Utah is the model of game management…

[SS!]

According to this guy:

 

[elkassassin]

Well!

Let's Talk More Than Just Sheep!

Utah's Deer & Elk Management in Recent Years Has Been PISS POOR!

And For Just The Deer It's Been 50 F'N Years of PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!

Nothing But Continuous & Over-Lapped Hunts Starting In August & Running Cow Elk Hunts in to January on certain years!

We've Added HAMS Hunts!

We've Added Late SmokePole Hunts!

We've Added Early Rifle Hunts!

JUDAS!

HOW MUCH HARDER CAN WE HUNT DEER IN DRATville?

If Any Joe Blow Hunter Or Any Other Hunter Can't See a Change in Our Deer Herd They'd Best Open Their Eyes!

There's a Big Book of Excuses!

Yes We've been in a Drought!

Did We Back Off on Permits?

HELL NO!

They're Trying To Get Changes To Sell Even More Permits!

It's FUBAR!

F'D!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!

For The Millionth F'N Time Let's Discuss It & Fix ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing Again!

 

[Vanilla]

50 years of bad management is our time frame you referenced and you’re claiming we haven’t backed off permits?

Over 200,000 permits in 1972. Less than 100,000 in 2022. I’m not good at math, but that seems like we have backed off permits quite a bit. Did that accomplish your goal?

Should we cut it down that much again to 40,000 permits statewide? Then when it still doesn’t give you the fix you’re dreaming about, can we cut that number down to 15,000 permits statewide? If we cut it that same percentage, we can get below 7,000 permits each year!

Keep fighting the good fight, Cat!

 

[inthrut]

They should have cuts tags years ago...

Archery hunt 2 weeks

Both rifle hunts 5 days

Muzzy 9 days

Stop with the doe tags

Auction tags would be a great place to start as well, need to get rid of about 75% of them

 

[2lumpy]

Who ever he is, said:

“ I know managers in Canada
that have also improved habitat and added supplements that greatly increase lambing rates compared to areas without. “Way
easier to bounce back from bad weather with more lambs.”


I hope Utah is NOT the model of game management…. I can’t argue that there are not other State’s that are as bad but I to hope heck Utah is not a model we want most other States to follow, at least when it comes to the BIG TWO. That being mule deer and elk. If it is, God help our big game species and our future hunting potential.

I will agree whole heartily with one comment and praise his recognition and understanding of that fact. When he say’s “greatly increase lambing rates. WAY EASIER TO BOUNCE BACK FROM BAD WEATHER WITH MORE LAMB.” He is absolutely right.

Whether it be sheep, deer, or elk, the annual ratio of births to mothers is the ONLY, guarantee you’ve got that you can bounce back after droughts or winter loss. If your not managing your big game animals based on birth survival, no matter what you do with habitat, predators, development, highway management or tag sales is going to matter one iota. If you don’t manage tag sales, predators numbers, migration routes, etc. to the degree that your annual birth survivals don’t exceed birth deaths, on a consistent basis, weather will one day or another wipe out your entire base population, in one foul swat.

Utah’s mule deer are below that thrash whole right now, and they have been for a decade or more. We are one State wide event away from…… gone beyond repair. That is not a model I would hope any other State would aspire to.

 

[southernutahhunter]

Totally agree 2lumpy and would add that some units in the state are already beyond repair

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller!

Do I Need To Refresh Your Memory?

I Can Do it in 2 Words!

Well 3 Words!

HELL-F'N-RIGHT!

50 years of bad management is our time frame you referenced and you’re claiming we haven’t backed off permits?

Over 200,000 permits in 1972. Less than 100,000 in 2022. I’m not good at math, but that seems like we have backed off permits quite a bit. Did that accomplish your goal?

Should we cut it down that much again to 40,000 permits statewide? Then when it still doesn’t give you the fix you’re dreaming about, can we cut that number down to 15,000 permits statewide? If we cut it that same percentage, we can get below 7,000 permits each year!

Keep fighting the good fight, Cat!

 

[Vanilla]

I Can Do it in 2 Words!

Well 3 Words!

HELL-F'N-RIGHT!

This made my day Bessy! Thanks my friend.

 

[woodruffhunter]

Take a look at the Rich County antelope herd; I used to see upwards of 20-30 bucks on a drive. Ask me how bucks I’ve seen in the past month driving through the unit 4-5 days a week. I’ll answer in advance: ZERO. I know, there are some there but not ear to what it was. The two doe permit did most of the damage to this unit. My middle son has enough points to draw a rifle tag here. Although we know this unit well and I have lived here for more than 20 years, there is a good chance I’ll suggest to him to apply elsewhere.
Does this guy really think the deer unit in Northern Utah is well managed?
The elk herd is still decent.
I would be happy if they cut the deer permits here by at least half!!

 

[mtnrunner260]

Take a look at the Rich County antelope herd; I used to see upwards of 20-30 bucks on a drive. Ask me how bucks I’ve seen in the past month driving through the unit 4-5 days a week. I’ll answer in advance: ZERO. I know, there are some there but not ear to what it was. The two doe permit did most of the damage to this unit. My middle son has enough points to draw a rifle tag here. Although we know this unit well and I have lived here for more than 20 years, there is a good chance I’ll suggest to him to apply elsewhere.
Does this guy really think the deer unit in Northern Utah is well managed?
The elk herd is still decent.
I would be happy if they cut the deer permits here by at least half!!

Russia has expended less rounds on Ukraine than the dwr has on keeping animals out of farmers fields in northern UT.

 

[Gator]

Would it help if they closed units when it falls under some many Bucks per 100 does in that unit.

 

[Vanilla]

Would it help if they closed units when it falls under some many Bucks per 100 does in that unit.

This would only help if hunting buck deer is what is causing the herds to suffer.

I don’t believe it is, and I don’t know a single person that understands biology that thinks it is either. (Sorry if that sounds strong, but it’s true…)

 

[elkassassin]

Hey GATOR!

You Gotta Get Rid of That Buck to Doe Ratio BS Management!

We Need To Improve TOTAL Numbers of Deer!

Who Cares If You've Got 12 PISSCUTTERS Per 100 Does If You've Only Got a 1,000 Total Deer Left?

Do You See What I'm Sayin?

Would it help if they closed units when it falls under some many Bucks per 100 does in that unit.

 

[Bigwiffy]

I keep thinking one of these hunt openers Bess won't post because he's actually out hunting.....opening night of the rifle hunt and here he is sipping Dew yapping on MM. Some nice bucks are hitting the dirt, dust of your Bushnells and your .3030 and go find you one you pussycat.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Wiff!

Trying To UN-THAW From This Mornings Hunt!

It's Set In & Isn't Looking Good For Tomorrow But I'll Be Up There Looking For What Ain't There again in the Mornin!

I keep thinking one of these hunt openers Bess won't post because he's actually out hunting.....opening night of the rifle hunt and here he is sipping Dew yapping on MM. Some nice bucks are hitting the dirt, dust of your Bushnells and your .3030 and go find you one you pussycat.

 

[Bigwiffy]

Hey Wiff!

Trying To UN-THAW From This Mornings Hunt!

It's Set In & Isn't Looking Good For Tomorrow But I'll Be Up There Looking For What Ain't There again in the Mornin!

Good luck! If it is going to happen this might be the year you re-break the world record!

 

[elkassassin]

Not Where I Hunt Wiff!

Check your PM!

Good luck! If it is going to happen this might be the year you re-break the world record!

 

[Dangbig]

Take a look at the Rich County antelope herd; I used to see upwards of 20-30 bucks on a drive. Ask me how bucks I’ve seen in the past month driving through the unit 4-5 days a week. I’ll answer in advance: ZERO. I know, there are some there but not ear to what it was. The two doe permit did most of the damage to this unit. My middle son has enough points to draw a rifle tag here. Although we know this unit well and I have lived here for more than 20 years, there is a good chance I’ll suggest to him to apply elsewhere.
Does this guy really think the deer unit in Northern Utah is well managed?
The elk herd is still decent.
I would be happy if they cut the deer permits here by at least half!!

I used to see them clear into the hardware zip the last couple years
The DWR can’t manage a chicken coop

 

[middlefork]

" Jul 10, 2019 (Edited)

I received the following email from Ty Land at Deseret Land and Livestock....

ATTENTION HUNTERS: the pronghorn went through a very rough winter. It was long and cold and they didn't winter well. We typically have 500-700 total pronghorn on the ranch. At the time of sending this email we have a total of 30 pronghorn on the ranch that includes all bucks and does. We tried to work with the UDWR to shut down the hunt for this year because of the extremely low numbers but the tags have still been issued. We want to be completely honest with you and let you make an informed decision. You can keep your tags as normal and come and do the hunt in September of the select dates. Or you can surrender your tags through the UDWR and get your points and possibly your money back."

 

[Gator]

Yes see what you are saying I think closing down a unit for a length of time will help grow More Bucks and More doe's for a season or 2 and if it don't then close it longer.

 

[Vanilla]

How will closing down hunting for a season or two grow more bucks or grow more does?

Bucks don’t have babies. Not even in 2022.

 

[2lumpy]

Yes see what you are saying I think closing down a unit for a length of time will help grow More Bucks and More doe's for a season or 2 and if it don't then close it longer.

…… if it don’t then close it longer.
Precisely, throw in some predator control and migration improvement….. to add some juice to the sauce. Would surprise the day lights out of you, if you have a pulse.

 

[2lumpy]

Oh…… don’t bet the equity in your home on it.

 

[Gator]

How will closing down hunting for a season or two grow more bucks or grow more does?

Bucks don’t have babies. Not even in 2022.

Doe's don't have babies without the BUCKS Right. If you have 5 bucks for 100 doe's they will be a bunch of busy Bucks. Fawns born would be spread out making easy picking for more of them be killed by predators.

 

[Vanilla]

Which unit in Utah is at 5:100 ratio?

 

[elkassassin]

Here We Go Again!

Managing a Deer Herd with The BS Logic of Bucks Per 100 Does!

Has This BS Management Ever Worked Since It Was Put in Place?

HELL NO!

Quit Managing Game Herds For Money & GREED!

FCFS!

Are They Bucks?

Or Are They Buck$?

 

[Keystone]

I keep reading these types of posts.

Didn't @hossblur put out a post wanting to see videos of guys tearing up their tags prior to the season as a way to still finance the DWR, but also "do their part" for deer numbers?

I'm guessing a few guys in this thread posted those videos, right?

 

[Vanilla]

If by “very few” you mean “zero,” you’d be correct.

Ending hunting is not the way to save hunting. Not socially, and certainly not biologically. We can shout it until we are blue in the face, but some will never listen.

 

[hossblur]

Imagine that. Another post about deer, another list of guys calling for closures and tag cuts.

I believe Keystone, this is the 3rd year of me issuing the video challenge. In those 3 years I've seen a grand total of zero videos.

I have seen hundreds of posts by dudes who want tag cuts, units closed. But, not a single one, wants to cut THEIR hunting. They'd be happy to bail on the unit they hunt, and go somewhere else. But not a single guy, will donate $35 to keep DWR operating, and cut up that tag AND STAY HOME.

YUP, the usual will chime in about how they didn't draw, or hunt another state(showing they don't believe in fewer hunters, they just go out of sight out of mind). But not a SINGLE DAMN GUY, wants to put up or shut up.

Fewer even, have an original idea THAT ACTUALLY DOES ANYTHING.

We cut tags, 160,000 of them. The herds are where they were that day.

We shortened seasons. The herd is where they were that day.

We closed units, even making some LE. How's the trajectory of the Henries?

We limit hunting and magically there's a population explosion. Ever been to AI, 2 tags, population basically even for decades.



Now. What we have accomplished. We made $fw the spokesmen for hunters, because we bought their bullshit.

We lost 160,000 tags. Lost their revenue(this $fw), We lost their voices. We lost their votes. And worse, we stunted hunting. Gen Z will be the last hunters. They will be voted into extinction. They will be ballot initiative into extinction. They will lose access thanks to the never ending expansion of LE, and CWMU.

And long after the last hunter is forced into obscurity, the mule deer will still be struggling. Mostly because they are terrible competitors, or aging forests and sage, and our expansions of houses into the benches(voters could stop that, but see above).

And what, after all that will we show for it?

Doyle will be rich. Rich guys will have walls covered with antlers, and the average guy, can enjoy golf.

 

[Vanilla]

<me giving hoss a standing ovation>

Want another case study for how silly this idea of more tag cuts and closing units is? How have tag cuts helped the Pine Valley unit? I'll hang up and listen.

 

[southernutahhunter]

How has closing a unit helped the Paunsaugunt unit?

 

[2lumpy]

How has closing a unit helped the Paunsaugunt unit?

Personal opinion………. Closing the unit had a huge helping effect with regrowing a viably sustainable mule deer on the Pauns……. in concert with very carefully adjusted habitat management including forage and water development, persistent predator removal, appropriate highway migration modifications and………finally but most definitely…….. the most… over looked and the most criticized, the extremely careful allocation of hunting tags. The number of tags based on a mule deer herd, living in one of the most tenuous, dry, predator prevalent, arguably the least mule deer habitat of almost any unit in Utah.

Yet, because of these consistent management efforts the results of the closure…… have been a long, long term success rather than….. immediately going back to failure, with two or three years of being reopened for hunting.

The same management strategy was been effective on the Henries, another extremely marginal mule deer unit, with the same success. Same is on the Oak Creek and to some degree on the Vernon and the Book Cliffs. (The reason for less success on the Vernon and Book Cliffs is directly related to a different allocation of hunting tags, this is; less than the general units but more than the premium units.) If they would, the same strategy would work on all units, even the monster mule deer growing units, like the Wasatch, the Manti, the Fish Lake, Pine Valley, Beaver and the Panquitch.

They know how…….. they just won’t! Do not allow them to tell you they don’t know how!

 

[Vanilla]

If we could only reduce every unit to 100 tags!

That would be AWESOME!

Some hunters are the most anti-hunting people I know.

 

[javihammer]

it isn't complicated just economics. Reduce the supply (public tags) and increase demand of all tags including private land and circus tags (expo/governor/CWMU). Convince the public hunters that fewer tags means better quality and they will rally to slit their own throats and watch tv hunts from home instead. Simultaneously keep circus tags stable or increasing and watch the dollars roll in. Diabolical but not rocket science, we even allow these scheisters to write off their income as non-profit conservationists.

Reduced opportunity and overly complex tag distribution systems also support application services and outfitting syndicates. This whole thing is supported by greed, greedy businessmen making money off of greedy short sighted hunters that will ultimately rally to price 99% of us out of the sport in 20 years.

When hunting is purely viewed as a pecker measuring contest by rich guys, society will abandon their support of it. Hunters need to realize the "quality" choir is a short sighted bunch trying to get antlers on the wall before they age out and the commercial crowd and the politicians that guide them know this too.

Even if hunting wasn't at risk from commercial forces, the future of electric vehicles and technologies to manage private property could eventually result in charging people an instant toll when they cross boundaries into different properties or other areas. Can you imagine having your electric vehicle disabled as you try to cross through an area that has already exceeded their guest access permits for people in your "tier".

What if hunt quality and access to the best areas was actively managed by a group or even by artificial intelligence from DWR offices. Your ability to hunt an area or animal is driven by some arbitrary scorecard that puts you into a "tier" which drives exactly where you are allowed to hunt by electronic geographic boundary enforcement. You could be scored or tiered by age, by who you know, education level, the occupation you have or even political contributions. This isn't pie on the wall, some hunters already advocate for such preferential programs.

All the technology that would enforce this scenario exists today but things haven't gone off the rails completely because there are still enough public hunters to support the notion that hunting is a sport. When hunters let the business side distort the majority of hunting into something that is no longer sporting it will be game over.

The business side could care less about the long term viability of hunting as long they get their money in the short term. Cutting tags and allowing hunt opportunity to slowly expand CWMU units will deteriorate the public wildlife management doctrine and give more control to manage access to the wildlife by commercializers. Keeping draw tags high and available to as many as possible preserves the sport, draw tag cuts usually feed the beast as does the expansion of private and circus tags.

I used to get offended when people would stereotype hunters as dumb rednecks but far too many hunters can't see the wolf in sheeps clothing. it is sad, I guess there are a lot of dummies among us after all. Seems like all a guy needs to do is stumble into camp in camos and some sweet well intentioned hunter will hand him a beer, their hunting tag and their wallet. Sure makes me sick that their are so many predators that prey off of good people.

Rant over, happy hunting.

Ryan

 

[hossblur]

We need javi post to be sticky so it can be on every thread about mule deer.

Well done sir

 

[hossblur]

Personal opinion………. Closing the unit had a huge helping effect with regrowing a viably sustainable mule deer on the Pauns……. in concert with very carefully adjusted habitat management including forage and water development, persistent predator removal, appropriate highway migration modifications and………finally but most definitely…….. the most… over looked and the most criticized, the extremely careful allocation of hunting tags. The number of tags based on a mule deer herd, living in one of the most tenuous, dry, predator prevalent, arguably the least mule deer habitat of almost any unit in Utah.

Yet, because of these consistent management efforts the results of the closure…… have been a long, long term success rather than….. immediately going back to failure, with two or three years of being reopened for hunting.

The same management strategy was been effective on the Henries, another extremely marginal mule deer unit, with the same success. Same is on the Oak Creek and to some degree on the Vernon and the Book Cliffs. (The reason for less success on the Vernon and Book Cliffs is directly related to a different allocation of hunting tags, this is; less than the general units but more than the premium units.) If they would, the same strategy would work on all units, even the monster mule deer growing units, like the Wasatch, the Manti, the Fish Lake, Pine Valley, Beaver and the Panquitch.

They know how…….. they just won’t! Do not allow them to tell you they don’t know how!

Sounds great. Turn the entire state into an LE.

Which for those of you who ARE DUMB AS A BRICK, means deer hunting in Utah is OIL, maybe.

Now because plans like this, require 90% cut in tags, the DWR needs to find a 90%bump in revenue to replace. So, we will need to go from 500 "conservation" tags to a couple thousand. Great business for WLH, Moss, not so great for anyone not willing to fork out $20k for a tag.

Rest assured, when these same geniuses are scrolling IG, and watching YouTube hunting, Don Jr will tell you them about how fantastic mule deer hunting is in Utah. These guys will swell with excitement knowing "this is the year" they draw that Wasatch west archery tag with their 48points.

Elk hunting will need to be ended. See they out compete deer, and a $20k deer tag is more important than a $50 elk tag, and $fw needs to keep their base happy, so elk will need to go back to 1960's levels when the golden age was here for deer. In exchange for supporting a loss to their business, we will need to do outfitters set aside deer tags, which of course will need to come from the general pool.

What a wet dream it will be?


PETA, WWF, and every green org haven't cost us a single hunter.
The single most ANTI HUNTING group in Utah is $fw. Followed by folks like Lumpy and Bess. Responsible for over 160,000 lost hunters. And, when there was basically zero gained by cutting them, their answer, MORE COWBELL

 

[Vanilla]

Hoss, the proposal above is not to take the whole state to limited entry, it’s to take the whole state to PREMIUM limited entry, like the Pauns, Henrys, and Oak Creek.

Just think how awesome mule deer hunting will be in your stomping grounds if we could take those 7,500 tags and make it 125 total! I mean, can you imagine how great that would be for Utah hunters?

3,100 Zion tags? Nope! 13 baby. Just imagine how stoked we’d all be for that!

I say we do it. What could go wrong?