The area is so close to home and the odds are as good as they are in better areas. I know good sheep are there. If I draw I can really put in some serious scouting, and I know folks that practically live for sheep hunting that are extremely familiar with the area and its sheep. And I have the max of our so- called Montana bonus points. mtmuley
Well, I put in for 270
- Thread starter mtmuley
- Start date
PleaseDear
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,451
That would be a fun hunt if ya pull that tag.
I did a unit close to yours.
I too have the max sheep points....Big-Deal...ha
Robb
I did a unit close to yours.
I too have the max sheep points....Big-Deal...ha
Robb
W
wmm
Guest
I drew the only NR 270 tag in 2006. If you draw the tag you should not allow yourself to start hunting until at least the 5th of November. None of the really mature rams show up there until the rut. I killed my sheep on November 10th and I was the last hunter to fill his tag that year. The district biologist said that all of the resident hunters fill their tags in the first 30 days of the hunt killing mostly sheep of 170 or less. I was within rifle range of 20+ class three rams on the day I took my sheep. If you are patient and can be diciplined enough to wait the best rams will show up. My ram was 9.5 years old with 16" bases. A unit 270 tag should be good for a B&C ram if you hunt late.
Good Luck.
Good Luck.
W
wmm
Guest
Posted the pictures in 2006. follow the link and enjoy
http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...w_thread&om=2389&forum=DCForumID8&archive=yes
http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...w_thread&om=2389&forum=DCForumID8&archive=yes
But to be truthful any sheep hunt would be alright with me.
dwalton
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,527
Cosmo,
You really need to ratchet it back a few notches. I don't remember anyone slamming your Dall hunt.
The fact of the matter is sheep hunting is what it is. Some are brutal tough, some hunts are rather easy. Please don't take the "Holier Than Thou" attitude.
WMM killed a beauty of a ram on HIS HUNT.
You really need to ratchet it back a few notches. I don't remember anyone slamming your Dall hunt.
The fact of the matter is sheep hunting is what it is. Some are brutal tough, some hunts are rather easy. Please don't take the "Holier Than Thou" attitude.
WMM killed a beauty of a ram on HIS HUNT.
Cozmo8
Active Member
- Messages
- 638
LAST EDITED ON May-07-09 AT 01:50PM (MST)[p]Dwalton. You are 100% correct in my book. I am glad you bit. The reason for my comments were directed at the comments of being "patient and disciplined enough". The implication to me is that the resident hunters were not disciplined and patient and they shot "170 rams or less". Who cares what the score is, go out have a great time and do it for your own reasons. Was it wrong for the resident hunters to shoot 160-170 rams in the first month of the season? Maybe WMM did not mean it that way but it came across that way to me. I would love to shoot a ram like WMM's.
Keith McCafferty had the 270 tag one year and wrote a great story about it talking about this exact argument.
No doubt its a personal choice you have to make when you get a tag. A lot of the locals choose to hunt back in a ways and hunt the entire season (early) because its a once in a lifetime thing, and you want to get the best experience possible. When you're used to driving by a bunch of rams on the side of the highway every day, you're going to want more out of the hunt than picking one out and backing the truck up to it.
Not putting down WMM's hunt, if you're just after total inches that's the way to do it. There is a reason why us locals choose not to though.
No doubt its a personal choice you have to make when you get a tag. A lot of the locals choose to hunt back in a ways and hunt the entire season (early) because its a once in a lifetime thing, and you want to get the best experience possible. When you're used to driving by a bunch of rams on the side of the highway every day, you're going to want more out of the hunt than picking one out and backing the truck up to it.
Not putting down WMM's hunt, if you're just after total inches that's the way to do it. There is a reason why us locals choose not to though.
W
wmm
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-12-09 AT 12:23PM (MST)[p]Gentlemen,
My comments about shooting a ram early in the season were in no way meant to offend or belittle any of my fellow hunter?s experiences. I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to hunt arguably the greatest trophy in the lower 48 states. My original post was meant to convey that it is difficult to force ones self to hold out for a mature ram of the quality that is available in unit 270. Assuming that the hunt would be conducted unguided (my hunt was guided) it is very important that the tag holder learn as much as possible about how to field judge and age rams.
My advice to hunt late in unit 270 is without a doubt very accurate IF you would like to see one of the most incredible gatherings of mature rams anywhere on the planet. To see them fight and exert dominance over each other is one of the highlights of my outdoor experiences. I watched the ram I ended up taking fight off 3 other big rams and subsequently breed a hot ewe. I chose the ram I took because he was (the best my guides and I could tell) the oldest and most dominate ram on the mountain. When comparing his horns to his competition it was easy to tell that he would not have the highest B&C score. Two of the rams he wiped would have scored higher. The younger rams were mature huge bodied rams but their horns were smooth and unbroomed but still had great mass. The ram I took was heavily broomed and his horns were gouged and chipped from a life of battles.
Unit 270 is heavily timbered and before the rut it is very difficult to locate and evaluate mature rams. The really big rams don't show up until the rut is in full swing. Yes, some of the sheep in 270 have been conditioned over time to the presence of humans (backpackers, trail rides, etc). That is all the more reason to hunt late hold out for the best the unit has to offer.
I was able to meet and correspond with a resident who had a tag the same year I did. He scouted hard and took an incredible sheep B&C with his bow. He did it early in the season and there is nothing wrong with that. He is an experienced hunter who took the time to learn how to judge and age rams (Duncan Gilchrest videos & books; I used them also) and that paid off for him. He even went as far as to take pictures of the ram he was hunting and had them evaluated by experienced sheep hunters and a taxidermist to confirm that the ram he was looking at was everything he thought it was. He was willing to wait until late in the season if he needed to, fortunately he did not have to wait.
I was also able to correspond with two other hunters who had tags in the Anaconda unit in 2006. They are both sheep guides in the US and Canada and they also chose to hunt November in order to take advantage of the rut. Both of them took incredible rams.
In 2008 I counseled a resident Montana hunter who ended up taking a lesser ram in 270 because even though I begged him to wait and hunt later he was unable to resist the temptation to shoot that great looking sheep that he saw in September. An average sheep in MT would be one if the top trophies in WY or ID. That is what makes MT so unique.
My advice to anyone who has a MT unit 270 sheep tag: If you want to see and compare the most mature rams that live in the unit. don't pull the trigger untill November. Don't worry, if you wait they will show up.
The quality of the hunt is all based on the experience not the score. If I was a MT resident I would have had the opportunity to scout and hunt on my own. I chose to be guided by two MT natives from Ennis, Larry Altimus and Bo Morgan. They are the best at what they do.
My comments about shooting a ram early in the season were in no way meant to offend or belittle any of my fellow hunter?s experiences. I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to hunt arguably the greatest trophy in the lower 48 states. My original post was meant to convey that it is difficult to force ones self to hold out for a mature ram of the quality that is available in unit 270. Assuming that the hunt would be conducted unguided (my hunt was guided) it is very important that the tag holder learn as much as possible about how to field judge and age rams.
My advice to hunt late in unit 270 is without a doubt very accurate IF you would like to see one of the most incredible gatherings of mature rams anywhere on the planet. To see them fight and exert dominance over each other is one of the highlights of my outdoor experiences. I watched the ram I ended up taking fight off 3 other big rams and subsequently breed a hot ewe. I chose the ram I took because he was (the best my guides and I could tell) the oldest and most dominate ram on the mountain. When comparing his horns to his competition it was easy to tell that he would not have the highest B&C score. Two of the rams he wiped would have scored higher. The younger rams were mature huge bodied rams but their horns were smooth and unbroomed but still had great mass. The ram I took was heavily broomed and his horns were gouged and chipped from a life of battles.
Unit 270 is heavily timbered and before the rut it is very difficult to locate and evaluate mature rams. The really big rams don't show up until the rut is in full swing. Yes, some of the sheep in 270 have been conditioned over time to the presence of humans (backpackers, trail rides, etc). That is all the more reason to hunt late hold out for the best the unit has to offer.
I was able to meet and correspond with a resident who had a tag the same year I did. He scouted hard and took an incredible sheep B&C with his bow. He did it early in the season and there is nothing wrong with that. He is an experienced hunter who took the time to learn how to judge and age rams (Duncan Gilchrest videos & books; I used them also) and that paid off for him. He even went as far as to take pictures of the ram he was hunting and had them evaluated by experienced sheep hunters and a taxidermist to confirm that the ram he was looking at was everything he thought it was. He was willing to wait until late in the season if he needed to, fortunately he did not have to wait.
I was also able to correspond with two other hunters who had tags in the Anaconda unit in 2006. They are both sheep guides in the US and Canada and they also chose to hunt November in order to take advantage of the rut. Both of them took incredible rams.
In 2008 I counseled a resident Montana hunter who ended up taking a lesser ram in 270 because even though I begged him to wait and hunt later he was unable to resist the temptation to shoot that great looking sheep that he saw in September. An average sheep in MT would be one if the top trophies in WY or ID. That is what makes MT so unique.
My advice to anyone who has a MT unit 270 sheep tag: If you want to see and compare the most mature rams that live in the unit. don't pull the trigger untill November. Don't worry, if you wait they will show up.
The quality of the hunt is all based on the experience not the score. If I was a MT resident I would have had the opportunity to scout and hunt on my own. I chose to be guided by two MT natives from Ennis, Larry Altimus and Bo Morgan. They are the best at what they do.
W
wmm
Guest
>What's more of a challenge a
>180 class ram in November
>when you can beat them
>over the head with a
>hammer or a 170 ram
>in the early season when
>they are spread out over
>their summer range? Personal
>preference.
A personal choice. For me it is a really old ram has survived through many winters.
>180 class ram in November
>when you can beat them
>over the head with a
>hammer or a 170 ram
>in the early season when
>they are spread out over
>their summer range? Personal
>preference.
A personal choice. For me it is a really old ram has survived through many winters.
I can guarantee that if I draw the tag it won't be wasted on a sub-par ram. Early or late season doesn't matter to me. I know the lifelong Bitterooters that practically live with the sheep in 270 most of the year. I know a half dozen folks that have taken rams in the 180-190 inch class. That's a big part of the reason I didn't switch areas to 680. I myself have lived in the Root most of my life, and having the unit 30 minutes away allows for intense scouting. All I need is the TAG! mtmuley
W
wmm
Guest
mtmuley,
Good luck in the draw.
Good luck in the draw.
E
eagle_eye
Guest
mtmuley,
Do you know anything about the size of the rams that have been harvested in 261? That's the unit I ended up putting in for. I saw so many sheep everyday in September that I couldn't resist putting in for a tag there. Plus, the draw odds are much better than the breaks, even though the breaks are closer for me.
Last year I was able to walk within 10 yards of a group of 15 rams as they stood in the middle of the road looking at me. This was in September. Took some great pics. The biggest in the group was probably 165-170. I'll definitely be using my bow if I'm lucky enough to draw.
Do you know anything about the size of the rams that have been harvested in 261? That's the unit I ended up putting in for. I saw so many sheep everyday in September that I couldn't resist putting in for a tag there. Plus, the draw odds are much better than the breaks, even though the breaks are closer for me.
Last year I was able to walk within 10 yards of a group of 15 rams as they stood in the middle of the road looking at me. This was in September. Took some great pics. The biggest in the group was probably 165-170. I'll definitely be using my bow if I'm lucky enough to draw.
eagle_eye, I don't personally know of any rams taken in 261. Your best bet is to contact the regional biologist. As you know, all rams must be plugged, so he can find out. We have a new guy here and I can't recall his name. Look on the FWP site. Good luck in the draw. Most of the interest in 261 these days is for deer. mtmuley
I had a buddy that drew 261 probably three years ago. He lives down there and knows the sheep well, and ended up killing a low 170's ram. I don't think its on par with some of the more popular units around it, but I see no reason why there couldn't be B&C rams in there.
E
eagle_eye
Guest
Thanks. I think I have an idea where the majority of the sheep are. I was just wondering if anyone knew of the size of the rams people have been pulling out of there.
I'll never draw the tag, but it's a lot of fun to dream.
I'll just say that if I draw the tag, I'll walk out of there with a 170 P&Y ram. That should put a smile on any hunter's face.
I'll never draw the tag, but it's a lot of fun to dream.
I'll just say that if I draw the tag, I'll walk out of there with a 170 P&Y ram. That should put a smile on any hunter's face.
RamDreamer
Active Member
- Messages
- 426
You're aware of the die-off going on in that unit, right?
RamDreamer
Active Member
- Messages
- 426
From: http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/oppForPubCommentSheep.html
Proposed 2010-2011 Hunting Seasons - Bighorn Sheep
Region 2
HD 270 ? close HD 270
Proposed 2010-2011 Hunting Seasons - Bighorn Sheep
Region 2
HD 270 ? close HD 270
RamDreamer
Active Member
- Messages
- 426
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-09 AT 07:15PM (MST)[p]
RamDreamer
Active Member
- Messages
- 426
Zigga,
Maybe you don't understand why 270 is being closed. It is due to a die-off resulting from bighorn contact with domestic sheep. The bighorns always come out on the losing end when such contact is made. Not enough hunters seem to be aware of the enormity of this problem.
Redistribution within Montana would be great. But if they are put near domestic sheep they will eventually succumb to the diseases passed to them by those nearby domestics. It's happened over and over and over.
Maybe you don't understand why 270 is being closed. It is due to a die-off resulting from bighorn contact with domestic sheep. The bighorns always come out on the losing end when such contact is made. Not enough hunters seem to be aware of the enormity of this problem.
Redistribution within Montana would be great. But if they are put near domestic sheep they will eventually succumb to the diseases passed to them by those nearby domestics. It's happened over and over and over.
>Zigga,
>
>Maybe you don't understand why 270
>is being closed. It
>is due to a die-off
>resulting from bighorn contact with
>domestic sheep. The bighorns
>always come out on the
>losing end when such contact
>is made. Not enough
>hunters seem to be aware
>of the enormity of this
>problem.
>
>Redistribution within Montana would be great.
> But if they are
>put near domestic sheep they
>will eventually succumb to the
>diseases passed to them by
>those nearby domestics. It's
>happened over and over and
>over.
What makes you think I don't understand? I'm well aware why bighorns are dieing. Bighorns raise hundreds of thousands of dollars. Where is that money going? Can't we get rid of the domestics with some of that money? We are losing sheep units anually and it's getting old. The retards in FnG need to figure it out instead of sitting on their hands. Please let me know what they've been doing about this besides relocating our sheep out of state.
>
>Maybe you don't understand why 270
>is being closed. It
>is due to a die-off
>resulting from bighorn contact with
>domestic sheep. The bighorns
>always come out on the
>losing end when such contact
>is made. Not enough
>hunters seem to be aware
>of the enormity of this
>problem.
>
>Redistribution within Montana would be great.
> But if they are
>put near domestic sheep they
>will eventually succumb to the
>diseases passed to them by
>those nearby domestics. It's
>happened over and over and
>over.
What makes you think I don't understand? I'm well aware why bighorns are dieing. Bighorns raise hundreds of thousands of dollars. Where is that money going? Can't we get rid of the domestics with some of that money? We are losing sheep units anually and it's getting old. The retards in FnG need to figure it out instead of sitting on their hands. Please let me know what they've been doing about this besides relocating our sheep out of state.
RamDreamer
Active Member
- Messages
- 426
So what makes you think I'm the enemy?
It appeared by your first post that you were simply ranting about the unit closing. As such, I was just trying to ensure you (and other readers) knew the root cause.
I am not attempting, nor will I, to explain what MTFWP is doing / not doing / thinking / etc.
Some of your emotion and apparent passion would be well spent in fighting for the sheep. I hope you might actively engage in the fight for them (if you are not already).
Merry Christmas to all.
It appeared by your first post that you were simply ranting about the unit closing. As such, I was just trying to ensure you (and other readers) knew the root cause.
I am not attempting, nor will I, to explain what MTFWP is doing / not doing / thinking / etc.
Some of your emotion and apparent passion would be well spent in fighting for the sheep. I hope you might actively engage in the fight for them (if you are not already).
Merry Christmas to all.
littlebighorn
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,337
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-09 AT 01:43PM (MST)[p]Zigga,
For what it is worth, while I am not a resident of MT I feel your pain. Nobody on this post ever wants to see sheep units close. We are all for having growing healthy herds!
I think what Ram Dreamer was trying to say is managing sheep is tricky. I know the sheep Utah bought from Montana last year came here due to an excess of sheep near a large population and complaining citizens wanted them gone. Utah had the resources and man power to take them immediately and so that is what happened...at least that is the story I heard.
Utah has been able to do things like that lately because of the huge financial support to Utah DWR given by local sportsman's organizations such as UFNAWS amd SFW. They literally finance those translocations and so we get them.
Perhaps if Montana had Sportsman's groups like that going to bat for your wildlife you would not be losing your sheep, but rather buying out sheep grazing rights and expanding herd units.
As I said, I feel your pain and for what it is worth, IMHO, Sportsman's groups may be your solution.
I honestly hope you can find a way to keep your sheep and expand your herds!
Merry Christmas
For what it is worth, while I am not a resident of MT I feel your pain. Nobody on this post ever wants to see sheep units close. We are all for having growing healthy herds!
I think what Ram Dreamer was trying to say is managing sheep is tricky. I know the sheep Utah bought from Montana last year came here due to an excess of sheep near a large population and complaining citizens wanted them gone. Utah had the resources and man power to take them immediately and so that is what happened...at least that is the story I heard.
Utah has been able to do things like that lately because of the huge financial support to Utah DWR given by local sportsman's organizations such as UFNAWS amd SFW. They literally finance those translocations and so we get them.
Perhaps if Montana had Sportsman's groups like that going to bat for your wildlife you would not be losing your sheep, but rather buying out sheep grazing rights and expanding herd units.
As I said, I feel your pain and for what it is worth, IMHO, Sportsman's groups may be your solution.
I honestly hope you can find a way to keep your sheep and expand your herds!
Merry Christmas
>So what makes you think I'm
>the enemy?
"Maybe you don't understand why 270 is being closed."
Not sure why you would say that but whatever.
The problem is mismanagement of the sheep units which comes down to FnG. They need to figure out where the risks are and fix it. North of Helena there is a herd of domestic goats and sheep and now no Bighorns in that unit. Across the Missouri from there the sheep herd is struggling according to my latest lamb count. One lamb for 22 ewes and that was in August, among other examples (380). Whether it's pneumonia or overpredation, the FnG is dropping the ball. Hunters provide money to fix the problems but things only get worse. Now those hunters will have to apply for already congested units. I donate more than I can afford and it looks like hunting groups is our only chance at doing the right thing. Montana FnG is a joke.
>the enemy?
"Maybe you don't understand why 270 is being closed."
Not sure why you would say that but whatever.
The problem is mismanagement of the sheep units which comes down to FnG. They need to figure out where the risks are and fix it. North of Helena there is a herd of domestic goats and sheep and now no Bighorns in that unit. Across the Missouri from there the sheep herd is struggling according to my latest lamb count. One lamb for 22 ewes and that was in August, among other examples (380). Whether it's pneumonia or overpredation, the FnG is dropping the ball. Hunters provide money to fix the problems but things only get worse. Now those hunters will have to apply for already congested units. I donate more than I can afford and it looks like hunting groups is our only chance at doing the right thing. Montana FnG is a joke.
littlebighorn
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,337
I think we all get it! Sheep numbers are down and we don't like it.
And yes, the Cattlemen have run the public land in the west for centuries. But until the Sportsmen of Montana and other states storm the steps of the Capital like Don Peay and SFW did in Utah and demand a change, nothing good will happen.
At least that was our experience here in Utah.
Before SFW inserted themselves, the Cattlemen ran the Big Game board and pretty much the Fish and Game Department in Utah. But because of the overwhelming support of thousands of Sportsmen, things have changed here dramatically in favor of wildlife.
So that is my two bits.
We can complain all we want, but until a large group takes action, things will continue as they are, or probably get worse.
And yes, the Cattlemen have run the public land in the west for centuries. But until the Sportsmen of Montana and other states storm the steps of the Capital like Don Peay and SFW did in Utah and demand a change, nothing good will happen.
At least that was our experience here in Utah.
Before SFW inserted themselves, the Cattlemen ran the Big Game board and pretty much the Fish and Game Department in Utah. But because of the overwhelming support of thousands of Sportsmen, things have changed here dramatically in favor of wildlife.
So that is my two bits.
We can complain all we want, but until a large group takes action, things will continue as they are, or probably get worse.
Looks like there's a chance they could've got lucky this time?
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/article_58d9f380-eebc-11de-b4ee-001cc4c002e0.html
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/article_58d9f380-eebc-11de-b4ee-001cc4c002e0.html
treedagain
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,550
thats a great ram....congrads
W
wmm
Guest
Please keep us updated on the status of that herd.
Thanks
WMM
Thanks
WMM
I'm looking forward to the FWP comment meeting on Jan. 20th. I'll be able to talk personally with our regional biologist (who put in a ton of work during this unfortunate outbreak) to get a real idea of what is going to happen as far as a season etc. Looks like my sheep draw area just changed though. I'll share any info I find out. mtmuley
