unit 17 elk

bolsen

bolsen

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i drew sept 19-24th archery elk in unit 17. anyone on here draw this tag or has drawn it in the past? any info i could get would help me out a ton!
thanks, brandon
 
send me pm if you wanna talk bout it
im willing to help


"Better to dwell in the wilderness, Then with a contentious and angry women Proverbs 21:19)
 
I've hunted deer 5 times over the last 10 years or so in the southern part of the unit and never saw an elk until the last hunt....they apparently don't frequent that part.
 
I've hunted it numerous times. The Elk will hold high, and to dark timber, if its still hot. Use your topo maps and find the funnel points between the peaks of San Mateo Mtn, and all the fingers coming off it into Kelley canyon. We have killed some really nice elk in here, but the outfitters hit these fingers hard also, so get in early and glass all the edges of the dark timber. There are 3 or 4 water tanks that just get hammered by rutting elk. Get your maps and find Pine Tank, and I think you'll be very happy. A buncha guys prob be mad at me cuz it's a hot spot, so best of luck.
 
>I've hunted it numerous times.
>The Elk will hold high,
>and to dark timber, if
>its still hot. Use
>your topo maps and find
>the funnel points between the
>peaks of San Mateo Mtn,
>and all the fingers coming
>off it into Kelley canyon.
> We have killed some
>really nice elk in here,
>but the outfitters hit these
>fingers hard also, so get
>in early and glass all
>the edges of the dark
>timber. There are 3
>or 4 water tanks that
>just get hammered by rutting
>elk. Get your maps
>and find Pine Tank, and
>I think you'll be very
>happy. A buncha guys
>prob be mad at me
>cuz it's a hot spot,
>so best of luck.
____________________________________
Yep.. that's a good way to start a fist fight/mud wrestling contest. Guys will be fighting over it & the outfitters will be telling everyone to get out, it's private property! :) JK!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-11 AT 04:16PM (MST)[p]Ya, we used to hunt elk in there also. There was one area that would always have elk in it. But, the rancher, who's ranch the road went thru, might I add the only access point, to the area, closed up the road, and the game and fish, I won't even call them a department, would not do a thing about it, as this person is a big rancher. He also happens to get several Unit wide landowner permits for the unit also. I wonder why his family closed up the only access point? Oh ya, so they could have access to it alone... I'm not big on NMDGF if you can't tell. They have rubbed me the wrong way multiple times...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-11 AT 05:54PM (MST)[p]The Department can't do anything if the guy closed the road within his ranch unless it was a public road and it doesn't sound like it is. That happens all over the country where public land is inaccessible either because there is private property completely surrounding it or a road goes through private property. In that case, the private property owner has the legal right to leave it open, close part or all of it at any time, etc. When that is the case it seems like he shouldn't be allowed any tags unless he leaves it open, but unless the law is changed they can't do that either.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-11 AT 07:20PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN, I don't know details of this area. But in NM if the ranch gets UW elk tags, then public hunter are allowed access to ranch roads and actually even hunt on ranch. I would call local game and fish warden if they really close the road.
 
Well, looks like someone doesn't know the whole story. Mossback, you would do well with checking your story before saying that NM Game and Fish isn't doing anything about this situation. You are talking about FR 140 and Forest Service doesn't have an easment through this property. The property in question does not get landowner authorizations, therefore is not required to open his property to legally licensed elk hunters. Game and Fish has worked with the landowner through the Open Gate program to gain access through this property for the hunts. Game and Fish has worked with the Forest Service to open up access around the property to gain access for the hunts. It would do everyone a great deal to call the Cibola National Forest to voice their opinion about creating a road from the north (Sim Yaten Canyon) to get the country in question. I realize people have issues with Game and Fish, but it's pretty funny when they don't know the whole story and spout off negative comments based off preconceived notions. Please contact your local NM Game and Fish warden to get the whole story.
 
And, even if the LO had unit wide tags, they only have to give "access" to the enrolled property. That in itself does not mean vehicle access to any and all roads within the property. You might have to park inside the gate and hoof it a few miles.
 
>And, even if the LO had
>unit wide tags, they only
>have to give "access" to
>the enrolled property. That in
>itself does not mean vehicle
>access to any and all
>roads within the property. You
>might have to park inside
>the gate and hoof it
>a few miles.


Don't know if the property in questions gets tags or not, but you are wrong about vehicular access. This is from page 31 of the proclamation.

conservation officer.
Unit-Wide: Unit-wide landowners must allow free, unrestricted and
equal access, including vehicular access, to any legally licensed public or
Unit-Wide private land elk hunter to their entire ranch during each public
elk hunt in that Unit. This permission does not constitute permission to
hunt any other species or during any other time period
 
well I'll be.

If a key is required to pass thru multiple private parcels (composed of different property owners) to access the enrolled property, is the enrolled LO required to provide a key? And, are those other LO's required to honor the easement granted across their property?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-11 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]>well I'll be.
>
>If a key is required to
>pass thru multiple private parcels
>(composed of different property owners)
>to access the enrolled property,
>is the enrolled LO required
>to provide a key? And,
>are those other LO's required
>to honor the easement granted
>across their property?
__________________________________________

I'm not sure I fully understand what your're asking, but if a public elk hunter steps foot onto private deeded land that does not get UW tags, he or she better have written permission.

The access granted via UW landowner tags only provides access to that ranch.

On a slightly different note, if a certain ranch is comprised of both private deeded land AND state trust land, the vehicle access applies to both the deeded land and the state trust land... (I think). Either way, State trust land is accessable by foot or any open road to every legal/lisenced hunter for any and all species, including migratory bird hunting.

So.... if those properties your reffering to are receiving UW landowner elk tags, then YES lisenced elk hunters have access that is EQUAL to the landowner! If those properties are not receiving UW elk tags, then NO... access is via written permission only, unless traveling on a public road thru such private property.

As stated before, there is also private land that has been graciously opened up thru efforts of the NM G&F on the open gate program.

As stewards of the hunting priveledge, we must first be professional and respectful... That being said, without having to put up with BS when a select few of the landowners/outfitters try to change the rules after the games have begun.

The only advise or words I have written that you should take to heart is this... Read the proclamation, study "current" land ownership maps, speak to a G&F officer, the State Land Office, and the BLM, because I have had ranch hands & landowners both try and kick me off of BLM land and State Trust land that I was legally hunting. If you ever find yourself in a dispute with someone about your right to access, call both the Sheriff and the G&F officer and ask them to come settle it. In my experiences noted above, Once I started dialing, the tone changed immediately. So, do your own homework and find out if the area you want to hunt has more access than you previously thought... or not.

Just don't use "well 1FastGambler said I could hunt here" as an excuse for trespassing! :)

Good luck to all!
 
Exactly 1fastgambler, the ranch hands were herding cattle in the National Forest, and attempted to kick us out of "their land". We told them we are on National Forest, and they left, but locked up the gate a few weeks later. There is an entrance from the north. But, that too is locked. If a PUBLIC, FOREST SERVICE road goes thru private property, and is the ONLY ACCESS POINT to a large chunk of National Forest land, then the landowner CANNOT lock the gate. If they could, we would have no access to National Forest left. And, as told by the ranch hands, they state to work for their tags for that unit. Can't guarantee they are UW, but they use them as such, as I have been there and talked to one of them. This is all from first hand experience, not other's words. We hunted in there for five years straight, previous to the gate being locked. I bagged an elk every year. You have to remember, that is the only forest service road to access the area. Thus, the landowner cannot take the public's right to the land. And, as for the other gate to the north, that one was there first, so I doubt they would even consider them removing it.
 
I'm confused by some of what is being posted here. If a private road (like across a ranch) accesses a large chunk of Forest Sevice, even if it is the only road going in there, the owner doesn't have to provide access. If the road is publicly maintained (county road or FS road) across the private (ranch) the owner does have to provide access. In NM, if a private road has been used for public access for 10 years, the owner has granted what is called a "prescriptive easement", whether he intended to or not. If the owner shuts off access to a prescriptive easement and the public can prove that they had used the road for at least 10 years, they can take the owner to court and they should win legal access (use of the road) to the public land, according to NM law, as I understand it. I lived on a ranch in the Sacramento Mountains where the owner shut off a prescriptive easement and several people threatened to take it to court, but didn't, so he got away with it. He told me several times that if someone challenged it, he would lose because the public had used the road for 40 years or more. It has to be challenged in court within a certain time after access is shutoff, but I don't remember those details. It was a FS road up to the ranch gate and the FS never said a word about closing it off.
-- Bob
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-11 AT 08:11PM (MST)[p]The enrolled property (unit wide tags) is accessed by easement across several other pvt parcels which are owned by a multitude of people. Several gates have to be crossed, all locked with only LO's having the keys. The road is 100% pvt.
Does the LO that has the unit wide tags at the end of the road, have to give gate keys to the 75 people that have tags for the unit and want access?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-11
>AT 08:11?PM (MST)
>
>The enrolled property (unit wide tags)
>is accessed by easement across
>several other pvt parcels which
>are owned by a multitude
>of people. Several gates have
>to be crossed, all locked
>with only LO's having the
>keys. The road is 100%
>pvt.
>Does the LO that has the
>unit wide tags at the
>end of the road, have
>to give gate keys to
>the 75 people that have
>tags for the unit and
>want access?


Nope.
 
then how can they comply with the regs? To allow "unrestricted access", the LO at the end of the road would have to give keys to any hunter that asked.

"Unit-Wide: Unit-wide landowners must allow free, unrestricted and
equal access, including vehicular access, to any legally licensed public or
Unit-Wide private land elk hunter to their entire ranch during each public
elk hunt in that Unit."
 
>then how can they comply with
>the regs? To allow "unrestricted
>access", the LO at the
>end of the road would
>have to give keys to
>any hunter that asked.
>
>"Unit-Wide: Unit-wide landowners must allow free,
>unrestricted and
>equal access, including vehicular access, to
>any legally licensed public or
>
>Unit-Wide private land elk hunter to
>their entire ranch during each
>public
>elk hunt in that Unit."


Yeah I can see your point, but we are talking about NM here. Here are some of my opinions about landowner tags from a previous post.

The landowner tag situation needs attention, but there are alot of factors to consider. First everyone will agree the Jennings law needs to be repealed. Second there are four different types of landowner tags which all deserve to be looked at seperately. You have outside of the core ranches which are all designated ranch only, these ranches should remain the way they are now. These include all of unit 4, and alot of the units in the northeast area of the state. These units are almost completely private ground, and most of these ranches are very large. Hell some of them have elk that live out their entire lives without leaving the property. Second you have ranch only tags in the e-plus program. I see no reason to attack these landowners either, they are providing habitat to our elk. Alot of these landowners have had these ranches passed down through their families for generations, many of which had no elk on them until the comparitivily recent past. As a public draw hunter you have a snowballs chance in hell of hunting these properties no matter what you do with their tags. If you take their tags away they will just charge trespass fees( no different from what you have now basically). Third you have unit wide tags in the e-plus program. These are also ranches which provide habitat for our elk. The unit wide tag was put in place to compensate the rancher who has depradation problems at times of the year other than hunting season. In other words they figure this ranchers ability to be compensated by a tag only helps if there are elk to hunt at the time. Since the elk are on his property in july but not sept, or Oct he gets a tag. These ranches need to be given the oppurtunity to change to ranch only and stay in the e-plus system. If they decide not to then that is their prerogative. Do away with the unit wide tag! Some will argue that this closes properties to the public hunter, Yes but are you really losing anything if they needed a UW tag so they could go hunt the forest while you are tromping around on their ranch? If these ranches are truely experiencing depradation problems then hold a depredation hunt! At the point the jennings law is gone these ranches either go ranch only, except the dep hunt, or except the elk. Fourth you have the SCR or small contributing ranches. Almost all of these ranches get unit wide tags. A large portion of them actually contribute nothing. Some of them do though. The ones that do should be able to prove that they have elk on their property. If they can, give them a ranch only tag, let them hunt any season they want or even all of them for that matter. If they can't prove they have elk on their property then they are out and that tag can be put back into the public draw. A lot of these properties were purchased for the sole reason of getting an elk tag. Some are as small as 3 acres. If I have 5 acres that I raise no crops or livestock on, which had an elk walk acrossed it 2 years ago do I deserve a tag? Right now out of all of the landowner elk tags there are close to 3000 UW tags each year. With all of these changes I would guess you would put around 2500 tags back in the draw considering the e-plus ranches that would except the ranch only tags. In my opinion the premium units will see the smallest increase in tags because they have mostly big ranches which are deservedly recieving RO tags.
 
Yea, I know it NM, I've had a chat with a cpl people in the Game dept.
I think I'll call the LO today and see how tweaked he gets when I tell him I want gate keys.
 
Good luck Bob, he has had that area locked up several years and will not change now. It sure is a shame, there is nice tax payer provided campgrounds in that area as well.
 
>Yea, I know it NM, I've
>had a chat with a
>cpl people in the Game
>dept.
> I think I'll call the
>LO today and see how
>tweaked he gets when I
>tell him I want gate
>keys.


Cool, I'd like to hear his response if you get through to him.
 
The rancher might be nicer than you think. Last year, I was pretty freak out during my hunt because I wanted to cross over a ranch with UW tags to get to the forest behind and the ranch. At first I was very intimidated since the ranch had lots of private property and no hunting signs along the fence and on the gates. I decided to give (what turned out to be) the rancher manager a courtesy call before I crossed over his property. It turned out that he was a big time hunter, extremely nice and he gave me all sorts of tips. He even told me the best water tanks and where people killed bulls on the early archery season.

Hope your call turns out as well as mine.
 
A few years ago I had a rancher in Unit 17 let me hunt deer near a waterhole on his property. I ran into him while scouting the day before season. He also pointed out a couple of good areas on public land. His advise was good and I killed the best muley of my life based in part on his help.
 
I'm glad some people have had good experiences with landowners in 17. I hunted 17 last year and I'm skeptical at best. I found out about the Unit Wide landowner tags and accompanying public access and spent hours reading up on the rules. I felt like I had to go to the ends of the earth to try and get maps of the participating properties (they are trying to make them available online).

My single biggest complaint is that the phone numbers provided in the landowner list they post online is completely bogus. I tried calling the first 10 landowners on the list that are required to open up their ranches for public access and every single number was disconnected. I'm sure their private tag holders are provided with a valid contact number though...
 

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