What are they thinking!?

[nonet]

So I just got done looking at the deer hunt recomendations. What in the hell is Game an Fish thinking when it comes to the strip? They had what most people have called the best year in killing GIANT bucks EVER. Yet they are bumping up rifle tags in both A and B. Now in their defence they took tags away from the bowhunters for a net loss of 5 tags in 13a but a net gain of 5 in 13b.. This is total BS.....

Why after what happened last year would you raise rifle tags? That is more pressure on the older bucks that are left, that were hammered last year. I know they will say its to keep buck to doe ratios blah blah blah. they need to kill some bucks then let the bowhunters do it. They will shoot 150 170 type deer. Rifle hunters, for the most part, won't. They want giants. I've had both archery and rifle tags since 2008. With a rifle it was 200 or bust, luckily I had success. With a bow, my standards were lower and I ate a tag cause I got greedy. So I know the mindset of both hunts up there...

With the increase in rifle tags they will now start doing to strip deer as they have done with antelope. No big bucks!!!

What sayeth you all???? Obviously I think they are making a HUGE mistake...

 

[maddglasser]

Munster? Colby? Quessa Fresca? It is all cheese with that whine!

Sounds like the strip is getting what the rest of the state always gets! Welcome to our world!

 

[WhiskeyMan]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-11 AT 10:44PM (MST)[p]Can't comment on archery versus rifle. I can, however, offer the following.

13A had a record mature buck harvest. Like never before. 13B actually had a weak year comparatively. Lots of discussion about 13A being shot out for mature bucks. 13B has more remaining than after an average year...according to many.

Soooo......reducing 13A tags and a slight increase in 13B actually makes sense for this year.

Nooooowwww..... to answer you true concerns. The WOW harvest in 2010 is due to trail cam usage and gang hunting and commercialization of big muleys. No question. It has nothing to do with tag numbers or AZGFD changed management philosophies. Cowardice and gutlessness in hunting big muleys is what needs to be outlawed. Tag numbers can remain the same long as everyone keeps with the program and actually hunts and works for a big buck. Deer numbers have substantially increased on the Strip over the last 15 years. But.......yellow hunters are on the increase in a logarithmic fashion.

Get back to big buck hunting basics on the Strip or get lost you guides and bounty-hunters........or your cash cow will be gone soon. Same as Hatch's Pauns disappeared 15 years ago.........and has never returned. Hear me now.

 

[AZWALKER]

Wait wait wait. So you're saying guides and trailcams are yellow and cowardice???

"Deer numbers have substantially increased on the Strip over the last 15 years."

Funny, trailcams have only been around that long. Well large scale use anyway. And guides have always been in there. So if deer nembers have increased, what you're saying doesn't make sense.

The srip just had its best year ever and someone will still find something to ##### about. WOW is right!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[ElmerFudd]

Tag #'s are still really restrictive in the quota, and the biologists have better information and knowledge than us amatures. I really can't see a net plus of 5 tags affecting much on an area the size of the 13B.

As far as the bow/rifle split...That's partially based upon demand, one of the factotrs public managers have to use when deciding how to distribute public resources. Seems like the archers do as well harvesting big bucks as rifle hunters there. A tag there is a big harvested. I'm thinking the trail cams and mega eyes scouting would help the early hunt more because the deer are more tied to water in warmer drier weather.

Trust them...they have done well. Recent harvest shows that.

 

[fullcurl74]

Amazing. These two units are arguably the most sought after big muley tags in the country (with the Henries) and had one of the most amazing big buck harvests in recent history, and someone comes on here to criticize their management.

 

[WhiskeyMan]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-11 AT 09:57PM (MST)[p]""Wait wait wait. So you're saying guides and trailcams are yellow and cowardice???

"Deer numbers have substantially increased on the Strip over the last 15 years."

Funny, trailcams have only been around that long. Well large scale use anyway. And guides have always been in there. So if deer nembers have increased, what you're saying doesn't make sense.

The srip just had its best year ever and someone will still find something to ##### about. WOW is right!""



""Amazing. These two units are arguably the most sought after big muley tags in the country (with the Henries) and had one of the most amazing big buck harvests in recent history, and someone comes on here to criticize their management.""




The wow harvest in 13A in 2010 is solely due to the use of trailcams and gang-hunting by outfitters and hunters. This is well documented and easily observable to anyone that has a brain. Overall deer numbers and buck age-class are due to terrific management. But this slaughter is due to typical human destructiveness and laziness and lack of integrity. Same human generated crap that ruins most everything in our society. This is why the use of these sorry-ass tactics is increasing at an alarming rate......cuz they work! This over-harvest would not have happened without selfish guides and lousy hunters, period. Just ask them. Deer numbers have increased on the Strip.....but so has the laziness and selfishness of guides and hunters. Trailcams have only been in extensive use the last 5 years.

One of the things that sickens me the most is the guides that post trail cam pics on their website just to act like they are dialed in and have it goin' on and are everyone's hero. Sick sheet. Instant gratification and booking next year's hunters are all that matters to these pukes.

Even Hatch is a hypocrite and sees that the end is near for good numbers of big bucks on the Strip. Just ask him. He ran the Pauns into the ground fairly quickly with his commercialization of it. I remember it in the mid-1990's like it was yesterday with his vids and articles and greed. Where is he gonna go this time to make his living??? The Kaibab is shot also. He seems concerned these days. Just ask him. The Strip and The Henry's are the last frontiers.......and are getting pounded by ALL means possible and will not be the same if this continues. Look at the Pauns, the Greys, and Eagle County. Just how many examples of the same do ya need?? Just how many times does this have to be repeated in the west?

Big muleys have been loved to death. This Strip stuff is the final nail in the coffin for them there.

On a positive note......I understand that AZGFD is considering introducing legislation to outlaw the use of trailcams. If successful, then we only have to contend with gang-hunting.

 

[WhiskeyMan]

I took this photo in 13A in 2009. This is 50 miles from the pavement where this country used to be almost pristine and untouched and wild 15 years ago. Note the destroyed tree and permanent, unsightly man-made tree stand. Also note the trail cam post put there by a lazy, yella puke. Which do ya think came first......the stand or the trailcam?


http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos/5497img_0197_1.jpg

 

[nonet]

So sorry I brought it up. After readin some of the posts I can see that conservative management is not popular... In fact I have changed my tune.... I would like to see more tags so more deer can be killed like they do in the desert. I totaly will trust game and fish as they have done an excellent job managing deer, antelope, and even elk in some areas... At least they will make some money! Man I need some more trailcams so I can get another giant strip buck before they are gone...

Have a great upcoming fall and kill em all!!!!

 

[Zim]

That stand looks like an accident waiting to happen. Good thing it's a whopping 8' off the ground!

What is this guy thinkin?

 

[huntinnut]

I didnt know g&f wanted to outlaw trailcams. I thought they Liked them being that I found at least 5 of azgfd's own trail cams on my 2010 13a Hunt. And those of you that think trail cams are the only reason for such an amazing 2010 strip hunt are Fools. Lots of reasons came together for such an awesome harvest and trail cams are only a small portion of that. Technology is here to stay so Get used to it or grumble about it while you sit behind your 15's, or precisely measure distance with your laser rangefinders, or fling arrows with your 330+ fps bows with 7 pins, or.....

 

[WhiskeyMan]

> I didnt know g&f
>wanted to outlaw trailcams. I
>thought they Liked them being
>that I found at least
>5 of azgfd's own trail
>cams on my 2010 13a
>Hunt. And those of you
>that think trail cams are
>the only reason for such
>an amazing 2010 strip hunt
>are Fools. Lots of reasons
>came together for such an
>awesome harvest and trail cams
>are only a small portion
>of that. Technology is here
>to stay so Get used
>to it or grumble about
>it while you sit behind
>your 15's, or precisely measure
>distance with your laser rangefinders,
>or fling arrows with your
>330+ fps bows with 7
>pins, or.....


The use of trailcams has nothing to do with technology......which is the same justification you pathetic trailcam users post time and again. Knock it off. I have to actually hike and climb to use my 15's effectively.

Trailcams are a substitute for using game knowledge and physical conditioning and time away from the couch and big-screen in order to locate the living room of a big animal. Trailcams are used all in the name of laziness and $$$ by City folk who cut corners every chance they get in life.

Trailcams on water holes in the arid Arizona country is the most chickensheet way of scouting on this planet. I'm glad a movement is in place to keep you fawkers on your couch full time.

 

[azbucksnbulls]

You cant hate the management of the deer in 13a or b, the consistence of the quality is just too good to do so. But i hear the term "Gang Hunting" tossed around alot, I've always interpreted that as like some thing that's the same or similar to party hunting? or filling your tag as well as someone elses tag on the same hunt?

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-11 AT 11:20PM (MST)[p]Well to each his own. You can have all the opinions you want but it won't change a thing. People are going to use every means at thier disposal to shoot a big buck. I'm not against guides at all. I do understand your point about gang guiding. BTW gang guiding isn't possible without using radios, which is unlawful to use to take game. Trailcams are a different story. I have used them and it didn't put a huge buck on the wall. For those of us do-it-yourselfers that have full time jobs, do live in cities, have families and are hunting country far from home and there are 2 deer per square mile, its a great tool.

"Trailcams are a substitute for using game knowledge and physical conditioning and time away from the couch and big-screen in order to locate the living room of a big animal. Trailcams are used all in the name of laziness and $$$ by City folk who cut corners every chance they get in life."

I take great offense to that little tidbit right there pard. I work my ars off 6 days a week, feed 6 kids, put my fiance through school, I hunt my butt off when I'm out there and I spent 4 great years serving my country in the Marine Corps... and I use f'ing trail cameras. Anytime you want to put the boots on and go for a hike buddy, I'll show you what the back of my shirt looks like. Idiot!



"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[WhiskeyMan]

""I take great offense to that little tidbit right there pard. I work my ars off 6 days a week, feed 6 kids, put my fiance through school, I hunt my butt off when I'm out there and I spent 4 great years serving my country in the Marine Corps... and I use f'ing trail cameras. Anytime you want to put the boots on and go for a hike buddy, I'll show you what the back of my shirt looks like. Idiot!""



Why do you assume that my life and hunting life has been a bed of roses?? BS on your stuff, AZCRAWLER. You ain't the only pressured one in our society, dude.

Successful trophy hunting ain't about others opinions of you. It's aaaaallll about only yours..........

Trailcams....by definition....are for yella cowards who have no clue or aptitude for real true hunting. Post your defensiveness here, Stud.......but facts are facts.

 

[AZWALKER]

I love my life, its not a complaint at all. The point is that not everyone that uses trailcams fits your in narrow view of life. You are assuming that because a guy throws a cam up that he's trying to do it the easy way, when in fact, many of us truly don't have the time to do the way we would like to do it. Its so hard to draw here anymore that a guy has to take full advantage of the time he does have to gain a little edge and hopefully be sucessful. I think your frustration is probably more directed at certain individuals who take advantage of the situation for there own personal gain. I can understand that point, can't say I agree but I see your side.

"Trailcams....by definition....are for yella cowards who have no clue or aptitude for real true hunting. Post your defensiveness here, Stud.......but facts are facts."

1+1=2... thats a fact. Its the year 2011... thats a fact. Your statement above... OPINION. However narrow and offensive, you have the right to have it. When and if they outlaw trailcams, I will be against them. As of now, I don't have an issue with them. In the longrun, I don't give a rip what you think of me. I have worked hard for the success I've had in the field. Funny thing is, I've only used a trailcam once and I didn't fill my tag because of it. But i'm not going to sit here and listen to somebody call me yellow or a coward because I did. You are really only making yourself sound narrow minded and ignorant. Sorry STUD be facts is facts!




"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[HunterX]

>LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-11
>AT 11:20?PM (MST)
>
BTW gang guiding
>isn't possible without using radios,
>which is unlawful to use
>to take game.

Correct me if I'm wrong but last time I checked it was perfectly legal to use radios while hunting in AZ.

 

[AZWALKER]

I'm gonna add one last thing. I always try and follow a certain rule when posting here. Would I say this if the person was standing in front of me. I think you might consider applying the same rule. I can promise you would probably not choose the words you've chosen here if you and I and others were face to face.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[AZWALKER]

Sorry I might be confusing AZ rukes with Wyo rules. My bad.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[HunterX]

I don't always understand why the AZGF do the things they do but there's no denying when it come to quality they've done a pretty good job on the Strip so far.

 

[sremim]

I think G&F will ruin the strip eventually. They are more concerned with
quantity than quality. It's been happening all over the state. It's just a matter
of time before it comes to the strip.

Whiskeyman, all you are is a computer tough guy. The crap you say is just
that, crap. I don't use trail cams and never will, but it doesn't mean those who
do are less of a hunter. Get off your high horse and get over yourself.

 

[mesquitehunter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]WhiskeyMan reminds me of an angry drunk sitting at the end of the bar mad as hell at the world. and his handle goes hand in hand with that thought. I wonder if he's always angry or just when he's nursing from the whiskey bottle?























Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]I love these armchair biologists who think they have any clue what it takes to run an entire unit for multiple species. They go on a hunt don't shoot let alone see any big bucks and its g and f's fault. Oh and those guys that use trailcams, its their fault too.

And they worry about a unit they may have hunted once and will never have a chance at drawing again. The complain, not because they truly care but because it something to complain about.




"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[mesquitehunter]

Honestly this dude thinks very highly of his own opinion.
He also reminds me of the cartoon character "Yosemite Sam" in some ways.
I wonder if he's related to Twodogs here on MM? They both seem to share the same anger and hate with the use of modern hunting technology.


























Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest

 

[TAGATTRACTER]

Twodogs and Whiskeyman ARE one and the same.

While I agree with Whiskeydog about trail cams, my way of dealing with that is to not use them. They are legal now, and I would never chastize people following the law. He will get nowhere coming on this site calling people names and demanding that everything be done his way. Geeeze.

 

[HunterX]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 01:13PM (MST)[p]Back to the topic would an extra 5 tags in 13A and 10 in 13B really cause a noticeable impact on the bucks on the strip? Either way I can't see an extra 5 tags in A and 10 in B effecting the big buck population. If a guy feels this is going to make an impact he should go up and kill as many coyotes and a lion that should make up for the 15 extra tags and then some.

 

[BuzzH]

AZWALKER,

While I'll agree that message may have been delivered a little rough...only an idiot would believe that trail cams give you no advantage.

I can flat out tell you, for a fact, that MANY big bucks are killed each because of trail cams. I talked with Ryan Hatch a couple years ago in Kanab, he was pointing out bucks that, "died because of trail cams"...

Pretty strong statement coming from a guy that knows the strip as well as anybody alive.

 

[AZWALKER]

I agree hunterx. They usually add or subtract by 50 tags in other units . 5 or 10 shows me that they actually have a pretty good handle on the situation. That could actually be considered micro management. I just wish they would treat the rest of the state with that same delicate touch.

Just to stir the pot some, I wonder if certain individuals would complain about yote hunters using electronic calls up there or cat hunters using hounds or trailcams on water holes to locate cats. I'd bet my life they'd never say a word!


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[BuzzH]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 03:06PM (MST)[p]AZWALKER,

Where do you draw the line?

I mean really, high end optics, quads, flat shooting rifles, range finders, google-earth, etc. etc. etc. isnt enough of an advantage?

We now have to resort to putting trail cams up at every waterhole to find the biggest buck?

Really?

Sad what "hunting" has become. The guy with the most gadgets wins...at any price, and to hell with the sport, show me the antlers!

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]Buzz you make very good points and I'm not arguing the big picture. I do get what you're saying and I respect it. My problem is with guys like whiskeyman who basically say, do it the way I do it or you're wrong. I can see where trailcams on every water hole on the strip could be considered by some to be cutting corners or an unfair advantage. But, if you're down in the sonoran desert and you're using them to just find deer, not find a huge buck, I mean just find any deer its a different story. If I'm looking at tens of thousands of acres of desert and a few hundred deer at that huge area, I'm saving myself hundreds of hours that could be spent shooting my bow or my rifle, working on my truck, taking the kids shooting ect... When I get out to actually hunt, I still have to glass huge areas to find the deer, then try and put a stalk on in the flats. Have you ever hunted desert flats? If you have you'll know its tough! I think they have a place and like any other gadget, they shouldn't be abused. Just my take on it.

Mind you, this is coming from someone that hunts sonoran desert muleys exclusively. Little different ball game down here. When I lived in Wyoming for those 2 years, I couldn't have told you where my trailcam was even packed. No need for it.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[ruthunter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 04:38PM (MST)[p]Interesting..wonder why schevpront hasn't chimed in. Trail cam's dont kill an animal for you and they dont guarantee you a kill so i have no problem with them. I personally use them and am not afraid to say that. With the gas prices climbing i see no problem in guys using them to scout.

 

[BuzzH]

AZWALKER,

I just think a line has got to be drawn somewhere with technology.

I wonder if there would be more or less desert bucks alive today if not for trail cams?

Just sayin'...

And yes, I have hunted AZ just about every year for the last ten years for javelina, elk, and coues.

 

[ruthunter]

>AZWALKER,
>
>I just think a line has
>got to be drawn somewhere
>with technology.
>
>I wonder if there would be
>more or less desert bucks
>alive today if not for
>trail cams?
>
>Just sayin'...
>
>And yes, I have hunted AZ
>just about every year for
>the last ten years for
>javelina, elk, and coues.
I think all these high power turretted scopes with all these video's showing how easy a long shot is these days has more impact than trail cam's..just my .02

 

[fin little]

Maybe its time to level the playing field back in the deers favor before our lifestyle is history. Why does every short cut have to be outlawed before people will finally do the decent thing? The more effective hunters are the more the opportunity disappears.

 

[BuzzH]

ruthunter,

I disagree with you about trail cams and how they impact deer.

Once a buck is found, the hunting part is over...just down to the killin' at that point.

 

[ruthunter]

>ruthunter,
>
>I disagree with you about trail
>cams and how they impact
>deer.
>
>Once a buck is found, the
>hunting part is over...just down
>to the killin' at that
>point.

I know many guys who have had big bucks on cams and went back during the season and were unable to kill yet find that buck.

 

[BuzzH]

That probably explains why they "need" a trail cam in the first place...

If they spent as much time learning about deer and their habits, instead of looking at flash cards, they wouldnt have that problem.

 

[AZWALKER]

I completely disagree that once a buck is found the hunting part is over. I had a true mainframe 200" buck 600 yds away in jan and couldn't get any closer than 200 yds. I'm still hunting that buck in my head. God willing I find him again.

Sure there might be a few more deer in the desert without trailcams... And radios and binos and scopes and rangefinders and gps and google earth and guides and 7mm's and quads and toyhaulers and... Did I forget somthing...? Oh and saltlicks and ground blinds and 7 pin sights and scentlock and scentkiller and doublers and cover scents and roads and drinkers and maps and cow tanks... get my point?

Take your pick! There are guys that use all of the above and still blank 5 out of 10 hunts. And there are guys that use a few off that list and tag out every year. And there are guys that use 90 percent of that list and complain about someone using something they disagree with.



"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[ruthunter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 06:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 06:19?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 06:18?PM (MST)

+1 azwalker.."My point exactly..just because you have a pic doesnt mean the hunting part is over."

 

[maddglasser]

I have lots and lots of great bucks on camera here. Have we killed them?...NOPE!! Guess I need to learn the species a little better...hell maybe learn the desert a little better!

Trail cams allow hunters, responsible hunters, to harvest the most mature animal available. Isn't that the point? Or do you guy's want us to hunt and kill young animals?

I have yet to see a large, mature buck bedding down on a waterhole during seeing light! Aint gonna happen brutha! It rules out area more than it puts targets on animals! I want to get a cam that hypnotizes the buck into thinking my scent is safe! That would be "YELLA"!

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 09:27PM (MST)[p]I wish they all had blue dots hovering 15 feet in the air above their heads... like on the video games. That would be cool!

Travis, Travis, Travis... Yella... always taking the easy way out like those city folk. You don't know what the heck you're doing out there!!! Get your butt outside, cut down that sapling in the yard, kill and gut your dog and use its sinew and the sapling to build a bow. Now, go up towards Page and buy yourself fifteen to twenty of those arrowheads they have for $.50 a piece at the gas station. Build you some arrows and hunt like a MAN! You can use the feathers off you kids parakeet for fletchings. Don't forget the loin cloth. Oh and don't take any videos, I don't want to see you in a loin cloth! Oh and don't drive your truck to MM 9 this time.. you gotta walk! Chickensheet!

Donnie

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[maddglasser]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 09:59PM (MST)[p]on my way Donnie!!!! On my way! I just wish I didn't have to learn these danged ole' deer! I want to take the easy way out! It should be all 'bout the magazines and the puter to find deer, not the waskily yella trail cams that those flash card hunters use!!

 

[WhiskeyMan]

Same ol defense on here from some of you. Discredit the poster cuz you can't win the argument by debating facts. That's yella, too.

Guys, the trailcam issue isn't about an increase in technology. A fancy riflescope, or great optics, or range finder, or high-dollar comfortable boots are technological advances that aid you WHEN YOU ARE IN THE FIELD. At least you have to be there to gain benefits from these things. Can't do that from your bed.

The hardest part, by far, in killing a big animal is locating one. Once you find his living room........whacking him is much easier in comparison. In the past, you had to hike and scout and glass and read sign and spend time in the field building your knowledge of the habits and behaviors of these older, hard-to-find animals in order to locate one. This takes hours, days, and maybe years in the field to find one. This is the essence of trophy hunting. It's hard work mentally and physically. That's why success is so rewarding. Trailcams are nothing more than a substitute for these things.......all in the name of laziness and incompetence. You can set one up on a tank in the Arizona desert environment (cuz you know they need a drink to survive) and find one while sitting on your couch drinking beer and watching football. Trailcams are used in the name of laziness and hunting incompetence. You can't compare trailcams to a rangefinder as 'new technology'. The purposes of their uses are entirely different. Cams are a substitute for actually scouting and hunting.....while a range finder is a shooting aid used in the field after you have located a trophy animal by conventional means (hopefully).

I'm sooooo glad to see a movement is afoot to ban trailcams.

 

[maddglasser]

yeah Jack Daniels, I'm headin up round the corner to that there courthouse to make sure there's one them ban thingies on all motor vehicles that way we only use a horse and buggy to head up in them hills!

I'm glad to see there was a movement to teach people to read!

Jackie Whiskey...You don't seem like gov't guy, why would you want to give them more?

 

[sremim]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-11 AT 10:40PM (MST)[p]Soooo it's ok to use an aid to make a better shot but not help see
what animals are out there? Yea, that makes sense........



AZWALKER...check your pm

 

[maddglasser]

well heck yeah!!! Shootin deer don't make them dead, them danged ole yella trail cams kill more deer than lions, guns, poachers and coyotes combined ever thought of!

 

[desertbucks]

Its bad enough we as hunters have to fight anti hunting groups etc but to have hunters who want to ban trail camera's and take it to a higher authority is ridiculous. All that leads to is more banning of everything else we do as hunters that is legal. Trail camera's do not gaurantee success at all, if they did I would have some nice trophys hanging on my wall. I have used trail camera's for the last five years and I am not ashamed of it one bit. I have never bagged a animal that I have had on camera its just not that easy people.

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-11 AT 08:30AM (MST)[p]Whiskeyman, I'm not going to change your mind about trailcams and you aren't going to change mine. Like I said before, I've only used one once. I do understand your reasoning and I completely disagree that trailcams have any more of an impact than any other technology. I would be willing to bet that radios aid in the taking of trophy deer more than a trailcam does. If we were talking eastern Whitetails, it would be a completely different story. These big muleys are way too cagey and wander way too much and too far for someone to truly nail down a solid pattern.

It might be a different story on the strip, I don't know. I don't apply for the srtip and probably never will, I like to hunt too much to try and draw a tag there. I'll take my dingy, dirty desert and hunt every year with a bow and a rifle. (Wish it was only a bow though. That would mean I killed a giant every Jan during the rut.)

Honestly, Whiskyman, I'm sure your a great guy and a good hunter and I really do appriciate your concerns about trailcams. I would actually side with your view of how hunting should be 9 times out of 10. But I have to disagree with you on this one point. Like I've said, I only used my trailcam once but I will use it again I'm sure. I don't own a quad, I only use a radio in case of emergency, I only use my rangefinder on bow hunts and 10x42's and a 3x9 power scope are my only optics. BUT THATS HOW I CHOOSE TO DO IT, I will never presume to tell anyone they are less of a hunter if they do use more gadgets than me!

[EDIT] Truth be told, I indirectly kill more deer by not hunting coyotes and cats as much as I should than I could ever do by hunting with every gadget on the planet... I feel a little guilty now.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[AZWALKER]

No sremim... you check yours...lol

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[BuzzH]

The whole discussion is about how the use of trail cams effects some lazy hunters ability to scout...typical ME ME ME thats a chronic problem within the hunting community.

Havent heard much about how trail cam use impacts the resource, or how seasons, tag numbers, etc. are going to be impacted by their use.

Sad.

There is little question that trail cam use will be restricted, Montana already severely limits their use.

If we dont see all out bans on them, I can assure you there will be regulations on when they can be used. I'm all in favor of allowing them to be used in February, March, and half of April.

If hunters are too ignorant to regulate themselves, you will get no sympathy or support from me when all your trail cams do is collect dust in your garage.

The animals and resource should always come first...wayyyy before your gadgets.

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-11 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-11 AT 09:03?AM (MST)

Buzz, if you don't kill one cat per year and 10 coyotes per year here in Arizona, you are doing more damage and effecting the resource more than 50 hunters with 10 trailcameras each.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[HunterX]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-11 AT 09:26AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-11 AT 09:25?AM (MST)

It's crazy how a topic about AZGF giving out more tags on the Strip some how turns into a topic about TCs. I will say this TCs have definitely changed the game on the Strip. No the use of a TC doesn't guarantee a hunter will kill a buck they got a pic of but it sure helps a hunter know where to start. Take the two giant bucks Sampson and Houdini for example. Without the use of trail cams one could argue that these two bucks would have never even been seen by the Muley Crazy crew let alone killed by them. Knowing where to look and hunt is a huge advantage especially in an area like the Strip. You can't deny that the use of trail cams on the strip has lead to some big old giant bucks being killed.

 

[creed]

I use trailcams simply because I like looking at pics of big deer. In all of the years of using one we have taken one buck that we caught on film and we weren't hunting him. It just worked out that way. I would have been hunting the same area regardless of how many/few deer we caught on camera. I have been hunting it for nearly 40 years and know it well.

Besides, they give me an excuse to get out and do something in the outdoors in the off season.

 

[AZWALKER]

Would you rather have seen those two bucks die of old age or been killed by a lion? Or killed them yourself? Are you mad that they were killed or mad at who killed them? If you knew those bucks were there but you HAD to use 1 trailcam to gaurantee taking them would you have done it? Don't answer till you think it thru... Honestly!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[HunterX]

I think you took my post the wrong way. I'm not mad, jealous or have any ill fillings about these bucks being killed. I was just pointing out that even though the use of TCs doesn't guarantee a hunter will kill a buck it sure can help. I mentioned these two bucks because they are 2 perfect examples of how trails cams can help a hunter get a deer. Nothing less nothing more.

 

[AZWALKER]

Oh my bad then.

Sorry I guess I mistook what you were saying.




"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[BuzzH]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-11 AT 01:56PM (MST)[p]AZWALKER,

I dont see an old mature buck dying of old age as a waste, I also dont see cats killing deer as a waste either.

Its a mismanaged unit/state that doesnt allow for reasonable predation and bucks/does dying of old age.

If every buck is being killed by a hunter...we're failing, and we're failing in a big way. We are NOT providing everything a deer needs to survive from birth to a natural death.

The mentality shown by most hunters these days makes me sick. "If it aint hangin on my wall its a waste..."

If I wanted a completely controlled environment where every deer is named and killed by ONLY hunters at its optimum age...I'd go shoot one on a fuggin' game farm.

If a deer/elk/antelope/sheep/goat/moose herd is managed correctly there is absolutely nothing wrong with some dying of old age and nothing wrong with the herd experiencing reasonable predation.

To me, thats the way it SHOULD be.

 

[need4x4]

I can see it now.

Train cam fee or license fee for trail cam use. It will be a gold mine.

Sanctioned trail cam posts and trail cam free areas.

Just get the government into it as a money maker and they will be all over.

Nice.

How about no trail cams within 200 yards of water source.

 

[mesquitehunter]

I think hunters who shoot at game more than 300 yrds is unethical. Do I think high power scopes and super fast, flat shooting rifles should be banned? Nope!!!

I think hunters who shoot at big game more than 75 yards with a bow is unethical. Do I think super fast, flat shooting bow's should be illeagle? Nope!!!!

I'm sure the two things I've mentioned have resulted in some rather large trophy animals being killed where the hunter was unable to get any closer or maybe he was just being lazy.

Besides there is no empirical data saying TC kill more deer. It's more of an emotional feeling than anything else.


















Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest

 

[BuzzH]

mesquitehunter,

I agree...and thanks to our technology we're already seeing reduced opportunities, less permits, shorter seasons, etc.

Been hearing some things about permit only for ALL archery deer in Arizona.

Many states have shortened seasons of all types, reduced quotas, etc. etc. etc.

Something has to give...and frankly, I'd rather it be technology, instead of opportunity and time in the field.

The choice is largely ours how we proceed from here, but things arent going to stay the same, and a large part of why it wont is 100% technology related.

 

[mesquitehunter]

BuzzH- correct me if I'm wrong but a portion of all hunting and fishing gear sold goes back into conservationism for all our wildlife and habitat needs. I thought I heard that sometime back.

With that being said I would hate to bite the hand that feeds me.

One form of modern technology I'm thrilled that is banned and thats Cross country vehicle travel while hunting. I still see people doing every hunting season and it burns my ars!!




























Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest

 

[BuzzH]

Sure, Dingell/Johnson and Pittman/Robertson funds are excise taxes on fishing and hunting gear. A portion is given to each state via a system that IMO, is kind of complicated. No question an important part of funding for game/fish management.

However, the bulk of any G&F budget comes from license sales.

If technology gets to the point, which it has in many places, that you're reducing opportunity and shortening seasons because of it, you're losing ground.

Thats happening, nationally the number of hunters we're recruiting into the sport is declining. Why? Many reasons, access to open hunting lands topping the list. Another is very restrictive or limited opportunities. Pretty tough to get people involved when they only draw a tag once every 10 years.

The fewer hunters you have the less amount of gear you're selling and the less tags the G&F is selling meaning less money for game management.

I'm in the camp of getting more people involved in the sport, increase opportunity, and increase access. If that means taking away some technology to do it...so be it.

Its more important to me to spend time in the field, recruit young hunters, and RETAIN the hunters we have than it is to make sure I can use a trail cam to find a big buck to hang on my wall.

Just one question...do you think the AZG&F could issue more tags, on say the strip, if you couldnt use trail cams, binoculars, and could only use open sights on your rifle?

 

[WhiskeyMan]

""Besides there is no empirical data saying TC kill more deer. It's more of an emotional feeling than anything else.""


Several of you are saying this. If trailcams aren't instrumental in harvesting more animals......why are soooo many being manufactured and purchased? Why are we even having this conversation with your incredible defensiveness then? Denial ain't just a river in Africa.

Why do you guys think that the vast majority of the guides on the Strip use cams, then?? Not to mention some DIY hunters. No kidding. Some of these outfitters hire guys just to make the rounds and download the pics. Check the websites of Vaquero, Hatch, Brec Bundy, Clay Bundy and look for your selves. Hatch used another guide's trailcam photo to guide to the Gov's tag last year. He told me this to my face.

 

[mesquitehunter]

To answer your question I have know idea.

One thing for sure there is no two paragraph solution to the problem. What may be good in one place may not be good in another.

I hunt deer in Region 4 and to this day we've never killed a single deer that we have on cams. The deer in region 4 are very scattered and few between. If there were any deer killed by other hunters due to discovering from a TC the percentage is low. So if we were to have restrictions maybe it should be unit or area specific. It can't be one size fits all IMHO.

Whats happening on the strip has no affect on me or my fellow desert rats because we don't hunt up there and prolly never will. So if cams were outlawed it would have an affect on us where there is no real problem. I shouldn't have to suffer someone else's consequences.


























Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest

 

[mesquitehunter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-11 AT 06:30PM (MST)[p]Enough said from me..You're not gonna change my opinion and I'm not gonna change yours... We've beaten this horse to death.



























Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest

 

[AZWALKER]

+1 on this being beaten to death. I'm in the same boat as Mesquitehunter and I hunt the same kind of country. Its truly a different story down here guys. But whatever I'm done.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[WhiskeyMan]

""Buzz, if you don't kill one cat per year and 10 coyotes per year here in Arizona, you are doing more damage and effecting the resource more than 50 hunters with 10 trailcameras each.""



AZWALKER, I just about like your statement here. When I hang out on the Strip, I make sure to bring two things. My whole entire collection of optics.......and my favorite rifle.....my Weatherby .22-250. I try not to be a hypocrite in deer management. I agree.....we prolly should let this topic rest.....at least for a couple weeks or so, huh?

http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos/7695img_0231_1.jpg

 

[BuzzH]

I'd argue that trail cams and technology in archery equipment are a non-issue in Southern Arizona...be prepared to have to draw an archery tag there soon.

Count on it.

 

[AZWALKER]

I'm prepared. They already tried to pull that once and their arguement was that bow hunters shouldn't take more than 20% of the overall harvest. It wasn't a banner year for archery down here. So that may take some pressure off.

Back on the original topic. Do you guys really think 10 to 15 tags in those 2 units will make that big a difference??? Honest question here. Like I said in a prior post, they usually make 50 tag shifts either way most of the time. Down here anyway.

I will say one more thing though about TC's. If they outlaw TC's before they open trapping back up they are the biggest bunch of idiots known to man. IMO.


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[fin little]

Just a FYI, Trapping is still legal in Az. Theres people doing really well at it up here North of the colorado. Leg hold traps were banned not trapping.

 

[AZWALKER]

I was talking about legholds and I looked into the legal means to do it now and its a joke. They require you to take a class to get the licence but don't offer the class. At least they didn't 4 years ago. Trust me I searched and searched. You can use a leghold but the require it have rubber claws as not to break the leg. If there are guys doing it I'd love to see how they set up and got the licence because I'd love to start trapping.



"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[fin little]

AzWalker, I will get you the information you need on Monday. There using live trap cages and doing really well. They are skilled trappers that have been doing it for decades. They just adapted when leg holds were banned. I will find out about the licence process.

 

[AZWALKER]

Wow thanks man. How are they doing on bobcats?


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[prescottwizard]

>So I just got done looking
>at the deer hunt recomendations.
>What in the hell is
>Game an Fish thinking when
>it comes to the strip?
>They had what most people
>have called the best year
>in killing GIANT bucks EVER.
>Yet they are bumping up
>rifle tags in both A
>and B. Now in their
>defence they took tags away
>from the bowhunters for a
>net loss of 5 tags
>in 13a but a net
>gain of 5 in 13b..
>This is total BS.....
>
>Why after what happened last year
>would you raise rifle tags?
>That is more pressure on
>the older bucks that are
>left, that were hammered last
>year. I know they will
>say its to keep buck
>to doe ratios blah blah
>blah. they need to kill
>some bucks then let the
>bowhunters do it. They will
>shoot 150 170 type deer.
>Rifle hunters, for the most
>part, won't. They want giants.
>I've had both archery and
>rifle tags since 2008.
>With a rifle it was
>200 or bust, luckily I
>had success. With a bow,
>my standards were lower and
>I ate a tag cause
>I got greedy. So I
>know the mindset of both
>hunts up there...
>
>With the increase in rifle tags
>they will now start doing
>to strip deer as they
>have done with antelope. No
>big bucks!!!
>
>What sayeth you all???? Obviously I
>think they are making a
>HUGE mistake...
>
I agree......and - who knows what this agency is thinking half the time or how they are basing thier information

 

[maddglasser]

I know several guy's that trap...Live trap. 1 of them has caught 1 coyote! Thats not many IMO. They do very well on fox and bobcats, but I don't think a kit fox kills many deer, could be wrong though!

 

[fin little]

You got to be good to catch yotes, they do catch quite a few yotes and alot of bobcats. The guy that works with me in the summer makes more trapping in the winter than he does working in the summer. He and his brother are experts and they work hard at it.I will get his winter tally on monday.

 

[maddglasser]

I guess a person would really have to work at it to get that good. I wish more people knew the secrets. The yotes are getting outa control!

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-11 AT 09:53AM (MST)[p]Thats what I'm screaming. Drove by our local park the other day in the middle of Phoenix and they were sunning in the middle of the park.... Oh yeah, holy crap I almost forgot. I was out on the front porch 2 weeks ago smoking a cigar and up walks this coyote. 10 feet from me... he looks over at me and takes a dump right on my porch! Nasty little bastard. Dude, I live in the middle of town. Nasty damn things!

They are getting bad out by you guys too Travis. I hunted over by Effus and saw more yotes than cows if you can believe that. We should organize a "Friends of the 40's" coyote hunt. Get all the guys that we know that hunt there and do a big coyote hunt.


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[DonMartin]

Guys:

Before you all get excited, maybe someone ought to ask G&F about all of this?

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, even that Whiskey Man aka Two Dogs...

Don't agree with him of course, and before I start commenting on tag issues I want to talk to G&F and see what the game managers and biologists up there are saying is occurring.

However, anyone who doesn't think the deer on the Strip are doing great and have been for quite a while now has their head in the sand (IMO).

AS to the guides and trail cams, well no one needs to defend the guys listed by the agitator. All the names I saw are honest, hard working and well respected guides who do their homework, and get it done year after year for those who seek their assistance.

If you want to wait for a decade or more in many cases and give it a shot on your own, go for it. Some boomer bucks are taken every year by DIY guys, and I for one have a lot of respect for them.

But to say that just because a hunter chooses to use a guide doesn't mean he is any the less a sportsman.

Last year I had cameras out and got photos of quite a few good bucks on the Strip. But the HUGE CACTUS BUCK that Tony Keller shot on day five was one I found two weeks BEFORE the start of the hunt! He wasn't on any camera I had out! And we hunted him hard for 5 days before we got 'em! Tony and his son both had tags and there was myself and one friend on that hunt. Hardly a TEAM effort.

The buck my archery hunter got on the Strip last year was not on any trail cams I had out. One of my guides had a tag and his dad was with him. I was with my hunter. Hardly a TEAM effort.

The 378 6 X 6 bull I shot on the muzzleloader hunt in Unit 6A wasn't on any trail cams either. I had three NR clients with their own guides in Unit 6A. I had one of my long time friends with me on my hunt. And yes we had a videographer along to film the action. Yeah, we had a big camp, but hardly a TEAM effort.

Bottom line is that while cameras may tell you some information, they don't tell it all and you still have to hunt if you want to tag a critter.

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
"A successful guide and proud of it"