elkassassin
Long Time Member
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I Took This Song To Heart Many Decades Ago!
Dang elk! I wasn’t gonna tell the rest of the story! Trying to keep it civilized!?
Not really. Not really even an arguement. Most laws on the books are a result of a politician pandering for votes then next time they beg the public to get their jobs back.Poor argument. It's impossible to enforce shooting deer with a bow the night before the opener, but that doesn't mean it should be legal.
Welp, I guess we've got another Tristate here arguing against laws protecting wildlife.Not really. Not really even an arguement. Most laws on the books are a result of a politician pandering for votes then next time they beg the public to get their jobs back.
If these questions are asked, idiotic bills wouldn't even make it out of committee.
Only a fool thinks they need a law for everything...
Welp, what we have here is someone confused what protecting wildlife really is. Using, or not using, a laser range finder is not protecting or harming wildlife in anyway. If said laser burned a hole in them, your arguement would have validity.Welp, I guess we've got another Tristate here arguing against laws protecting wildlife.
And this one because it might be difficult to enforce. Why even have season dates and bag limits at all. I guess all of us who abide by the law even when we won't get caught are now fools.
Lasers burning holes in wildlife, 4x4s, and shot execution? You're all over the place.Welp, what we have here is someone confused what protecting wildlife really is. Using, or not using, a laser range finder is not protecting or harming wildlife in anyway. If said laser burned a hole in them, your arguement would have validity.
A game camera disrupting the ability of wildlife to go about their business of survival unfettered for a period of time is another matter.
If hunting is a means of herd management, the more proficient the predator, the easier it is to meet management quotas. Knowing yardage prior to shot execution allows you, as the hunter, to decide to take the shot or not based on your ability.
As far as tech in general being ostracized as poor wildlife game laws, better saddle up Hoss, because your 4x4 hurts wildlife by helping you get yourself up to them without expending as much effort.
Disagree just to disagree. I'll wait...
Wouldn't matter in the least bit which was more lethal if big game was managed correctly.I contend that trail cams result in the death of more animals that long range shooters.
Scout? The bill still allows anybody to have cameras on the mountain until August 1.Maybe someone else has posted this, but this will only really hurt us DIY self guys more, that are limited in time and money to scout.
For you archery hunters yes, but rifle hunters noScout? The bill still allows anybody to have cameras on the mountain until August 1.
We can all still know what's in the area before the hunt starts. We just have to pull cameras before guys actually start releasing arrows.
Rifle hunters can run cameras until August 1st too. Same with muzzleloader folks.For you archery hunters yes, but rifle hunters no
Maybe someone else has posted this, but this will only really hurt us DIY self guys more, that are limited in time and money to scout. It will benefit the guided hunts and outfitters that have time and money to be in the hills all morning and evening. What will be consequence of using one? Will it only be big enough fine that poor person would not use one and someone with money they won’t care?
Face the music in Utah though. We manage for 15-17 bucks. Units are there based on DWR data. If you believe the data then you don’t need to save bucks, why does it matter if we are successful if this is the management plan?
I am for more buck on the landscape but if we go over the 17 bucks then more tags are just given out.
I have always been a proponent of throwing buck to doe ratio out the door and only have a minimum like 15 but who cares if it gets to 45, if the land can handle it.
Mule deer management needs to change.
This will affect the guides just as hard or probably harder then the average joe. Guides relying on cameras to keep tabs on where the game is during the season will now not be able to cover every portion of the unit every day of the week, they will have to spread out and physical be at those spots early in the morning and late in the evening to keep tabs on whatever animals they are interested in, also no more night time surveillance after the game goes nocturnal. That alone will be huge for the bigger more mature animals. How many times is it a night time photo that reveals a bomber buck or bull is in the area.You guys know this has nothing to do with our general season deer hunts, this has everything to do with LE hunts and that Piss on average joe was finding some of the bigger bucks and bulls that the outfitters have been watching, convince me I am wrong, nobody cares about the General Season units, if it was about all units about helping animals, the statement should be and we would like to also ban, radio's, range finders, spotting scopes.
Anyone using more than 1 guide, hell they limit dogs on bears, why not guides helping hunters.
Obviously many of you hunt different areas than I do. No cell service where I go. Nothing being sent to my phone. If you don't all realize this is just one more step against hunting in general. It don't seem like a big deal, then next year or two the dates change. Then an all together ban. Then on to the next thing. Then on to the long range guns, the range finders, the binoculars, compound bows. Don't **** yourselves this is just a step in the wrong direction.I didn’t show them anything, I just saw the proposed legislation and am passing it along. I think you might be underestimating how much of an impact this is going to have on hunting success if this law is enforced. (Big “if” - I know)
This would be significant. For better or for worse probably depends on exactly how many trail cameras you run and if they send the photos to your phone so you never even have to leave the house.
Yeah bessy, this won’t solve all the issues. But this one will have a large impact on hunting success. Less animals killed...isn’t that what you want?
So by that logic we can't do anything but keep plugging away the way we are, no changes to anything or we lose everything.......Obviously many of you hunt different areas than I do. No cell service where I go. Nothing being sent to my phone. If you don't all realize this is just one more step against hunting in general. It don't seem like a big deal, then next year or two the dates change. Then an all together ban. Then on to the next thing. Then on to the long range guns, the range finders, the binoculars, compound bows. Don't **** yourselves this is just a step in the wrong direction.
I’d like to see and have a chance at bigger bucks like I used to, rather than watch the herds decline to nothing. The last few years have been terrible in the areas that I hunt. Quality is gone. Turret twisters are everywhere. Ban the long range guns. Make everything open sights.Obviously many of you hunt different areas than I do. No cell service where I go. Nothing being sent to my phone. If you don't all realize this is just one more step against hunting in general. It don't seem like a big deal, then next year or two the dates change. Then an all together ban. Then on to the next thing. Then on to the long range guns, the range finders, the binoculars, compound bows. Don't **** yourselves this is just a step in the wrong direction.
That’s one of the more logical posts I’ve seen on this topic so farLet me explain this again. Utah has a mule deer plan that won’t allow buck populations to grow, they are managed for either 15-17 or 18-20 on general season units. Most if not all units are at there mark. Banning cameras to save a buck will do nothing in Utah, the plans will not allow buck population to grow. If we want more bucks on the landscape you have to focus on making changes where it will help, and to help Utah you have to get rid of buck to doe ratios and manage units different. Let me be loud and clear again...Utah’s deer plan will not allow more bucks....banning cameras won’t help....If we go above 15-17 or 18-20 the DWR has to give out more deer permits to bring the buck population back down....change the plan to make the difference.....
Banning camera's and bait have absolutely nothing to do with rebuilding our deer numbers.Let me explain this again. Utah has a mule deer plan that won’t allow buck populations to grow, they are managed for either 15-17 or 18-20 on general season units. Most if not all units are at there mark. Banning cameras to save a buck will do nothing in Utah, the plans will not allow buck population to grow. If we want more bucks on the landscape you have to focus on making changes where it will help, and to help Utah you have to get rid of buck to doe ratios and manage units different. Let me be loud and clear again...Utah’s deer plan will not allow more bucks....banning cameras won’t help....If we go above 15-17 or 18-20 the DWR has to give out more deer permits to bring the buck population back down....change the plan to make the difference.....
Congrats! You figured it out!Banning camera's and bait have absolutely nothing to do with rebuilding our deer numbers.
I know that, but the hype of everyone thinking it’s going to save a buck isn’t going to happen because in Utah it won’t happen because of the plan, we will not see more bucks than the plan will allow,Banning camera's and bait have absolutely nothing to do with rebuilding our deer numbers.
It's not about saving a buck either, it's about finally drawing some lines in the sand about "fair chase" and technology.I know that, but the hype of everyone thinking it’s going to save a buck isn’t going to happen because in Utah it won’t happen because of the plan, we will not see more bucks than the plan will allow,
This is about restricting hunters, not managing game. The question simply is do we need the restriction?
Elk!Hey BLooD!
I Have a Similar Story!
Several Years ago Me & Jr was headed up to Hunt Bucks!
We Start in the Bottom & Start Hiking up the Ridge!
We Spot a PISSCUTTER on the Hillside & My Son saysad We need To Spook the Buck just a little so He doesn't get shot!
I Said:No!
If He's still on this Open Face when We Hike back down out of here We Might Walk His Direction & get Him out of Harms Way,but I Don't wanna Spook anything above us where We'll be Hunting!
So We Make Our Hike,seen a couple Medium Sized Bucks And started heading back down!
We Get back down to where it Opens up a little Bit & I can see a TURRET TWISTER below us!
He Doesn't see us!
But He does have the PISSCUTTER Spotted!
We Dropped off the edge of the Ridge & We got just below Him & Watched!
The Scope is 1/2 as long as His Gun!
He's all Set Up & We're Thinking:He Surely Ain't gonna Shoot that Little MOTL Buck is He?
150 Yard Shot,KABOOM!
KA-WHOP!
You didn't need to Guess where that Hit!
The Loudest GUT-SHOT I've ever Heard!
So We Keep watching the Shooter!
He Sits there for a While,gathers His Ssshhiiiitt up & Starts walking toward us/back down to His Wheeler!
I Step out in Front of Him & Ask Him if He's gonna Retrieve His Trophy Buck?
What F'N Buck? He Says!
I Said the Little PISSCUTTER I Seen You Just shoot on the Hillside!
He Was PISSED!
I Tells Him:
You're Gonna Take Care & Retrieve it Or I'll make a Phone Call & Have Your Ass Arrested!
The Attitude was BAD!
We Wasted 1/2 the Day Watching Him & Making Sure He Took His Trophy Out!
This Is How ARROGANT This PRICK WAS:
When He finally got the 65 Pound Trophy down to His Wheeler!
He Tied the Head to the Rear Rack on His Wheeler & Drug it for a few Miles behind the Wheeler back to His Truck!
Instead of just throwing it up on the Rack!
UN-F'N-BELIEVABLE!
This JACK-ASS was not Happy with Me!
Makes You Wonder How Much BS He's Pulled off in His Day when nobody was watching?
and bait on private will lure some animals on to private which in the long run could turn into how it is back eastSure they are hunting hunters ! ? Well mine are up just for watch game. Not for hunting. Plus people will still use them on Private property . Then how will they enforce this ?
I agree with your story and agree we need to draw some lines in the sand, but I clearly remember guys banging at bucks across canyons with all calibers and regular crosshair, non turret scopes even back in the 80's and it will never stop.An example of why I would like to see technology restricted on hunts:
I was hunting with a buddy, watching a deep, cliffy canyon that held big bucks. We located an absolute wall mount. Problem was, he was bedded 700 yards from us. So we came up with a plan to skirt the rim of the canyon and drop down through a chute to get within 200 yards.
In the mean time, a turret twister pulls up with his wife and they small talk with us as they scan the canyon below. We tell them we have a bedded buck that we’re going after. They spot a nice 3x4 and decide to set up for the 600 yard poke. (Not knowing how BIG the buck is we were going after). The guy dials gun, gives it to wife, she shoots deer but buck doesn't go down. At that point, our buck stands up and we’re all trying to keep tabs on where he’s going when another shot rings out and I see dust kick up around the buck we were going after! They saw our buck and said screw the 3x4 at that point and just had to have that monster buck instead!
I confront the SOB and ask them why they are taking another shot at a different buck when they already wounded the first! He says oh we didn’t. We were just finishing off our buck. A heated argument ensued.
Our buck cleared the canyon to live another day. Words were exchanged and I told this guy and his wife they had better get their azz’s down there, find and recover their deer or I’d get the authorities involved.
I stuck around to baby sit them. I bet that woman quit hunting after that day! That was a nasty hike to “hopefully” recover a 3x4.
That’s why I do not appreciate the turret twisting cannons. Very few respect their capabilities. Everyone thinks, “just dial and shoot.”
Trail cams and other technology enable wildlife harassment at the expense of these creatures just trying to survive.
There’s a right and a wrong way to use all technology. Hard to regulate the wrong way so you ban it!
You’re correct. It won’t stop. But minimum viable solution is better than increasing the options for wounding more animals through technology.I agree with your story and agree we need to draw some lines in the sand, but I clearly remember guys banging at bucks across canyons with all calibers and regular crosshair, non turret scopes even back in the 80's and it will never stop.
We definitely are more efficient at cherry picking the best quality animals these days, but we are not killing "more" deer than before.You’re correct. It won’t stop. But minimum viable solution is better than increasing the options for wounding more animals through technology.
This topic is a never-ending discussion. A discussion that needs to be had before we remove quality altogether from our herds and force uninvited decisions to be made by our wildlife management reps.
Here’s the conclusion I’ve come to on this for me personally. I run cams for fun. Not hunting info. I’ll take my cams and my salt out when the snow allows me, and I’ll pick them up when it’s convenient for me. Probably around the first of November. I don’t mark my cams in any way, and I make sure my cards are cleared and have no pics of me on them when I leave. If the authorities or tattletale Nancy’s want to confiscate or report them, more power to them. I doubt they can get them off the tree, but again, if they feel the need to, I really don’t care either way. I’ve got plenty more to replace it with. I never get pics of other hunters any ways so I doubt this will be the year my sites are flooded with hunters. Regardless if it’s right or wrong, Doyle, his crew, sheep poacher and his minions, and other outfits will all have theirs out year round as well. Last time I checked I have just as much right to the public land and wildlife out there as they do. And I’m not selling the locations of these wildlife to hunters for a premium price. I’m just enjoying their beauty with my kids and family who aren’t physically fortunate enough to go see them themselves in person. Our government and authorities are so fukt in these days, when was the last time they did ANYTHING to benefit anyone but themselves. They’ve spent the last year ruining an economy, lying to the public, destroying lives, violating personal and American rights, and all for what? Definitely not the good of the people. Or the good of our nation. This bill isn’t for the good of the people, the wildlife or the resources. There’s a personal agenda being pushed here, which is why they are bypassing the current system they have in place to discuss and enact new laws regarding hunting, wildlife and natural resources.
so in summary, take my cams. take a little more of my freedom. And take a little more of my happiness, which is getting harder and harder to find these days. I don’t care. I’ll keep putting more up. And you’ll have a dang hard time proving it’s my camera in the first place. If you do decide to invest time and resources to identify the ”criminal” taking pics of the wildlife, what a star detective you must be. Think of all the poaching crimes you could have solved with those resources, but chose to use them on a camera runner instead. Bravo.
I’ve never hunted 2 of the units I have cams in. Never even applied for tags in them. General units. I just like to spend time in the areas.You put out salt and cams just for fun! Right. That makes sense.
But you can only put them up legally on land you share with me if a majority of people say it is legal to do so.
I’ve never hunted 2 of the units I have cams in. Never even applied for tags in them. General units. I just like to spend time in the areas.
You're correct. @Dirt_Road_Warrior is wrong, there is not an exemption for outfitters.Where does it say that outfitters are exempt from this on public land? If it really says that, then I change my vote. Anyone can use them on private land, but if such a law passes, it has better apply to anyone on public. If not, it is truly a waste of the paper it is written on.
Here is the bill and I can’t see where anyone is exempt on public land except govt. am I missing it?
Utah Legislature HB0295S01
le.utah.gov
You're correct. @Dirt_Road_Warrior is wrong, there is not an exemption for outfitters.
Of course it doesnt say they are exempt. But we all know they will be. When have outfitters and guides been subject to follow laws and regulations that peasants have to follow? Look At the Nebo bighorn sheep incident. Had your average hunter done that chit, they would have hung him in the streets publicly. Did anything happen to the outfitter or hunters involved on that deal? No. Last time I checked, the public can’t go run a camera line out on Antelope island. They’d crucify them if they did. But Doyle has cams strung all over that place. What about harassing deer to push them into a legal hunting area? If a public hunter did that, they’d lose hunting right for YEARS. WLH does it and they just get asked to leave. There’s incident after incident involving guides and outfitters doing shadyshit all the time and does anything ever happen to them? No. The public hunter does it though, and they make examples out of them.You're correct. @Dirt_Road_Warrior is wrong, there is not an exemption for outfitters.
Wow, you’re too dumb to even understand his basic comment. That’s too bad.That's actually an incorrect statement and not how your government works.
No, the only ones who know what’s on those cameras are my children. I don’t sell out animals to people just to be liked by people. You wanna know what’s in an area I’m watching? Get out of bed early and go for a hike yourselfI stand corrected.
That would also imply that you haven’t shared any info from them with people who have hunted those areas.
To be honest, I have used and enjoyed cams on public and private, so I will be sad if that has to end. But I will understand the reasons, and am ok with giving up something to gain something.
Of course it doesnt say they are exempt. But we all know they will be. When have outfitters and guides been subject to follow laws and regulations that peasants have to follow? Look At the Nebo bighorn sheep incident. Had your average hunter done that chit, they would have hung him in the streets publicly. Did anything happen to the outfitter or hunters involved on that deal? No. Last time I checked, the public can’t go run a camera line out on Antelope island. They’d crucify them if they did. But Doyle has cams strung all over that place. What about harassing deer to push them into a legal hunting area? If a public hunter did that, they’d lose hunting right for YEARS. WLH does it and they just get asked to leave. There’s incident after incident involving guides and outfitters doing shadyshit all the time and does anything ever happen to them? No. The public hunter does it though, and they make examples out of them.
You're 100% correct that there is a double standard with certain outfitters and organizations.Of course it doesnt say they are exempt. But we all know they will be. When have outfitters and guides been subject to follow laws and regulations that peasants have to follow? Look At the Nebo bighorn sheep incident. Had your average hunter done that chit, they would have hung him in the streets publicly. Did anything happen to the outfitter or hunters involved on that deal? No. Last time I checked, the public can’t go run a camera line out on Antelope island. They’d crucify them if they did. But Doyle has cams strung all over that place. What about harassing deer to push them into a legal hunting area? If a public hunter did that, they’d lose hunting right for YEARS. WLH does it and they just get asked to leave. There’s incident after incident involving guides and outfitters doing shadyshit all the time and does anything ever happen to them? No. The public hunter does it though, and they make examples out of them.
No, the only ones who know what’s on those cameras are my children. I don’t sell out animals to people just to be liked by people. You wanna know what’s in an area I’m watching? Get out of bed early and go for a hike yourself
That's why it hasn't gotten through the Wildlife Board. Hopefully this legislation takes it out of their hands and do what should've been done long ago.Which is why it prob won’t pass. Outfitters will try hard to kill it.
Wow, you’re too dumb to even understand his basic comment. That’s too bad.
Fair point of view, for certain. The viewpoint could easily be flipped though, if the next piece of legislation is something you feel equally passionate about but that the proposed legislation does not support. I've said it many times, I'm not instantly against regulations here, but I'm definitely against this bill as it currently stands and it currently written. Back to the drawing board to solve some of the very clear issues (ie, cameras are used for more than just hunting (think campsites, traplines, etc and salt is or isn't bait, among others) and run it through the proper channels, let's talk.My support for this change is not based on the legislator that is pushing the bill. Nor is it based upon the amount (or lack) of research studies or polls conducted. My support is based upon my own personal hunting experiences in the mountains and common sense. It would be nice if the wildlife board would address an issue like this but that process is largely broken. Trail cams and baiting or a major problem and that problem will only get worse if we do not address it now.
Kudos to SFW for coming out in support of this bill. I have busted their balls on many occasions but I’m happy to recognize when they are on the right side of an issue.
Im not an outfitter. I’m not targeting trophy animals. My camera photos of “trophy” animals are not being used to sell locations of animals and essentially placing hits on those trophy animals. I’m not guiding people to these animals and I’m not making money off it. In no way does what my trail cam purpose mirror what an outfitters does. The whole thing is to help trophy animals evade being detected right? My cams are used to let me know if cow elk have moved into or out of my area, so I’ll know where I need to be hunting that week with my general OTC tag. Not with my client who paid 50k and is flying in once I call him to tell him I know which tree he’s currently asleep under.I hear your frustration, and there is a lot of truth in what you say, but I guarantee you that If this passes, it won’t be the wildlife dept that enforces it, it will be normal hunters that hunt those areas. So Doyle’s cameras aren’t staying up any more than yours, if a hunter who knows the law finds them.
But it’s a little ironic that you rail against outfitters using them, but it would be ok for you to continue.
if you think WLH and MB will be taking their cams down aug 1 just like everyone else is expected to, then you haven’t been paying attention to what’s been going on around the state every year and the crap both outfits keep pulling and getting away with.
If states managed wildlife herd numbers by issuing one tag for each animal they want removed from the population that they want removed that would be one thing but that's not the way it is. Here in Utah they manage for money. If they think that the success rate for a particular hunt is 20% then they will Issue five times the number of tags compared to the number of animals they expect to be killed.Welp, what we have here is someone confused what protecting wildlife really is. Using, or not using, a laser range finder is not protecting or harming wildlife in anyway. If said laser burned a hole in them, your arguement would have validity.
A game camera disrupting the ability of wildlife to go about their business of survival unfettered for a period of time is another matter.
If hunting is a means of herd management, the more proficient the predator, the easier it is to meet management quotas. Knowing yardage prior to shot execution allows you, as the hunter, to decide to take the shot or not based on your ability.
As far as tech in general being ostracized as poor wildlife game laws, better saddle up Hoss, because your 4x4 hurts wildlife by helping you get yourself up to them without expending as much effort.
Disagree just to disagree. I'll wait...
As long as the hunter is willing to just fill the tag for the intended purpose of herd management. As long as the total of the mighty bone inches is a thing, tech will never have the impact it's implied to have.If states managed wildlife herd numbers by issuing one tag for each animal they want removed from the population that they want removed that would be one thing but that's not the way it is. Here in Utah they manage for money. If they think that the success rate for a particular hunt is 20% then they will Issue five times the number of tags compared to the number of animals they expect to be killed.
The truth is they don't usually have a clue what the herd size is and because they don't require notification of every tag filled success rates could be double or triple what they think they are. With increasingly efficient hunting tools and methods those success rates will only increase and the state is too stupid to recognize this.
That is hysterical coming from captain keyboard!Do yall ever stop to think about the childish garbage you are typing??????
If you only knew what I'm doing right now.?That is hysterical coming from captain keyboard!
If your argument is that trailers left on the mountain should be towed away... I totally agree. They need to increase enforcement.do you not already have rules and regulations regarding leaning personal property on the mountain for longer than say, oh, 14 days? Like a trailer? And how often is that rule enforced? Pretty close to never.
I bet it involves a picture of Wade Lemon.If you only knew what I'm doing right now.?
My argument is these trailer laws have been in effect for how many years? And how often is it enforced? Even when reported? Almost never. And you think officials policing trail cam violations will be more likely to happen? Yeah right! A trailer is next to a road and they won’t ticket or tow violators. Trail cams deep in the hills? Hahahaha that’s a big ‘NO’.If your argument is that trailers left on the mountain should be towed away... I totally agree. They need to increase enforcement.
Or it can pay for your surgery and hospital visits after you messed with the wrong persons personal property!Oh well. At least we can “legally” pick up the plastic trash during hunting season. Gonna have a lot of trail cams to sell on Craig’s List come this fall! All these illegal cams are gonna help pay for my hunts! Can’t wait!
I didn't say I'd hurt someone over a trail cam but there are plenty of guys out there that would. I'm personally not going to steal or damage someone else's property unless the law specifically says you can remove them and turn them into a specific agency.You're so tough ridge
Lighten up Ridge!Or it can pay for your surgery and hospital visits after you messed with the wrong persons personal property!