Cuacopollo
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Parts of last commission meeting minutes
Full text on Website under commission minutes
Brad Latham: I own Latham Cattle Company and have three ranches, two in McKinley County and one in Cibola County. I was here a couple of years ago and voiced my concern about elk my problem and it's still there. I get tags but those tags are worthless. I don't want to mess with them because you can't market them and also because of the liability issue. I don't want to lose the ranch over some hunter getting shot/hurt on my ranch. I want my ranch left alone, I don't want elk on me, I just want things the way they were 50 years ago. We?ve been told to shoot the elk. We?ve shot them, but hunters have gotten mad and retaliate and shot our saddle horses/cattle. My neighbor lost $40,000 worth of horses because of this. We?re going to have to come up with some kind of plan. It's gotten so bad that a conservation officer and I went to fisticuffs over this, and it cost me a lot of money to get out of it. We?re going to have to do something because I'm sick of fixing fences/feuding with my neighbors.
Chairman McClintic: R.J., are you familiar with this and were you our lead on this?
Brian Gleadle: I did receive a letter from Mr. Latham last week wherein he's requesting some attention to his fence. He does regularly have fence damage. It's a fairly old/tall fence. Previously the Department had provided several options/offers to resolve the issue. It evolved around providing 50/50 cost share to rebuild that fence, get it to where it was more structurally sound, and a height to control the cattle but allow the help to cross without knocking it over. We also discussed putting in elk crossing areas. If we're not going to re-do the entire fence, go into those segments where elk herds continually knock the fence down, modify that fence to lower the bar so elk can get across. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to agree to what it would take between the Department/Mr. Latham to get that resolved.
Chairman McClintic: Mr. Latham, I was on the Commission the last time you appeared at our Commission meeting here in Gallup. Was your proposal to us at that time that you wanted 10 bull tags in a different area?
Mr. Latham: It was so long ago, I don't remember.
Commissioner Arvas: It was.
Chairman McClintic: I don't understand how that would have helped with your elk problem. Give me a solution that's acceptable to the public of this state/you that we can live with to mitigate your circumstances.
Mr. Latham: The State of Colorado has a compensation program to reimburse landowners for what they lose in grass/water/labor. This state needs something like that. For the record, when they introduced the elk in Unit 10, they caused the same problem and that's why they killed them off. Unit 10 is 70%-80% deeded land. All the better water/feed is on that deeded land. Elk are not going to stay in that rough country where there's no water. Last summer was so dry we were infested with elk. We fixed fence every day. I put 10,000 miles on a four-wheeler fixing fence. That's ridiculous. Now my health is bad and I can't work like I used to so I have to hire a laborer. That's $100-$150 a day that comes out of my pocket and I've exhausted all my funds.
Chairman McClintic: I'll make sure that Brian/Department try and figure out a way we can get some satisfaction.
Mr. Latham: As far as the fencing, find somebody to fence. That 50-50 deal I'll tell you I'm not going to go for. They tried that. I had so many days to get that fence up. My health is bad and I can't find nobody to work.
Chairman McClintic: This has been an ongoing issue. I'll make sure that we sit down with you and get this resolved.
Mr. Latham: It causes confrontation with my neighbors. They get mad because my cattle are over there which they shouldn't be, but that fence is good enough to keep my cattle in. He says it's old, which it is, but it's good enough to keep my cattle in and keep the neighbor?s cattle out. That's what it's designed to do. Where my cabin is we can't use that part of the ranch because the elk tear that fence down, the horses get out, and they're going to get hit and I'm going to get sued, so therefore, we never get to use my horse pasture.
Representative Ezell: It doesn't matter whether it's an old fence or not, that fence is doing it's job by keeping his cattle contained. I had the same problem at my ranch. My cattle stay in until the antelope literally tear it down whenever they run through it. There?s a problem that's been going on for two years and that problem needs to be addressed. Director Stevenson, has the problem been resolved that we heard in our House Natural Resources Committee last summer/previous four summers, has that problem been resolved?
Director Stevenson: Not completely. The Department has worked with those individuals that were complaining about elk depredation/fencing issues in the 6-A/6-C area. We?ve resolved several of those complaints to the satisfaction of those landowners. Part of those small landowners that are still concerned about how they're dealt with as far as small contributing ranches in the landowner system we have not been able to get that completely resolved, but we have continued to work with those folks. We?re moving forward with previous agreements as far as fencing issues are concerned and we've also looked at options within the elk formula. If those ranches are providing additional habitat for elk because of their actions on the ground we're making sure to look at the number of permits available as per our elk formula. Brian Gleadle/staff have been working significantly on that. R.J./Jim Lane/staff have been actively dealing with that since that issue came about.
Representative Ezell: Mr. Latham said this has been an ongoing problem for close to two years. We have an ongoing problem for over a year with the deer herds in the Hagerman area. We can go in there and fence all we want to it's up to the landowners to put this fence up. The Department may pay for the materials, but it's still up to us ranchers to put that fence up. What we're effectively doing is moving that problem off to somebody else and we're going to have deal with it. It's not solving the problem so when I get calls from some of my constituents on herds of deer that are moving on to their dairy operations and literally tearing up their ag bags, the threat of spreading disease to the dairy herds, shutting down their dairy herds, literally tearing down sinapivot sprinklers, how do we go about justifying that to the private landowner? When we're talking about depredation that's one thing. We have to get our herds managed because it's private landowners more often than not that feed/water the state?s wildlife. We have to do something to insure a person?s private property rights. Whenever we're talking about a depredation hunt people are concerned that if they participate are they then excluded from the regular hunt?
Tim Frybarger: Yes. If you're in the landowner system and you file a depredation complaint, you don't have a depredation hunt then you're out of the landowner system.
Representative Ezell: That is totally uncalled for. So we stand the chance of losing our entire crop if we chose not to participate in the depredation hunt. If we participate in a depredation hunt, am I hearing correctly, that we will not be able to have the regular hunting season on our property? Director Stevenson, let's not just hold it to antelope in my area, let's do it with elk/deer/pronghorns.
Director Stevenson: It's different and we do those on a case-by-case basis. When we separated depredation from elk landowner system tags, which we did consciously with almost two years of public input around the state that included all ranchers that were in our landowner system, all were contacted directly around. What we had prior to that is when you mix depredation and management of elk on the ground is we got into a situation where we got complaints from landowners just to increase those tags available. In previous Commissions/Administrations we had gone to a system where a lot more tags were being put out on the ground and it was not adequately or any way based on the science of the number of animals that we had what we were trying to accomplish on management. I'd not urge this Commission to combine those together. We need to continue to deal with those. We'll continue to look at resolution through a depredation system both with the legislature and continually within the Department. It's difficult to look at all things equally on the ground, but to try to do that just through hunt management is inadequate as far as addressing those areas because you've got ice cream areas where you could kill every other animal and you're still going to have animals on those irrigated pieces of pasture especially in drought conditions or where green is and those animals are going to migrate to those areas. It's not simply a matter of managing those units to address those specific problem areas. We need to continue looking at that Roswell area and try to decrease that overall population. We?re trapping/transplanting animals, doing depredation hunts to address what you've raised as an issue with antelope, but antelope is different when you're talking about antelope overall. If we come to you voluntarily and ask whether you're willing to have depredation hunters on your ranch we're not excluding you from the antelope season system. We?re looking at that as a regional issue on antelope. That's not the case when we get an individual who wants to claim depredation on a portion of their ranch. We?re doing that as portion so if we're saying yes on the irrigated portion of that ranch you want to claim depredation and we go do that we're actually excluding that if the landowner wants to, we're allowing them to continue to sign up the rest of their properties. That piece of country we're dealing with from a depredation standpoint, if they determine they want to go into that system, currently by Commission rule they are excluded from being able to participate in the regular landowner system.
Representative Ezell: I understand problems with hunters coming on to our ranches, but if they decide to deliberately cut fences to go into an area that's posted for no hunting and they get hurt, I stand the liability of being sued for my entire ranch. That's another problem we're going to have to work out in the legislature. The issues brought up earlier about the open gate access agreement being a private landowner if there are areas the rancher does not want hunted, they do have to be posted. We?re talking about this open gate access agreement, am I understanding this correctly, are we going to have the rules available at the entrance?
Jim Lane: No, it?ll be posted based on the rules that landowner puts on that agreement. Those rules will be posted at the entry of the open gate property. For instance, if you're allowing folks to come on and scout for antelope, your scouting season is one week before, not the week prior to that. Those rules will be posted and it will be the landowner agreement rules.
Representative Ezell: Whenever Director Stevenson is talking about depredation hunts, prior to you taking the reins we found out about a depredation hunt that was taking place in our area the day the hunters showed up. That sits damn poorly with us as landowners. Whenever you're talking about extending seasons on ibex/oryx/bighorn from two to three days, why aren't we taking into consideration the pronghorn hunt because that's a two-day hunt. I'm very encouraged by the common sense this Commission is using moving our hunts back so we don't have spoilage of meat. That's a major concern. I'll visit with you later about the unitization agreements.
Chairman McClintic: I want to defend the Department in a couple of areas that I think you're a little off base on?the first, you act like Mr. Latham?s problems have gone on two and a half years and we haven't responded to them, but you've got to understand we can only offer/do so much. When a man tells us that isn't acceptable, stay off my land, I don't want you to do this, he just said again that he's not accepting our fence offer so we're trying to work outside the box to get something that will calm a lot of his concerns. The last time his offer to us was give me ten, $10,000 bull tags in a different area of the state and we'll call it good. Well, if he has a depredation problem with elk running over his property, us giving him ten bull permits in another area I don't understand how that's going to help his overpopulation of elk. I rode fence for six years of my life so I understand fence probably as well as you understand it. What Brian was trying to get at is if the fence is old and dilapidated there may be areas where wildlife is not knocking the fence down, but they are so old that they have to be repaired and we don't believe it's the Department's responsibility. If we have wildlife damage to that fence, I have no problem trying to figure it out, but to take something that is so old that it's falling down and it's not a wildlife problem and act like it doesn't make a difference, I disagree with you. We work very hard to get these issues resolved.
Representative Ezell: I understand what you're saying, but I've also seen herds hit a new fence and lay it down. In my neck of the woods we also have wind that takes fences out. It did my fence, about a three-mile stretch, that I built less than two years ago. Whenever a private landowner continually has a problem wherever we have open spaces like that, there's no easy solution.
Full text on Website under commission minutes
Brad Latham: I own Latham Cattle Company and have three ranches, two in McKinley County and one in Cibola County. I was here a couple of years ago and voiced my concern about elk my problem and it's still there. I get tags but those tags are worthless. I don't want to mess with them because you can't market them and also because of the liability issue. I don't want to lose the ranch over some hunter getting shot/hurt on my ranch. I want my ranch left alone, I don't want elk on me, I just want things the way they were 50 years ago. We?ve been told to shoot the elk. We?ve shot them, but hunters have gotten mad and retaliate and shot our saddle horses/cattle. My neighbor lost $40,000 worth of horses because of this. We?re going to have to come up with some kind of plan. It's gotten so bad that a conservation officer and I went to fisticuffs over this, and it cost me a lot of money to get out of it. We?re going to have to do something because I'm sick of fixing fences/feuding with my neighbors.
Chairman McClintic: R.J., are you familiar with this and were you our lead on this?
Brian Gleadle: I did receive a letter from Mr. Latham last week wherein he's requesting some attention to his fence. He does regularly have fence damage. It's a fairly old/tall fence. Previously the Department had provided several options/offers to resolve the issue. It evolved around providing 50/50 cost share to rebuild that fence, get it to where it was more structurally sound, and a height to control the cattle but allow the help to cross without knocking it over. We also discussed putting in elk crossing areas. If we're not going to re-do the entire fence, go into those segments where elk herds continually knock the fence down, modify that fence to lower the bar so elk can get across. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to agree to what it would take between the Department/Mr. Latham to get that resolved.
Chairman McClintic: Mr. Latham, I was on the Commission the last time you appeared at our Commission meeting here in Gallup. Was your proposal to us at that time that you wanted 10 bull tags in a different area?
Mr. Latham: It was so long ago, I don't remember.
Commissioner Arvas: It was.
Chairman McClintic: I don't understand how that would have helped with your elk problem. Give me a solution that's acceptable to the public of this state/you that we can live with to mitigate your circumstances.
Mr. Latham: The State of Colorado has a compensation program to reimburse landowners for what they lose in grass/water/labor. This state needs something like that. For the record, when they introduced the elk in Unit 10, they caused the same problem and that's why they killed them off. Unit 10 is 70%-80% deeded land. All the better water/feed is on that deeded land. Elk are not going to stay in that rough country where there's no water. Last summer was so dry we were infested with elk. We fixed fence every day. I put 10,000 miles on a four-wheeler fixing fence. That's ridiculous. Now my health is bad and I can't work like I used to so I have to hire a laborer. That's $100-$150 a day that comes out of my pocket and I've exhausted all my funds.
Chairman McClintic: I'll make sure that Brian/Department try and figure out a way we can get some satisfaction.
Mr. Latham: As far as the fencing, find somebody to fence. That 50-50 deal I'll tell you I'm not going to go for. They tried that. I had so many days to get that fence up. My health is bad and I can't find nobody to work.
Chairman McClintic: This has been an ongoing issue. I'll make sure that we sit down with you and get this resolved.
Mr. Latham: It causes confrontation with my neighbors. They get mad because my cattle are over there which they shouldn't be, but that fence is good enough to keep my cattle in. He says it's old, which it is, but it's good enough to keep my cattle in and keep the neighbor?s cattle out. That's what it's designed to do. Where my cabin is we can't use that part of the ranch because the elk tear that fence down, the horses get out, and they're going to get hit and I'm going to get sued, so therefore, we never get to use my horse pasture.
Representative Ezell: It doesn't matter whether it's an old fence or not, that fence is doing it's job by keeping his cattle contained. I had the same problem at my ranch. My cattle stay in until the antelope literally tear it down whenever they run through it. There?s a problem that's been going on for two years and that problem needs to be addressed. Director Stevenson, has the problem been resolved that we heard in our House Natural Resources Committee last summer/previous four summers, has that problem been resolved?
Director Stevenson: Not completely. The Department has worked with those individuals that were complaining about elk depredation/fencing issues in the 6-A/6-C area. We?ve resolved several of those complaints to the satisfaction of those landowners. Part of those small landowners that are still concerned about how they're dealt with as far as small contributing ranches in the landowner system we have not been able to get that completely resolved, but we have continued to work with those folks. We?re moving forward with previous agreements as far as fencing issues are concerned and we've also looked at options within the elk formula. If those ranches are providing additional habitat for elk because of their actions on the ground we're making sure to look at the number of permits available as per our elk formula. Brian Gleadle/staff have been working significantly on that. R.J./Jim Lane/staff have been actively dealing with that since that issue came about.
Representative Ezell: Mr. Latham said this has been an ongoing problem for close to two years. We have an ongoing problem for over a year with the deer herds in the Hagerman area. We can go in there and fence all we want to it's up to the landowners to put this fence up. The Department may pay for the materials, but it's still up to us ranchers to put that fence up. What we're effectively doing is moving that problem off to somebody else and we're going to have deal with it. It's not solving the problem so when I get calls from some of my constituents on herds of deer that are moving on to their dairy operations and literally tearing up their ag bags, the threat of spreading disease to the dairy herds, shutting down their dairy herds, literally tearing down sinapivot sprinklers, how do we go about justifying that to the private landowner? When we're talking about depredation that's one thing. We have to get our herds managed because it's private landowners more often than not that feed/water the state?s wildlife. We have to do something to insure a person?s private property rights. Whenever we're talking about a depredation hunt people are concerned that if they participate are they then excluded from the regular hunt?
Tim Frybarger: Yes. If you're in the landowner system and you file a depredation complaint, you don't have a depredation hunt then you're out of the landowner system.
Representative Ezell: That is totally uncalled for. So we stand the chance of losing our entire crop if we chose not to participate in the depredation hunt. If we participate in a depredation hunt, am I hearing correctly, that we will not be able to have the regular hunting season on our property? Director Stevenson, let's not just hold it to antelope in my area, let's do it with elk/deer/pronghorns.
Director Stevenson: It's different and we do those on a case-by-case basis. When we separated depredation from elk landowner system tags, which we did consciously with almost two years of public input around the state that included all ranchers that were in our landowner system, all were contacted directly around. What we had prior to that is when you mix depredation and management of elk on the ground is we got into a situation where we got complaints from landowners just to increase those tags available. In previous Commissions/Administrations we had gone to a system where a lot more tags were being put out on the ground and it was not adequately or any way based on the science of the number of animals that we had what we were trying to accomplish on management. I'd not urge this Commission to combine those together. We need to continue to deal with those. We'll continue to look at resolution through a depredation system both with the legislature and continually within the Department. It's difficult to look at all things equally on the ground, but to try to do that just through hunt management is inadequate as far as addressing those areas because you've got ice cream areas where you could kill every other animal and you're still going to have animals on those irrigated pieces of pasture especially in drought conditions or where green is and those animals are going to migrate to those areas. It's not simply a matter of managing those units to address those specific problem areas. We need to continue looking at that Roswell area and try to decrease that overall population. We?re trapping/transplanting animals, doing depredation hunts to address what you've raised as an issue with antelope, but antelope is different when you're talking about antelope overall. If we come to you voluntarily and ask whether you're willing to have depredation hunters on your ranch we're not excluding you from the antelope season system. We?re looking at that as a regional issue on antelope. That's not the case when we get an individual who wants to claim depredation on a portion of their ranch. We?re doing that as portion so if we're saying yes on the irrigated portion of that ranch you want to claim depredation and we go do that we're actually excluding that if the landowner wants to, we're allowing them to continue to sign up the rest of their properties. That piece of country we're dealing with from a depredation standpoint, if they determine they want to go into that system, currently by Commission rule they are excluded from being able to participate in the regular landowner system.
Representative Ezell: I understand problems with hunters coming on to our ranches, but if they decide to deliberately cut fences to go into an area that's posted for no hunting and they get hurt, I stand the liability of being sued for my entire ranch. That's another problem we're going to have to work out in the legislature. The issues brought up earlier about the open gate access agreement being a private landowner if there are areas the rancher does not want hunted, they do have to be posted. We?re talking about this open gate access agreement, am I understanding this correctly, are we going to have the rules available at the entrance?
Jim Lane: No, it?ll be posted based on the rules that landowner puts on that agreement. Those rules will be posted at the entry of the open gate property. For instance, if you're allowing folks to come on and scout for antelope, your scouting season is one week before, not the week prior to that. Those rules will be posted and it will be the landowner agreement rules.
Representative Ezell: Whenever Director Stevenson is talking about depredation hunts, prior to you taking the reins we found out about a depredation hunt that was taking place in our area the day the hunters showed up. That sits damn poorly with us as landowners. Whenever you're talking about extending seasons on ibex/oryx/bighorn from two to three days, why aren't we taking into consideration the pronghorn hunt because that's a two-day hunt. I'm very encouraged by the common sense this Commission is using moving our hunts back so we don't have spoilage of meat. That's a major concern. I'll visit with you later about the unitization agreements.
Chairman McClintic: I want to defend the Department in a couple of areas that I think you're a little off base on?the first, you act like Mr. Latham?s problems have gone on two and a half years and we haven't responded to them, but you've got to understand we can only offer/do so much. When a man tells us that isn't acceptable, stay off my land, I don't want you to do this, he just said again that he's not accepting our fence offer so we're trying to work outside the box to get something that will calm a lot of his concerns. The last time his offer to us was give me ten, $10,000 bull tags in a different area of the state and we'll call it good. Well, if he has a depredation problem with elk running over his property, us giving him ten bull permits in another area I don't understand how that's going to help his overpopulation of elk. I rode fence for six years of my life so I understand fence probably as well as you understand it. What Brian was trying to get at is if the fence is old and dilapidated there may be areas where wildlife is not knocking the fence down, but they are so old that they have to be repaired and we don't believe it's the Department's responsibility. If we have wildlife damage to that fence, I have no problem trying to figure it out, but to take something that is so old that it's falling down and it's not a wildlife problem and act like it doesn't make a difference, I disagree with you. We work very hard to get these issues resolved.
Representative Ezell: I understand what you're saying, but I've also seen herds hit a new fence and lay it down. In my neck of the woods we also have wind that takes fences out. It did my fence, about a three-mile stretch, that I built less than two years ago. Whenever a private landowner continually has a problem wherever we have open spaces like that, there's no easy solution.
