually at the expense of the 79% of Utah sportsmen who are not now or never have been affiliated with ANY sportsmen's group, let alone those that use public assets to generate income.

Now, whether or not you agree with that assessment and viewpoint I don't really know, but at least you're now informed and you have a better understanding what the fuss is all about. Many of us realize that the 79%+ are slowly, but surely being pushed out of the game and we're making it known and pushing back!

 

[DW]

Thanx elkfromabove I was hopein there was more to it and now I see there is. Appreciate it.

 

[Zeke]

>The 200 Expo permits are another
>matter. They generate about $1
>million per year in application
>fees and 30% ($1.50) of
>each $5 application fee is
>now kept in a separate
>fund for UDWR approved projects,
>while the remaining 70% ($3.50)
>is kept for their own
>use with no strings attached.
>


If you're trying to educate the uninformed you must also add that the F&G gets 100% of the (200 expo) tag fee just like they would in any other F&G tag distribution.
Conveniently folks who are anti-expo tags leave that little nugget out of the equation.

Zeke

 

[DW]

And these "expo tags", are they raffled off with the proceeds exceeding the usual tag fee going to sfw?

 

[DW]

Having reread the post I see the "app fee" Is the revenue generator.

 

[Deerlove]

The tag fees are peanuts compared to the app fee, I would guess 1 percent of the $ generated is the tag fees.

 

[Muley_73]

DW,
If you came to Utah you would see the Expo growing every year, the 17 SFW banquets selling out across the state every year and an organized group working to make a difference for the good in Utah. You read the interweb and you will find a handful of haters claiming to represent the state. Yet they never show up to meetings, they never really organize and they never present real solutions. They claim to be the voice of the average joe, but the average joe in Utah doesn't really care enough to be heard. Look at the UWC, they are at best an absentee Facebook page. Maybe just maybe the voice of the engaged and understanding average joe sportsman is the SFW? They sure seem to get A LOT more real support than the other groups in Utah. SFW is not perfect but they are also not the evil empire that some would lead you to believe. The truth is 90% plus of there membership could probably never afford a conservation tag or high dollar auction tag, yet they still support, they still show up to baquets and expos, they help with wildlife and fish projects, they show up at political meetings, they rally, they create a voice that can be heard!!!! The others.......well they whine and complain on the interweb.

 

[Muley_73]

So 100% of these tag dollars goes straight to the UDWR. They decide the money is best spent on researching the desert tortoise. Tell me if sportsman have won?

SFW keeps 60% of the funds and spends it on UDWR approved projects. To me that 60% is much safer and more likely to be spent on conservation projects benefiting huntable wildlife. We forget that sportsman are not the only group that gets a say in how the UDWR is run and how it allocates its resources. Lets not lose focus on who the true enemy is. I promise you its not SFW. I also promise the true enemy group or groups are organized and their end game is not based on any opportunity for hunters!!!

 

[elkfromabove]

>
>>The 200 Expo permits are another
>>matter. They generate about $1
>>million per year in application
>>fees and 30% ($1.50) of
>>each $5 application fee is
>>now kept in a separate
>>fund for UDWR approved projects,
>>while the remaining 70% ($3.50)
>>is kept for their own
>>use with no strings attached.
>>
>
>
>If you're trying to educate the
>uninformed you must also add
>that the F&G gets 100%
>of the (200 expo)
>tag fee just like they
>would in any other F&G
>tag distribution.
>Conveniently folks who are anti-expo tags
>leave that little nugget out
>of the equation.
>
>Zeke

Yes, I left that information out because the DWR would get that money no matter how the permits were marketed, whether by the regular draw, Sportsmens draw, CWMU, Landowner permits or Expo. The same is true of the Conservation (auctioned) permits. But, again, it's not the money that troubles me or UWC, it's the leverage that the money generates. And the perception that anytime anyone disagrees with a proposal or project or event or action by one of those groups, they're automatically labeled as group haters or anti-this or anti-that and anything they say or propose is pretty much sluffed off by those who make policy.

UWC has NEVER said we were anti-expo tags and we aren't! All we've ever asked for is an open audit of the funds and a higher portion of the application funds be returned to the wildlife/DWR. We originally asked for a 90% permanent return just like the Conservation/auctioned funds, but we eventually backed off to 50% as a calculated doable amount, but all we/you got was a reluctant agreement to 30% from the previous 0%. Whether or not you could call that an improvement is up to you, I guess, but it is a change!

 

[elkfromabove]

>So 100% of these tag dollars
>goes straight to the UDWR.
> They decide the money
>is best spent on researching
>the desert tortoise. Tell
>me if sportsman have won?
>
>
> SFW keeps 60% of the
>funds and spends it on
>UDWR approved projects. To
>me that 60% is much
>safer and more likely to
>be spent on conservation projects
>benefiting huntable wildlife. We
>forget that sportsman are not
>the only group that gets
>a say in how the
>UDWR is run and how
>it allocates its resources.
>Lets not lose focus on
>who the true enemy is.
> I promise you its
>not SFW. I also promise
>the true enemy group or
>groups are organized and their
>end game is not based
>on any opportunity for hunters!!!
>

Yes, sportsmen definitely have won, because the DWR is charged/mandated with managing lots of non-game species as well as game species, and they already have to designate the money for "desert tortoises", which they may now be taking out of "deer" money. So any additional money they receive means more money for game animals.

So if you already know who the true enemy group or groups are, why are you spending so much time, energy and money contending with the other sportsmen's groups, organized or unorganized?

 

[Stonefly]

#1 I understand the projects are DWR approved, How is it decided who gets the "job" of doing the projects? Are they put out to bid? Is there competition between "Contractors" to do projects?
#2 I have ask this question before, but, How is it a groupe (DWR) that is paid for by my taxes,tag fees,application fee's ect.. Not able to handle the job of Drawing tags, Actioning Tags, ect, When private companies can, and turn a profit.
#3 Why doesnt a Hunting based Group challenge the DWRs "Charge" of caring for ALL wildlife. I see enough bird watchers sqawking until they get there bird watching building along with its board walk paths. Do Hunters not sqeak load enough to get the grease. It should be 90% of available money for wildlife go to the species that provided the money in the first place. I would dare to bet I am not alone when I say, When I buy a Deer or Elk tag im not thinking of a desert dwelling turtle, A yellow bellied sap sucker, Or a dang prairie rodent. Im not that touchy feely. Let um die out if noone wants to pony up the money, Use MY money for BIG GAME.
$4..... Hell the list goes on and on.. right now im going to BBQ.

 

[Gator]

Good idea just start with the first 3 main problems and work from there.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

 

[hossblur]

>LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-15
>AT 10:18?AM (MST)
>
>Qoute- Hossblur-- " Landowners can still
>sell tresspass fee, and in
>fact would be a further
>incentive to them to better
>their hunting due to competion
>based on health of herds,
>rather than availability of tags
>without the rules the other
>90% follow."
>
>How much would you be willing
>to pay them? Would it
>still be a rich man
>sport ?

Nothing, but I hunt public land so thats an easy answer. The hard answer is, it would vary. One one figure the Heatons and Deseret would still fetch top dollar, others might not. However what we would find is that overall, prices would come down. The artificial prices are driven by the same deep pocket interests setting the market price by have that guaranteed tag. Without it, those same guys might not have a tag. So that $15k elk hunt on deseret might only be worth $8k this year if the guys that have the tags only want to pay $8k for access.

Yeah, I have heard the "well they will just sell it for ranchettes and we loose the area" argument. OK, its there land, they bought it, they can do what they want with it. Why am I subsidizing there buisness with my tax(tag) dollars? No one GIVES your buisness product to sale, why are CWMU's different from your buisness?
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[hossblur]

>
>>The 200 Expo permits are another
>>matter. They generate about $1
>>million per year in application
>>fees and 30% ($1.50) of
>>each $5 application fee is
>>now kept in a separate
>>fund for UDWR approved projects,
>>while the remaining 70% ($3.50)
>>is kept for their own
>>use with no strings attached.
>>
>
>
>If you're trying to educate the
>uninformed you must also add
>that the F&G gets 100%
>of the (200 expo)
>tag fee just like they
>would in any other F&G
>tag distribution.
>Conveniently folks who are anti-expo tags
>leave that little nugget out
>of the equation.
>
>Zeke

Yup, for that $399,000 AI tag, they got the tag fee, which is what $150. They gave up 10%, or $39,900, but they kept a C-note.

DWR approved projects. They could do them WITHOUT the tag money same as with it. I highly doubt the DWR EVER stopped someone from doing projects just because they hadn't gotten any government cheese.

Again, right now the UDWR is doing a drawing for 90,0000 deer tags, yet we are supposed to believe they could never handle auctioning another 200, at a cost of 10%. Go ask your boss what your buisness profit margin is. My company runs on 1.5%. 10% profit margin is disgusting. And before you start again with the they do projects the dwr tells them to do, THAT IS SUPPOSEDLY WHY THEY ARE AROUND. Even the mafia got kicked out of the skim in Vegas!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-15 AT 06:43AM (MST)[p]>#1 I understand the projects
>are DWR approved, How is
>it decided who gets the
>"job" of doing the projects?
>Are they put out to
>bid? Is there competition between
>"Contractors" to do projects?
>#2 I have ask this question
>before, but, How is it
>a groupe (DWR) that is
>paid for by my taxes,tag
>fees,application fee's ect.. Not able
>to handle the job of
>Drawing tags, Actioning Tags, ect,
>When private companies can, and
>turn a profit.
>#3 Why doesnt a Hunting based
>Group challenge the DWRs "Charge"
>of caring for ALL wildlife.
>I see enough bird watchers
>sqawking until they get there
>bird watching building along with
>its board walk paths. Do
>Hunters not sqeak load enough
>to get the grease. It
>should be 90% of available
>money for wildlife go to
>the species that provided the
>money in the first place.
>I would dare to bet
>I am not alone when
>I say, When I buy
>a Deer or Elk tag
>im not thinking of a
>desert dwelling turtle, A yellow
>bellied sap sucker, Or a
>dang prairie rodent. Im not
>that touchy feely. Let um
>die out if noone wants
>to pony up the money,
>Use MY money for BIG
>GAME.
>$4..... Hell the list goes on
>and on.. right now im
>going to BBQ.

#1-All the projects are approved by the DWR, but not all of them are initiated nor suggested by the DWR. In fact, most of them are suggested by the group holding the funds 'cause they want as much PR and leverage as they can get for "donating" the money and they have to have enough lead time to inform the public media. They also have 2 years to spend the 60% money before it goes back to the DWR, so they get to decide whether or not they want to do any given project. In the meanwhile, THEY ALSO GET TO KEEP THE INTEREST DRAWN ON THOSE FUNDS and that also includes the 30% returned directly to the DWR which they don't have to return until September 1. So, at any given time they are drawing interest on about $3 to $5 million.

#2-I don't know the answer to that one. Given the above information, it seems like they're losing money, our money!

#3-Per the FY 2014 DWR budget which is on their website under "About the DWR", you need not worry about paying for desert dwelling turtles, yellow-bellied sapsuckers or prairie rodents with your license and permit money. The vast majority of license and permit money does go back to game species (big game, upland game, waterfowl, and game fish as mandated by the State Legislature. Nongame species are paid for by Utah State general/taxpayer funds (9% of DWR's budget) and by special grants from federal and private entities. Of course, some of the big game projects also benefit other species, but that's incidental and not the primary reason for the project.

 

[Muley_73]

hoss,
I never said the DWR could not do the projects on their own. My point is sportsmen would have less of a say in the projects that get done. The dollars the DWR controls could be spent on any wildlife, not just huntable wildlife. The 60% is held by a sportsmens group so they can make sure that is what the dollars go toward. You do understand that the DWR is over more than just huntable wildlife...Yes???

 

[2_Point]

Looks like the uneducated continue to fight without facts. Fear is always a good tool to herd the sheep. Using the fear that conservation tag money might used on desert tortoises? Nice play, bud.

 

[Muley_73]

2 point,
I promise my education started long before the interweb and even before SFW was a twinkle in Dons eye. You are right that there are plenty of sheep around to be herded. Too funny, always talk on the interweb and never any real action taken or solutions implemented. What an entertaining past time!

 

[hossblur]

>hoss,
>I never said the DWR could
>not do the projects on
>their own. My point
>is sportsmen would have less
>of a say in the
>projects that get done.
>The dollars the DWR controls
>could be spent on any
>wildlife, not just huntable wildlife.
> The 60% is held
>by a sportsmens group so
>they can make sure that
>is what the dollars go
>toward. You do understand
>that the DWR is over
>more than just huntable wildlife...Yes???
>
Sure. Did I get to vote for the projects that $fw did with that 60%? For that matter did you? Lets not be stupid. Like was pointed out earlier, they draw interest on that money for one. For two, like any other expo, or convention, the taxpayer ate it to "entice" the expo to be there. Three, you would agree that they keep 10% for "whatever". So they get a taxfree pary, the DWR advertises for it, the DWR mans the tag booths(guess all those brown pants are donating time?), they are GIVEN tags which they sell, they skim off the top, sit on the money, then give some back, and in your eyes this is a good deal? If you think it is, let me have 10% of your paycheck, i'll park it in the bank, then give you back 90% of that money NEXT YEAR, after you pay my rent and food for the year.

As for the DWR approved projects. I did some of them for dedicated sportsman. I am sure my proclamation deliveries save a ton of deer.

Look, I get that there are guys out doing projects and holding their noses at leadership, and they should be commended. Buy when ONE group concentrates this much power, and frankly this much wealth, and HAS ZERO checks and balances its a problem. And the fact that they used this wealth and power to create more wealth and power proves the point. You can't use the "how bad would it be without them argument", because the data suggests in the long view, its was BETTER before them. The only species that they might claim some better results are sheep, and that solely because the population was so small before them that any additions skew the stats.

Your an outdoorsman obviously. Unless your under 20, and blind, YOU CAN SEE for yourself that the deer herd is HORRIBLE. I care not about buck/doe ratios. There simply aren't enough deer, and any 15 minute drive early in the morning or before dark, and you see it for yourself. Millions and millions of dollars have been laundered, yet in the end, the species $fw was going to save, ISN'T. Only government people think you should be able to fail yourself UPWARD!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[Cam@strawberry]

#1 accountability at the biological level.

#2 fair sportsmen representation on the rac and WB, it irks me to no end watching non consumptives vote on wildlife issues. If you don't put money/time into the system you are not entitled to a say in how it's run!

#3 a working plan to deal with future hunters and the plain truth that they will NEVER have a fair chance at hunting in our current point system.

https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters