Very good podcast.

[Hawkeye]

Precisely right.

Lumpy-

This might be a first - you and I agreeing on a substantive issue.

If Don Peay and SFW are no longer supporting habitat improvement projects for mule deer, what exactly are they spending those millions of dollars in conservation permit and expo permit money on these days? I certainly never heard that SFW had moved away from funding those types of projects. Did SFW publicize that decision? In any event, I like much of the work that conservation groups do. I just don't think the average sportsmen sees any substantive return on the 500+ premium tags taken to finance these groups each year. I would happily support these groups, like I did 10+ years ago, if Utah eliminated those tags (see Arizona) and conservation groups had to fund their efforts through actual donations, banquets, etc.

Hawkeye

 

[2lumpy]

Professor McMillan is the current Central Region RAC chair. He needs to press and lobby the Governor to add him (and others who believe in and follow actual data) to the Wildlife Board at the next vacancy.

I appreciate the WB and their service, but many of them over the past few years have difficulty orally communicating an intelligible thought, and too many of them have had direct links to the special interest groups (e.g., SFW, CWMUs) that have caused many of our issues in Utah.

Let's actually get some smart people on the WB who can understand and articulate the issues and workable solutions.

I have upmost regard for Doc McMillin, as a biologist and citizen. There is an issue that I believe needs to be considered, when it comes to appointments to Boards and Committees, when dealing with State Bureaucracies. I have dealt with this first hand and it’s a real as the rising sun.

That issue is hard currency. I have been appointed to set on a number of State/Local committees over the years. To name a few, State Higher Education Committees, Federal Lands Committees, State Wildlife Committees, etc. These committees have been made up of between 9 to 15 members, with each person representing various groups of government and public such as agriculture, local economics, business, wildlife, sportsmen, conservation orgs. and maybe one or two members from what is called “at large members”…… who have some knowledge of the issues but do not represent any specific group…… if that makes sense.

Without question, there is a great deal of desire for the various groups involved in the issues to want representation on the Committee/Board. The Bureaucracy that forms the Committee/Board have a powerful influence over who is selected to set on these Committees/Boards. While they may ask for public input when it comes to applications, they make darn sure the people they want on the C/B apply and they darn sure chose from the applicants, those individuals most inclined to support the ideology of the Bureaucracy. While, in the case were it’s the Governor that officially names the appointee, the Governor, no matter who the Governor is, relies almost entirely on the Bureaucracy to coach him on the choice he ultimately, makes. How could he not, there is no way a Governor has the time to personally get to know each applicant that’s recommended. It’s foolish to suppose otherwise.

The bottom line is the C/B end up being made up of 80-90% members being, in some way or another beholden to the Bureaucracy directly or indirectly for money.

Let’s take an indirect example that we can all relate to: When it comes to wildlife C/B that are formed. You have all likely noticed there always seems to be someone on the C/B that represents the CMWU owners. We all know the CMWU as an organization has no desire to get cross ways with the Wildlife Board or the Bureaucracy because the consequences of discontinuing or altering the CWMU program would have a direct impact on the CWMU members income. So, when it comes time to make hard votes for or against the Bureaucracy, who do you think the CWMU appointee will support, the Bureaucracy or the at large public sportsmen’s appointee?

Another example, most of these C/B have USFS and BLM government land appointees, to represent the Federal Land. The law says the Feds manage the land and the State Bureaucracy controls the wildlife. 99% of the time, the Feds on the C/B will vote to support the State Bureaucracy because……. they either don’t want to vote against their State partner or they figure the public are a bunch of selfish idiots that don’t know sh!!t about the science or the issue.

At the end of the day, the C/B are heavily loaded with carefully selected and money dependent appointees, by the Bureaucracy.

So…… in the case of BYU/Utah Stste/Dr. McMillin……. Universities and independent science laboratories are greatly funded by Bureaucratic grants, applied for by the research institutions. They live or die by these grants…….. and it is a cold day in hell when you will find them biting the hand that feeds them.

That’s my experience……. your’s may differ entirely. Regardless, just saying, be careful what you wish for.

 

[2lumpy]

Lumpy-

This might be a first - you and I agreeing on a substantive issue.

If Don Peay and SFW are no longer supporting habitat improvement projects for mule deer, what exactly are they spending those millions of dollars in conservation permit and expo permit money on these days? I certainly never heard that SFW had moved away from funding those types of projects. Did SFW publicize that decision? In any event, I like much of the work that conservation groups do. I just don't think the average sportsmen sees any substantive return on the 500+ premium tags taken to finance these groups each year. I would happily support these groups, like I did 10+ years ago, if Utah eliminated those tags (see Arizona) and conservation groups had to fund their efforts through actual donations, banquets, etc.

Hawkeye

I’m out of breath after the last diatribe but I will answer your questions, to the best of my ability, as soon as I garner some more energy.

 

[jims]

Thanks for the link to the WRI website. There definitely has been a lot of habitat projects completed throughout Utah. It is really exciting that so many projects have been completed. There has been millions spent funding these projects, but I couldn't find any links to any of the results.

It would be interesting to know which of these projects were effective and which were a waste of time and money. As a prime example, millions may have been spent improving habitat but if cheatgrass invaded these sites the improvement project likely did little to nothing to improve native species diversity, vigor, and health.

I can think of several habitat improvement projects that may do more harm than good if done improperly.

Is there a link to the results from these projects? Have any of these results been published?

 

[2lumpy]

Lumpy-

This might be a first - you and I agreeing on a substantive issue.

If Don Peay and SFW are no longer supporting habitat improvement projects for mule deer, what exactly are they spending those millions of dollars in conservation permit and expo permit money on these days? I certainly never heard that SFW had moved away from funding those types of projects. Did SFW publicize that decision? In any event, I like much of the work that conservation groups do. I just don't think the average sportsmen sees any substantive return on the 500+ premium tags taken to finance these groups each year. I would happily support these groups, like I did 10+ years ago, if Utah eliminated those tags (see Arizona) and conservation groups had to fund their efforts through actual donations, banquets, etc.

Hawkeye

I cannot speak to SFW’s position regarding funding habitat. I can only tell you what Don said, a number of years ago and I can’t quote you his exact words at that. It was during a period of time while I was on a Fish Lake Elk Management Committee where, sportsman had supported a reduction the Fish Lake Unit elk population by something like 3,500 less elk, from 7,500 head, to to allow the livestockmen and the U.S. Forest Service and the BLM to improve the Fish Lake Winter Range. SFW had made a large matching funding donation that allowed the project to go forward. The project took a number of years to complete but after it was complete the Federal lands agents told the Fish Lake Elk Management Plan Committee the project was completed and had been very successful, to the extent there was now X thousand tons of surplus feed on the Fish Lake winter range. As soon as the sportsmen were told that we immediately told the Fish Lake Elk Management Plan Committee we want our elk numbers increased back to 7,500 head. The Committee was made up of more livestock and government agents than it was of sportsmen, they out voted us, and would not support restoring the elk we had agreed to give up, at the beginning of the project.

In the same meeting, the livestock and land owners asked SFW to donate another large sum of money to match a Federal grant so they could rebuild the dam on Mill Meadows Reservoir.

Don’s response was, (paraphrased by me) No more money for habitat. It was after that SWF started the fawn survival and the coyote bounty programs.

What has happened since then…… I have no knowledge because I have not been an active member for many years. I know SFW donate to the Cheatgrass/Rejuvra projects beyond that I have no idea.

As I’ve said, numerous times, it’s no longer my concern. I’m only trying to keep the history as accurate as I can, and obviously I’m not doing a very good job of that either.

So…… as I said, I have no idea what projects they fund at the present time, but I’ll make this guess, the Bureaucracy makes damn sure they get every penny they have coming to them, from these 500 tags. Only the most naive would believe otherwise. (Truthfully, no offense intended.) Regarding the tags used to generate these dollars, it always has been and will continue to be the government that decides whether the tags come or go away, it will never be SFW or MDF.

Remember this, a few million dollars a year, that are not encumbered by the same rules as the State’s budget funding are very advantageous to the Bureaucracy, in a good way, in my opinion. It means when there is an emergency within the system, whether it be to money to buy feed emergency winter feeding projects or if Strawberry needs a new boat/barge to do DWR work on the reservoir etc etc. that aren’t in the budget, they can immediately call on these funds from the MDF and SWF donations.

Here’s a question for you Hawkeye, without trying to be rhetorical in anyway. When push comes to shove, who do you think has ultimate power in these matters….. the Bureaucrats or SFW? Asking for historical records.

 

[elkassassin]

We Need To Get PEAYDAY Back On The Forums Here!

It's Been A While!

 

[2lumpy]

We Need To Get PEAYDAY Back On The Forums Here!

It's Been A While!

If I were Don, I would never spend a micro second here.

 

[elkassassin]

He Doesn't & Hasn't In A Long Damn Time!

If I were Don, I would never spend a micro second here.

 

[jims]

The thought that deer numbers haven’t improved from years of work and millions of dollars spent raises a lot of concern and questions.

 

[elkassassin]

With STATUS QUO Management They Ain't Coming Back!

The Few Times A Unit/Units Have Gained Some Ground They Fixed That Real Quick!

Now We've Got The: DOUBLE THE TAGS,DOUBLE THE TAGS Mentality Management!

 

[Hawkeye]

Here’s a question for you Hawkeye, without trying to be rhetorical in anyway. When push comes to shove, who do you think has ultimate power in these matters….. the Bureaucrats or SFW? Asking for historical records.

Lumpy-

Thanks for the response. I always enjoy a productive discussion even if we don’t agree on certain points.

I personally think the bureaucrats and the leaders of these groups are very closely aligned. For instance, as I posted several times over the years, Don and his entities have made donations to the campaigns of key politicians and decision makers, and campaigned on their behalf. Don then has the ear of those folks on key decisions such as legislation, appointments to WB and RACs, keys positions within DWR, creation and renewal of expo contract, etc. There is a close and intertwined relationship between SFW, the DWR, the WB and key politicians.

I saw this firsthand during the expo contract award process. SFW was plugged in at every stage of the process, including with legislators, the governor, the DWR, and even controlling 4 of the 7 seats on the WB. The reality is SFW and Don have played the game very well and at this point are fully entrenched in the system. As a result, I believe that SFW and the bureaucracy are one of the same. That is probably a good thing if you fully support the mission and the vision of SFW. If, however, you have concerns with SFW and the level of influence it has amassed, then it is cause for concern because the tail may be wagging the dog.

Jason

 

[Hawkeye]

He Doesn't & Hasn't In A Long Damn Time!

I think Don left this forum shortly after we tried to arrange the public debate between him and Randy Newburg. Those were the good ol’ days!

 

[2lumpy]

I believe that SFW and the bureaucracy are one of the same.

Jason

I will add this to my comment: of all the people I know or have met in the hunting wildlife community, I have the greatest respect for Don Peay, over everyone else. He’s not flawless but no one is. I would take a bullet for him.

Based on your comment, “I believe that SFW and the bureaucracy are one of the same” this seems your bottomline Jason, I however couldn’t disagree more.

Why do I disagree……..

Nothing ever stays the same Jason, conditions change, relationships evolve and unanticipated circumstances come into play. The adage “the best made plans of mice and men often go awry” is very true, and this relationship is no exception to the adage.

I’m going to end my part of this discussion by saying…….. things are not as you think, today is not 2007.

I’ll let you think about it now. All the best.

 

[Vanilla]

Let's actually get some smart people on the WB who can understand and articulate the issues and workable solutions.

We don’t necessarily need experts on the WB, but we need people smart enough to listen to those experts when they talk.

It’s pretty frustrating to go to a RAC meeting and listen to the DWR rep talk about study areas, mention that they have studies to show something won’t work, but are proposing it anyway. When asked by a RAC member why they are proposing it if they already know it won’t work…”So we can prove to the people in the public demanding it that it won’t work.”

We need to block out the noise and start letting biology, data, and sanity reign.

 

[elkassassin]

We don’t necessarily need experts on the WB, but we need people smart enough to listen to those experts when they talk.

It’s pretty frustrating to go to a RAC meeting and listen to the DWR rep talk about study areas, mention that they have studies to show something won’t work, but are proposing it anyway. When asked by a RAC member why they are proposing it if they already know it won’t work…”So we can prove to the people in the public demanding it that it won’t work.”

We need to block out the noise and start letting biology, data, and sanity reign.

So?

You're Sayin Alot Of STUPID SHHITT That's Been Tried In The Last 50+ Years Ain't Been Working Huh?

Imagine That!

 

[Vanilla]

So?

You're Sayin Alot Of STUPID SHHITT That's Been Tried In The Last 50+ Years Ain't Been Working Huh?

Imagine That!

Yes, number one being tag cuts.

You’re welcome for the education!

 

[elkassassin]

How Bout Some Units Destroyed With The Issue Of Too Many Tags?

Pipe Up!

And Pipe LOUD!

Yes, number one being tag cuts.

You’re welcome for the education!

 

[ridgetops]

How Bout Some Units Destroyed With The Issue Of Too Many Tags?

Pipe Up!

And Pipe LOUD!

Just go ahead and tell us yourself elkass

 

[elkassassin]

Hey ridge!

I've Told You & Others Thousands Of Times!

HINT:

Before You JUST DOUBLE THE TAGS,JUST DOUBLE THE TAGS,Let's Gain Some Deer Numbers So We Can Double The Tags!

This Is what Freedom Posted On The 1.8 Satisfaction Thread:

So the satisfaction rate for hunting deer on Thousand Lakes is painfully low....granted, the 1.8 is for "dedicated hunter" but for alll other deer hunts the satisfaction rate is in the 2s. Additionally, the harvest total for deer on Thousand Lakes is almost the worst in the entire state of Utah.
- My questions are why did they change this unit to a general public hunting unit in 2012?
-Why did they start issuing more than 10 times the amount of deer tags than they normally would have when it was LE?
- Why did they continue to issue 100s of tags every year when the deer herd was low to begin with and on a steady yearly decline?
So, where do we go from here. The reality of hunting deer on Thousand Lakes is its a vast, beautiful area with a very low deer population. Hopefully some day the management of deer can be such, that the deer can make a comeback.

Doesn't Sound Like This Unit Needs More tags Issued Just To See If It Might Improve!

Doesn't Sound Like You Need to Be A Biologist With DWR On Your Shirt To Figure Some Of This Out!

Or We Could Just keep Going The Same Direction We Have For The Last 50+ Years & See What Happens!

You want A Chance At A Decent Buck ridge?

Or Is A MOTL Buck Still Sucking On Mama Gonna Be OK?

Just go ahead and tell us yourself elkass

 

[elkassassin]

We All Need To Band Together & Get Niller & Some New Blood On The WB!

I Wanna See what Kinda Pull Niller Has & How Quick He Can Start Changing Things For The Better!

 

[Vanilla]

We All Need To Band Together & Get Niller & Some New Blood On The WB!

I Wanna See what Kinda Pull Niller Has & How Quick He Can Start Changing Things For The Better!

#metoo

 

[elkassassin]

So KING Niller?

What's The Process Of Getting On The WB?

#metoo

 

[2lumpy]

#metoo

I swore off further participation on this thread but I can’t help myself. I have no self respect!

So, Vanilla, and anyone else that has an opinion on growing more mule deer so more people can hunting and life the life style………… I’ve got a question.

Regarding the UDWR statement that they are going to try some different management strategies to prove/demonstrate they don’t work. (I think that’s what you said Vanilla….. am I right?

If they said that, it’s provoked a question in my mind: As the UDWR claims they are doing everything they can to reverse the declining population in the State mule deer………… is there any hunting/management strategy that hasn’t been tried and failed. If so, what strategy was it?

Habitat improvement has been tried.
Predator control has been tried.
Winter feeding has been tried.
Antler restriction has been tried.
Shorter hunts have been tried.
Independent unit management has been tried.
Aggressive tag cuts have been tried.
Primitive hunts have been tried.
Mule deer transplanted.

Millions spent, hours invested, hair pulled, people hired and fired, meetings held, scientific studies done, public input received, media investigation, Legislative audits published, These and more that don’t come to mind at the moment are the things they’ve tried and have failed.

Serious question…… what is there left to tried?

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Lumpy?

Have you Heard Of The New:

DOUBLE THE TAGS!

DOUBLE THE TAGS!

That'll Be The Next Thing You Can Add To Your List That FAILS!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Lumpy?

How Bout When We Shot Several Units Out & They Had To Be Closed For 5 Years?

 

[Vanilla]

Lump, I don’t claim to know the answer to the problem with mule deer in Utah. However, it’s also not my job or expertise to know. I am much more interested in what those whose job it is to know that think than any politicians, fake conservationists that are more concerned about making money for their personal fortune than protecting hunting, or just about any other hunter.

I believe there are aspects of this that are 100% out of our control. Like, we can’t control a decade + of extreme drought followed by the biggest winter on record. No human led programs can fully overcome that. But I do believe there are things within our power that we can do to help in a positive way.

You know what I’d love to see happen? I’d like to remove social aspects of policy making entirely for 5 years. Hire the best and brightest mule deer experts alive to come up with policies to run and let them do their thing completely unabridged by influence or whiny hunters. They set all policies related to mule deer, including hunting permits and policies.

I’d love to see what the results of that would be. I realize that will never happen, but a guy can dream!

 

[Vanilla]

So KING Niller?

What's The Process Of Getting On The WB?

When an opening happens, people apply, a committee nominates 3-5 people to interview with the governor, and then the governor appoints.

 

[elkassassin]

Well!

That Means You Should Be A Shoe-In!

When an opening happens, people apply, a committee nominates 3-5 people to interview with the governor, and then the governor appoints.

 

[elkantlers]

We don’t necessarily need experts on the WB, but we need people smart enough to listen to those experts when they talk.

It’s pretty frustrating to go to a RAC meeting and listen to the DWR rep talk about study areas, mention that they have studies to show something won’t work, but are proposing it anyway. When asked by a RAC member why they are proposing it if they already know it won’t work…”So we can prove to the people in the public demanding it that it won’t work.”

We need to block out the noise and start letting biology, data, and sanity reign.

Absolutely. I'd much rather have actual sportsman that spends time in the outdoors and see first hand what is happening and Interested in protecting our hunting rights than a bunch of educated idiots that think they know better because they read some books one time.

 

[jims]

I thought I would attach a couple fairly recent Utah cheatgrass projects that sound promising. Maybe some of you are aware of these projects? Obviously, long-term monitoring is important but hopefully preliminary results from these projects become available soon.

Utah's Watershed Restoration Initiative

Water Restoration Initiative run by DNR

wri.utah.gov

Utah's Watershed Restoration Initiative

Water Restoration Initiative run by DNR

wri.utah.gov

 

[2lumpy]

Lump, I don’t claim to know the answer to the problem with mule deer in Utah. However, it’s also not my job or expertise to know. I am much more interested in what those whose job it is to know that think than any politicians, fake conservationists that are more concerned about making money for their personal fortune than protecting hunting, or just about any other hunter.

I believe there are aspects of this that are 100% out of our control. Like, we can’t control a decade + of extreme drought followed by the biggest winter on record. No human led programs can fully overcome that. But I do believe there are things within our power that we can do to help in a positive way.

You know what I’d love to see happen? I’d like to remove social aspects of policy making entirely for 5 years. Hire the best and brightest mule deer experts alive to come up with policies to run and let them do their thing completely unabridged by influence or whiny hunters. They set all policies related to mule deer, including hunting permits and policies.

I’d love to see what the results of that would be. I realize that will never happen, but a guy can dream!

In every aspect on this earth, nature has the most power and control, that’s a fact but humans from the beginning of recorded history, humans have successfully mitigated nature by developing systems to, if not control it, at least buffer the consequence of nature doing its thing.

Example. Native Americans burnt off the prairie grasses every spring to draw wildlife back to areas they could access them, Europeans built aqua-ducts and irrigation systems to guarantee water for crops, North American immigrants cut prairie grass and stored it in barns to feed range cattle in the winter, Utah farmers built high fences around hay stacks to allow wildlife on their farms without destroying their hay. We figures out how to heat houses and cool them in the summer. So I’m not falling for the argument there is nothing we can do. We can.

So the answer I was hoping you would say is: Unit closures and concurrent maintenances projects, which have never failed in Utah, to my knowledge.

If nothing else works, why would we not do more of that, if their answers continues to be “we don’t know what to do.”

Oh well, I’ll sign off again.

 

[Vanilla]

Lump, I don’t think any of us in Utah would be happy if the deer and elk populations were today as they were when the Native Americans were burning prairie grasses and the European settlers were building irrigation ditches and aqueducts.

“We” (not you and I, but people before us) did an incredible job of building those populations up through various activities, but I guess we have to explore how natural or sustainable those inflated numbers were then or are today. Because the numbers today, as bleak as they may seem, blow what they were completely out of the water when talking about the times you mentioned above.

 

[2lumpy]

Lump, I don’t think any of us in Utah would be happy if the deer and elk populations were today as they were when the Native Americans were burning prairie grasses and the European settlers were building irrigation ditches and aqueducts.

“We” (not you and I, but people before us) did an incredible job of building those populations up through various activities, but I guess we have to explore how natural or sustainable those inflated numbers were then or are today. Because the numbers today, as bleak as they may seem, blow what they were completely out of the water when talking about the times you mentioned above.

I’ll concede, you win. No hard feelings.

The kids tell me it was a slow bit for the cutthroats at Pyramid this weekend.

Have a great year Vanilla.

 

[elkassassin]

Lump, I don’t think any of us in Utah would be happy if the deer and elk populations were today as they were when the Native Americans were burning prairie grasses and the European settlers were building irrigation ditches and aqueducts.

“We” (not you and I, but people before us) did an incredible job of building those populations up through various activities, but I guess we have to explore how natural or sustainable those inflated numbers were then or are today. Because the numbers today, as bleak as they may seem, blow what they were completely out of the water when talking about the times you mentioned above.

Would That Go For DRAT Population Of Today As Well?

 

[Vanilla]

I’ll concede, you win. No hard feelings.

The kids tell me it was a slow bit for the cutthroats at Pyramid this weekend.

Have a great year Vanilla.

I’m not sure what I won, to be honest! It’s just a discussion. Lots of questions, not many answers. Unfortunately.

I hope some capable and qualified folks come up with some, and very soon.

 

[Vanilla]

Would That Go For DRAT Population Of Today As Well?

Yep! Even if it seems very counter-intuitive that we have exponentially more people and exponentially more deer and elk at the same time.

I’m not sure that helps us figure out “the why,” but yes, we have a lot more people in Utah than we did in the 1700-1800s.