Use ATV's illegally.........Lose Your ATV!

S

SoleSearcher36

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-12 AT 03:00PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-12 AT 01:20?PM (MST)

How many of you would like to see an "enhanced" penalty for illegal off-trail abuse of ATVs? Lazy, unethical shed hunters not only have the potential to give all shed hunters a "black eye" by unethical and illegal use of ATV's offtrail they also damage habitat, contribute to/cause erosion problems. I contend that this type of use of ATV's is also unnecessarily disruptive to game animals(particularly mule deer) on the winter range. I am seeing more and more of this type of abuse with each passing spring and have to believe many of you are as well. From what I have seen firsthand it seems these guys operate with relative impunity and something needs to be done about it without just needlessly penalizing the vast majority of honest folks out there.
How many of you would support an "enhanced penalty" system to possibly help remedy the problem without unneccesarily penalizing legitimate ATV use on established roads/trails?
The current fine system of $100 is obviously not a steep enough price to pay for illegal ATV use. I would propose a "graduated" penalty system that would impose drastic penalties on gross or repeat offenders to include a $10,000 fine and seizure/forfeiture of the offender's ATV and personal equipment.(binoculars,etc)
I believe this would help put a damper on this activity without unneccesarily limiting or punishing the responsible user.

I have already contacted the BLM as well as Colorado Parks & Wildlife and think this is something that is acheivable with a little support and consensus amongst sportsmen.

What say you?

This is a remedy I am going to pursue in my home state of colorado and am beginning the groundwork for that. Will it get anywhere..............it won't if I don't try. The squeaky wheel usually gets the oil so I guess I am going to have to be that wheel rather than silently griping about it rather than trying to do something. Anyone interested in lending their support/advice in any way can feel free to contact me at [email protected]. It would be helpful to have a list of supportive names to accompany my contact with the CPW,BLM & USFS. I will even have a folder for hate mail if you like to send that sort of thing. I am not looking to further limit our use of ATV's/offroad vehicles. I am generally supportive of responsible use and do so myself. I am interested in protecting our resources and the priveledges we currently have and not allowing a small percentage of disrespectful abusers threaten the future of those priveledges.
 
To add to this, CPW or the F&G in your state may only be able to do this in regards to "wildlife harrassment" but could increase their paltry penalties in the instances where that charge could be supported. BLM has the most jurisdiction as it comes to the vast majority of land type where this is happening. They do not have to approach it from a wildlife standpoint and can ticket for impact to the resource.
 
Go for it! There are way too many things on the books today that have ridiculously small penalties and increasing those to even forfeiture of items involved in a lot of these crimes, including poaching is way overdue IMHO! You may use my name if you wish, as it's not blocked on this site like many do.
 
Thank you TOPGUN.
I agree with what you said about the many "toothless" laws on the books. There are also alot of unneccessary laws/regulations out there but that doesn't mean that all laws are bad as some may be inclined to say. The laws I have a problem with are the ones that penalize the honest man alone by either flawed design or by lacking the "teeth" to deter the abusers. I am also not necessarily a fan of "mandatory penalties" but think there has to be a stiff enough penalty available to be applied to deter even the most calloused.
 
yeah, I say go for it too! I love my atv but like hubby says, too many go off trail/road and make their own, then it gets turned into a mountain freeway. Penalties are way too soft. Good luck!
 
Didn't realize this was cross posted on every forum so here's my post again from the one in the shed forum. Unless you want to be in bed with the nutters and PETA, this is completely the wrong direction for sportsman. They start here by dividing us and when we're all said and done, our hunting rights will be next on the chopping block.

Sorry, but more govenment is not the answer. There's not enough law enforcement already.

Secondly, we don't want to be turning over any more jurisdiction to the BLM. Those nutters can't sort out what's current road much less determine how to divy up fines for running over a couple of sage brush.

If you really want to get involved I'd suggest you go here for starters.

http://www.sharetrails.org/
http://cohvco.org/
http://www.usaall.org/?aboutus.htm
http://www.takebackutah.org/

Cheers,
Pete
 
Heck no I will not support it.
I do not like the shed hunting, trespassing, wildlife chasing, ect at all. I will not support any more laws that restrict further freedoms.... & I believe
topguns signature or for that matter any signature from remote users dictating what's best for western lands is BS.
No punt intended!


Justin Richins
R&K Hunting Company Inc.
www.thehuntingcompany.com
 
We need to police ourselves. The Fish & Game have already gone overboard with the Barney Fife routine. They need to be biologists & not cops.
 
We have a long way to go as sportsman and especially guides if we can't support the laws that protect/maintain habitat and game. Granted there are some officers that are over the top "d-bags", but giving teeth to existing laws so they mean something should not bother anyone but the guilty.
The "no more government, but enforce the laws/more law enforcement" approach is double speak and an oxymoron. Federal LE officers have jurisdiction on 84.5% of NV, 57.4% of UT,36.6% of CO,48.1% of AZ, and 50.2% of ID (all of which citizens of these states pay pennies to enjoy). Not to mention the agreements with state agencies that they have and similar laws(that tend to mirror Federal Laws) that states have for federal lands or habitat protection.

If everyone followed common sense and common courtesy there would be no need for rules. The ones we have are a product of error in judgment.

I support the effort to make ATV/OHV laws real. And yes I do own and use one often.

My 2 cents.

3p2
 
After I have seen the way the Conservation Officers (F&G) and Forestry personnel here in Idaho enforce the current "closed road" laws I would say NO! They don't have to post roads as being closed, so many, and this includes residents as well as non-residents, are completely unaware that a road is closed until they are stopped and cited. When I approached a CO for Idaho a couple of years ago at the SLC Sportsman?s Expo regarding the matter I was dumbfounded that the rationale behind enforcing but not posting was that, "People just tear the signs down and we have to replace them." I told him that enforcing an un-posted rule or law would be like a state changing the speed limit on a highway, not posting the speed limit but still having the Highway Patrol write speeding citations for the unmarked speed. Closed roads and trails should be clearly marked to avoid heavy-handed, overzealous garbage from happening.
For the record, I don't own an ATV, but I do know how I would feel about being cited for something I had no clue was illegal.
---JadgBob
 
My proposal doesn't include or endorse ANY new regulations further limiting type/area of use by offroad vehicles. I hope that is clear enough. It doesn't negatively effect anyone who does not break the law. If you don't ride illegally I don't understand your aversion to providing an effective deterrant to those who do. To me it is akin to disapproving of harsh penalties for those who poach trophy animals....simple as that. I have yet to hear any of the dissenting opinions suggest another route of merit. If the increasing problem isn't put into check you can bet that sooner or later further restrictions will end up being implemented that will affect all of us users.
 
Change each states law so UNLESS a road is marked open then is closed. Is stupid to have a sign closing a trail just to have a moron knock it over so can claim ignorance.

Ride on a closed trail and lose your ATV, motorbike, etc. as well as whatever you have with you such as binos, gun, etc.

Policing ourselves has not worked since too many "tough" guys are in love with their ATV and care less what the laws are for you since the laws do not apply to them.

Aucton sales of confiscated items would fund as many enforcement personnel as you can put on the mountain the first year. By the second year will be less of this crap. Gives all of us a black eye when hunters break any law while hunting.
 
>Change each states law so UNLESS
>a road is marked open
>then is closed.

Outdoors you know not what you ask for here. The basis of our great country is our freedom. The idea that everything is illegal, off limits and unobtainable without the consent of the ruling prolitariat is contrary to everything we stand for.

The simple notion that everything is closed unless "deemed" appropriate flys in the face of everything we stand for and have faught for over the last 200 something years.

Be careful what you ask for, as those in a position to "deem" may not have anyones best interest at heart. It's the basic principle of our nation you're suggesting we turn on it's head in such a simple statement.

Cheers,
Pete
 
Here's what c3 & theox I guess never see?

I'm about 8-9 miles in to a ROAD CLOSED TO ALL ATV Traffic area!


I try to get away from most TARDville Assshhhollles!

Hard to do anymore though!

GEEZUS We've got some real f'n Dandies in this State!

I'm on a Ridge Glassing the next Ridge over debating if it might be worth the Hike?

I decides I'm gonna try it,Steep.Deep SOB!

About that time I hear a Wheeler,then I see's the Wheeler(On the next Ridge over!)

Through My Spotter I watch him pull up to one of them little chickensshhitt brown USFS fiberglass 'Road Closed' Signs & I remind you He's already in to 8-9 Miles worth of Wheeler Closed Territory!

He gets off His Wheeler,looks around in all directions then walks up to the Sign & lifts it out,carries it over to shrub Pine & proceeds breaking the Law on his Wheeler!

He sure was an Ethical BASTARD though!

On his way back out I watched him Stop & put the Sign back up!

USFS got a Call,but had an overload of Excuses why they didn't wanna do anything to that JACKASS!

Once again,more Rules/Laws not Obeyed Nor Enforced!

If you haven't seen/or see a Big Problem with this in TARDville there may be two reasons why:

You're Blind & don't Hunt the Pumpkin Patch!

Or You're one of the Law Breakin Beaches yourself & too Stupid to see the damage that has already been done in this state!

Amazing how many TARDS don't look in to the Future as far as tomorrow morning!

I still shake my head when the USFS tries to close a Road!

They build up a 10" PISSCUTTER of a Burm & I guess Expect TARDS not to cross them with their Quads that will Climb a Tree,let alone that Phony little Berm they spent thousands of Dollars on!

She's over Boys!

















[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 00:00AM (MST)[p]Seen that myself STTM. Hell there are places that I know have been off limits to all motor vehicle use(wilderness study areas) for over 20 years and all it takes is a look with google earth satellite images to see the illegal atv use on them. Enforcement sucks but it is understandibly hard to justify the expense of investigation of such infractions "after the fact" when there is only $100 worth of fine revenue to be had upon conviction. Right or wrong it is what it is. I gotta believe they might be a little more motivated to follow up if there is a $10,000 carrot hanging in front of 'em. More motivation to prosecute offenders and more reason for idiots to think twice about pulling that crap.
 
Na!

10K ain't gonna do!

Let's go 50,000.00 fine on the first offense!

Wheeler/Quad is Siezed & it will cost you a Fine of the value of the Wheeler to get it back or you Forfeit your Wheeler,Sorry Eldarado We gonna play for Keeps!

All other Accessories are Siezed also,Guns,Bullets,Knives,Hunting Gear,Beer Coolers & etc!

They Lose their Hunting Rights for 15 years on the first offense and for Life if there's a Second Offense & 25 years in the Slammer!

Yup,Gonna be some mad TARDS!

TFB!





[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home
 
"People just tear the signs down and we have to replace them."

That's the truth. We were camped/elk hunting the Wasatch unit last fall. We parked by a trail head clearly marked as closed to ATV's. A day later the sign was torn down and thrown aside. We put it back up and it was gone again the next day. It completely contradicted the reason we picked that spot! I still get pissed thinking about it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 08:14AM (MST)[p]I will go back and read the posts I just missed because I stopped when I read the post by Justin. I'm getting just a little bit tired of people telling me that because I live in the East I don't have any right commenting on stuff like this. The last I heard, all the BLM and NF lands throughout the entire US are still owned by all taxpayers, not just those that live in the state where they are located! I will not argue about more or less laws being on the books, but the laws that are on the books for the good of all of us should be thoroughly and properly enforced or taken off the books. Off-road ATV laws, if not enforced to the fullest, will ruin more and more habitat, as well as stress animals on the winter range when used improperly. Anyone who adheres to any reasonable law on the books should have no worries about being penalized if there is proper enforcement. I have to laugh when one member basically stated something like "a machine doesn't do much damage running over sagebrush". I would counter by saying that if one does, it will very possibly lead to another and another and another. I love the "police it ourselves" thought, but ask does that mean we take the law into our own hands? Do we do a tuneup on a machine that is where it shouldn't be and in turn violate a law ourselves by destroying someone else's property? I think not and that's why the laws need to have stringent penalties and proper enforcement. If it takes more people to do that enforcement, then all of us who don't violate should be willing to pay the price to see that those who do pay the penalties. IMHO, just by having high penalties that are enforced, including confiscation of property involved in the violation, could go a long way in stopping some from violating just because they are scared of the penalties when caught, if nothing else. End of rant!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 12:49PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 12:44?PM (MST)

Just an update:

In speaking with the BLM's National Chief Ranger Jason Caffey, my understanding of the primary issue that prevents truly effective enforcement/deterrents for this and many other violations is the federal "mandate" they and similar entities must follow. This is the "Federal Land Policy & Management Act" of 1976. To break it down the best I can currently understand what the "stumbling block" to be is this...........per "FLPMA" these violations are to be prosecuted as class "A" misdemeanors. There are legal intricacies inherent to the classification as class "A" that by default prevent successful prosecution. What needs to happen is "FLPMA" needs to be amended to provide authority to the agencies to pursue these cases as a lesser class "B" misdemeanor. Essentially by reducing the severety of the class of charge it would allow the cases to be tried in courts that have the time/resources to hear them. The class "A" stipulation requires them essentially to be heard in the same courts that basically will not hear misdemeanor cases.........effectively rendering the law "toothless" so to speak. I will follow up with more information as I gather it. Mr Caffey was very generous with his time and information and seemed truly transparent and accessible.

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/8-penalties-available-blm-violations-19826956

My understanding is basically because the class "A" misdemeanors have the possibility of jail time and the issuing body(of the citation) is a federal entity then the matter essentiall has to go to the same federal court that tries folks like the "shoe bomber". Those courts are not interested/don't have the time to pursue prosecution of these class "A" misdemeanors so by default nothing is done about it. If FLPMA was amended to give the BLM/USFS/etc. the ability to pusue as a class "B" misdemeanor(no possible jail time) then the cases could and would be tried in lower courts that would be willing to hear them.
 
>More government is not the answer.
>
>Bill

Where did I ask for more government?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 03:00PM (MST)[p]That's very interesting SS36! If they have to go to Federal Court to pursue someone who pleads not guilty to a ticket for what we are talking about, it's no wonder that nothing gets done. Most states, like here in MI, have a District Court that handles misdemeanor cases and the first step of a felony case that are then forwarded on up to the Circuit Court level if enough credible information exists to believe that a felony has occurred. To even have to take what we are talking about up to the Federal Courts is ludicrous with the big stuff that takes up all of their valuable and limited time!
 
sttm just because your a grumpy a55 old man that cant draw a dam elk tag does not mean your right about everything. My first hand experience with ranges that i spend alot of time on prove that an atv does not damage anything if driven on once twice three times even. if your driving over the same trail repeatedly in ashort amount of time then yes a trail begins to burn into it and it begins to damage. just like an elk trail deer trail cow trail mustang trail does...but a guy shed hunting or retrieving game once over an area is not damaging it. if your in southern utah contact me ill take you out and prove to you that once even twice over a spot is not damaging. im so sick of hearing you environmentalist tards crying everytime they see a track in the dirt. go back next spring the track is gone the sage is still there and the grass is still growing.
thing is even if a person walks the same path day in and day out it will damage the habitat to but walkign through a couple times does not damage it. well according to you freakin tards it probably does. you guys better quit walking in the woods your killing grass and sage and destroying habitat.

sttm i dont agree with someone going into a road closed area like that. but i have not had a problem with it. i agree there are far too many roads now days and it is a pain but its just as much there land as yours if they wanna ride there 4 wheeler down an existing trail then so be it. your no better then the peta and anti hunting groups wanting people to stop hunting because it does nto suit there needs. get over it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 03:21PM (MST)[p]theox---Your friggin ranch is more than a little bit different from the public land where thousands of ATVs have access to the fragile land! If your'e so friggin smart and know that the ATVs won't do any harm, why don't you open up your ranch to ANYONE ANYTIME they want to go offroad and also take some pictures of that same land before it opens and a couple years later, LOL!
 
"fragile land" ? That's the wildest thing I have ever heard.

I just don't get why some people are so fanatic about controlling other people. The ATV crowd should have the same rights to the public land as anybody else.

Explain how an ATV harms the "fragile land". Do horses and mules harm the "fragile land"?
 
"fragile land" ? That's the wildest thing I have ever heard.

Then you must not get around very much! We're talking about running heavy machines across areaswhere they have no business being there, not on the roads and marked trails where they're designed and approved for use. Used properly they will do no harm, but anything run continuously in fragile areas is going to do harm sooner or later. Anyone who says different either doesn't care and won't admit it, or isn't out looking at all the damage they're doing. Why do you think more and more restrictions keep getting put on the books? It's because of a small percentage of the people on them that are jackasses and only thinking about themselves and not the whole picture.

"Do horses and mules harm the "fragile land"?

Yes they do, but probably not to the extent that ATVs do. We are not talking about being fanatics about anything, but rather just asking that people use a little common sense that own one.

"The ATV crowd should have the same rights to the public land as anybody else."

Nobody is saying they don't or shouldn't if the machines are used properly and not taken in areas where they have no business going.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-12 AT 09:52PM (MST)[p]ok topdumb are you really that slow? your saying one time over an area ruins it! i drive all over our ranch on atvs no different. public land shed hunters atvs are no diff then mine!!!! plus we range cattle on blm also we dont have damage on the blm range either.i see places 4 wheelers travel and it NEVER EVER stunts the growth unless its driven down alot! like alot as in intentionally making a trail!.NEWS FLASH An ATV TRAIL LOSES VERY VERY LITTLE FEED!!! and most people that go offroad do not drive over the same spot repeatedly looking for sheds thats counterproductive!. our ranch is a popular elk area and deer area . ... ok you know what forget it i cant take it any more you closed minded sniveling punks finally made me blow up. you guys are FREAKIN idiots if you think an atv causes that much damage. ive seen more elk, horse ,jeep, hiking trails from decades ago then i see 4 wheeler trails. (actually alot of jeep trails have grown over a bit because atvs only drive down them now, instead of trucks and jeeps) your precious hiking trails that you freaking idiots walk down is no dam different then an atv trail! still beats the grass down etc... geez i just cant believe you freakin hypocritical knot heads. you sound just like the anti hunting groups! Trying to take peoples freedoms away, just so one tiny little trail is not there. why do you freaking tards think you can dictate what happens on the land! maybe atv enthusiasts want more trails! that does not make them wrong! you guys are no diff then the anti gun and anti hunting groups! Im sick and tired of people thinking their way is the only right way! you guys need to pull your heads outta that deep dark hole between your legs and open your eyes, a two track road loses very little habitat!
the reason you B&Moan about this is because you dont like when someone comes up on you while hunting and they are on an atv! guess what its there land too! PUBLIC LAND! atvs riders have the same rights as you do! ill bet many hikers hate when they walk down a trail and come across a hunter toting a gun! and guess what they push to take your hunting rights away! public land is for multiple use and atvs have their place! atv riders deserve to ride trails and enjoy the public land also!

I would be willing to bet my entir bank account which is not much but its what i have that there is more habitat lost to housing developments and highways, roads and other building then habitat lost to atv trails! my Heck you guys are so blind and ignorant to think atvs cause this immeasurable damage!
 
Quote from theox..." atv riders deserve to ride trails and enjoy the public land also!" With very few exceptions I absolutely agree. I don't know why you keep trying to take this discussion in the direction you seem hellbent in taking it. My argument is relatively simple and doesn't reduce anyones priveledges or abilities to legally recreate with offroad vehicles or any vehicle for that matter. Don't get why you are all worked up.
 
uh probably because taking an atv offroad doesnt hurt it and there is no reason to stiff someone a $8000 machine because they wanted to get off a road. we dont need trails closed like you tards are stating needs to happen. you guys are all falling for the environmentalists agenda! lets close access to all the land so it can stay pristine and no one can enjoy it! i love hiking and i love atv trail riding also! i want both and i see no harm in sometihng that does not cause damage! i know without a doubt taking an atv offroad doesnt hurt anything! elk weigh more then the 4 wheeler btw! so lets deny the elk access to the land also so they dont trample sage brush and grass to death!
 
>uh probably because taking an atv
>offroad doesnt hurt it and
>there is no reason to
>stiff someone a $8000 machine
>because they wanted to get
>off a road. we dont
>need trails closed like you
>tards are stating needs to
>happen. you guys are all
>falling for the environmentalists agenda!
>lets close access to all
>the land so it can
>stay pristine and no one
>can enjoy it! i love
>hiking and i love atv
>trail riding also! i want
>both and i see no
>harm in sometihng that does
>not cause damage! i know
>without a doubt taking an
>atv offroad doesnt hurt anything!
>elk weigh more then the
>4 wheeler btw! so lets
>deny the elk access to
>the land also so they
>dont trample sage brush and
>grass to death!

I am trying to be nice here but am getting frustrated with your redundancy ox.............please, please quote where I said anything about a single further restriction on when and where we can ride our ATVs???
 
there doesnt need to be any laws against driving a 4 wheeler off a road! i never said sole searcher is trying to create a new law, im arguing why put a stiffer penalty on something that is a load of crock to begin with!

there were several posts of guys saying trails need to be closed i didnt pin it all on you. im saying why take someones atv away fro something stupid like that!
 
why not just make hiking off trails illegal too, we will confiscate your shoes so you dont think about going offtrail again! have you seen the damage it causes when someone goes of a trail OMG! then those elk have the nerve to step off the trails and damage the critical plants needed for them to survive! those stupid animals also make big old wallows that just tear te heck out of the precious plants and ground! lets kill them..... geez lets take your vehicle away because you pulled off the side of the road too while we are at it! pulling a vehicle off a side of a road is sstill technically breaking the law so take you 40k truck away too!

seriously i dont see why your so hellbent on taking peoples possessions away cause you think an atv does soooo much damage! when it doesnt!
 
its stupid to make a penalty that harsh for something so piddly. its like arresting someone for going 60mph in a 55 zone!! i guarantee you tards have sped a time or two you broke the law lets throw the book at you shall we!
 
Ok, I'm following you now. You and I will definitely agree to disagree on this one though but perhaps not for the same reasons. Generally I think most if not all existing roads and trails should be open to motor vehicle use.(not solely quads) I think there should be areas where basically unlimited offroad travel is allowed and other areas where it is truly wilderness with NO mechanized means of travel. There is room for both. To a certain extent I agree with you that "mechanical disturbance" of the ground and/or vegetation isn't a bad thing........not always at least. Sometimes tearing up the ground/vegetation is a good thing that leads to healthy regeneration/variation of vegetation types. Massive herds of heavy buffalo used to serve just this purpose and more than one biologist I'm sure wishes they were around to do this "rototilling". I want places where I can ride the quad or drive my 4x4 down the trails or even do some "trompin" offroad but I also want a place to separate myself from even the "noise pollution" of motorized vehicles and enjoy a few acres without tire tracks........is that so wrong? And to the other thing............if a guy doesn't like a law he can do the work to try to change it to his liking. If he just takes the easy route and breaks it then he can pay for doing so.....pretty simple if you ask me.
 
>Ok, I'm following you now.
>You and I will definitely
>agree to disagree on this
>one though but perhaps not
>for the same reasons.
>Generally I think most if
>not all existing roads and
>trails should be open to
>motor vehicle use.(not solely quads)
> I think there should
>be areas where basically unlimited
>offroad travel is allowed and
>other areas where it is
>truly wilderness with NO mechanized
>means of travel. There
>is room for both.
>To a certain extent I
>agree with you that "mechanical
>disturbance" of the ground and/or
>vegetation isn't a bad thing........not
>always at least. Sometimes
>tearing up the ground/vegetation is
>a good thing that leads
>to healthy regeneration/variation of vegetation
>types. Massive herds of
>heavy buffalo used to serve
>just this purpose and more
>than one biologist I'm sure
>wishes they were around to
>do this "rototilling". I
>want places where I can
>ride the quad or drive
>my 4x4 down the trails
>or even do some "trompin"
>offroad but I also want
>a place to separate myself
>from even the "noise pollution"
>of motorized vehicles and enjoy
>a few acres without tire
>tracks........is that so wrong?
>And to the other thing............if
>a guy doesn't like a
>law he can do the
>work to try to change
>it to his liking.
>If he just takes the
>easy route and breaks it
>then he can pay for
>doing so.....pretty simple if you
>ask me.

ok now we are getting somewhere! i think we are seeing a little more eye to eye! ive gotta say there are quite a few wilderness areas here in the west were there is no atv tracks/noise pollution... well unless you count the airplanes flying over head..... plenty of millions of acres for just what you want! fine by me! ive also gotta say ive hiked alot of country and seen not one tire track. ive hiked a few wilderness area and dont see anytire tracks. I personally think wilderness areas are not always a good thing, but that is a whole different convo! I think we are honestly ruining our habitat with all these resrictions from wildfire suppression to etc there is virtually no new growth of plants anymore becaue of all these laws put out whiuch makes dang sure the old pplants never get replaced by new ones. we are losing more future habitat because we dont allow the habitat to restore its self or man to restore habitat. now im getting off subject.. but my point is we dont need to make a ridiculosly harsh penalty for something so small.
 
Well ox!

Strike the Matches!

Maybe you can tell them You don't agree with Arson/Arsonist Law/Rules either!



[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




It's been a long hard ride
Got a ways to go
But this is still the place
That we all call home
 
So the truth comes out...it has nothing to do with damage to the environment. It seems it's all about you just not wanting ATVs in certain areas because you want peace and quiet.

I am all for wilderness areas and abiding by the laws that protect them. But, my friends, we don't need any more frickin laws or stiffer penalties associated with ATVs, horses, hunting, fishing, driving, walking, etc. etc. etc.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-12 AT 07:28AM (MST)[p]I will say this one more time and then will nto respond any more to a person like theox that has to resort to "attacking" a person, rather than just speak to the what the discussion is about. Just two points I will make again. One; we are not talking about the ranch that theox has control of and only a couple machines are ridden regularly. We are talking about public land where thousands of people can go. I ask him again to open up his ranch ANYTIME ANYWHERE and see if there is not a big difference in the landscape in just a year or three! Finally, if there don't need to be harsher penalties to stop what you guys are always talking about with people running all over the place druing shed season and where they shouldn't be during the hunting seasons, what is going to stop it? You can't take the law into your own hands, although every time I see a discussion on ATVs I hear the word "tuneup" and that's exactly what people are referring to. The ATV has it's place, but it should not be run all over the place when there are thousands of them out there and that's why there are restrictions. I hunt nonmotorized units in Wyoming just because of what we're talking about! Please notice I didn't need to make one smartazz comment deriding anyone on this thread to make these points. I've made myself a promise that I will no longer stoop to the level like theox did during his rant and like many do attacking people on this site instead of just presenting a logical side to their argument. I hope I can keep that promise, especially when things get going on the SFW issue! Now I'm out of here until Monday to go mentor kids on their turkey hunts, so theox can come back on here and attack and call me anything he wants!
 
Anyone who even THINKS atv's don't do physical damage to the enviroment are just playing stupid. I can show anyone at any time on any unit in any state what damage "off roading" does by atv's. It doesn't take a biologist to figure out that once that set of tracks are made, here comes the second guy seeing where the first guy went. Then not only do you have an ugly trail (usually going absolutely nowhere), you have just created "canals" for running water to be channeled down because you have killed the watershed vegetation and dug trenched with aggressive tires spinning.
Buy Jeeps people, they keep you on the main roads and the weather inside is WAY more comfortable! ;-)
 
I have no issue with ATV use on approved trails. It's the trail jumpers I have issue with, and they seem to be the vast majority of ATV users. They are breaking the law. I believe stiff finds need to be in place - loss of ATV, hunting rights and large fines. This is not more government but enforcing existing laws.
 
>So the truth comes out...it has
>nothing to do with damage
>to the environment. It
>seems it's all about you
>just not wanting ATVs in
>certain areas because you want
>peace and quiet.
>

There's no "gotcha" to be had here arroyo......I have been transparent as I could be in every statement I have made. Yes.....I want "peace & quiet" where the rules dictate there should be no motorized vehicles. It has everything to do with disruption of the animals and property defacement/habitat damage.
I don't want vehicles where they are prohibited from being and am fine with vehicles being anywhere they are legally allowed to be.........simple as that.



>I am all for wilderness areas
>and abiding by the laws
>that protect them. But,
>my friends, we don't need
>any more frickin laws or
>stiffer penalties associated with ATVs,
>horses, hunting, fishing, driving, walking,
>etc. etc. etc.


If you are "all for abiding by the laws" then what is your aversion to having the laws enforced upon those who don't care to abide by them.' What is your aversion to having a sufficient deterrent so as to effect the descision making of those who don't abide by the rules under the status quo?

And anyone who accross the board equates the type of disturbance a rolling, spinning tire does for the environment to what the disturbance of hooves does is quite frankly either intellectually dishonest or out to lunch. There is no true parrallel there.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-12 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]topdumb.... once again we range on BLM last time i checked THAT IS PUBLIC LAND!!?? second we dont have no tresspassing signs on our private and people do use some of it. guess what no damage! so do you know what blm means? maybe try educating yourself on the land bureaus there is also state lands, and national forest lands also. ever heard of them?

slammy thats bologne... jeeps made a heck of alot of the trails and roads that are here today. heck there are a few jeep trails i wouldnt even take a 4 wheeler on.
come show me some ruined areas from atvs please. then ill show you all the ruined places from people building houses and cabins! then all the ruined habitat from fire suppression and all the ruined habitat from stupid govt agencies that dont allow habitat restoration, after that we can go look at elk trails and wallows, mustang trails, and hiking trails. ...we will see which one ruins more habitat. im sorry the little bit of trails from atvs is not very much habitat! no more then all the hiking trails! you guys are just making a mountain of a problem out of a mole hill.

if atvs cant go off trail then i think we need to quit hiking places also, a 200lb man puts 100 lbs of weight on the precious habitat every single step, about the same as one 4 wheeler tire give or take. either way 100 lbs from a man walking is still way to much for the critical habitat to sustain its self.
look at the damage the dang hiking and atv trails cause! lets not even go into the woods anymore we are causing way to much damage, lets talk to the wildlife and ask them to stay clear of the woods so the habitat doesnt get ruined look at these eye sore hiking and atv trails. so terrible!

6038trail2.jpg

2005atv2.jpg
 
Both nice photos ox but both trails are on flat ground with heavy groundcover and obvious no real "runoff" to cause erosion down tire tracks. My biggest gripe of the whole thing is particularly folks riding offroad through wintering grounds during a time of year when our already struggling mule deer are at a "tipping" point health/weather-wise. This in particular is what I would like to address. And yes I do think fire suppression is one of the biggest enemies of healthy ecosystems across the west.......followed closely by developement and inseparably tied to eachother. A double-edged sword.
 
Absolutely increase the fine amount. It is an illegal activity that needs to be enforced in one fashion or another.

Excavator
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-12
>AT 10:10 PM (MST)
>,
>a 200lb man puts 100
>lbs of weight on the
>precious habitat every single step,
>about the same as one
>4 wheeler tire
------------------------------------------------------------------
thats' awsome lol, where did you learn math? Did you make it through high school? That might be the dumbest, drunk math equation I think I've ever read! I LITERALLY laughed out loud WHEN I READ IT!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-12 AT 05:55PM (MST)[p]You and me both hangingmeat, LOL! One step by a 200# guy is like an ATV tire on the landscape---give me a friggin break! I was specifically addressing the "PRIVATE" property of his ranch in two posts and now he comes back with more BS talking down like he is so good at all the time and then posts like I don't know what BLM and NFS lands are when I hunt on them every year. No sense even debating the problem when someone says walking is like riding a big ATV around!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-12 AT 09:38PM (MST)[p]

uhhh yea ok .....yeah each leg on the ground would put 100 lbs on each foot. durrrrr. 2 legs weight(standing upright) = 200 lbs one leg = 100 lbs. k following me ? so actually when walking your putting 200 lbs on each foot.... how is the math wrong?

most atvs weigh in at 400-800lbs with rider and depending on what atv you have) divided by 4(tires) =100-200 lbs whats stupid about that? walk down a trail your putting the same weight on the that particular spot as an atv will. enlighten me how thats drunk math? i bet if you constantly walk up and down the exact foot prints it would "damage" the forage as bad as driving a four wheelr back and forth. as proved in my pics above! explain how my math is jacked up? yes i know a 4 wheeler rolls and and a man steps im just saying your putting the same pressures on the forage as an atv does
honda rancher wieghs about 550 plus 200 man = 750 /4 = 187 ish per tire...
topdumb i knew you couldnt resist in writing back. you obviously dont know what blm and nf are if you cant get the jist that we range cattle on blm not just private. you keep saying its different then my ranch well guess what part of ranch is blm blm= public land..... how is that any different then other public land???
 
I'm not a big ATV enthusiast. They do however have their place and that should be on legally designated trails and roadways.

Eldorado
 
Weight divided by square inches of footprint is important...think about snowshoes.

Next is the issue re weight in motion. Think skid marks when a car stops suddenly. I can stop on ice faster than the ATV even at the same speed.

Finally is texture where the friction occurs. ATV tires resemble drill bits displacing soil and forage.

Looking at scarred terrain is where the rubber literally meets the illegal trail.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-30-12 AT 10:15AM (MST)[p]theox---Two last questions to you directly that I probably shouldn't even get into when I said I was done, but I'm like you in one way and that's that I'm a stubborn SOB! I know you run cattle on OUR public ground and it's for ridiculously low prices, but again I will say I'm not talking about anything but your "private" property. Open all of it up to full ATV use and I'll win the bet that you will see a difference in the land within a few years. Just multiply your use times however many more use it and it increases the chance of damage. If you won't admit that simple fact, then there is no reason for any of us to be having this discussion with you. From my personal experiences in Wyoming and from comments made by a lot of other hunters, I believe a huge percentage of ranchers act like OUR public lands are their personal property. Many try to bluff and keep people off of it as if it were their deeded land. There are millions of acres of blocked public lands that if corner jumping alone was allowed would be open to hunting and travel by foot. Guess who is strongly against allowing that! Yep, a large percentage of ranchers that have land that I just described and want to hog it all for their own use! You go right ahead and stay with your "theory" of a footprint being the same as a heavy ATV with rider rolling along as the other members mentioned because you're flat out wrong. Another member stated earlier in this thread that anyone that won't admit a vehicle is harder on terrain than a person walking isn't admitting fact, but I still won't call you names like you're doing on here! My question for you is this. How many acres of "private deeded land" do you own and how many acres of OUR public land do you graze your cattle on where you have no control of other people using the land? I hear of ranchers, and even know of one firsthand in Wyoming, that state "their" ranch contains 100,000 acres, for example. Look on a map and half or less is "their" deeded land and the rest is public land that they either won't allow access to or will call the law if someone trys to "corner jump" to use the public land that is "OURS" and not solely theirs to use and control! You also mantioned others use your private deeded land because you don't post it. What is the Utah trespass law regarding posting or not posting your land to keep the public off that "deeded" land because I don't feel like taking time to look it up?
 
X2 STTM....

We all want access to an area, but not to every single canyon in the state of Tardville. Alot of "spotsman" believe its their god given right to make a trail across the entire range.

GET OFF YOUR AZZ AND HUNT!!

You may find its very peacful and you see more game when you get off the road. The most frustrating thing hunting public lands is when I do just that. Then some Tard rides on a closed trail and/or makes his own and rides into a closed area.

Happens every year in the land of Tards.
 
IMHO, I don't think increased fines are the answer. You may increase the fines but without enforcement it won't do much. Further, I think its safe to say that with increased power will come a greater potential for increased abuse of power.

There surely is a problem. Lot's of interest groups are competing for use of public lands - in the field and in the legislature. I applaud your action, and hope it works. Have you enlisted any sportsman's groups?
 
>IMHO, I don't think increased fines
>are the answer. You may
>increase the fines but without
>enforcement it won't do much.
> Further, I think its
>safe to say that with
>increased power will come a
>greater potential for increased abuse
>of power.
>
>There surely is a problem.
>Lot's of interest groups are
>competing for use of public
>lands - in the field
>and in the legislature.
>I applaud your action, and
>hope it works. Have
>you enlisted any sportsman's groups?
>

Basically I have seen a problem that I percieve could in the future impact my ability and freedom to recreate on our federal lands if something is done about it. Muttering under my breath won't help, simply griping about it on the forums won't help, and other rememdies(tune-ups) while perhaps attractive at times could have some unenticing personal ramifications. Right now I am simply asking for all of your individual input and perception of the problem(or lack thereof in some cases) We all know enforcement for this an many things is a compound problem. What I am seeking is to educate myself about some of the issues/deficiencies in the system to see if there is something that can be done to reduce the problem in some capacity without reducing our freedoms/rights in the process. Of course there is often a myriad of mitigating or limiting issues and factors.....some of which have already come to light in my investigation of the issue. I may have also found some very achievable things that can be done legislatively to improve enforcement without negatively impacting anyone except those who operate illegally. At the end of the day I may only succeed in gaining a little more knowledge than I had at the outset but that in itself wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I just know silently complaining about it won't accomplish anything. As far as reaching out to sportsmen's groups I am just getting started with this issue and am currently still looking to basically define some ways of improving the situation. I have spoken with the head of the MDF and will be structuring at his request an email with some of my findings on the issue as it in a large way revolves around wintering mule deer. I understand it isn't often popular to be the "squeaky wheel"........fortunately I only truly value being popular when my kids meet me at the door like I'm a rockstar. Beyond that popularity isn't something that is very high on the effort list.
 
Lack of enforcement is a problem. Funding and subsequent man power limit the amount of enforcement.

In any case, either the problem decreases or in short order all federal lands are going to end up completely off limits. People in thier quest to exercise their rights to use their land--without respect to laws and regulations--tend to shoot themselves (and others) in the foot in the long run.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-30-12 AT 03:14PM (MST)[p]I love a good atv as much as anyone but when it comes to atvs and public land I think the OX is incorrect!

I see the illegal trails that were made above pleasant grove when I was a kid guess what there still there. The bookcliffs is literally littered with them. Almost every place I go there are thousands of miles of illegal atv trails and every year there are more and more.

The state doesn't need more laws though they need the same laws with teeth! Then the guys like the Ox who think its there right to drive where ever they please need to be made an example by fining the crap out of them when they get caught. Thats my opinion and it isnt going to change because Ive simply seen to much damage done in my lifetime.


avatar_2528.jpg
 
+1 SWBM! And that's why I hunt in a nonmotorized unit out in Wyoming. They are forbidden off the main gravel roads. That's the way I hope it stays because the area would be ruined in a few days if you could hunt it other than by on foot! Guys I talk to that only road hunt complain there are no animals, while we're having good success by walking a mile or three from that traffic!
 
I applaud your action SS. I would like to see sportsman's groups input on this, as offenders with rifles reflect poorly on all hunters. A little bit of crap ruins a lot of ice cream. Conversely, we have separate ATV regulations for hunters here in Idaho which are more restrictive than those for non-hunters. This is also BS.
 
Fine the crap outta them!How self-serving,lazy and inconsiderate can someone be to just go riding out across the prairie or forest because they're too freakin lazy to walk!Talk about selfish?!Wow!Keep your friggin 4-wheeler on the trail where it belongs just like everyone else keeps their truck on the trails.It's a freakin vehicle!!How hard is that to understand!Quit thinking about yourself and think about someone else for a change.Consideration for other people is what it boils down to.And those that ride their ATV's where they shouldn't be have none.Period.End of story. It's not always about YOU.Doesn't the guy who just hiked in 5-10 miles on foot deserve some repect?Put some teeth in these laws and fine the crap outta these jackasses.BTW,I am an ATV owner.
 
You guys who want to give the government (e.g., law enforcement)more ways to intimidate and abuse "we the people" are what's ruining this country. I haven't seen the damage you guys describe and I am in *A Lot* of public land on a regular basis.

After reading some of the posts lately about stuff like this ATV thread and the Nugent hater thread, I see there are a lot of granola bar types posting on MM that don't have much real hunting or ranching experience. Rather, they are the "more regulation, more government, activist" type. The 243 thread was another example...
 
>You guys who want to give
>the government (e.g., law enforcement)more
>ways to intimidate and abuse
>"we the people" are what's
>ruining this country. I
>haven't seen the damage you
>guys describe and I am
>in *A Lot* of public
>land on a regular basis.
>
>
>After reading some of the posts
>lately about stuff like this
>ATV thread and the Nugent
>hater thread, I see there
>are a lot of granola
>bar types posting on MM
>that don't have much real
>hunting or ranching experience.
>Rather, they are the "more
>regulation, more government, activist" type.
>The 243 thread was another
>example...

I don't know you sir so I will refrain from making an uneducated, presumptive comment on your level of "experience".
However I will say that based purely on your comments here you either have spent very little time offtrail(outside of wilderness areas) in the last 10-15yrs or you have a medical issue with your neck that prevents you from looking downwards as you walk offtrail. Perhaps you simply don't hike in the winter range. I honestly find it very hard to believe you haven't seen an increased amount of motor vehicle tracks where they legally should not be if none of the above apply. Yes I like granola bars.......especially the crunchy honey & oat ones from Nature Valley. They have been in my daypack for most of the approximately 150+ foot miles I have already logged this year hiking offtrail. Alot of the work ethic I have in the woods can be attributed to the countless hours I spent during my childhood bucking hay, mending fence, digging ditch & tending livestock. I have personally been responsible for field care and extraction of over 120 bull elk in my lifetime......either for myself, family & friends or clients. You might be more well recieved and respected in life if you arm yourself with some facts before you make baseless claims about the nature and experience of "we the people" I guarantee if you do, you will find more common ground than you would expect to.
 
SS36---Good reply to somebody who makes "assumptions" like that out on a website, as I'm sure you've heard the old saying about people that assume things, LOL! I've probably killed more big game animals and helped with many others in my 60 years of hunting than that dude can count to because it's well over 100! All but one were DIY on foot with no ATVs even thought about for any of the hunts. Your last sentence was spot on and I will say no more because you said it all in your post.
 
theox,

I hope you are not a fair representative of the Utah educational system. You are confusing weight with pressure. Not the same thing. Stick to ranching, I assume you are better at that. Just make sure you have someone else count your cattle for you.
 
mulecreek---Your last sentence was funny because it brought back a memory of when my Dad and I hunted a small ranch down in Texas a couple decades ago. We were talking to the Mexican old timer that owned the place and Dad asked him how many cows he had on the place. His reply was that he never counted them because if the count didn't come up the same each time he'd start worrying, LOL!
 
SS36,

Great post!..woo hoo!, high five!

You claim to have experience. I think that's great. Will you also admit while you are telling everyone about yourself that you are a "more governmenmt and regulation" type of person? The government or an association can solve anything? Are you for traffic camera's at intersections that give you a ticket if you pull over the white line? Should we increase those fines to vehicle loss?


I am totally against increasing fines. IMO, it will cause law enforcement abuse and will not slow down the people who habitually violate laws. I would actually like to see less restrictions on retrieving dead game on a motorized vehicle. To each his own.

Have a good day.
 
arroyobuck and Pre64 make valid points. The whole point of this thread is to get government to "fix" what is bothering someone. I call this more, bigger government. We have threads on this site almost weekly complaining about the abuse of power of some government official already. That abuse of power is every bit as real as the damage ATV's can do.

I'm not opposed to eforcing the law, and fining those who break it. The same even applies to breaking the speedlimit, which I still do on occassion, regardless of the punitive fines. And while on occassion I have found illegal ATV trails impacting my own enjoyment of the outdoors, I am not willing to go overboard in attempting to prosecute the violators.

My personal observations indicate that most illegal trails are made by folks out recreating, not hunting. Hunters clearly are some part of this problem. There is a whole other segment of the population that doesn't hunt that has no problem with off-road trail making, and really doesn't care about the habitat, either.

The fines currently in place are sufficient to make the point and help educate the uninformed. And they allow some small measure of relief to the inadvertant violator who believes he is riding on a proper trail.
Keep this concern in perspective with the remainder of our laws and social issues. Harsh punishment for murder still hasn't eradicated that crime. Huge fines for drug use aren't exactly winning that war either. High ATV fines won't solve the problem, but are simply a step down a path to total closure.

Take the initiative out in the field and talk to those seen violating the off-road rules. Don't rely on the government to avoid every unpleasant conversation. We will only have success if the average sportsmen speaks up and confronts violators politely. Just letting someone know you are aware of their infraction will motivate them to comply (more) in the future. We are all better off in the average sportsmen gets involved and puts peer pressure on the violators. The government will do little to change behavior, regardless of the size of the fine.
Bill
 
>SS36,
>
>Great post!..woo hoo!, high five!
>
>You claim to have experience.
>I think that's great.
>Will you also admit while
>you are telling everyone about
>yourself that you are
>a "more governmenmt and regulation"
>type of person? The
>government or an association can
>solve anything? Are you
>for traffic camera's at intersections
>that give you a ticket
>if you pull over the
>white line? Should we
>increase those fines to vehicle
>loss?
>
>
>I am totally against increasing fines.
> IMO, it will cause
>law enforcement abuse and will
>not slow down the people
>who habitually violate laws.
>I would actually like to
>see less restrictions on retrieving
>dead game on a motorized
>vehicle. To each his
>own.
>
>Have a good day.


You are very long on rhetoric and short on facts. But I'm willing to guess you are probably a pretty good fella that has seen better times and just have a well-earned suspicion of government in general. I can assure you that with some very narrow exceptions I share those suspicions. I don't look to government to help me live my life as you suggest I do. Were it legal to do so I would personally hook a chain to my bumper and remove every redlight camera I could find. I don't get involved in government(at the ballot box or elsewhere) to see what I can do to get government to do more for me. Unfortunately I have to get involved in an effort to try to limit what government can do TO me. Obviously I think government has a place but more often than not anymore it seems that place starts with the letters "mis". There is a reason in this conversation here I haven't suggest adding even one more law enforcement officer in the woods. There is a reason I haven't advocated for further restriction on when/where you can ride/drive. I don't feel anything I have advocated here is in line of what you accuse me to be. Continue to attack me if you will, I have a nice thick hide for you to pick away at. But in your efforts to do so all it makes it seem to me is that you have your own agenda and unlike me it is one you aren't willing to be open and forthcoming about. IMO the only thing that causes "law enforcement abuse" is hiring or maintaining the employement of officers/rangers/agents that are of poor moral calibre and possibly insufficient recourse for citizens to counter such situations as they arise. I have my own reasons to have reservations about a percentage of L.E. officers but will adamantly maintain that most of them are great folks that take their responsibility to US very seriously. I have yet to meet a ranger or warden who wasn't first a hunter/fisherman as well and consider themselves to still be. So based on your latest post I take it you don't support the higher penalties we here in colorado chose for poachers of trophy animals?

Your last point I wholeheartedly agree with regarding retrieval of game. With few exceptions(wilderness areas,etc) I think that offtrail travel for the sole specific purpose of retrieving downed game should absolutely be allowed. Since there is a carcass on one end of the route of travel I think it is a less easy to abuse priveledge and doesn't inordinately pose an increased enforcement problem. That is my current perception anyhow.
 
Llamapacker,
While I have some areas in which I might disagree with you I appreciate the lucidity of your comments.....well structured and thoughtful. I agree that at the very end of things No penalty will ever be enough to deter the most hardened violators. However I do advocate that we should do what we can to deter the maximum number of potential violators without punishing or restricting the "honest guy". At the end of the day that is what I am really about. Based on your statements I would have to believe you also did not/do not support the "samson law"? I believe most would agree it has definitely had some value in decreasing poaching of trophy animals here in colorado whithout unnecessarily penalizing the average honest guy.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-01-12 AT 09:25PM (MST)[p]ok top dumb let me explain this slowly for you. OUr land is not posted and we dont restrict access. as long as gates stay closed we have no probs with public using it and they do! like i said before, the atvs travelling over the country one two and three times doesnt damge it! yes constant use does!

you guys that crying about ranchers ranging on public land for very little money is absurd! let me explain. THe amount of work we have put into habitat restoration on state lands( because blm doesnt allow it) is far more then any of you will ever do. second the spring developments we have done outweigh everyone of your whining punks time spent helping the range(which the average person contribution is usually nothing!)(ill bet topdumb has never done any habitat restorations or water developments have you!) yet you get to benefit from the ranchers hard work. next we have spent our money and time ripping in miles and miles of pipeline that also benefit you ungrateful punks. the reason there are even widlife in some parts of our range have a lot to do with our habitat work and our water development! third! there is no way wildlife can be controlled to eat all of the surplus forage on public land. we can control and regulate what our cattle eat, by moving pastures, when the feed gets to a certain pt. there will always be surplus feed on range lands the wildlife cant eat it all. I agree there are probably some ranchers that abuse it but not all... every group has there bad apples.

I know you guys all probably think im a stupid punk, but im far from that, think what you want it really doesnt bother me, i think similar things about you. I just know what i have seen first hand and i can guarantee atvs do not cause the damage you guys are over exaggerating about. i know without a doubt atvs can have the potential to cause damage, im saying you guys are making it out to be a bigger problem then it really is. atv damage is minimal when compared to habitat loss from fire suppression, and public roads, and housing developments etc... I just really dont think we need to have such harsh penalties for such piddly dink things. I hate when a hunter blazes up and down the trails as much as the next guy, i have had a ton of stalks ruined by atvs, but its public land. do i think a guy needs to ride his atv all over public land? no i dont but i know a couple times over it doesnt hurt it so it doesnt bother me. I have seen first hand what it takes to kill sagebrush and i know its an awful lot! atv trails ar so minute there is not very much habitat lost to them. Now i can see if there are trails spiderwebbed like crazy every 100 yards, then yes that becomes a problem. I just dont see that in my neck of the woods. a few roads here and there is really not taking much habitat. Im sorry its just not!
if my math is correct a 4 foot wide trail going for 2 miles is equivalent to 1 acre! 1 acres is i beleive 43560 sq ft. take a 4wheeler trail and we will say 4 feet wide and 10890 feet long 1 mile is what 5280 ish ft? so a 4 foot wide swath over 2 miles long = 1 acre of land! ok now most atv trails are two track so really its about 2-3 feet of beaten down habitat. say if the tire tracks on the trail are 1 ft wide each that would be 4 miles of atv trail = to 1 acre! see what i mean piddly dink amount of land lost to atv use! using the 4 foot wide trail method, 1000 miles of atv trails = 480 acres of lost habitat!( hopefully my math is correct im a bit exhausted from working all day) 1 mile by 1 mile square is 640 acres so 1000 miles of atv trails doesnt even equal one section of land it takes over 1250 miles of atv trail to equal a section of land(1 mile by 1 mile). i guess i can see where there is so much atv damage you guys are so right!! how many millions of acres of public land in utah alone? well i believe the blm alone is somewhere around 22 million acres. not sure on forest or state. so i would have to say you guys are OVER EXAGERRATING THE PROBLEM!!!!
 
You, Sir, are underexagerrating the problem as much or more than we are overexaggerating it! Say what you want from here on out as I will not respond to someone who can't remain civil and has to resort to the language you do.
 
ok well i showed you guys what it takes to create 1 acre of habitat lost to 4 wheeler trails. You guys can continue to over exaggerate the problem all you want. thats fine, i gave my opinion and i stick by it. If i was you guys id be way more pissed off about the amount of habitat lost to fire suppression then 4 wheelers! the amount lost to fire suppression every year alone outweighs what four wheelers have caused in 20 years. if utah had 10,000 miles of 4 wheeler trails thats = less then 5000 acres, and thats less then 0.0002 % of the blm land in utah. ( just the blm! All im saying is putting harsher penalties on something like off trail trail atv use is equivalent of being arrested for going 60 mph in a 55 mph zone. it doesnt make sense, its not worth the extra law enforcement, the paperwork, or the fiscal aspect of itetc. spend the time on the real criminals.

Just becuase you guys buy into the liberal enviro BS doesnt mean your right. i just showed you the actual numbers of lost habitat from 4 wheelers its MINUTE!

Actually, as a matter of fact for atv enthusiasts its a very small percentage of the public land resource that they are actually using!
 
While I couldn't agree more that wildland fire suppression is a very huge and real problem as it relates to maintaining healthy ecosystems and forage for deer/elk............the habitat impact is an indirect concern in my efforts here. My most specific concern is how illicit offtrail motor vehicle use disrupts wintering game at a critical time of year. I am quite simply looking for ways to mitigate this without unduly restricting EVERYONE's access to our public land in the process. Regarding habitat impacts of a vehicle tire I am simply stating that they do have an impact on the land......could be benefitial at times and could be harmful at times. The bottom line is we as operators don't have the knowledge to decide when and where either one of those situations occur. That is why we spend tax money on biologists to make those recommendations. I think we all can agree that our mule deer have enough problems as it is with degredation and loss of valuable winter range primarily thru fire supression and direct loss through development.
All other things aside I don't think you would be appreciative of me intentionally riding my quad thru the middle of your herd of bedded cattle on a frigid february morning even if I wasn't damaging the pasture they were bedded in would you? I for one don't buy any of the lib-enviro stuff you refer to. I am merely looking at ways to make effective enforcement more of a possibility when it comes to this........WITHOUT more restrictions on when/where we can ride/hike. Not sure why this is so hard for some folks to grasp.

Two directions I am looking into right now..........

Address the "Federal Lands Policy & Management Act of 1976" to allow the BLM to write a LESSER class of misdemeanor ticket for minor infractions such as offtrail motor vehicle use, illegal woodcutting, etc. As it stands right now the BLM(per FLPMA) MUST issue a higher "Class A" misdemeanor ticket which entitles the cited(alleged) offendor to an undue level of legal recourse and amongst other things can actually increase taxpayer cost to "try" these essentially minor cases. In this case by decreasing the severity of the ticket we might be able to prosecute offendors in a more efficent & cost effective manor.(A "Class A" misdemeanor automatically entitles alleged offenders the right to a jury trial) With a "Class B" misdemeanor ticket, citations would be handled essentially the same way as a minor traffic ticket.

#2.... Look at petitioning the Colorado Wildlife Commission to increase the penalties for "wildlife harrassment" when a motor vehicle is involved both monetarily and in the number of points that can be assessed against one's hunting/fishing priveledges. Tied to this would be that IF you were caught operating a motor vehicle offtrail illegally and you are in possession of shed antlers, possession of the shed antlers would be "prima facie" evidence that harrassment has occured thus justifying a wildlife violation. This would be a tool availble to our game wardens to deal with gross or repeat offendors but not be mandatory so as to continue to allow the investigating officer to use discretion as to whether a warning or lesser citation should be given. I believe this is in keeping with my belief that we are trying to affect a change in behavior and not simply be punitive. I believe doing something like this may be a method to decrease interference/disturbance/displacement of wintering animals without unnecessarily restricting access like a complete closure would. This would also not reduce ability to lobby for offtrail game retrieval where appropriate.

Would love to hear any of your thoughts regarding these two proposals. If you have an issue with either of them I would also be interested in hearing some well-founded reasons why. I will post this in the other thread as well.
 
ss36

While I appreciate your candor about what you are trying to do, I really think you are throwing a rock at the hornet's nest.

What exactly do you mean with this statement "entitles the cited...to an undue level of legal recourse" ? Are you trying to spin this in the legal system as a minor violation, so that citaions can be easily prosecuted? You are claiming we have a huge problem where significant amounts of damage is occurring. Seems to me that if a vilotion is already a Class A Misdemeanor, it is already a very, very severe penalty.

I sure as heck don't want the government hiring a bunch of traffic cops patroling our forests to give out a "bunch" of "minor" citations. These guys would end up having a "quota" just like they do in the city. This would cause a whole assortment of problems two of which are 1)abuse from bad apple cops and 2) creating a revenue stream for the state that would breed more and more of this type stuff (which leads to bigger government).

Ox has made some good points about the amount of damage that is occuring. I personally do not see significant damage either. I see more tracks from horses and cattle than ATVs. It is my opinion it is all negligible in the grand scheme of things.

I think you would be better off by using a more focused campaign targeting the real abuse areas that you have described than trying to do a broad shotgun approach (legislation) that ultimately would have unintended negative consequences (e.g., giving the state and envrinment groups more power, precedent setting, etc.).


P.S. As a side note, IMO, there is no such thing as "undue level of legal recourse" when the state is accusing you of an offense.
 
I'll be the first to admit upfront that I am not an attorney.....heck not even a college degree. I graduated from a public highschool. Ergo I may not always utilize the best vernacular to articulate my point. What I mean by "undue level of recourse" is that I don't think every citation written should entitle me to a trial by a jury of my peers. It is my understanding that the right to trial by jury is to be available when a person has been accused of committing a crime where the penalty includes the possibility of imprisonment. I certainly agree that a jury trial should be available to the accused in these cases. I don't feel that a jury trial is appropriate level of recourse for someone accused of a "minor" infraction of which the penalty does not include the potential of jailtime. It is my understanding that on a resounding basis this is in line across the board with existing law. The only reason these tickets are not written as a minor class B offense is because FLPMA only proscribes enforcement that includes the possibility of jailtime........by default making the BLM only be able to write "Class A" tickets.
BTW.......the BLM does not benefit from any money generated from fines.......they are not allowed to keep/collect that money.

Giving the BLM the legal ability to write class "B" tickets by amendment to the FLPMA seems a very reasonable and fiscally sound thing to do without effecting those who follow the rules. It also promotes uniformity with other areas of law enforcement...USFS/STATE/LOCAL who all write these tickets almost exclusively as class "B" misdemeanors.

So driving your quad thru the bedding areas of wintering mule deer is "negligible in the grand scheme of things"??? I couldn't agree less.


I have outlined my suggestion for a "narrowly tailored" approach to the area of concern specific to mule deer in example "B" of my previous post.

Example "A" was an issue worth fleshing out and possibly seeking sponsorship of legislation that would neither be precedent setting(almost all the other agencies currently have the abilities that would be allowed thru an amendment of FLPMA) or give any environmental group more power. If you feel otherwise I would encourage you to cite specifically how it would.

Neither means of recourse would even have the mechanics to allow the hiring of a single additional law enforcement officer............merely assist them in serving you and I better.

Do you think someone who gets a ticket for throwing a beer can out of his truck window should be entitled to a jury trial on your dime???? Or a $50 ticket for cutting trees without a permit? On the same token if you were to get a ticket for either of these things do you feel it is appropriate to face a possible year in jail for either of the same offenses?? According to the current system that is exactly what is available on either side of the coin.
 
ss36,

I can't keep up with you. So are you trying to say you want it to be a lessor crime than currently is so that tickets can be issued and prosecuted easily? If that's the case, you won't be able to achieve what's in the title of your post (BTW I am glad you can't do that). It sounds the net of all of this is that you want it easy for the cops to write tickets to ATV riders if they get a wheel off the trail either on purpose or accidently so that it scares the ATV riders into a different behavior.

BTW, I have no agenda here. I'm just tired of everytime I turn around there are new regulations that are hard to keep track of. I would however like to see more of the public land opened up to responsible ATV access. The ways the laws are now, it's not really worth having one. This is caused by initiatives such as yours.
 
>ss36,
>
>I can't keep up with you.
> So are you trying
>to say you want it
>to be a lessor crime
>than currently is so that
>tickets can be issued and
>prosecuted easily? If that's
>the case, you won't be
>able to achieve what's in
>the title of your post
>(BTW I am glad you
>can't do that). It
>sounds the net of all
>of this is that you
> want it easy for
>the cops to write tickets
>to ATV riders if they
>get a wheel off the
>trail either on purpose or
>accidently so that it scares
>the ATV riders into a
>different behavior.
>
>BTW, I have no agenda here.
> I'm just tired of
>everytime I turn around there
>are new regulations that are
>hard to keep track of.
>I would however like to
>see more of the public
>land opened up to responsible
>ATV access. The ways
>the laws are now, it's
>not really worth having one.
> This is caused by
>initiatives such as yours.

I'm sorry you can't keep up with me.......I've simplified it as much as possible. If you want to advocate for unmitigated ATV use on our public lands that is your right. If you want to be an apologist for illegal offtrail riding.....that is also your perogative. I never said I wanted it to have a lower penalty anywhere in this conversation. If I can allow for penalties up to and/or including confiscation of the vehicle used to commit the offense I would certainly lobby for that. If you want to lobby against it........that is your right as well. If you are content sitting on the sidelines and letting non-sportsmen have all the control of our future that too is your perogative. We the people are ultimately in control of how our government works for us. If you want to sit by and cede that controlling imput to those that would like to paint you out of what you love to do then you cannot cry about a government that works "against" you. What have you done to lobby for the opening of land for responsible ATV use??? What have you done to lobby against closures that have gone into place already?? I suspect you are guilty of doing the same as I.........nothing but bitching. I'm growing tired of that route while seeing my outdoor heritage attacked and restricted without having a voice along the way. I am standing up from the sidelines.....at the end of the day at least I can be proud of doing just that if nothing more.

You come here and mischaracterize my intent.(or simply miscomprehend) You question mine and others level of experience without a brick of foundation to do so. I don't find it much of a stretch to conclude you might just be one of those that are part of the problem with your outright reticence to admit there is an issue let alone suggest a different path to mitigate the problem.

I'm sorry we don't get eachother here, I'm sure you are a fine fellow who loves the outdoors and share a similar heritage as I.
 
ss36 wow is all i gotta say! so you find it ok to HIKE through mule deer bedding areas(unbelievable, that is so hypocritical!) but not ride an atv! ok so now your whole agenda is clear! I was wrong it had nothing to do with liberal crap at all, infact it has NOTHING to do with habitat loss, or the protection of wildlife! It is merely a way to keep 4 wheelers outta your shed hunting areas! to cut competition with atv shed hunters and atv big game hunters! It is a selfish request that you have tried to spin into sounding like its for the greater good. I just debunked your damaging great amounts of habitat cry, and now your true agenda has surfaced! you know dang well now that the atv trails are in fact a very very very very small amount of habitat loss. I dont see why you would continue to push for harsher penalties for something so minor. unless it benefits you and only you! I for one see no problem with giving atv riders .0002 % of public land to ride! Hunters cant haave it all, its for everyone to enjoy! hikers, cyclists, atvers, hunters, campers, bird watchers etc.
wow you should join sfw you could be dons little spinster apprentice!!!

to answer the question about driving your atv through my herd of cattle that are bedded, i see no problems with that as long as your not chasing or intentionally harassing them. We drive through them while there bedded all the time to check on them, herd them etc during winter months. If our habitat was not so terrible for mule deer they could handle a little pressure on them too.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-02-12 AT 05:28PM (MST)[p]i understand your pushing for harsher penalties for "illegal" atv use, but you yourself admitted it probably doesnt cause any damage if traveled on only once or twice like shed hunters do. you trying to cut backt he majority of shed hunters so you can hike the hills because you prefer hiking for them. all you guys are saying is if one guy sees another track he will follow it but thats bull and you know it.most guys that atv shed hunt do not follow another guys trail! then you change your focus to say it is harassing wildlife, but you are able to walk through the same areas because well i dont know why you think hiking through is ok.... point is you obviously just want the areas to yourself and you know most guys shed hunt on atvs so it would cut out 75% of lazy shed hunters.
 
Net-Net:

Some people want to limit ATV use on public tax payer land because it makes their goals harder to achieve. These people use "habitat damage" and "winter stress" as the buzz word to stir up emotions and make the problem sound way bigger than it really is.

It mainly comes down to selfishness
 
Theox, Arroyobuck, did you even read the original post? You're making yourselves look retarded. ShowThemToMe, from what I have experienced, you hit it right on the head for public land in Utah. Off-road wheeling, and wheeling in closed areas is definitely a problem in the hunting and shed hunting world. Some poeple on this forum act like we're trying to take away all their rights and privileges, trying to end American freedoms as we know it. Give me a break... Yes, America is a free land, but this is a HUNTING forum. As a HUNTER I am very concerned about the impact these factors are having on hunting and game populations. I believe there are many factors why the deer populations in Utah are low, but I think that four-wheelers, especially off-road drivers on winter range, are one of the big players in the decline.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-02-12 AT 09:59PM (MST)[p]backpackin sorry buddy did you read the BS headline to this thread? to me you sound like a " retard" overexaggerating the damage atvs cause. you have gotta be an idiot if you really think atv shed hunters are the " big player" in the decline of the mule deer population! the decline started in the 70's long before atvs went offroad. Ive told ya fire suppression= no new growth which in turn = bad habitat= decline in mule deer. you guys are blaming atv riders for habitat loss. i just showed you the math about atv trails and how many miles of trails it takes per acre. atvs are clearly not a "big player"in mule deer decline. tell me how .0002 % of public lands can dramatically cause mule deer decline! ive told you before, i have watched very closely where i have gone off trail on our ranch and it takes constant use to pack a trail down not 1 or two times over it with an atv/ i promise shed hunters are not causing this mass hysteria of habitat loss and mule deer decline!
 
oh and backpackin your handle says it all, apparently you dont like atvs either for the same reason as ss36 they probably go into your shed hunting and hunting grounds huh! you obviously only care about yourself when trying to make an atv rider that ventures off a trail go to the gallows. Im pretty sure i read the original post as he is talking hunting rights stripped, 10,000 fines, court cases, for something so small! what a joke! im sorry but the more inches you give to the govt groups the more they take. right now its atvs at the gallows wait til its hiking trails! cant go off designated hiking trails etc. and dont say thats wont happen because there are plenty of people that would love to do it! already people trying to ban shooting on public lands, hunting will be next, each inch you give adds up and before long its a mile!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-02-12 AT 10:15PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-02-12 AT 10:14?PM (MST)

>LAST EDITED ON May-02-12
>AT 09:59?PM (MST)
>
i
>just showed you the math
>about atv trails and how
>many miles of trails it
>takes per acre. atvs are
>clearly not a "big player"in
>mule deer decline. tell me
>how .0002 % of public
>lands can dramatically cause mule
>deer decline!

Yes ox.......yes you did show us your math....that is a fact.

P.s. Before you go casting dispersions about someone's handle you might consider your own handle....just sayin'.
 
umm yeah whats wrong with the ox? its part of my last name. just saying backpackin is obviously a backpackin fool so granted he likely is against atvs.

well hopefully ss36 you can take that math and actually use it! i see you didnt deny the reason you are pushing this BS is because of your selfishness. you cant fight the facts that 4 wheeler trails are a very small percentage of habitat, and the fact that a 4 wheeler doesnt cause the damage you claimed. sorry even you admitted once over likely doesnt do any damage! :)
 
theox
May-02-12, 10:27 PM (MST)
88. "RE: Use ATV's illegally.........Lose Your ATV!"
umm yeah whats wrong with the ox? its part of my last name. just saying backpackin is obviously a backpackin fool so granted he likely is against atvs.

***Do you have it in you to make one friggin post without calling somebody a fool, etc.? That post, and just about every other one of your posts, is a rant and that's all you do! FYI it makes you come across aa all of those names and more rolled into one when you have no idea. Readin your post calling backpackin "obviously a backpackin fool", so "he likely is against ATVs" is absolutely crazy. If it is true I guess your handle means exactly what SS36 mentioned, LOL! Incidentally, your math is simply that, YOUR math, as it's all conjecture on your part to try and win a debate and about as far out as your whole theory that ATV damage is minimal. Why don't you go out with a few of the guys where they are mentioning the damage and see for yourself, or would you like to just keep ranting and proving nothing? If they can show you the damage, we win! If they can't, then you win! Pretty simple way to solve this debate, don't you think?
 
theox........I have a variety of reasons to pursue this issue and be passionate about it. I'm certainly unashamed to admit that those reasons include selfishness without a doubt. Much in the same way it would be selfish of me to be upset if some guys were going into my hunting unit before season and shooting game and kicking some of them out of the country. You wouldn't mind if this happened on one of your hunts would you ox???? It wouldn't be selfish for you to call the warden if you saw this happening would it? What if you packed into a wilderness area and were watching some bucks in a basin and the day before your hunt some yahoos came in and rode through the middle of them with dirtbikes? I bet you would just say....."hey guys, nice bikes!!" I want to have mule deer around for the future....not just for myself but for my sons and grandsons. I don't want to have to break the law in order to compete for shed antlers.....can you tell me what is so wrong and selfish about that ox? If that is the selfishness you refer to......I will gladly admit it.
 
topper, backpackin responded first with the retard quote so i responded back (childish? yea for sure but sometimes i get a bit heated and forget to take a breath) topper i do apoligize for the names i called you. ok now that thats outta the way and i can be a bit more civil, tell me what is what is wrong with my math? explain it to me buddy... id say now your just making excuses because you know your cries are all BS and actual land lost to atv use is far less then you realized but your likely to stubborn to admit being wrong about that.

SS36 i can guarantee its for selfish reasons your doing it and only doing it. atvs do not cause this huge mass damage you guys are referring to. i can tell you guys choose to continue to neglect the actual loss of habitat so there is no point in continuing to argue. ss36 go ahead and pursue your harsher penalties. you came on here asking for opinions and i gave you mine. if you dont like the opposition then dont ask for opinions. I agree i dont think peope should drive in wilderness area. i dont agree with wilderness areas but im ok with some. by all means if you want to push for loss of atvs penalties in wilderness have at it.but next time if you dont like other peoples opinions then dont ask for them.
 

Similar threads

tmbr_hntr
Have to use 14 deer points this year
Replies
26
Views
2k
SS!
SS!
M
Would have been 17 Sunday
Replies
52
Views
2k
jgriffin82
J
C
$150 NR tickets for violating Wyoming Wilderness rule (12 tickets in 10 years)
2
Replies
162
Views
5k
jm77
jm77

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

20230620_000012.jpg
D81CE768-215A-4A13-8EE6-007608D50CCA.jpeg
IMG_0022.jpeg
20210402_130608.jpg
IMG_0934.jpg
2022 Buck C.jpg
IMG_2837.MOV
IMG_20220926_125354850_HDR.jpg
Stag Buck.jpg
Wyoming Bull
IMG_1212.MOV
DSC_0201i med.jpg
Back
Top Bottom