WOLVES OR POACHERS?

[coryb]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-12 AT 11:11AM (MST)[p]Which would you rather have in your state?

Which do you think kill more deer and elk in your state?

Is anyone else sick of hearing people on here supporting poaching of wolves? I know I am and it has me wondering what others think of it. Now before people label me as a liberal or anti let me state that I don't think any animal, including wolves, should be introduced anywhere unless they can effectively and LEGALLY be managed. With that said, I am against the introduction of wolves as it currently stands.

In my home state of New Mexico there is no way that our wolf population comes even remotely close to killing as many deer and elk as poachers. Regardless of this, many New Mexicans feel poaching is OK when it comes to wolves. It is not. If you dislike the wolves take LEGAL action to change it. Most New Mexicans either disregard or don't realize the fact that ALL of the elk we have to hunt in our state are here because of reintroduction. Our native elk, the now extinct Merriams, were completely gone when we started to reintroduce RM Elk trapped in Yellowstone. Some farmers and ranchers were no doubt angry and against this competitive and "invasive" introduction, much like the wolf reintroduction today. However, through proper and LEGAL management we now have an amazing resource that many of us love and enjoy. The same might be the case with PROPER and LEGAL wolf management.

Many claim the wolves are simply an anti tool to take away our hunting. This may or may not be true. I believe that our open support of law breaking poachers is a more powerful tool to damage our cause.

If introduced, wolves need to be managed effectively by hunters and kept in appropriate numbers, just like all of the other game. That being said, I would rather have wolves than poachers in New Mexico, as I believe legitimate management of them is inevitable. Containing poaching will never be possible as some will always think they are above the law or that circumstances prohibit it from applying to them.

I'm sure this will be a controversial post, but let's here what others have to say.

Cory

 

[nmbighorn]

Since we are already dealing with the loss of animals to poachers and game and fish take this into account in the distribution of tags, WE DON'T NEED WOLVES!
Now to deal with the poachers call the operation game theft number, and guess what will happen, we will have neither poachers nor wolves, problem solved.

 

[mozey]

I'm for exporting all the wolves, poachers, antis, and Paul and Vinni to CA and then building a big fence on the border to keep them there. Nothing personal against Paul or Vinni, except that they're so darn good that them being gone would significally increase the herds for the rest of us... ;-)

The way I see it, I'm not going to shed a tear for the loss of any wolf in NM, and if at the same time a poacher gets busted and taken out of the gene pool, that's like a win/win...

 

[bbgellerman]

I have hunted NM twice now and helped on another hunt once. I have spent around 2 months total in one unit. In that time I passed one NM game warden once on the road back to AZ and another time we had a game warden in our camp. He was checking on a elk someone had shot dead right off the road and cut its horns off. I cant believe the lack of presence of fish and game in your state. Here in AZ your pretty much guaranteed to have your licence checked and you will see several officers during your hunts. Maybe if your fish cops made a little better showing you would have less poaching.

 

[1FastGambler]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-12 AT 02:33PM (MST)[p]I empathasize with your stance on poaching, however I strongly disagree with your overall point of view on wolves.

You think that it is inevitable that wolves will be managed legitimately? WRONG. When & where has that ever happened? History does tend to repeat itself.

Comparing wolf introductions to elk re-introductions is like comparing apples to river rocks. One of these two is fit for consumption, one is not. One of these two generates millions of dollars in the state while the other costs millions. Huge difference brother.

Who are you claiming supports poaching? If you are referring to the shooting of mexican grey wolves by someone as being supported, you have a point... to a point.

There have been several slayings of our ungulates where either the entire animal was left to rot or only the head was removed. This type of poaching infuriates me and deserves serious punishment.

Killing a wolf and leaving it to rot in essence is the same as killing a deer/elk/antelope/sheep and leaving it to rot. I know that I should view them as one in the same in this perspective, but I just can't.

Every creature deserves some respect. I get that.

Do you know how many mexican grey wolves existed in NM & AZ prior to March 30th, 1998?

You don't know, nobody knows, but by golly since they weren't seen on a hourly/daily basis they must be endangered, right?

Have you ever been to the Gila? How many days in a row have you been there? How many miles did you cover in a day? How many hours have you spent behind glass on a high spot?

Wolves have always been in this country and probaly always will, even if we all decided to go and try to kill them all, we would not be successful. It's too big, too rugged, and has far too many places for wolves to hide.

Did you know that there are Dozens and dozens more wolves living today in the Blue Range recovery area than FWS claims and/or reports?

Do you know how many mexican wolf breeding centers there are in the US?

How about FOURTY SEVEN! That's right.. 47 mexican wolf breeding centers in the US today.

How many mexican grey wolves are living south of the border? I don't know for sure either, but I am trying to gather some data from the Mexican Gov't just to satisfy my curiosity.

Sorry for the rant...

To answer your question... Wolves or Poachers?

My vote is Neither.

 

[BuckBuster]

The problem is that there will always be poachers. There are too many people in New Mexico that think they have the right to go and kill whatever they want whenever they want. That is a given. Introducing wolves into that scenario only knocks our herds down that much more. Maybe I'm missing something but last time I checked our deer and elk herds were not overpopulating. Personally I think the coyotes and lions do enough damage to deer and elk herds(in Northern NM) and would hate to see another predator brought into the picture.
Just my .02
JB

 

[cosmic_cowboy]

Wolves are the antis tool to elimate hunting, they have no place in NM or any where else in the rockys.And there release in WY, MT, and ID will turn out to be the worst wildlife BLUNDER in US history.If it already isn't.I will kill every wolf I see and not think twice about it,along with wild dogs,coyotes,and lions.And in MY opinion its not poaching. We hunters have spent countless $$ to restore our deer and elk herds over the last 100 yrs.And a bunch of LIBERAL tree huggers shouldnt be alowed to ruin all our conservation work.As for REAL poachers even if caught they don't do anything, a slap on the wrist, we need SERIOUS penalties, financial and mandatory jail time. Of coarse this will never happen because of hardship...bla bla bla, and LIBERAL judges who dont care about our wild life.But get caught killin a wolf....they throw away the key. Just dosent make sense.
THE ONLY GOOD WOLF IS A DEAD ONE !!

CC

 

[NMPaul]

The core of people that are really pushing the reintroduction of Wolves see it as a way to end hunting.
The rest that go along with it is because it sounds good.

Logic is not considered. We do not need another predator out here that will pray on wildlife, ranch stock, and potentially the people that live here. If there is no danger to people why not reintroduce them all over the east and west coast?

I am 100% against wolves in NM and history shows us that the courts are not going to help us remove them. Cory, how would you propose we remove them, because management is a dead end road for hunters. Once established they will never be removed and we will lose any ability to control the numbers.

Example CA. No Mt. Lion hunting allowed. The head of F&G is getting forced out of his job for LEGALLY hunting Mt. Lions in ID.
This is exactly where we are going, do not kid yourself.

Poachers need to be punished 10X more than the are currently and their names published until the word gets out. As mentioned before we need more wardens in the field.
Big fines, Confiscation of all equiment used in the crime (guns, trucks, quads etc....) jail time for repeat offenders.

 

[hank4elk]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-12 AT 09:41PM (MST)[p]I agree with you Paul 100%. This is nothing more than the antis trying to stop an American heritage,and a way of life since the beginning of time. And Mt. lions where not endangered when CA stopped the hunting. Now they are out of control and the deer herds have been decimated. And poachers need to be dealt with in way harsher ways than they have in the past.They are stealing from all of us.Neither is the answer,and open season and bounty on both!!

 

[junior]

This is nothing more than the antis trying to stop an American heritage, and a way of life since the beginning of time.

Thats why everyone should kill on sight! Yes POACH the living Hell out of them! They are nothing but a glorified coyote on steroids.

 

[coryb]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-12 AT 08:48AM (MST) by NMPaul (moderator)[p]1FastGambler

I decided to write this post after reading the "caught the lil pos" thread on here. Everyone that posted seemed to think that the person caught poaching a trophy bull should be punished severely. I agree. It made me wonder how many dislike poaching and how many only dislike poaching if it is a trophy animal.

My intention is only to feed my curiosity and try to increase my understanding. I don't consider that up to no good. It is definitely not to cause problems or force my agenda.

I couldn't agree with your analogy more. It is perfectly in line with my feelings on wolves and poachers. Neither are acceptable and neither should be condoned. I tried to make it perfectly clear that I am against the reintroduction of wolves.

My reference to elk reintroduction was included only to show that I don't think poaching is ok just because the animal is non native. It's not ok to poach our oryx, ibex, or barbary, is it? I agree that there is no comparison to the effects of wolves and elk.

I do not have the ability or the authority to give you either, but I do believe the wolf problem should be handled with both the authority and ability required, though neither currently exist.

I was surprised to see that you were the first on either thread to assume I was up to no good and resort to name calling. I have always respected your opinion on here as you seem to write objective and well informed posts. Based on your data on the NM thread you undoubtedly have more knowledge on the wolf issue than I do. I appreciate you sharing the facts.

I greatly respect your efforts to introduce kids to our sport. This has inspired others on here and is a powerful tool for our hunting heritage. Since you have taken kids into the Gila, I'm curious if you have discussed the wolf issue with them. I am not belittling your good deeds, I truly appreciate them.

Cory

 

[NMPaul]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-12 AT 08:48AM (MST)[p]Cory, someone would be a fool to go on a website and say they would kill a wolf.

I appreciate your well thought out comments and the whole morale dilemma, but, do not ask on this site if they would do something illegal.

I have no problem with a continued discussion on this.

My point on wolves is that you cannot count on politicians and judges to manage wolves. They do not and they have never made decisions based on logic, science and common sense. They are motivated by voters and personal feelings. The best possible scenario is that they are never introduced.

I edited that part of your post, I hope you understand.

 

[wramos]

I completely agree that wolves are improperly managed and should not have been introduced to begin with. In no does that give me the right to poach or condone the illegal actions of another.

I think this draws attention to the hypocrisy in the debate about wolves. We all deride poaching of elk, deer, etc. But when it comes to wolves some are either silent or condone the actions. Just because something is improplery managed doesn't mean it is right to break a law. The most common excuse for poaching i have heard is that the draw system is unfair or poorly managed and since they can't get draw they will just go hunt anyway.

If we don't like the wolves issue, take postive action, join a group, call your representative, run for office yourself but taking illegal action makes us worse than the anti-hunters who, unfortunately, know how to use the system.

 

[junior]

If we don't like the wolves issue, take postive action, join a group, call your representative, run for office yourself but taking illegal action makes us worse than the anti-hunters who, unfortunately, know how to use the system.

Thats all fine and dandy, peaches and cream. But while the sportsman of the country are getting there ducks in a row. Bang, NM looks like Idaho. We all know sportsman are tuff to ban together.

That gives me an idea! I don't see why G&F in all states, wouldn't agree to a simple questionare for those who buy a hunting/fishing license.
Do you support the intro. of wolves? Or any other predator that may pose a threat in the future.

 

[hank4elk]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-12 AT 11:15AM (MST)[p]I do not condone the poaching of any animal,elk,deer,or wolves. But they have to be controlled legally. And if the wolf folks want them reintroduced,try the east and west coasts,as Paul suggested. There are more here in SW NM than they state and way more dispersed than they say.IMHO

 

[coryb]

Paul

I understand your feelings. I agree that only a fool would put on the internet that they would poach.

However, many have come on here and stated the 3 S's of wolves: Shoot, Shovel, Shut up.

This is condoning and encouraging a federal crime and to my knowledge you have not edited this off of any posts. My post condemned such action, yet you removed a portion.

You are the moderator and it's your decision, whether I agree or not.

No hard feelings.

Cory

 

[NMPaul]

Cory, the difference is that your post was provoking someone to possibly state that they would break the law.

If someone chooses on their own to state their willingness to break a law it is on them.

I just did not want this post to go in that direction. carry on.

 

[greatwestern]

This thing is on here as well? Why is that Cory? What's your agenda here? I don't think its simple 'curiosity'

Anyway, like I answered on your other post in the General Hunting forum yesterday:

C.) NEITHER

 

[junior]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-12 AT 06:16PM (MST)[p]Cory,
Why don't you take your question to a couple of (other) cattle/sheep ranchers up north. Make sure your near Idaho/Wyoming border. Ima thinkn you will get a better definition to poaching wolves.

 

[cosmic_cowboy]

Well I have to respond to being called a FOOL.
I'm the one that said I would kill a wolf if I saw one.
I know there are folks on this site that HAVE killed wolves.
And I tip my hat to you.
BIG BROTHER is watching and listening BEWARE! LOL!

CC

 

[outdoorsdude]

on wolves; two wrongs do not make right.

on poachers; they are nothing but thieves- period.

 

[stinkystomper]

This is an easy answer for anyone.

I'll take poachers. 1 poacher may kill a dozen animals illegally every year. On rare occasions you get freaks who kill a few hundred animals a year but we all know thats friggin rare. Secondly poaching is illegal hence we can bust their balls. We can work to cut way back on poaching.

Wolves however are different. They all kill for fun an awful lot. They wast most of what they kill. On average a wolfe will kill 20 big game animals per month at least. Thats a couple hundred big game animals per year for your average wolf. Wolves are protected. Our game wardens allow this sensless poaching in the name of conservation and anyone who attempts to put an end to the poaching wolves do is locked up and fined into the stone age. Wolves, thanks to the conservationists, cannot be controled.

If given the choice between the two I would pick poachers every day.

 

[1FastGambler]

Cory, thank you for responding, I honestly didn't think you would. I suppose that means I might have misjudged your intentions.

I remember reading a thread about wolves where someone said, "If I shoot a Canadian wolf in Montana, how can it be poaching".

Sounds like the above is the type of comment that inspired your post/comments, because this is what ties Rocky Mountain Elk in NM to the Wolves in the Northern Rockies.

New Mexico is different becuase the Mexican Grey Wolf is Indigenous to the Southwest, unlike the Canadian Wolf in the lower 48. Where as the Rocky Mountain Elk are not Native to NM.

Since you are drawing this line in the sand I have come to the opinion that you are either A) strongly supportive of wolves OR B) that you are strongly against poaching any critter.

Either way, you have every right to have your own personal view of the world. After all that's what makes America great. Frustrating to the people on the opposide side of the fence, but great none the less.

For the record I agree that Poaching's Poaching. People that take more than their limit of fish are technically doing the same thing as killing an elk out of season or without a proper tag.

If you want to talk to someone who knows an awful lot about the Mexican Grey Wolf go to the Gila, head towards Snow lake, before you get there there is a ranch on the right (if your coming from Reserve). Stop by and talk to "him". He's been living there year round long before the first captive wolves were released.

I will tell you that I have spent a lot of time in the Gila - (not as much as I'd like...) mainly 16A, 16C, & north end of 16B and I have only been there one time without seeing at least one wolf and I have yet to see one with a collar!! Take that for what it's worth.

On a different note, there are more coyotes in that area than any other place I have ever been. I really wanted to make a trip down this winter to fill the back of my truck with pelts, but didn't make it. I've always wondered if a wolf would come in to a dying rabbit sound on a foxpro. If one did would I shoot it? Absolutely not, at least not intentionally.

I think that predator hunters in general are so afraid of accidentally killing a wolf that they shy away from the areas where wolves live and that is why there are so dang many coyotes. We really need to go thin them out.

Cheers.

 

[mozey]

My question is, if you happen to see a world record "coyote" north of I-40, and you immediately put it out of the State's misery, what, if anything might be the consequences?

 

[HumbledHunter]

People and animals deserve the same treatment. Why can't everyone and everything just live in harmony. As the softer, gentler side to StinkyStomper, I think poachers just weren't hugged enough as children and wolves are mistaken as wild beasts. We know how cute and cuddly they are, they can't possibly as bad as you all make them out to be



Yours truly,
HumbledHunter (stinkystomper's alter ego)
Mormons are Christians too

 

[1FastGambler]

Watching America's wild spaces right now for the first time. This guy is seriously a liberal tree hugger by first impressions.

They are talking about the Grand Canyon and Mexican grey wolves. They are releasing wolf 1049 somewhere in the White Mountains. They caught this wolf as a pup in the wild and took him to a breeding facility in Missouri for several years.

This goofball just said that there are only 40 wolves alive in the wild. What a liar!

I think I'd rather watch bowling on t.v. than this dildous maximus.