Utah Wildlife Board meets tomorrow (March 10) for trail camera hearing

[slamdunk]

Fixed power scopes on rifles no higher than 6x

No laser rangefinders

No scoped muzzys

Let's get it on the agenda. @slamdunk if you will help get the MDF onboard. @hossblur please make a call to your buddy Troy Justensen to get SFW on board. With Sneider on our side and the board genuinely concerned about making changes to improve herd health this should receive 0 pushback. Let's make it happen!

The MDF aren't lobbyists for hunting like some of the other organizations ?

 

[Bigwiffy]

The MDF aren't lobbyists for hunting like some of the other organizations ?

We are lobbying for the health of mule our deer herds, is that not what you've been boasting about MDF that they are all about? Don't drag your feet on this Slam, we need you, the deer need you! Get it done. @hossblur how we coming with Troy on the SFW front? Any progress? Don loves an actual hunt, they should get behind this no problem! Thanks guys for your help! Keep us posted.

 

[Vanilla]

Catapults

I would support banning catapults for big game hunting in Utah.

 

[Vanilla]

Also, the trail cam ban was never framed as helping deer herds by the wildlife board or the legislature.

That was a straw man argument created by those who wanted to keep cams online to argue against it. But that was never part of the real discussion. Cameras were a social issue, not biological.

 

[Robiland]

Its the 1 or 2% of hunters who have the abilities and skills to make 1000 yard kills.
The other 98% of successful hunters are still harvesting game under 400 yards, regardless of how fancy their rifles are.

I agree!

Although, we need to fix the muzzy problem. I helped a guy that shot his LE bull at 400 yards, and bragged that he was good out to 700. That 400 is further than any rifle animal I have taken. But you are right, Killing bucks is not the problem. It is 100% the does and fawns survival!!!!!

Keep us informed of your projects. This summer when I get some free time, Id like to come help.

Landon

 

[elkhunterUT]

Its the 1 or 2% of hunters who have the abilities and skills to make 1000 yard kills.
The other 98% of successful hunters are still harvesting game under 400 yards, regardless of how fancy their rifles are.

That is true, but what about the impact of deer wounded and never followed up on by those who don't have the skills to make a 1000 yard shot, but think they do because they have a rifle "set up" to do so. I don't know how big of an impact that has on herds, but it definitely has one.

 

[slamdunk]

That is true, but what about the impact of deer wounded and never followed up on by those who don't have the skills to make a 1000 yard shot, but think they do because they have a rifle "set up" to do so. I don't know how big of an impact that has on herds, but it definitely has one.

Thats an extremely touchy subject.

I gave up archery for that very reason, and my shots were all under 100 yards.

Let's not divert to this ugly topic of wound loss ?

 

[slamdunk]

I agree!

Although, we need to fix the muzzy problem. I helped a guy that shot his LE bull at 400 yards, and bragged that he was good out to 700. That 400 is further than any rifle animal I have taken. But you are right, Killing bucks is not the problem. It is 100% the does and fawns survival!!!!!

Keep us informed of your projects. This summer when I get some free time, Id like to come help.

Landon

I'll try to PM you of projects, I get tired of fighting people when I post them.

We just did one last weekend and are at the ongoing Santaquin WMA this coming Saturday.

 

[Bigwiffy]

We are lobbying for the health of mule our deer herds, is that not what you've been boasting about MDF that they are all about? Don't drag your feet on this Slam, we need you, the deer need you! Get it done. @hossblur how we coming with Troy on the SFW front? Any progress? Don loves an actual hunt, they should get behind this no problem! Thanks guys for your help! Keep us posted.

Laughing? That's a slap in the face from a member of the MDF. Can we count on you to help get behind this initiative or not? How can we get this rolling with MDF? We also plan on moving the rifle elk hunt out of the rut. Thanks Slam for your help in supporting this much needed piece of legislation. MDF has my membership as we together make this change!

 

[slamdunk]

Laughing? That's a slap in the face from a member of the MDF. Can we count on you to help get behind this initiative or not? How can we get this rolling with MDF? We also plan on moving the rifle elk hunt out of the rut. Thanks Slam for your help in supporting this much needed piece of legislation. MDF has my membership as we together make this change!

As I stated....MDF doesn't lobby "hunting", but as an individual and a general public, I can and will support "sensible" changes.

 

[Bigwiffy]

As I stated....MDF doesn't lobby "hunting", but as an individual and a general public, I can and will support "sensible" changes.

Perfect! I knew you would come through on this. It will be tough to put our long range setups away during hunting season, but we can still kill targets, coyotes etc. Now could we ask your help in getting SFW onboard? We can make this happen potentially before the 22 hunting season starts. Exciting to see some real change happening in this state!

 

[JakeH]

Perfect! I knew you would come through on this. It will be tough to put our long range setups away during hunting season, but we can still kill targets, coyotes etc. Now could we ask your help in getting SFW onboard? We can make this happen potentially before the 22 hunting season starts. Exciting to see some real change happening in this state!

You ain't getting anything new passed before 22 season. 23 yeah it's possible.

 

[Bigwiffy]

You ain't getting anything new passed before 22 season. 23 yeah it's possible.

I agree Jake, realistically we are shooting for 23. Your support is much appreciated!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Speaking of 2023 Remember everyone.
The Elk committee meets up this year and there will be some changes for next year.
My advice to you is to get involved with this, the way the points creep is getting out of hand.
They will be targeting either GS side or the LE side.

 

[JakeH]

Speaking of 2023 Remember everyone.
The Elk committee meets up this year and there will be some changes for next year.
My advice to you is to get involved with this, the way the points creep is getting out of hand.
They will be targeting either GS side or the LE side.

Any more details you can give about the who/what/where will be targeted? or point me in the direction to find out on my own? Are there any proposals out for any of this?

 

[slamdunk]

Perfect! I knew you would come through on this. It will be tough to put our long range setups away during hunting season, but we can still kill targets, coyotes etc. Now could we ask your help in getting SFW onboard? We can make this happen potentially before the 22 hunting season starts. Exciting to see some real change happening in this state!

Sure, I'll give Peayday a call tonight and tell him that you want to stop killing bucks to increase our herd sizes, he'll be all over your outstanding biological assessment!?

 

[Bigwiffy]

Sure, I'll give Peayday a call tonight and tell him that you want to stop killing bucks to increase our herd sizes, he'll be all over your outstanding biological assessment!?

So you're not willing to support the bill?

 

[slamdunk]

@Bigwiffy
Let's hear your "sensible" thoughts on how to rebuild our deer herds since that's what the real problem is.

Saving a very low percentage of your "long range kills" isn't going to bring the deer herds back.
Tell me your proposal on how to increase doe numbers and let's have a realistic conversation for once.

 

[Bigwiffy]

@Bigwiffy
Let's hear your "sensible" thoughts on how to rebuild our deer herds since that's what the real problem is.

Saving a very low percentage of your "long range kills" isn't going to bring the deer herds back.
Tell me your proposal on how to increase doe numbers and let's have a realistic conversation for once.

Now hang on Slam. You were very supportive and vocal of the baiting ban, and trail cam ban. Both designed to help improve the overall hunt, and put the hunt back in hunting. Now a complete one 180? Help me understand why you won't support this tech proposal? I'm quite baffled.

 

[slamdunk]

Now hang on Slam. You were very supportive and vocal of the baiting ban, and trail cam ban. Both designed to help improve the overall hunt, and put the hunt back in hunting. Now a complete one 180? Help me understand why you won't support this tech proposal? I'm quite baffled.

Lmao....you're killin me Wiff!

How many people does it take to post that all these changes aren't in place to increase deer herds?
I too am baffled.....?

 

[LIK2HNT]

First quiz. How many know what this is.

Seen people shooting at elk running across a hill many times in the late ‘80’s and early ‘90’s. Not having a clue that they were shooting WAY past 1000 yards. They had 3x9 scopes and just kept aiming higher and higher.
In my opinion any anyone who can do this under field conditions should be able to without criticism from others. I have tracked a lot of animals for others that were shot poorly at under 100 yards.

 

[Bigwiffy]

Lmao....you're killin me Wiff!

How many people does it take to post that all these changes aren't in place to increase deer herds?
I too am baffled.....?

Oh this is additional tech ban. I may have not been clear my apologies. This will be very similar to the trail cam bill and baiting bill. If memory serves me right you were onboard with those? I just assumed you would support this bill as well. I'm just curious why you don't support it?

 

[hawkbill]

UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD MEETS TOMORROW FOR REMOVAL OF CHINESE PLASTIC FROM ALL OF UTAH‘S PUBLIC LANDS

 

[slamdunk]

UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD MEETS TOMORROW FOR REMOVAL OF CHINESE PLASTIC FROM ALL OF UTAH‘S PUBLIC LANDS

It's about time!!?

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Any more details you can give about the who/what/where will be targeted? or point me in the direction to find out on my own? Are there any proposals out for any of this?

Check your PM jake

 

[slamdunk]

Oh this is additional tech ban. I may have not been clear my apologies. This will be very similar to the trail cam bill and baiting bill. If memory serves me right you were onboard with those? I just assumed you would support this bill as well. I'm just curious why you don't support it?

You certainly are relentless at avoiding a real issue by masking it with your own armchair biological thought, but I will entertain it since I have nothing better to do at the moment.

Limit of 6x scopes on rifles-
Worthless.....it won't stop people from shooting long shots.
(My furthest kill was over 800 yards with a 25-06 with a 6x scope.....I hit the buck on shot #11 back in 1983)

Range finders-
I would make that sacrifice even though I don't use mine for long range kills anyway.

Open sight muzzleloaders-
I'm all for it.

Now your turn-
What's your proposal to increase doe counts since that is the most important factor?

 

[Bigwiffy]

You certainly are relentless at avoiding a real issue by masking it with your own armchair biological thought, but I will entertain it since I have nothing better to do at the moment.

Limit of 6x scopes on rifles-
Worthless.....it won't stop people from shooting long shots.
(My furthest kill was over 800 yards with a 25-06 with a 6x scope.....I hit the buck on shot #11 back in 1983)

Range finders-
I would make that sacrifice even though I don't use mine for long range kills anyway.

Open sight muzzleloaders-
I'm all for it.

Now your turn-
What's your proposal to increase doe counts since that is the most important factor?

So you don't support it or you do support it? It's simple yes or no.

 

[Vanilla]

No

 

[slamdunk]

So you don't support it or you do support it? It's simple yes or no.

Not as written, absolutely no.

Now, let's work on the REAL issue.....deer HERDS.

 

[slamdunk]

@Bigwiffy

Do you have facts, data or true testimonials that people using scopes over 6x are killing the vast majority of bucks during rifle season?

Do you have facts, data or true testimonials that rangefinders are responsible for killing the vast majority of bucks on all 3 seasons?

Do you have facts, data or true testimonials that scopes on muzzleloaders are responsible for helping to kill the vast majority of bucks on that season? (this one i can agree with, but it's not factual, it's a valid assumption)

Where's your archery equipment cuts??

Until you do, your "proposal" is just an emotionally driven idea with no basis or merit.

 

[Bigwiffy]

@Bigwiffy

Do you have facts, data or true testimonials that people using scopes over 6x are killing the vast majority of bucks during rifle season?

Do you have facts, data or true testimonials that rangefinders are responsible for killing the vast majority of bucks on all 3 seasons?

Do you have facts, data or true testimonials that scopes on muzzleloaders are responsible for helping to kill the vast majority of bucks on that season? (this one i can agree with, but it's not factual, it's a valid assumption)

Where's your archery equipment cuts??

Until you do, your "proposal" is just an emotionally driven idea with no basis or merit.

Oh ok that sounds a lot like the trail cam bill and bait bill that you and many others were fully supportive of. I'll take your inability to answer as No you aren't supportive of this one, based on you aren't willing to give up your long range scope. To throw you a bone limiting long range technology would absolutely be my starting point to decrease harvest and increase opportunity. Here are your facts: guns kill more than bows.

 

[slamdunk]

Oh ok that sounds a lot like the trail cam bill and bait bill that you and many others were fully supportive of. I'll take your inability to answer as No you aren't supportive of this one, based on you aren't willing to give up your long range scope. To throw you a bone limiting long range technology would absolutely be my starting point to decrease harvest and increase opportunity. Here are your facts: guns kill more than bows.

Lol.....?

There were and are plenty of facts surrounding the baiting and cameras effects, that is exactly why a REAL PROPOSAL turned into law.
Your "idea" is solely based off emotion alone.

Now.....how are you going to help the doe numbers?

 

[Bigwiffy]

Lol.....?

There were and are plenty of facts surrounding the baiting and cameras effects, that is exactly why a REAL PROPOSAL turned into law.
Your "idea" is solely based off emotion alone.

Now.....how are you going to help the doe numbers?

You're on another planet and in complete denial. So your saying success rates are based off emotions? Slam c'mon you're digging yourself a hole. It's ok to say you don't want to give up your tech when it impacts you and you wouldn't support the bill. That's all I asked yes or no. I'll put you in the no camp on my survey. I do appreciate what you and MDF do, but that's not what this is about.

 

[slamdunk]

@Bigwiffy

I already told you my answer, see above.

Not quite sure how you bundled success rates into emotion when I clearly separated the two?

I also told you I support the idea of open sights on muzzies 100%.

I would be willing to sacrifice my rangefinder, even though I clearly stated I don't use it for unsensible ranges regardless of my scope or caliber choices.
Personally I think a better approach would be to compromise and limit a rangefinder distance to 400 yards so hunters could be accurate at "close range" with their 6x scope, open sight muzzy or zero electronically equipped archery setup.
Just an quick thought of course...

So tell us.....what are YOU giving up out of your personal arsenal?

Still waiting on your ideas to help "herds" without focusing on an issue that won't solve the much bigger problem.

Thank you for the MDF comment, I do appreciate that.

 

[Bigwiffy]

@Bigwiffy

I already told you my answer, see above.

Not quite sure how you bundled success rates into emotion when I clearly separated the two?

I also told you I support the idea of open sights on muzzies 100%.

I would be willing to sacrifice my rangefinder, even though I clearly stated I don't use it for unsensible ranges regardless of my scope or caliber choices.
Personally I think a better approach would be to compromise and limit a rangefinder distance to 400 yards so hunters could be accurate at "close range" with their 6x scope, open sight muzzy or zero electronically equipped archery setup.
Just an quick thought of course...

So tell us.....what are YOU giving up out of your personal arsenal?

Still waiting on your ideas to help "herds" without focusing on an issue that won't solve the much bigger problem.

Thank you for the MDF comment, I do appreciate that.

As an archery hunter I've given up cams, bait. Those two mainly impacted archery guys. I don't use a slider, don't use a Garmin Zero or electronic sight. I would be fine to throw that stuff in the ban list. I do use a rangefinder occasionally would give it up. What else you want archery guys to give up? We could go to recurves if you'd like? What have you given up? This is where I would start to help the herds limiting our highest success rate weapon, then partner with you in improving habitat, fencing, otc bear and cougar permits. Elk wise I'd pull the rifle hunt out of the rut, quit killing pregnant cows on late antlerless hunts to start.

 

[Elkslayer]

You make it sound like archers are the only ones giving up something. The gun hunter's aren't going to use baiting and cameras as well. Bow hunter's can still kill animals without those things, maybe.

 

[slamdunk]

As an archery hunter I've given up cams, bait. Those two mainly impacted archery guys. I don't use a slider, don't use a Garmin Zero or electronic sight. I would be fine to throw that stuff in the ban list. I do use a rangefinder occasionally would give it up. What else you want archery guys to give up? We could go to recurves if you'd like? What have you given up? This is where I would start to help the herds limiting our highest success rate weapon, then partner with you in improving habitat, fencing, otc bear and cougar permits. Elk wise I'd pull the rifle hunt out of the rut, quit killing pregnant cows on late antlerless hunts to start.

Now we are getting somewhere!!

I stand behind your elk views 100% even though there's no real fight or detrimental issues with our elk herds.
Our elk numbers are very strong, we just aren't killing dozens of 400" bulls off every unit like the early 2000's when we spoiled ourselves.
I am 100% against killing late season cows. One harvest equals two dead elk.
Our biggest enemy in elk numbers are the cattlemen and free range grazers.

 

[treedagain]

Plenty of reduced priced trail cams on camofire

 

[Vanilla]

Getting rid of rangefinders for anyone is a terrible idea. Have you ever seen people guess ranges in the field?

Talk about inviting a whole crap ton of TERRIBLE shots from everyone in the field. Even with a 6x scope, a 300 yard shot is very doable. What is the normal drop from 200 to 300 yards? How many people can “guess” those distances accurately? (Very few to none is the answer) Then bring archers into the equation. How many times have we heard this already? “Well, I figured he was 30 yards so I let the arrow fly. Then I ranged it after and he was really 47 yards.”

Yeah, rangefinders should be the LAST technology we get rid of.

 

[Bigwiffy]

You make it sound like archers are the only ones giving up something. The gun hunter's aren't going to use baiting and cameras as well. Bow hunter's can still kill animals without those things, maybe.

Getting rid of rangefinders for anyone is a terrible idea. Have you ever seen people guess ranges in the field?

Talk about inviting a whole crap ton of TERRIBLE shots from everyone in the field. Even with a 6x scope, a 300 yard shot is very doable. What is the normal drop from 200 to 300 yards? How many people can “guess” those distances accurately? (Very few to none is the answer) Then bring archers into the equation. How many times have we heard this already? “Well, I figured he was 30 yards so I let the arrow fly. Then I ranged it after and he was really 47 yards.”

Yeah, rangefinders should be the LAST technology we get rid of.

If you shoot for 30yards and the target is 47yards you hit a foot low. Clean miss, buck runs off to fight another day. I get your point and agree with you though. Ok so we keep rangefinders with a 400 yard max capacity, keep no more than 6x scopes on our rifles, and back to 1x for muzzys. Is that fair?

 

[slamdunk]

Getting rid of rangefinders for anyone is a terrible idea. Have you ever seen people guess ranges in the field?

Talk about inviting a whole crap ton of TERRIBLE shots from everyone in the field. Even with a 6x scope, a 300 yard shot is very doable. What is the normal drop from 200 to 300 yards? How many people can “guess” those distances accurately? (Very few to none is the answer) Then bring archers into the equation. How many times have we heard this already? “Well, I figured he was 30 yards so I let the arrow fly. Then I ranged it after and he was really 47 yards.”

Yeah, rangefinders should be the LAST technology we get rid of.

I completely agree, I was just trying to compromise for the sake of entertaining the "proposal"?

 

[slamdunk]

If you shoot for 30yards and the target is 47yards you hit a foot low. Clean miss, buck runs off to fight another day. I get your point and agree with you though. Ok so we keep rangefinders with a 400 yard max capacity, keep no more than 6x scopes on our rifles, and back to 1x for muzzys. Is that fair?

1x is actually taking away from natural eye sight, you're better off going open sight.

 

[LIK2HNT]

1x is actually taking away from natural eye sight, you're better off going open sight.

Agree, scopes should be 1.5x or whatever natural eye sight is to accommodate aging eyesight.

 

[slamdunk]

I believe natural eye is 1.2?

 

[Vanilla]

If you shoot for 30yards and the target is 47yards you hit a foot low. Clean miss, buck runs off to fight another day. I get your point and agree with you though. Ok so we keep rangefinders with a 400 yard max capacity, keep no more than 6x scopes on our rifles, and back to 1x for muzzys. Is that fair?

So now you’re only okay with limiting rifle hunters? Sounds like you’re going down the road you were hack in’ on slamdunk for now. Shame shame, wiffy. Shame shame.

 

[Bigwiffy]

So now you’re only okay with limiting rifle hunters? Sounds like you’re going down the road you were hack in’ on slamdunk for now. Shame shame, wiffy. Shame shame.

Shame on me for saying it how it is. Ban it all you say ban those baits! Ban this cameras, ban those guides, ban everything! Just not my gun, scope, rangefinder and tag! Haha Shame on you Vanilla Shame on you. Shame Shame Shame Shame Shame Shame on the Bigwiffy!

 

[hawkbill]

This thread was about removing Chinese Plastic Film Devices from public lands in Utah where it is a known fact that they bother wildlife and aid hunters and outfitters in the harassment and harvest of wildlife. Let’s not get off track.