Who is going to drop the $100 for a WY sheep point?

D

DonV

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Who is going to drop the $100 for a WY sheep point?

Just curious, as of the next application WY sheep points will cost $100 each. I am far from the top with 6 points, I am debating of if I am willing to spend $100 more each year to hopefully get near the top of points in probably 30 years.

Anyone have stats on how many people have a given # of points? Nonresidents.

I think the max going into the 2006 draw is 12 points?

I might hang in there for 1 more year and then see how many drop out with the new $100 tag, then guesstimate how long it will take for me to reach the top of the points pool. I am young enough to wait (35) but not sure if it is worth the price tag.

DonV OH
wondering how in the heck anyone let WY get away with this.

What do you residents think of the $100 point fee?

Lets see, $100 for sheep, $75 moose, $40 elk, that is $215 plus app fees. Crazyness
 
WY is not the only state. It cost $118 for your first point in AZ. ($113 for the license + $5.00 for the point) but you only have to pay $5 each for any other point you buy.

Idako makes you buy a license and if you don't get drawn, you don't even get a point.

Cali & Nevada make you buy a license before applying.

They are all the same, they just use different terminology.
 
I only have 3 sheep points and I will be out this year and every other year. I have 4 points for moose and might stick around 1 or 2 more years. I will be all in for deer, elk, and antelope.
 
I sure hope a lot of people just get fed up with the increases, and drop out of the system. More chance for me! I keep applying 'cause there's always a chance for the 25% of tags which are random draw also.

In the long run, even if it cost me $1000 in points and $1500 for a license, it would still be cheap. I'd drop another $5K for a guide and get a good one, and be out less than a Dall or Stone.
 
Hell the Wyoming G&F has to make their money somehow after spending it all on the damn wolves and grizzly bears.
 
They are going to have to change the name of their moose to the Washington Shiras moose here pretty soon. I hear the wolves have gotten most of theirs. Idaho is next. I dopn't know if it effects their sheep any?????
 
Not only the $100, but the absolute B.S. guides in the wilderness rule too. I know there are some sheep outside wilderness areas, but what a handicap. I was doing the $7 in case that ever changed, but for $100, I will fold. Plus, over $2K for a tag if you do draw. I am only one point off the top. I bounced a check one year before the $7 for a point option, because my wife wrote a few more chechs than I planned on. I need to start cutting back on applications due to $$$, and with the new points gouging scheme in WY, it is the natural choice. I am too deep into NV to quit there, but was considering it.
 
I'm into Wyoming for whatever it takes, as I'm down to only the Rocky to complete my slam. That being said, I'll probably drop several of the other states I've been building points in to cover the cost of the Wyoming point (use the $100 I've been sending Oregon for a 1 in 500 chance at a sheep in exchange for the chance at a sure thing in Wyo). I'm one less than max, so I should draw within the next 10 years.

We've covered this before, but it needs repeating: If you have less than 6 points for for sheep in Wyoming you are wasting your time buying the $100 point. After the 2005 draw, there are 2426 people with 6 points or more. Divide that by 48 (the number of sheep tags in the point pool) and you get 50.5 years to work through these applicants. Unless there is a drop out rate of 75% or more most applicants will never make it out of the random draw pool.
 
The way I understand it is that you DON'T have to buy/pay for the point to apply.
So you could stay in your current point pool and just not get a point every year in the future. To do this you MUST apply for the license though not the point code..........
 
Robb is right (from what I understand) you can participate in the random draw without buying the $100 point, as always thanks for the good info - make that great info.

I am right at 6 points, still debating. You guys with one short of the max you MUST keep trying.

Also I think WY is now, by far, the most expensive state to apply in. Sure others make you buy a license but that gets you points across the board.

Again good info

The wilderness issue is a whole other B S thing, do not get me started, big thing is many of the tags that are for the random draw are where sheep are in the wilderness or private land.

As for cheaper then other sheep hunts yes, but only estimating $1000 in bonus points is being very conservative unless you are at the top of the pool. 10 years is an under estimate for most. Not to mention tag prices will skyrocket, but then again so will other sheep hunts.

Hopefully your states recent rocky mnt sheep transfers work and my banking NR rocky mnt sheep points in Utah will pay off in 10 years Robb, otherwise I am missing my chance at a goat tag.

DonV OH

This app game is getting crazy expensive.
 
dwalton, is that info available on the WY website, I want to look to help make my decision, also is that number total for both NR and res? If it is a total I bet NR are even further out then 50 years.

That said I figure from my observations, the average guy with some points is 45, if he gives up at 65, most guys will be out in 20 years, I will be 55, if I hang in there another 10 years I might max out.

Who knows.

Did anyone else write a letter to WY when this was in review? I did, I flat out told them they were pricing the avg Joe out. I asked for more reasonable prices, $25 or $50 max, maybe $100 but that would be for points for everything, not one species.
 
DonV,
The stats are put up for a couple weeks a year. I printed off the most recent and will try to locate it, I could send you a copy.
I too wrote a letter explaining that a jump from $7 to $100 was unreasonable. I felt that $25 or $50 was more like it. Think they will stop at $100????? I don't. I'm out on Moose but am debating on the Sheep. I may do uit one year to see how things shake out. I think the attrition rate will be about 50% for NR so it might pay to saty in a year.
 
Don,

I have 6 moose points (I realize the sheep draw is a different deal) but I am going to buy a point next year and the year after and see how it pans out. I figure I am in the running with six, but a few more will maybe put me in the top tier. Buy a point if you can. The increased cost and point system may be what you need to get a sheep tag. It may work in your favor. 7 bucks for a point was nothing and the 75 or 100 bucks will take a lot of people out of the system I hope. Do not let a year pass without getting a point if you can afford it.
 
100 for sheep, 75 for moose, 50 for elk, 40 for deer, and 30 for antelope, $295 total. I believe Wy is now one of the most expensive states to get points in. Obviously it now comes down to what a person can afford and what his/her priorities are as far as which animals and what states to hunt.
 
It is a real shame that the game has come to this, as someone who occassionally hunts out of state, makes decent income, I just can't justify dropping a $100 per year for who knows how many years on the chance, I might draw the tag. This is crazy.
 
To get the # of applicants that applied and their # of ponits call or write Kevin Hurley out of the Cody G&Fish office. He has all the data.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
Going INTO the 2005 draw: (NR)
Sheep
10 Points - 236
9 Points - 370
8 Points - 229
7 Points - 214
6 Points - 246
5 Points - 1380
4 Points - 1438
3 Points - 1497
2 Points - 1777
1 Point - 2502

Moose
10 Points - 25
9 Points - 75
8 Points - 64
7 Points - 108
6 Points - 179
5 Points - 1597
4 Points - 1731
3 Points - 1910
2 Points - 2287
1 Point - 3131

-MNHunter
 
Going INTO the 2006 draw: (NR)
Sheep
11 Points - 191
10 Points - 330
9 Points - 225
8 Points - 196
7 Points - 226
6 Points - 1258
5 Points - 1312
4 Points - 1327
3 Points - 1475
2 Points - 1629
1 Point - 2587
Moose
11 Points - 20
10 Points - 64
9 Points - 59
8 Points - 92
7 Points - 152
6 Points - 1433
5 Points - 1610
4 Points - 1687
3 Points - 1917
2 Points - 2093
1 Point - 3124

This information is available on the Wyoming Game & Fish website, at: gf.state.wy.us/apps/licensedraw/. Once at this page, click the link at the bottom of the page to "Preference Point Totals". The above info is given for Res. and Non-Res.

HornedToad
 
I suppose I should stay in the sheep pool, being one off the top, but the cost of points and wilderness guide rule have me thinking drop. Looks like 6 more years to clear the top pool in unit 5. Then enough people in my pool to possibly take 30 more years to draw. Drop out rates should make it less, but really looks like a realistic 10-20 year wait. I do have an Idaho rocky too. What to do???

The 6 point pool going in is the start of the $7 point, that is why it is so much bigger than the ones above. Anyone at or below that for sheep should forget the points and just apply for the random draw.
 
Food for thought...
I made some observations from the data from my earlier post and HornedToad's. The total persons with pref points for sheep from 04 to 05 went from 9889 to 10756. Interestingly, 1720 dropped out. They either drew a tag or quit. This is roughly 17% rate of attrition with the $7 fee. What do you think the attrition rate will be with $100 fee? 40%?,50%?, 70?... it may pay to stay in for a year.
-MNHunter
 
MN,

You make a very good, and wise point. I think anyone one who has some points, wants to hunt, and has the extra money should stay in. At least for a year or two as you point out. I think with these tables a guy could reasonably be able to tell if and when he would ever draw and be able to decide if it will be worth the money over the long haul. Thanks for the tables. I did not know they even existed.
 
Again guys thanks a ton - very good info and insights into the math and thought process, for me I am in for sure for one year.

I have 6 points but it is a coincidence, I started after college - just happened to be when the $7 point thing started.

Again thanks

very good info

I love math so this is great stuff!

DonV OH
 
How many NR sheep tags are there typically?

Also I bet that the big difference from 6 to 7 points is because of the $7 fee (obvious as stated above) and I bet 90% of those guys are gone with the $100 fee. Still I will have 1200 ahead of me, but I bet half them are gone in 2 years. Then it is down to advancing by others giving up for many reasons, not drawing tags - that will take a lifetime.
 
Thoughts on if you only have 3 points for sheep and moose going into '06? Worth it? Or should I start spending the money in AZ or NV where I currently do not apply?
 
Upmuley,
I think it depends on how much you want to hunt sheep. I have a sneakiong suspicion that WY is trying to make the PP system work by eliminating those who really do not want to hunt. If enough people do not drop out, I think that years down the road they will increase the random draw % or convert the entire PP system into a bonus point system so that the PP wont lose all value. I think these changes are a ways off. As for your $100. Well, for a little more ($113) plus $5 per species you could build points in AZ. In NV, your $100 won't get you much... the nonrefundable license id $142 plus the fees per species. Both systems are better than WY so you could just enter the random draw in Wy and use your money elsewhere. If you are truly looking for somewhere to take your $100, look to ID. The nonrefundable lic is like $128 (no point system) but there are units with draw odds for non res at 1 in 10 or better.

DonV,
I think they have like 48 or so sheep tags for NR in WY. I could be wrong.

-MNHunter
 
I agree with MN hunter, go for random draw in WY, forget $100, try for ID, CO for sure.

With 3 points you are WAY behind, look at the numbers, even if 75% drop out you have an very very long wait to be at the top, and even then you have lots at your level.

He is right about 48 NR sheep tags to max pnts holders NR

As for me I am going to stick with it, in 20 years I figure I will be at or near the top. $2000 is a LOT, but at that time I will be in very good shape for drawing a tag, better then any other prospects I have for rocky mnt sheep, other then a bow tag in CO I plan to go for from now on.
 
im staying i have the full boat on moose going try for a tag next time $$ ',> ]
 
I'm 30 so I should have 30 years to apply and be in reasonable shape to hunt. 30 years at $100 (not adjusted for inflation) plus $2,000 for the tag = $5,000 + $5,000-$7,000 for the guide totals $10,-$12,000. At that point one would have to weigh your options on going to Alberta. In 30 years I think I would draw even with only 3 points due to attrition and those who draw. One will really have to "think" about applying now where at $7 it was a no brainer.
 
put the $100 in the bank in 7 to 10 yrs you could buy the hunt at auction moose hunt
 
I thought some of you quants might enjoy this information...

For Wyoming Bighorn Sheep (NR), the number of applicats with MAX points (11 for 2006), going into each year:

1995 1,421
1996 1,086
1997 848
1998 741
1999 632
2000 537
2001 455
2002 397
2003 330
2004 282
2005 236
2006 191

The breakdown for the 2005 draw is as follows:

Of 236 eligible MAX point applicants for the 2005 draw, only 232 actually applied, meaning that 4, or about 2%, dropped out. This 2% annual attrition rate has been relatively constant over the past several years.

Of the 232 that applied, 104 put in for 'points only', leaving 128 for the 'preference point draw'. Of these 128, 40 drew permits out of 46 permits available in the PP draw. That means that 6 permits (typically, for the less desirable units) were drawn by applicants with less than the MAX number of points.

There were 11 permits available in the 'random draw'. Of these, 1 was drawn by a MAX point applicant. The other 10 were drawn by one of the 1575 applicants that applied with less than MAX points. There were 7582 eligible applicants with less than MAX points who chose to put in for 'points only'. Draw odds for those with less than MAX points who chose to apply was about 1%.

The number of MAX point applicants eligible for the 2006 draw is 191 (236-4-40-1=191). Based on current draw rates, attrition rates, etc., it will take until 2010 to exhaust the MAX point pool. It should be expected, however, that the remaining MAX point applicants will tend to stack-up in the more desirable units (currently, units 3, 4 and 5) so it could take significantly longer to clear the MAX point pool out of the best units.

My advice... if you really want to hunt bighorns... hang in there, expect the rules to change over time, accept the higher costs as the price of admission for a rare opportunity... and some day, hunt sheep. If you don't really want to hunt bighorns, and have been in the preference point draw only because the $7 cost was so cheap, then drop out and concentrate on some other adventure.

I'm in the pool of 330 applicants who have one point less than MAX. I'll drop out only when I die, or get too crippled to hike the mountains.

Good luck to the die-hards.

HornedToad
 
Crying over a $100 a pop for the chance at a sheep? I just spent $60 to fill my truck with gas after a day of antelope hunting and scouting for deer. Sheep are one of the most expensive animals in this state to hunt whether you're guided or not. Folks are in the wrong sport if $100 a year is going to break them.
 
Triple_BB good point!

But that $100 is not even going to come into play at all until you are at the top of the point pool. Until that day it is useless. Gas you use to get to work! Not to mention guys who are 40 with 1-4 points are very likely not going to live long enough to reach the top in points - so even if they are willing to spend the $100 a year it would be a complete waste. Just some food for thought.

You are right about the $100, just about anyone can find one or two things elsewhere in their lives to cut back on to have the $$$$. Each has to decide what price they are willing to pay.

Horned Toad, again great info - thanks, saving that for future use, very very insightfull. I will add one thing at some point the 2% drop out rate is going to climb as hunters age to the point they pass away or are simply to old to climb the mountain. I expect to start seeing that in about 10 years.
 
Ok I did the math, I am at the cut of line where $7 points started. I am calculating how long it will take me to be at the top (along with everyone else with the same number of points as me - in other words when the guys with 6 points going into 2006 will be max. point holders.

I figure if half the guys above me drop out with the new price, and 45 draw each year, and 2% give up I should be at the top (again along with everyone else in 15 years (give or take a year).

Sound right? Also does anyone have the break down of NR sheep tags available over the years? Has it changed?

Also there is another huge potential problem, currently WY gives a lot of sheep tags to NR, if they drop this number in a couple years (after sucking us into paying $100 a point) then drop the NR sheep tags to 5% of the total tags or something like that drawing will take much much longer.
 
Triple_BB,
The point we are making is that the $100 fee is not what is seems. The $100 does nothing for you unless you are at the top, or very close. We aren't crying about the cost, rather the benefit. For the $60 you spent on gas, you received a benefit. For those with low or no pref points, we are debating whether there is a benefit to the $100. As of now, I don't see one.

The math on the draw right now is fun, but the whole ballgame is going to change next year. Only 2 1/2 months till tag chasing season!
 
I have a question for those 104 MAX point holders for bighorns in WY who chose last year NOT to apply for a permit, but rather to put in for 'points only'... what are you thinking?

Are you waiting to get another year older?

Are you waiting for WY to change the rules to devalue your points?

Are you waiting for the permit allocations to NR to be adjusted downward?

Or did you pass on WY because you had your dream Marco Polo hunt planned last year instead?

Or perhaps, after eleven years of playing the WY points game, you're questioning whether you are really interested enough in climbing the high Rockies to put up the whole application fee. If so, perhaps the new $100 point fee will cause you to rethink, and perhaps bail out.

Are there any WY MAX point holders on this board? Let's hear from you.

HornedToad
 
Could have easily had other conflicting hunts planned, maybe a baby was due for them or one of their kids, who knows, I love to hunt but can easily see how I might skip a year, well for elk sheep would be tougher.

Good question though.

What % of tags go to NR now?
 
Hate to change the subject a little but, does anyone know if there will be a non-resident "special" pool next year for deer elk and antelope in Wyoming? With the new big fees for points I was thinking that they would drop the "special" licenses and that is why the points are so expensive.
 
For 2006 there will still be a "special" pool (2 tier tag fee). But at a reg. change public meeting last spring one biologist predicted that the 2 tier NR tag cost will be dropped when results of the preference program is fully known.

from the "Heatland of Wyoming"
 
Are all these number just as depressing for wanna-be Moose hunters with 3 points?
 
I have the max sheep points and (I think) 7 or 8 Moose points so I guess I'll have to cough up the application fee. I'd like to put in for the tags this year but with overtime cuts I will have trouble coming up with the $6K for a guide if I draw for sheep.
Barring a lottery win it's probably the only legitimate shot I'll ever have at sheep hunting so I'll have to live with the steep application fees. Some of the other states charge heavy fees with a real longshot on drawing. I do wish Wyoming would change the guide requirement. I will hold out for a non-wilderness area for my moose tag.

Dean
 
Dean there are good sheep outside the wilderness so you do not need a guide, but I sure as heck would not blame you for hiring one on this once in a lifetime hunt.

Keep in mind regs can change at any time - WY could cut NR tags a lot, in other words, try to pull your tag ASAP while you still can. Then worry about paying the guide.

WIth tag in hand and over 6 months till the season I am sure you can find a way to pay, that said good guides might be booked so you might want to look into that ASAP.

Good luck
 
I understand there are areas where guides are not required but the the information I'm hearing/reading is that most of the good sheep are taken from areas 1-5. In those areas the bulk of the sheep country is in designated wilderness. Area 5 is supposed to have sheep outside the wilderness but I haven't heard many reports from there yet.
The guide requirement makes it a pricey proposition- with guide,tag and travel costs you are pushing $9K. I hunt elk every year for 2 weeks for under $900 and hunted Montana Goat for under $1K- total tags/gas/food etc. I'm a do-it-yourselfer who can hunt most of the season if need be- which I'd rather do than follow a guide around.
I'm not expecting a monster sheep from Wyoming and I couldn't care less about B&C scores but since I'll only get one chance at them I want it to be in a very good area. I don't want to throw away 11 years of applying on a marginal unit. Believe me, I do my share of fretting every year when the rule changes come out- waiting for my bubble to burst.
I may take your advice on applying though....and I'd be happy to look into any information/tips on non-wilderness area sheep successes.
Dean
 
I'm a resident of Wyoming for 28 years now. In the 80's, I put in for sheep and drew an area 10 tag on the third try. Harvested a pretty nice ram on a DIY hunt. Sorry guys.

sheep1.jpg
 
Nice Ram!

If I had the chance, I would go as soon as I could. If you start saving now, you could go next year. If you want it bad enough, you can find a way.
 
Wood butcher THAT IS AN AWESOME RAM! More then I can ever dream of if I drew a tag!

Congrat's!

Any chance I can get the whole story?

As for hiring guides, I cannot blame anyone, if there was ever a time I did not have to have a guide and would consider one it would be for sheep.

Man what a sheep!
 

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