WHERE ARE ALL THE DEER???

Let’s hope those in charge will make the necessary changes to get our deer herds back.
 
"Mule deer decline has been a West-wide issue," he said, pointing to other significant declines in neighboring states. "Utah is no exception to that."

Instead of staying close-minded and boxed in, maybe reach out to other state agencies? I'm sure they are.
 
Funny, I just posted this in the muledeer section. Cutting tags will never help unless you cutt it so extreme you make everyone mad, to make a difference for tag cuts you would have to cut more than 60% of the tags, thats right over60% to make the difference cuting less than that you still harvest about the same amount of deer each year. Lets say you have 100 acres and there are 10 bucks on your ground and you give 8 tags, 6 tags are filled. Winter happens there is some die off and the next year you have 6 bucks on your ground and you cut the tags to 5 and although you cut the tags success was 3. When you had 10 bucks you lost 6 which left you 4 winter conditions were bad and up coming crop wasn't good so your next year was 6 bucks and you gave 5 tags but killed 3, you are now worse than the previous year. Does this make sense cuts have to be so extreme to make everyone upset not just a few. That is the only way, but then there is the argument that bucks dont birth fawns, but Ill tell you this model hasn't worked in the 25 years I have been following mule deer plans.
 
cantkillathing said:
Funny, I just posted this in the muledeer section. Cutting tags will never help unless you cutt it so extreme you make everyone mad, to make a difference for tag cuts you would have to cut more than 60% of the tags, thats right over60% to make the difference cuting less than that you still harvest about the same amount of deer each year. Lets say you have 100 acres and there are 10 bucks on your ground and you give 8 tags, 6 tags are filled. Winter happens there is some die off and the next year you have 6 bucks on your ground and you cut the tags to 5 and although you cut the tags success was 3. When you had 10 bucks you lost 6 which left you 4 winter conditions were bad and up coming crop wasn't good so your next year was 6 bucks and you gave 5 tags but killed 3, you are now worse than the previous year. Does this make sense cuts have to be so extreme to make everyone upset not just a few. That is the only way, but then there is the argument that bucks dont birth fawns, but Ill tell you this model hasn't worked in the 25 years I have been following mule deer plans.
Click to expand...

In your example, you're following the same management plan in year 2 as you had in year 1. You issue 80% of your buck count to tags with a 60% success rate.

People can interpret it whether it's good or bad however they want and whether or not you're worse off.

But, if you don't issue any tags in year 2, year 3 you'll have those 3 same bucks plus whatever fawn crop you have that are bucks without them having to make up the 3 buck deficit from year 2.
 
roadrunner said:
In your example, you're following the same management plan in year 2 as you had in year 1. You issue 80% of your buck count to tags with a 60% success rate.

People can interpret it whether it's good or bad however they want and whether or not you're worse off.

But, if you don't issue any tags in year 2, year 3 you'll have those 3 same bucks plus whatever fawn crop you have that are bucks without them having to make up the 3 buck deficit from year 2.
Click to expand...
Thats what I am pointing out, that you would have to cut way more tags to ever make a difference, or it is basically the same plan.
 
I don't know why they just don't tell the legislators and everybody else who is concerned the truth..we've had a piss poor deer management program for about thirty years and it's just about too late to fix it..
 
cantkillathing said:
Thats what I am pointing out, that you would have to cut way more tags to ever make a difference, or it is basically the same plan.
Click to expand...
BUT************

If you have 10 does, 5 die off in winter. Now you have 5 does to give birth. Then the you have 5 does and 5 fawns, 3 bucks and 2 does. And now you have 7 does. But next year, 3 die to predators and cars. Down to 4 does......
And it goes on and on. More does are dying than surviving.

****I know in todays world with gender issues, but bucks dont matter as much as does. BUCKS DONT GIVE BIRTH. We need more does to survive to grow the herd. Stock piling bucks will only grow your herd by a few. Does will grow the herd exponentially.

With out more does and fawns surviving, it wont matter if you shut the hunts down for 10 years. All you have is more bucks.
 
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These our just thoughts.
1. Rotation of some unit… Cuts/close
2. Antlers restriction 4 pnts for short time
3. tags for only certain SIZE antlers
4. 3 day season on some units or season
5. More archery tags less rifle tags

My thoughts was hunters want to hunt.
Normally they’re willing to give up something even if it makes it harder for them to harvest a deer as long as they get to go. There’s no guarantee any of this would work it’s probably to late if only Mother Nature would cooperate?
 
cantkillathing said:
Funny, I just posted this in the muledeer section. Cutting tags will never help unless you cutt it so extreme you make everyone mad, to make a difference for tag cuts you would have to cut more than 60% of the tags, thats right over60% to make the difference cuting less than that you still harvest about the same amount of deer each year. Lets say you have 100 acres and there are 10 bucks on your ground and you give 8 tags, 6 tags are filled. Winter happens there is some die off and the next year you have 6 bucks on your ground and you cut the tags to 5 and although you cut the tags success was 3. When you had 10 bucks you lost 6 which left you 4 winter conditions were bad and up coming crop wasn't good so your next year was 6 bucks and you gave 5 tags but killed 3, you are now worse than the previous year. Does this make sense cuts have to be so extreme to make everyone upset not just a few. That is the only way, but then there is the argument that bucks dont birth fawns, but Ill tell you this model hasn't worked in the 25 years I have been following mule deer plans.
Click to expand...
We could cut the buck tags to ZERO and it still wouldn't stop the deer population decline because killing bucks is not the problem!

I know I have a one-track mind when it comes to this issue, but I'll say it again. It's CHEATGRASS! Almost every excuse we give or hear about can be traced back to the overwhelming invasion of cheatgrass. It's in EVERY state in the nation, including Alaska and Hawaii (Maui fires). And it grows at every deer habitat elevation and in every deer habitat temperature, soil and climate. And it causes more problems than most of you can imagine. EVERY part of that plant "cheats" in some way or another to negatively affect ALL deer (bucks, does and fawns) and/or deer habitat. It's nasty stuff and will take some time, effort and money to eradicate or control, But it would be worth it in the long run, not just for big game hunting, but for agriculture, landscaping and fire safety as well.
 
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elkfromabove said:
We could cut the buck tags to ZERO and it still wouldn't stop the deer population decline because killing bucks is not the problem!

I know I have a one-track mind when it comes to this issue, but I'll say it again. It's CHEATGRASS! Almost every excuse we give or hear about can be traced back to the overwhelming invasion of cheatgrass. It's in EVERY state in the nation, including Alaska and Hawaii (Maui fires). And it grows at every deer habitat elevation and in every deer habitat temperature, soil and climate. And it causes more problems than most of you can imagine. EVERY part of that plant "cheats" in some way or another to negatively affect ALL deer (bucks, does and fawns) and/or deer habitat. It's nasty stuff and will take some time, effort and money to eradicate or control, But it would be worth it in the long run, not just for big game hunting, but for agriculture, landscaping and fire safety as well.
Click to expand...

And here I thought loss of winter range had something to do with it.
 
Robiland said:
BUT************

If you have 10 does, 8 die off in winter. Now you have 8 does to give birth. Then the you have 8 does and 8 fawns, 4 bucks and 4 does. And now you 12 does. But next year, 6 die to predators and cars. Down to 6 does......
And it goes on and on. More does are dying than surviving.

****I know in todays world with gender issues, but bucks dont matter as much as does. BUCKS DONT GIVE BIRTH. We need more does to survive to grow the herd. Stock piling bucks will only grow your herd by a few. Does will grow the herd exponentially.

With out more does and fawns surviving, it wont matter if you shut the hunts down for 10 years. All you have is more bucks.
Click to expand...

If you have 10 does, 8 die off, doesn't that give 2 does to carry on?
 
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The one thing that should happen 100% is there should not be a single doe hunt for deer. NOT ONE!!! IF there are problem deer, lets use the MILLIONS of dollars from the expo each year and re locate the deer. No matter if they are city deer or eating a farmers alfalfa or corn. No matter if its deer or elk or antelope. RE LOCATE each and every one of them out of the city or problem areas. There should not be a single depredation hunt in Utah.
 
roadrunner said:
In your example, you're following the same management plan in year 2 as you had in year 1. You issue 80% of your buck count to tags with a 60% success rate.

People can interpret it whether it's good or bad however they want and whether or not you're worse off.

But, if you don't issue any tags in year 2, year 3 you'll have those 3 same bucks plus whatever fawn crop you have that are bucks without them having to make up the 3 buck deficit from year 2.
Click to expand...

Unless it's winter and those bucks die. Unless it's drought and those bucks die, unless, unless, unless.

This is like listening to the libs keep saying that men can get pregnant.

A buck, in year 1 is a single deer.. same as year 4.

A doe, is potentially 6+ deer in her life.

This isn't a hard issue
 
Robi Said It!

So I Won't Have To!

They'd Have To Use Some Of Their Money Though!

Robiland said:
The one thing that should happen 100% is there should not be a single doe hunt for deer. NOT ONE!!! IF there are problem deer, lets use the MILLIONS of dollars from the expo each year and re locate the deer. No matter if they are city deer or eating a farmers alfalfa or corn. No matter if its deer or elk or antelope. RE LOCATE each and every one of them out of the city or problem areas. There should not be a single depredation hunt in Utah.
Click to expand...
 
Hey Hossy!

You Might Wanna Go Look At The Breeding Stock After They've Been Pounded For 5-6 Months!




hossblur said:
Unless it's winter and those bucks die. Unless it's drought and those bucks die, unless, unless, unless.

This is like listening to the libs keep saying that men can get pregnant.

A buck, in year 1 is a single deer.. same as year 4.

A doe, is potentially 6+ deer in her life.

This isn't a hard issue
Click to expand...
 
Robiland said:
The one thing that should happen 100% is there should not be a single doe hunt for deer. NOT ONE!!! IF there are problem deer, lets use the MILLIONS of dollars from the expo each year and re locate the deer. No matter if they are city deer or eating a farmers alfalfa or corn. No matter if its deer or elk or antelope. RE LOCATE each and every one of them out of the city or problem areas. There should not be a single depredation hunt in Utah.
Click to expand...

But are elk really on the decline like deer? I don't believe cow hunts have the same impact on elk populations as doe hunts do.
 
roadrunner said:
And here I thought loss of winter range had something to do with it.
Click to expand...
It does! That's why I said "Almost" every excuse we give........" There are just some things that can't be blamed on cheatgrass and human encroachment is one of those things. However, even human encroachment doesn't always stop the deer from continuing to use that land in the winter.
 
10,000 tags cut in the last two years. 20,000+ from just 5 years ago. 5 straight years of tag cuts. (But they only manage for money!!!!) There are 72.1% less deer tags today than when I started going along with my dad. So cant’s claim of 60% of more is already realized. We’ve far exceeded it.

I’m sure it’s just a delayed reaction that we haven’t seen the giant jumps in deer numbers. I guess we can just keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. I’m sure it will work the NEXT time we try it!
 
Tag cuts haven't worked..Jeeze.. I wonder why..you would think the powers to be would realize this and get to working on the real problems.. Could it be to fix the real problems would cost alot of money and they just don't want to let go of all the easy money that they put in their coffers..
 
Vanilla said:
10,000 tags cut in the last two years. 20,000+ from just 5 years ago. 5 straight years of tag cuts. (But they only manage for money!!!!) There are 72.1% less deer tags today than when I started going along with my dad. So cant’s claim of 60% of more is already realized. We’ve far exceeded it.

I’m sure it’s just a delayed reaction that we haven’t seen the giant jumps in deer numbers. I guess we can just keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. I’m sure it will work the NEXT time we try it!
Click to expand...

Ya!

Let's Try Another 5+ Decades Of The Same STUPID SSHITT & See If It Fixes Itself!
 
Well cant!

At Least Niller Didn't Chew Your Ass!

If I Had Mentioned A 60% Cut.............................Holy FRICK!
 
We’ve already done more than that Bessy. Now I’m just waiting for the promised explosion in deer!

It has to be just right around the corner…
 
elkfromabove said:
We could cut the buck tags to ZERO and it still wouldn't stop the deer population decline because killing bucks is not the problem!

I know I have a one-track mind when it comes to this issue, but I'll say it again. It's CHEATGRASS! Almost every excuse we give or hear about can be traced back to the overwhelming invasion of cheatgrass. It's in EVERY state in the nation, including Alaska and Hawaii (Maui fires). And it grows at every deer habitat elevation and in every deer habitat temperature, soil and climate. And it causes more problems than most of you can imagine. EVERY part of that plant "cheats" in some way or another to negatively affect ALL deer (bucks, does and fawns) and/or deer habitat. It's nasty stuff and will take some time, effort and money to eradicate or control, But it would be worth it in the long run, not just for big game hunting, but for agriculture, landscaping and fire safety as well.
Click to expand...
I am with you on this one and Phragmites is Public Enemy #2. Never seen such a disaster on Utah lake and the Jordan river. Can’t be good for deer either.
 
Robiland said:
The one thing that should happen 100% is there should not be a single doe hunt for deer. NOT ONE!!! IF there are problem deer, lets use the MILLIONS of dollars from the expo each year and re locate the deer. No matter if they are city deer or eating a farmers alfalfa or corn. No matter if its deer or elk or antelope. RE LOCATE each and every one of them out of the city or problem areas. There should not be a single depredation hunt in Utah.
Click to expand...
Have you ever been on a deer relocation/transplant and seen what it takes to do it?
 
Still living rent free in someone’s dome. How sad of a life to think so much about someone on the internet you’ve never even met.

Be like Elsa and let it go little buddy. I promise, it gets better.
 
Vanilla said:
10,000 tags cut in the last two years. 20,000+ from just 5 years ago. 5 straight years of tag cuts. (But they only manage for money!!!!) There are 72.1% less deer tags today than when I started going along with my dad. So cant’s claim of 60% of more is already realized. We’ve far exceeded it.

I’m sure it’s just a delayed reaction that we haven’t seen the giant jumps in deer numbers. I guess we can just keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. I’m sure it will work the NEXT time we try it!
Click to expand...
That many tag cuts equals yearly closures of a few of our units.
Neither works.
 
And, I don’t get the 4 point or better rule.
It didn’t work before, it won’t work again.
What I would love to see tried is a few units be two point or less.
Keep the superior genes around.
If you are a meat hunter, go kill your two point in one of these areas while viewing big bucks.
That is some family fun right there.
I figure that would be like our spike only Elk units that are fun and quite successful.
Disclaimer: I am not a biologist so maybe this won’t work…..?
 
When Was the 4 Point Rule?



MrShane said:
And, I don’t get the 4 point or better rule.
It didn’t work before, it won’t work again.
What I would love to see tried is a few units be two point or less.
Keep the superior genes around.
If you are a meat hunter, go kill your two point in one of these areas while viewing big bucks.
That is some family fun right there.
I figure that would be like our spike only Elk units that are fun and quite successful.
Disclaimer: I am not a biologist so maybe this won’t work…..?
Click to expand...
 
HUNTINFORLIFE said:
Would you like to see units go to only recurve bows, flintlock muzzy and iron sight rifles. That will for sure kill less deer. Thats what is coming for some units this year in the November
Click to expand...

Vanilla said:
We’ve already done more than that Bessy. Now I’m just waiting for the promised explosion in deer!

It has to be just right around the corner…
Click to expand...
So the flip side would be keep hunting them as usual, give the tags out and lets keep hunting them as usual and will this make the difference?
 
Robiland said:
BUT************

If you have 10 does, 5 die off in winter. Now you have 5 does to give birth. Then the you have 5 does and 5 fawns, 3 bucks and 2 does. And now you have 7 does. But next year, 3 die to predators and cars. Down to 4 does......
And it goes on and on. More does are dying than surviving.

****I know in todays world with gender issues, but bucks dont matter as much as does. BUCKS DONT GIVE BIRTH. We need more does to survive to grow the herd. Stock piling bucks will only grow your herd by a few. Does will grow the herd exponentially.

With out more does and fawns surviving, it wont matter if you shut the hunts down for 10 years. All you have is more bucks.
Click to expand...
Why is the hunting 50x better on private ranches in general areas and in the LE entry units? If your rationale is correct, the populations should be equal in all areas.
 
Just Goes to Show who Manages For The Best!

If Ranchers Managed Their Herds Like We Manage Big Game They'd Be Broke/Done In No Time!



yotebuster17 said:
Why is the hunting 50x better on private ranches in general areas and in the LE entry units? If your rationale is correct, the populations should be equal in all areas.
Click to expand...
 
cantkillathing said:
So the flip side would be keep hunting them as usual, give the tags out and lets keep hunting them as usual and will this make the difference?
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that the only two management strategies for mule deer herd health are tag cuts or tag increases/staying the same?

I know you don’t believe this. So it’s odd you are dying on that hill for the sake of this discussion.

I actually think the alternatives are vast, and they might actually help increase mule deer herds!

I’ve said it a thousand times on this forum, I’ll say it again. Tag cuts will only benefit Nile deer herds when hunting is the limiting factor on mule deer herds. It is not the limiting factor. It is 100% not the limiting factor. It isn’t even A limiting factor. This isn’t even rationally debatable. Tag cuts are a feel good measure for uneducated folks or a desire for trophy hunters to put more inches on the landscape. There is no scientific benefit to tag cuts for mule deer herd health until hunting is a limiting factor for the herd.

But can’t, I know you already know all this. Which makes the argument really odd.
 
Here is a riddle. A bit of a math question.

If you have two doe mule deer, you shoot and kill it and you transport the other and it dies due to the transport, how many doe mule deer do you have living?
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Hossy!

You Might Wanna Go Look At The Breeding Stock After They've Been Pounded For 5-6 Months!
Click to expand...
Once upon a time I thought I'd pound the breeding stock for 5-6 months. I quit after about ten minutes.

It took a while before I wanted to go look at it again.:LOL:
 
If You Have DOE SHOOTER Hunts Anywhere In This State What Are You Doing?

HINT:

You're A Contributor To The PISS POOR DEER HERD Of Today!



Vanilla said:
Here is a riddle. A bit of a math question.

If you have two doe mule deer, you shoot and kill it and you transport the other and it dies due to the transport, how many doe mule deer do you have living?
Click to expand...
 
Should have no doe hunts at all for deer or antelope. I seen them destroy the Elk heard on 3 corners a few years back when they gave out like 500 cow tags. The elk are coming back in there now but they have not had cow hunts for like 10 years now.
 
elkfromabove said:
Have you ever been on a deer relocation/transplant and seen what it takes to do it?
Click to expand...
No I have not, but i am sure its tough and cost money. Instead of doing projects on private lands, lets use that money to save even 10 deer from the city or a farmers field per year. Instead of going to private lands or pockets.
 
elkassassin said:
When Was the 4 Point Rule?
Click to expand...
They did it on Monroe for several years back in the late early 90's. When I was younger and we grew up hunting Monroe on our families property, each year they would talk on friday night with everyone to remember the rule of 4 point or better. It went on for several years until I left for a mission and not sure after that.
 
yotebuster17 said:
Why is the hunting 50x better on private ranches in general areas and in the LE entry units? If your rationale is correct, the populations should be equal in all areas.
Click to expand...
Simple. There are more bucks and better buck to doe ratios because there are WAY LESS TAGS! Pretty darn simple. The heard isnt any better. Just more bucks. ITs an illusion. Go to the Pauns or Henry's and see lots of bucks. Especially the Henrys, lots of bucks, but not as many does. The herd isnt growing. Its stagnant. They need to find a way to save does and fawns from dying.

Common sense says you limit the # of bucks killed, there will be more bucks, right? Well, we dont kill does....that often but the herd is not growing. WHY? This is the problem. Stock piling bucks will do nothing for the herd to grow.
 
Vanilla said:
Here is a riddle. A bit of a math question.

If you have two doe mule deer, you shoot and kill it and you transport the other and it dies due to the transport, how many doe mule deer do you have living?
Click to expand...


Depending on time of year, you could be -6(twins).
 
Robiland said:
Simple. There are more bucks and better buck to doe ratios because there are WAY LESS TAGS! Pretty darn simple. The heard isnt any better. Just more bucks. ITs an illusion. Go to the Pauns or Henry's and see lots of bucks. Especially the Henrys, lots of bucks, but not as many does. The herd isnt growing. Its stagnant. They need to find a way to save does and fawns from dying.

Common sense says you limit the # of bucks killed, there will be more bucks, right? Well, we dont kill does....that often but the herd is not growing. WHY? This is the problem. Stock piling bucks will do nothing for the herd to grow.
Click to expand...

So your remedy is to have about 5k hunters per year?

These are stupid arguments.

AI is the best "quality" buck to doe ratio in the state, so by your logic we should copy that success.?

Btw, AI herds are pretty stagnate as well, seems does do the birthing and only need one buck to make it work


Bess, it's about 9 miles off to the island to town. The does somehow get bred. Watched 20ish bred by single buck.
 
Spend money on big game no way they would rather close roads or protect a frog or something like that Then worry about big game, Hell you cant even get them to put up a flashing deer sigh on the road from Manila to vernal but They there are cattle sighs on the route. I can promise you the herds around the Gorge took a 50% loss last year and maybe a lot higher then that.
 
Robiland said:
Simple. There are more bucks and better buck to doe ratios because there are WAY LESS TAGS! Pretty darn simple. The heard isnt any better. Just more bucks. ITs an illusion. Go to the Pauns or Henry's and see lots of bucks. Especially the Henrys, lots of bucks, but not as many does. The herd isnt growing. Its stagnant. They need to find a way to save does and fawns from dying.

Common sense says you limit the # of bucks killed, there will be more bucks, right? Well, we dont kill does....that often but the herd is not growing. WHY? This is the problem. Stock piling bucks will do nothing for the herd to grow.
Click to expand...


Not a single guy took me up on my tag tear up video challenge, and Deer hunt starts sat. It's almost as if all the cut tags, shut it down guys, ONLY MEAN SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD SIT, NOT THEM.?

I'm betting same guys will also go try to get lotto tags in Feb.
 
elkassassin said:
When Was the 4 Point Rule?
Click to expand...
In certain Utah areas in late 80’s, maybe in to early ‘90’s.
I graduated HS in ‘87 and hunted the Oak Creek city hills about the ‘86-‘88 timeframe.
It was four point or better.
Now look what we have there.
A unit that has some tremendous bucks that most likely not a single one of us in this conversation will ever hunt in our lifetimes.
Screw that!
But would I burn a PP or two to go to that unit with my family, under a two point or less rule, and kill a small buck with a traditional muzzleloader while seeing 3 points and bigger all day while finding a forked horn?
Heck yes, that sounds like a fantastic hunt!
 
Robiland said:
Simple. There are more bucks and better buck to doe ratios because there are WAY LESS TAGS! Pretty darn simple. The heard isnt any better. Just more bucks. ITs an illusion. Go to the Pauns or Henry's and see lots of bucks. Especially the Henrys, lots of bucks, but not as many does. The herd isnt growing. Its stagnant. They need to find a way to save does and fawns from dying.

Common sense says you limit the # of bucks killed, there will be more bucks, right? Well, we dont kill does....that often but the herd is not growing. WHY? This is the problem. Stock piling bucks will do nothing for the herd to grow.
Click to expand...
I spend a fair amount of time on a ranch in NE UT in one of the worst general areas in the state and the doe population is exceptional. It took a hit this winter but it’s still possible to see dozens to nearly a hundred does a night. Go across to the forest and you’ll be lucky to see A deer. Same goes for the only LE unit I’ve hunted. We saw hundreds of does. The adjacent general unit sucks. Might be something to killing every single fork horn that exists in them. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but maybe, just maybe, if we left a few more bucks the lions wouldn’t have to eat the does and fawns (oh wait, lions DONT eat does and fawns according to a lot of people ?). Also, if we didn’t harass them for 3.5 months straight they might just do a little better. I can’t think of a time or place I’ve ever been where reducing pressure on bucks doesn’t vastly improve a deer population.
 
yotebuster17 said:
I spend a fair amount of time on a ranch in NE UT in one of the worst general areas in the state and the doe population is exceptional. It took a hit this winter but it’s still possible to see dozens to nearly a hundred does a night. Go across to the forest and you’ll be lucky to see A deer. Same goes for the only LE unit I’ve hunted. We saw hundreds of does. The adjacent general unit sucks. Might be something to killing every single fork horn that exists in them. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but maybe, just maybe, if we left a few more bucks the lions wouldn’t have to eat the does and fawns (oh wait, lions DONT eat does and fawns according to a lot of people ?). Also, if we didn’t harass them for 3.5 months straight they might just do a little better. I can’t think of a time or place I’ve ever been where reducing pressure on bucks doesn’t vastly improve a deer population.
Click to expand...
So on a ranch, with feed and water, you see way more does and fawns? Wow, how am I not surprised???? They are not hunted on there are they? They go where there is less pressure, more feed and water. Until the Bucks give birth to fawns, your argument is vague.
 
The solution is actually very simple, like a lot of people have stated above.

Shut the doe season down now statewide and open the season on predators.
 
yotebuster17 said:
I spend a fair amount of time on a ranch in NE UT in one of the worst general areas in the state and the doe population is exceptional. It took a hit this winter but it’s still possible to see dozens to nearly a hundred does a night. Go across to the forest and you’ll be lucky to see A deer. Same goes for the only LE unit I’ve hunted. We saw hundreds of does. The adjacent general unit sucks. Might be something to killing every single fork horn that exists in them. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but maybe, just maybe, if we left a few more bucks the lions wouldn’t have to eat the does and fawns (oh wait, lions DONT eat does and fawns according to a lot of people ?). Also, if we didn’t harass them for 3.5 months straight they might just do a little better. I can’t think of a time or place I’ve ever been where reducing pressure on bucks doesn’t vastly improve a deer population.
Click to expand...
Its more like 6 months especially with all the shed hunters shed hunting and cow elk hunts in January they get 0 rest especially when they need it
 
hossblur said:
Not a single guy took me up on my tag tear up video challenge, and Deer hunt starts sat. It's almost as if all the cut tags, shut it down guys, ONLY MEAN SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD SIT, NOT THEM.?

I'm betting same guys will also go try to get lotto tags in Feb.
Click to expand...
they are all sending them into epic outdoors they are drawing some really good prizes for guys who send in their tags.
 
HntHrdr said:
Yes cut doe tags to nothing or almost nothing and see what happens
Click to expand...
One of you (elkassassin, Robiland, MOOSEPOND, Mallardsx2, HntHrdr) is gonna hafta make the proposal to the RAC's and Wildlife Board to shut down ALL deer antlerless hunts in order to grow the herds. I'll let them give you the answer but be prepared to eat crow!

However, I can tell you this. I participated in the Parowan Front doe deer transplants in 2013 through 2015 and even took part in the planning sessions out in the field beforehand and then followed up with 53 updates on this forum. I won't bother you with details, but the bottom line is that those transplanted deer (about 300 does) added NOTHING to the population of the receiving unit (Pahvant/Fillmore). In fact, the Pahvant (Fillmore) unit population actually dropped 1,000 (from 10,100 to 9,100) during the transplants and is now only 6,700 ten years later. That's 3,400 fewer! And costs were about $1,000 per deer captured or about $2,500 per successfully transplanted deer ($300,000 to $375,000 which was paid for by SFW because DWR didn't want to do it from the getgo!). Be careful what you wish for!

Edited for clarification of funding. Since this was not a DWR approved project, we (United Wildlife Cooperative) made sure that SFW would not use EXPO funds nor auction funds to pay for it. (It was fun watching the local SFW Chapter Reps argue about who was going to tell Don Peay it was coming out of their slush funds. :giggle: )
 
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elkfromabove said:
One of you (elkassassin, Robiland, MOOSEPOND, Mallardsx2, HntHrdr) is gonna hafta make the proposal to the RAC's and Wildlife Board to shut down ALL deer antlerless hunts in order to grow the herds. I'll let them give you the answer but be prepared to eat crow!

However, I can tell you this. I participated in the Parowan Front doe deer transplants in 2013 through 2015 and even took part in the planning sessions out in the field beforehand and then followed up with 53 updates on this forum. I won't bother you with details, but the bottom line is that those transplanted deer (about 300 does) added NOTHING to the population of the receiving unit (Pahvant/Fillmore). In fact, the Pahvant (Fillmore) unit population actually dropped 1,000 (from 10,100 to 9,100) during the transplants and is now only 6,700 ten years later. That's 3,400 fewer! And costs were about $1,000 per deer captured or about $2,500 per successfully transplanted deer ($300,000 to $375,000). Be careful what you wish for!
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If the muleys can’t hack it there has to be some biological explanation or reason or theory, I will say at least Utah is going to take it to the predators and see if it helps, better than nothing. Or let’s just get to transplanting white tails right now since those suckers seem to thrive almost anywhere

Also good on you for getting involved, wonder what the effect would have been instead of transplanting does, just not killing them for a few years if it would have had any impact? From my understanding they slashed cow and doe tags to about zero for the northwest corner of Co, so that would point to it maybe working?
 
hossblur said:
Unless it's winter and those bucks die. Unless it's drought and those bucks die, unless, unless, unless.

This is like listening to the libs keep saying that men can get pregnant.

A buck, in year 1 is a single deer.. same as year 4.

A doe, is potentially 6+ deer in her life.

This isn't a hard issue
Click to expand...
How many does has that buck impregnated by year 4?
Asking for a friend…
 
There is little to no data that suggests does are not being bred in the first estrus cycle with current B/D ratios. If somebody has deferent data lets see a link.

All the data is saying the fawns are not surviving. The question is why? Then come the first year mortality before hunting season ever arrives.

The simple answers are not at all simple.
 
These XXXXXXXXXXXXX Couldn't Manage A Herd Of 10 Deer Without F'N It Over In To Decimation Within 6 Months!
 
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Vanilla said:
Are you suggesting that the only two management strategies for mule deer herd health are tag cuts or tag increases/staying the same?

I know you don’t believe this. So it’s odd you are dying on that hill for the sake of this discussion.

I actually think the alternatives are vast, and they might actually help increase mule deer herds!

I’ve said it a thousand times on this forum, I’ll say it again. Tag cuts will only benefit Nile deer herds when hunting is the limiting factor on mule deer herds. It is not the limiting factor. It is 100% not the limiting factor. It isn’t even A limiting factor. This isn’t even rationally debatable. Tag cuts are a feel good measure for uneducated folks or a desire for trophy hunters to put more inches on the landscape. There is no scientific benefit to tag cuts for mule deer herd health until hunting is a limiting factor for the herd.

But can’t, I know you already know all this. Which makes the argument really odd.
Click to expand...
what needs to happen and it’s been said, is if the DWR would have been doing there jobs and actually worried about mule deer then we would properly manage them and do what is neeeded to increase the herds. Anyone that believes the numbers they have out there for population is as crazy as they are. So the question is how many deer do we really have? And how do we flame the fire to make something happen, the RAC, WB, DWR, MDF, SFW, none of them have enough fight to rattle the cage to get something done, it has taken Legislative to do something.
 
I won’t argue the DWR has increased deer herds. That would be a silly argument.

But I question what it is that “needed to be done” that wasn’t, because it’s not like this is a unique problem to Utah. And management practices vary greatly throughout the inter mountain west, yet we are all seeing similar outcomes.

I do think there are things we can do, but continuing to cut tags is a feel good measure that will continue to not work, so screw that idea.
 
Maybe We Should Pressure Game Herds Just A Little Harder Niller?



Vanilla said:
I won’t argue the DWR has increased deer herds. That would be a silly argument.

But I question what it is that “needed to be done” that wasn’t, because it’s not like this is a unique problem to Utah. And management practices vary greatly throughout the inter mountain west, yet we are all seeing similar outcomes.

I do think there are things we can do, but continuing to cut tags is a feel good measure that will continue to not work, so screw that idea.
Click to expand...
 
HntHrdr said:
If the muleys can’t hack it there has to be some biological explanation or reason or theory,.......
Click to expand...
Cheatgrass!! It's the only thing common to ALL states at all mule deer habitat elevations and all types of mule deer habitat soils, terrain, vegetation, climate, weather and seasons. Re: "Attend or watch tomorrow's Wildlife Board meeting" thread, post #16! It negatively impacts mule deers' health either directly or indirectly, short term and/or long term in at least 20 ways that I can think of. It's nasty stuff and is not called Cheatgrass for nothing!
 
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MrShane said:
Deal!!
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No big deal if they spread it out on different units but when it’s going to be on only the southern units where all your family grew up hunting. Let’s see how many kids we can get involved in hunting with recurve and flintlocks. Never mind the rifles cause it already takes 5 years to draw those 2 units anyways so kids won’t even get a chance to draw that tell there 17 or 18 anyways.
 
cantkillathing said:
So the flip side would be keep hunting them as usual, give the tags out and let’s keep hunting them as usual and will this make the difference?
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Maybe people should start hunting a little harder. I’ve had a tag every year and every year I still seem to dig up 180+ buck. Don’t get me wrong the deer have struggled but every single western state has experience the exact same struggles Utah has. Cut tags when the deer are down but just cause people dont get to find big deer road hunting any more they are trying to blame the way we hunt on why the deer herds are down. We don’t hunt does and numbers are way down. Pretty sure it 100% due to drought or winter kill depending on what part of the state you are in.
 
Well. Here it is opening weekend of rifle(any weapon) deer season and not a single video of tag cutting has reached my inbox. I'm in shocked and utter disbelief at that as I KNOW how many tags cut and shut down fans there are in this forum.

It's almost as if BITCHING, WHINING, COMPLAINING is what they are about.

Here's what I KNOW.
I-15 destroyed deer hunting in Utah. Cut the migration routes off, lead to hundreds of thousands of dead deer. Was it done on purpose to kill deer? No. Was the DWR consulted on it's route? No. How are they supposed to "manage" that?

Mormons killed hundreds of thousands of deer. The Utah "big family" meant lots and lots of new houses. Did anyone consult DWR before that 3-12th kid? No. Does the expanding cities and towns consult DWR? No. But they get blamed for managing that.

Utah's forest degradation and mismanagement killed hundreds of thousands of deer. Dies the Sierra Club, SWA or any of the lawfare biology groups consult the DWR? No. But they get blamed for not managing around that.

Further. We are 30 years into cutting tags to save mule deer. 30 years of failure, yet, it gets run up the flag pole by the same folks every year. They can't show a single instance in which HERD numbers increased as a trend because of it. They can show trophy bucks may have, but the HERDS have not.

On the flip side, there is ACTUAL PROOF that cutting tags cost us a ton in community support, political power, and financing of wildlife. All three greatly hurt herd creation, and the science that is wildlife management.

There won't be a single hunter at a zoning board meeting. Won't be one at a UDOT meeting. Our Senators aren't hunters. Our reps aren't. Our Governor isn't. The mayors aren't. Why? Because our concern for deer, is way down the list when we vote, so the folks voted in, share that level of concern, and yet some wonder why the DWR can't manage deer, despite us not empowering them to do so.
 
slamdunk said:
Highway mortality, poor habitat conditions due to drought and thousands of doe killed on depredation issues should be the focus over reducing buck tag numbers.
Click to expand...
So…… you like how it’s been working then. Happy for you.

You’re clearly happy with the number of bucks we have, or you’d be satisfied if we killed more.

Which is it? We have a magic coincidence and we’ve hit the right number now, or you want to reduce the buck population more?

Asking for a friend.
 
I watched 2spikes fighting this week, and a forkie sniffing around. All 3 have the same genetics they would if they were 8.

But, I'm a realist.

When the words "record snow" are in every new story for 6 months, I assume there is winter kill.

You all can worry about the sperm count on a buck.
 
hossblur said:
I watched 2spikes fighting this week, and a forkie sniffing around. All 3 have the same genetics they would if they were 8.

But, I'm a realist.

When the words "record snow" are in every new story for 6 months, I assume there is winter kill.

You all can worry about the sperm count on a buck.
Click to expand...
That’s what I figured you’d say…, nothing
 
Tikka said:
That’s what I figured you’d say…, nothing
Click to expand...

Ok, since you want to be a smartazz.

Where is this buck? AI? I doubt he bred that many unless he's 180+ buck. Desert buck? Very few I'd guess, since the density of does dictates that. Town buck, probably nailing 40-80?

If all the issues facing mule deer do you really think unbred does is in the top 5?

Roadkill
Predation
Winter
Fawn mortality
Drought
Winter range loss
Elk competition


You REALLY believe unbred does are in front of any of those?

But hey. If you do, sit YOUR azz(not aimed specifically at you) home and eat that tag, quit waiting for the DWR to tell someone else to do it.
Bunch of full grown men needing the gov to tell them what's right, is a sad excuse.

First thing the senior guy in our camp made clear is WE DONT SHOOT LITTLE DEER. Ain't tough. If every dude who bitches, took care of their camp, there would be no need. Pull up your panties, be men, speak up. You don't need some 20 something biologist to tell you.
 
hossblur said:
Ok, since you want to be a smartazz.

Where is this buck? AI? I doubt he bred that many unless he's 180+ buck. Desert buck? Very few I'd guess, since the density of does dictates that. Town buck, probably nailing 40-80?

If all the issues facing mule deer do you really think unbred does is in the top 5?

Roadkill
Predation
Winter
Fawn mortality
Drought
Winter range loss
Elk competition


You REALLY believe unbred does are in front of any of those?

But hey. If you do, sit YOUR azz(not aimed specifically at you) home and eat that tag, quit waiting for the DWR to tell someone else to do it.
Bunch of full grown men needing the gov to tell them what's right, is a sad excuse.

First thing the senior guy in our camp made clear is WE DONT SHOOT LITTLE DEER. Ain't tough. If every dude who bitches, took care of their camp, there would be no need. Pull up your panties, be men, speak up. You don't need some 20 something biologist to tell you.
Click to expand...
Not a smart azz question at all, you seem to know everything about mule deer… Just read any thread of yours, it’s almost like you and tristate are one in the same….
You’re exactly right, you don’t have a clue neither does the DWR on how does that buck would impregnate …
But I’ll be damn you do know bucks don’t have fawns so shoot away…
One more for you hoss, what’s the percentage of bucks vs does that hit the ground at birth … Is it 12- bucks per 100 does?
Just wondering if Mother Nature is wrong in her thinking…
 
2lumpy said:
So…… you like how it’s been working then. Happy for you.

You’re clearly happy with the number of bucks we have, or you’d be satisfied if we killed more.

Which is it? We have a magic coincidence and we’ve hit the right number now, or you want to reduce the buck population more?

Asking for a friend.
Click to expand...
You're right lumpy, let's go ahead and just scratch out conservation efforts, I mean according to you they aren't working at all ?‍♂️
Screenshot_20231023_181410_Chrome.jpg

Makes a guy wonder where we'd be without side funded projects under the 10 year drought we've suffered across the west.

Where did I say I'm totally satisfied with current buck numbers?

It's been said 10k times already but 1 more time can't hurt....."cutting tags doesn't increase deer herds!".

We've cut 150k tags already Lumpy, tell us how well that's working?

Asking for a friend....
 
Tikka said:
Not a smart azz question at all, you seem to know everything about mule deer… Just read any thread of yours, it’s almost like you and tristate are one in the same….
You’re exactly right, you don’t have a clue neither does the DWR on how does that buck would impregnate …
But I’ll be damn you do know bucks don’t have fawns so shoot away…
One more for you hoss, what’s the percentage of bucks vs does that hit the ground at birth … Is it 12- bucks per 100 does?
Just wondering if Mother Nature is wrong in her thinking…
Click to expand...


Is it an ego thing for dudes to find out that they really aren't necessary other than for sperm? There is zero need for a buck after he ejaculates. From that point in, he's competing with the doe for resources.

I always wonder if dudes skipped biology class.

Here's a question for you. Why do you suppose the rut is in the begining of Nov? If bucks are that important, why is mother nature depleting their reserves and injuring them, coming into winter. The answer of course is because. THE FAWN DROPPING AT PREMIUM NUTRITION TIME is nature's most important thing. That buck dying, isn't biologically an issue.

Show me a single cow or sheep rancher that holds a ton of bulls or bucks.

But, you call me when you want to roll out to AI. I'll show you a ton of big, massive bucks. Then I'll let you explain how with all those bucks, the herd is fairly stagnate.
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Hossy?

How Many 170"+ Bucks Has Your Camp Harvested This Year In 2023 So Far?

I'm Just Wondering If Everybody Is Obeying 'Senior'?
Click to expand...


First, we don't "harvest", we ain't farmers.

Second, I've never measured a deer/elk. Is 170 a magical number?

Third, since I started with them in 78', about 1-2 mature deer a year. We are at 1 this year. Same kid did the same last year.

Did I see more deer overall last year, yeah.

Winter kill is an actual thing.
 

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