Utah Nonresident Quota - Published Anywhere ?

[abqbw]

Does anyone know the source of Utah's nonresident quotas? I looked and can't find a description of them in the application guide or rule book. I even searched the statutes online and could not find anything. I must be missing something.

I am not trying to stir anything up or complain about them. I have just been researching quotas in other states to compare with the newly implemented quotas for Sheep, Ibex, and Oryx in NM. Utah is the only state for which I cannot find anything written.

Thank you.

 

[coyoteslayer]

I believe 10% of tags go to out of state applicants.

 

[Blank]

2014 tag numbers will be set in a couple weeks. You can check the link below for last years numbers and the first recommendations made for the changes to this years.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/2014-04_rac_packet.pdf

 

[ElkManDan]

10% of tags go to NR. Not limited to 10% a flat 10%. NR are in a separate draw and in some cases (youth elk tag) NR have better odds than residents. If there are less than 10 tags available a unit may or may not have a NR tag but in the end NR get 10% of the tags.

 

[ElkManDan]

ok after looking further, I can't find anywhere that says 10% is guaranteed. Looking at the tags from last year, most species end up giving slightly more than 10% with the exception being premium elk tags at less than 10%

 

[abqbw]

Thank you for the replies. I did not make myself very clear.

I understand that its 10% and has been since I can remember. What I am looking for is, where is that stated? I don't see it in the rules or laws anywhere. Did the game commission pass some special rule or something?

I promise I am not even thinking that UT is doing anything wrong with their quotas.

Its just the only state that I can't find a rule or law saying exactly and specifically what the quotas are. Is UT just winging it? I can't imagine that. I really seem to remember reading it in the proclamation many years ago but can't find anything.

Thank you.

 

[ElmerFudd]

Well, a 10% quota before the draw goes to nonresidents, but half the expo tags are taken from the nonresident quota. The expo takes 5% of the total quota, so effectively the nonresident quota is 7.5% overall, not counting cherry picks that could potentially take one of two tags and take the nonresident preference tag from a two nonresident tag hunt.

 

[2_Point]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-14 AT 09:45AM (MST)[p]Elmer, you can stop spreading that information because you are wrong. The convention tags do not come from the nonresident quota before the draw. They just come out of the permit total and the remaining permits (after the conservation tags, convention tags, poaching reward tags, and landowner tags are removed first) are divided among the resident and nonresident split. Unit X has 100 permits. 5 go to conservation tags, 15 go to landowner tags, and 3 go to the convention tags. That leaves 77 permits for the draw. It seems most of the time the UDWR rounds up to the nonresident permits so they get 8 tags and the residents get 69 or it could be 70 and 7.

The real world example could be the Zion desert sheep unit. 1 permit went to NONRESIDENTS ONLY in the convention. In the draw there will be 12 total tags with 11 resident and 1 nonresident. You're post says the nonresident permit was taken from the draw, yet the fact is it was not.
Another real world example is the Book Cliffs rifle deer. There are 10 convention permits. There will be 256 total draw permits with residents getting 230 and nonresidents getting 26. 26 is more than 10% of 256. Again we can see the convention permits did not come from the nonresident portion. What did happen is 10 permits were removed from the draw to give to the convention, which would have been 9 resident and one nonresident permit. In most cases though, the convention permit came out of the resident portion of the pool due to the low number of permits taken for the convention.

FYI, I dislike the convention and taking the permits from the draw. One at least needs to have their dislike based on facts.

 

[akdan]

I have to agree with Elmer. Ever since the Expo started there hasn't been one sheep unit offer two permits for NR. So, therefore the ones in the max pool have been screwed. Utah has done about the same as New Mexico in regards to how they treat non-residents. Guess my 21+ years of donations for licenses and applications will never pay off as long as the Expo gets the NR chances. Crying shame!!!

 

[PleaseDear]

Thanks for the cover up '2-point' but with your name Hidden---

How much credibility do you really have?

They took a 50% of tags out of the non-ressy pool for the $cam Expo tag$....and...50% of ressy tags....when it all started back in the day.

Then after 5 years they took 5 tags from the original 200 tags for 'In Attendance Only' 5 tags for non-ressy's....go figure where they came from on the draw tags..

Ya don't want to believe me??---Ask 'littlebighorn' and see his thread awhile back----here on M&M---pretty much sums it up...


Robb

 

[UGAhunter]

2-point, you are wrong! Half of the Convention tags come from the NR quota. Here is a link to the rule:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules-regu...981-r657-55--wildlife-convention-permits.html

And the applicable language:

R657-55-3. Wildlife Convention Permit Allocation.

(3) The number of wildlife convention permits authorized by the Wildlife Board shall be based onc) a percentage of the permits available to nonresidents in the annual big game drawings matched by a proportionate number of resident permits."

To compensate for this ridiculous rule, they do now have 5 OIL tags for NR only.

 

[2_Point]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-14 AT 09:27PM (MST)[p]Robb- Been on this site since 1998 or whenever Brian started it. Had some threats made against my business so my profile is hidden.

UGA- That is not what has been happening.

Well I guess the examples I used weren't enough for you guys. I don't know why I'm wasting my time, but let's see if you guys can prove me wrong.

Remember for the DRAW residents get 90% of the permits and nonresidents get 10%. You guys claim the Con tags are taken equally from the nonresident and resident quotas for the draw.
Book Cliffs rifle deer- 10 convention tags - Draw- 230 res 26 nonres
Book Cliffs archery deer- 4 conv tags - Draw 80 res 9 nonres
Book Cliffs ml deer - 4 conv tags - Draw 80 res 9 nonres
Oak Cr deer - 1 conv - Draw 18 res 2 nonres
Henry Mtns rifle deer- 1 conv - Draw 28 res 3 non res
Henry Mtn Mgt deer- 2 conv - Draw 31 res 4 nonres
Pauns rifle deer- 3 conv - Draw 77 res 9 nonres
Pauns archery deer- 2 conv - Draw 26 res 3 non res

Lets look at the Convention Permits only available to nonresidents at the Convention. These are tags residents can not apply for at the Convention.
Already gave you guys the Zion Desert Sheep.
Wasatch moose - 1 Conv - Draw 26 res 3 nonres. You guys can do math? 1 + 26 + 3 = 30. If what you claim is happening then shouldn't the permit have come from the nonresident portion? Looks like it came from the 90% of RESIDENT portion.
Henry Mtn bison- 1 Conv - Draw 36 res 4 nonres
Nine Mile rocky- 1 conv - Draw 13 res 2 nonres
Willard mtn goat- 1 conv - Draw 24 res 3 nonres

Each example I gave shows that hardly one nonresident tag was given to the Convention from the draw quota. NOT ONE of the examples I gathered in a few minutes shows what you guys claim is happening. I'm not going to waste more time explaining it. Accept the reality or prove me wrong. Again, not a fan of the Convention, but you gotta have facts to base your frustration.

 

[PleaseDear]

I remember that from back in the day now.......2_Point.....my bad as I had forgot about that crap.

Screwy what comes along off these websites we frequent.

The way it plays out mathematically as the non-ressy tag pool is so much smaller was % wise it really hit the non-ressy regular draw tag pool hard.....% wise.

I really feel there should be a minimum of 2 non-ressy tags for each LE species/unit/weapon of choice/season.....if not more.

This would give a minimum of 1 for the 50% high point pool and 1 for the 50% everyone else.

Robb

 

[deerslayer88]

So units giving 3 limited entry tags should give NR 2?

 

[PleaseDear]

"I really feel there should be a minimum of 2 non-ressy tags for each LE species/unit/weapon of choice/season.....if not more."

Robb


PS--read it slowly this time my man--88....

 

[deerslayer88]

I was referring to units only giving out 3 total tags. I am not sure if there is any currently but I am sure it has happened at some point some time. I definitely feel the NR get screwed in each state, and I am not against them getting a little better odds as my odds as a resident already suck. The biggest thing is some of the time I feel like being a non resident for awhile would be beneficial. I could build both sheep points for 10 years then jump into the res pools.

 

[Zeke]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-14 AT 08:46PM (MST)[p]This whole res vs nonresident thing has me shaking my head.

It seems that guys will do about anything to screw the other guy if it means a .0004% better chance of him drawing a tag. Oh, and then when someone "whines" about getting screwed the other guy just says "don't let the door hit you in the azz". Sound familiar abqbw?

I'm not the one to say what's "fair" but in most (not all) cases the NR takes it in the shorts and the residents are gleeful (yes, that's almost gay) about it.
Zeke

 

[elkfromabove]

>2-point, you are wrong! Half of
>the Convention tags come from
>the NR quota. Here is
>a link to the rule:
>
>
>http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules-regu...981-r657-55--wildlife-convention-permits.html
>
>And the applicable language:
>
>R657-55-3. Wildlife Convention Permit Allocation.
>
>(3) The number of wildlife convention
>permits authorized by the Wildlife
>Board shall be based onc)
>a percentage of the permits
>available to nonresidents in the
>annual big game drawings matched
>by a proportionate number of
>resident permits."
>
>To compensate for this ridiculous rule,
>they do now have 5
>OIL tags for NR only.
>

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you are misinterpreting this section. The rule states that the nonresident numbers are matched by a "proportionate" number of resident permits, not an "equal" number of resident permits, and the current proportions of the annual big game drawings (and, thus the Convention permits) are 10% nonresident and 90% resident.

Admittedly, the language isn't as clear as it could be and probably should be clarified on the next convention contract.

 

[deerslayer88]

Zeke, I love your comment as we are all NR in 49 other states.

 

[ElmerFudd]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-14 AT 05:16AM (MST)[p]The Expo tags are taken from the public draw to add incentive for event attendance alone. They are taking away public draw opportunity just to give incentive to get people to the gate. If you look, there are not many nonresident winners percentage wise, except for the designated tags. So the incentive is not working. True, they take the tags before the draw tag numbers are set, but they can go in before the draw and say this tag was an expo tag. If it happens to be one of 2 or three available nonresident hunt, oh well.... One tag from a four tag hunt cuts preference tags in half. No matter the percentages taken, sure seems like cherry picking has been happening. I'm not sure there are any rules, maybe it goes something like this: Hmmmm, maybe we ought to take a couple resident turkey tags to make up for the nonresident Henry Mountains buck tag? Nonresident draw is hurt especially hard, half or proportional! Bottom line is that the expo should sell itself on its own merits.

 

[UGAhunter]

This post got hijacked from the original question.

I searched all over the Utah Statutes and DWR Administrative rules and cannot see where the 10% NR set aside is written, although it is very much established practice in Utah. Anyone else able to find the legal language that sets the NR quota at 10%?

 

[abqbw]

2_Point,

Thanks for your post.

Don't let those goofballs get to you. They are of that class of people that just spew out unsubstantiated garbage that is not based upon any facts or research.

Anyone that can do simple arithmetic can figure out that UT always does the 10% NR quota math fairly for NR. UT is just as likely, if not more likely, to round up as down. They shoot for 10% and meet or exceed it.

 

[abqbw]

>This post got hijacked from the
>original question.
>
>I searched all over the Utah
>Statutes and DWR Administrative rules
>and cannot see where the
>10% NR set aside is
>written, although it is very
>much established practice in Utah.
>Anyone else able to find
>the legal language that sets
>the NR quota at 10%?
>


Thank you UGAhunter! It is well established that it 10%. The question is, were does the 10% come from? I have no problem with 10%, just wondering if its written in any rules or laws.....