SS!
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So you’ve conceded that 90/10 is passing and now it’s time to talk waiting periods?
Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!
- Thread starter jims
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BuzzH
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Where do you come up with this stuff?
Adding a few thousand tags to the resident draw, every year, year after year dramatically ADDS opportunity. Opportunity to draw average-above average pronghorn tags nearly EVERY year in places like unit 62-2 as an example. An additional 10% of tags in units like that would really improve Resident odds dramatically.
We don't need waiting periods, we need more tags in every unit.
Nope! Just saying that if Wyo res want to draw limited tags they will have WAY higher draw odds with more "opportunity" with a waiting period than 90/10! Take a look at my chart! It's pretty reveiling.
I can guarantee that nonres aren't going to raise their hands and give up....all the way through the legislature! It would be interesting if several nonres with high sheep and moose pts joined forces with several lawyers and took this to court.....and won!
I can guarantee that nonres aren't going to raise their hands and give up....all the way through the legislature! It would be interesting if several nonres with high sheep and moose pts joined forces with several lawyers and took this to court.....and won!
BuzzH
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Won what?
Been lots of cry-baby NR's in the past that have tried suing over tag allocations...they lost, every time.
You need to get up to speed Sebastian...you're not even up to the starting line.
Even tougher now, with that liberal bastard Harry Reid standing up for States Rights to manage game within their borders, including discriminating against NR hunters via s. 339
Nope...its already been challenged constitutionally and legislation was written and passed to deny claims of non-residents being discriminated against when it comes to wildlife. S. 339 specifically.
You wont win in court...
S. 339
To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and
fishing activities.
_______________________________________________________________________
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
February 9, 2005
Mr. Reid (for himself, Mr. Baucus, Mr. Stevens, Mr. Nelson of Nebraska,
Mr. Ensign, Mr. Enzi, Mr. Crapo, Mr. Hatch, Mr. Conrad, Mr. Salazar,
Mr. Craig, Mr. Bingaman, Mr. Thomas, and Mr. Kyl) introduced the
following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on
the Judiciary
April 21, 2005
Reported by Mr. Specter, without amendment
_______________________________________________________________________
A BILL
To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and
fishing activities.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the ``Reaffirmation of State Regulation of
Resident and Nonresident Hunting and Fishing Act of 2005''.
SEC. 2. DECLARATION OF POLICY AND CONSTRUCTION OF CONGRESSIONAL
SILENCE.
(a) In General.--It is the policy of Congress that it is in the
public interest for each State to continue to regulate the taking for
any purpose of fish and wildlife within its boundaries, including by
means of laws or regulations that differentiate between residents and
nonresidents of such State with respect to the availability of licenses
or permits for taking of particular species of fish or wildlife, the
kind and numbers of fish and wildlife that may be taken, or the fees
charged in connection with issuance of licenses or permits for hunting
or fishing.
(b) Construction of Congressional Silence.--Silence on the part of
Congress shall not be construed to impose any barrier under clause 3 of
Section 8 of Article I of the Constitution (commonly referred to as the
``commerce clause'') to the regulation of hunting or fishing by a State
or Indian tribe.
SEC. 3. LIMITATIONS.
Nothing in this Act shall be construed--
(1) to limit the applicability or effect of any Federal law
related to the protection or management of fish or wildlife or
to the regulation of commerce;
(2) to limit the authority of the United States to prohibit
hunting or fishing on any portion of the lands owned by the
United States; or
(3) to abrogate, abridge, affect, modify, supersede or
alter any treaty-reserved right or other right of any Indian
tribe as recognized by any other means, including, but not
limited to, agreements with the United States, Executive
Orders, statutes, and judicial decrees, and by Federal law.
SEC. 4. STATE DEFINED.
For purposes of this Act, the term ``State'' includes the several
States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico,
Guam, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and the Commonwealth of the
Northern Mariana Islands.
Calendar No. 85
109th CONGRESS
SS!
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So Wyo res....ask yourself.....Do you want better draw odds to actually draw and hunt quality limited units with a waiting period......... or do you want to stick with the 90/10 plan where your draw odds will almost remain exactly the same?
Bull honky Buzz!!!!!
Holy smokes Buzz, what pipe are you smoking? There are only a handful of quality limited deer and elk tags issued to nonres in the high demand units that Wyo residents are all up in arms about! I've pretty much shown in my charts that draw odds for these tags will only rise 0 to 3%!
As always the case, Buzz can bend, twist, and stretch things to sound good but in reality it is a far cry from reality! The thousands of tags Buzz is alluding to are Chitty low demand tags that most res could care less about and likely end up in the 2nd draw pile.
Nonres tag numbers are so low in quality units that the only feasible way of issuing nonres tags after 90/10 cuts is to combine regular with special draw. That's the only reason someone thought up the wild idea of combining these together with 90/10.
Again, do you want to draw great tags on a more regular basis.....waiting list option....or do you want to continue to grovel waiting to draw these same tags with 90/10?
I know quite a few residents that complain about their neighbor drawing several limited tags while they sit at home or hunt general units!
Bull honky Buzz!!!!!
Holy smokes Buzz, what pipe are you smoking? There are only a handful of quality limited deer and elk tags issued to nonres in the high demand units that Wyo residents are all up in arms about! I've pretty much shown in my charts that draw odds for these tags will only rise 0 to 3%!
As always the case, Buzz can bend, twist, and stretch things to sound good but in reality it is a far cry from reality! The thousands of tags Buzz is alluding to are Chitty low demand tags that most res could care less about and likely end up in the 2nd draw pile.
Nonres tag numbers are so low in quality units that the only feasible way of issuing nonres tags after 90/10 cuts is to combine regular with special draw. That's the only reason someone thought up the wild idea of combining these together with 90/10.
Again, do you want to draw great tags on a more regular basis.....waiting list option....or do you want to continue to grovel waiting to draw these same tags with 90/10?
I know quite a few residents that complain about their neighbor drawing several limited tags while they sit at home or hunt general units!
BuzzH
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BuzzH
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Really Sebastian? So pronghorn units like 64, 68, 73. 74, 53, 55, 47, 48, 67, 62, 59, 50, 69,. (in particular one of my favorites 62-2), 52, 42, are "chitty" low demand units? Resident odds would sky-rocket in those and similar units under 90-10.
How about deer in the LQ areas in the snowy's? Are those "chitty" low demand tags? They're better than that POS tag you bilked a NR out of his points on that you had in 90. 90-10 would significantly improve for the residents applying there.
How about unit 11 for elk, 120, 24, 22, 23 those would also see significant jumps in tag numbers and odds for residents under 90-10.
Get real...not everyone applies for unit 100 elk, 128 deer, and 60 pronghorn.
I want better odds in ALL areas for WY residents...
BrianID
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BuzzH,
You remind me of a politician. Give them an inch and they try to take a mile. Before you were saying the goal was 90/10 split for Moose, goat and sheep. Didn't you say you didn't care about the pronghorn tags? Now you are showing your true ambitions and admitting you want the pronghorn tags as well in the 90/10.
You remind me of a politician. Give them an inch and they try to take a mile. Before you were saying the goal was 90/10 split for Moose, goat and sheep. Didn't you say you didn't care about the pronghorn tags? Now you are showing your true ambitions and admitting you want the pronghorn tags as well in the 90/10.
BuzzH
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Just responding to Sebastian's batchit crazy waiting period idea...and the fact there's more to worry about than one elk, one deer, and one pronghorn unit in the state.
When 90-10 first came up a long time ago...the initial idea was 90-10 for moose, sheep, goat, bison.
But, the NR's and outfitters showed their true colors, as well as a bunch of NR's on boards like this...and I've changed my mind. I think its best to just go after 90-10 across the board...end the whining all at once and solve the issue.
Nearly every other Western State limits me to 10% or less of all their tags...so I may as well get treated like the Residents of those states and keep 90% for our Residents.
Seems only fair.
jm77
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If you go back and read other 90/10 threads you will find that Buzz has advocated for 90/10 DEA for quite awhile and presented a strong case why those species should change too.
BuzzH
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Similar to Idaho you mean?...oh not quite, Idaho has an "up to" 10% rule for NR's.
BrianID
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I've followed his ideas, even BuzzH will admit that he had past posts stating that the goal was 90/10 split for moose, goat and sheep and wasn't targeting deer, elk and pronghorn.
BuzzH
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It happens...BTDT...in MT, CO, NM, AZ, UT....to name a few.
Difference?
I didn't cry about it...I just changed up my goals and expectations.
Some worked, some not so much...no big deal. Money invested for the benefit of wildlife, that many proclaim to care about (as long as they get a tag to run an arrow or bullet through one).
Other wise, its a "waste" of hundred if not thousands of dollars.
SMH.
BrianID
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That is true. Sometimes life isn't fair. Wyoming has been very generous over the years to nonresidents.
BuzzH
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And still will be one of the most generous even IF 90-10 were to pass...
jm77
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I can't imagine you meant this to read as it does, but who knows based on some of your posts lately!
The only way residents get more "opportunity" is with more LQ tags. Period.
Now lets look at bighorn sheep OPPORTUNITY for Wyo Residents.
Currently there is a 5 year wait for bighorn sheep and moose. There have been approximately 140 vs 50 bighorn tags issued to Wyo res vs nonres the past 5 years. That means there would be approximately 25 tags taken from nonres with 90/10 and issued to res.
Now lets say sheep becomes a once in a lifetime tag. That means there would be 140 fewer Wyo res applicants vying for tags each year vs 25 additional chances to draw with 90/10. 140 fewer applicants x 10 years is 1,400 more chances to draw tags vs 250 with 90/10. In 50 years that would be 7,000 additional chances vs only 1,250 with 90/10.
Simply switching over to once in a lifetime for sheep would roughly give Wyo res hunters a 5.6 x better chance of drawing a tag vs taking 1/2 of the available tags away from nonres hunters that have been applying for sheep tags for as many as 25 years!
How many Wyo res need more than 1 bighorn in their lifetimes? How about you Buzz? Draw odds will remain about the same with 90/10 for all big game species but if simply switched to OIL for sheep and moose or waiting periods for other species draw odds will improve considerably for Wyo res!
Currently there is a 5 year wait for bighorn sheep and moose. There have been approximately 140 vs 50 bighorn tags issued to Wyo res vs nonres the past 5 years. That means there would be approximately 25 tags taken from nonres with 90/10 and issued to res.
Now lets say sheep becomes a once in a lifetime tag. That means there would be 140 fewer Wyo res applicants vying for tags each year vs 25 additional chances to draw with 90/10. 140 fewer applicants x 10 years is 1,400 more chances to draw tags vs 250 with 90/10. In 50 years that would be 7,000 additional chances vs only 1,250 with 90/10.
Simply switching over to once in a lifetime for sheep would roughly give Wyo res hunters a 5.6 x better chance of drawing a tag vs taking 1/2 of the available tags away from nonres hunters that have been applying for sheep tags for as many as 25 years!
How many Wyo res need more than 1 bighorn in their lifetimes? How about you Buzz? Draw odds will remain about the same with 90/10 for all big game species but if simply switched to OIL for sheep and moose or waiting periods for other species draw odds will improve considerably for Wyo res!
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Going to OIL for sheep and moose and waiting periods for deer, elk, and antelope dramatically increases draw odds and OPPORTUNITY for Wyo residents that haven't drawn high demand tags. I'm certain that the majority of Wyo res would be excited having a better OPPORTUNITY to draw high demand tags! This can be done without totally switching over to a different bonus/pref pt system for sheep and moose.
Going to OIL for sheep and moose and waiting periods for deer, elk, and antelope dramatically increases draw odds and OPPORTUNITY for Wyo residents that haven't drawn high demand tags. I'm certain that the majority of Wyo res would be excited having a better OPPORTUNITY to draw high demand tags! This can be done without totally switching over to a different bonus/pref pt system for sheep and moose or stripping 1/2 of the nonres limited tags that only slightly increase Wyo res draw odds.
It's also a very simple strategy to increase draw odds and the OPPORTUNITY for Wyo res to draw limited deer, elk, and antelope tags for the same reasons!
Going to OIL for sheep and moose and waiting periods for deer, elk, and antelope dramatically increases draw odds and OPPORTUNITY for Wyo residents that haven't drawn high demand tags. I'm certain that the majority of Wyo res would be excited having a better OPPORTUNITY to draw high demand tags! This can be done without totally switching over to a different bonus/pref pt system for sheep and moose or stripping 1/2 of the nonres limited tags that only slightly increase Wyo res draw odds.
It's also a very simple strategy to increase draw odds and the OPPORTUNITY for Wyo res to draw limited deer, elk, and antelope tags for the same reasons!
BuzzH
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I'm fine with once in a lifetime for the big 5...as long as 90-10 passes too...that gives residents the absolute best chance and most opportunity. That was discussed at the first task force meeting...and likely what will ultimately happen.
wytex
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Not in favor of once in a lifetime for any of our licenses and have voiced that to the task force.
PP sharing has my interested right now and the roll over of resident draw licenses into the NR draw. Put those under allocated right into the leftover draw for all to have a chance at, residents and NR. NR would keep their current allotment but not get the resident rollover.
PP sharing has my interested right now and the roll over of resident draw licenses into the NR draw. Put those under allocated right into the leftover draw for all to have a chance at, residents and NR. NR would keep their current allotment but not get the resident rollover.
jm77
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It's been made clear that the big five going 90/10 will include OIL status for moose, sheep and grizzly. OIL is already in place for mtn goat and bison.
It won't be one or the other.
jm77
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It remains to be seen whether just drawing the tag is OIL, but there seemed to be agreement it would pertain too rams, bull moose and bull bison. I would assume either sex grizzly and mtn goat will stay the same as it is. We will see, but some changes are coming.
BrianID
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If Wyoming switches to 90/10 it will just be comparable to Idaho and Arizona. NM would arguably be more generous to nonresidents because only 84% of the tags go to residents in NM. 10%(mostly Nonresidents) to outfitter welfare and 6% in nonresident pool. Colorado would be by far more generous than Wyoming.
The $$ that nonresident licenses bring to Wyoming is going to take a big hit if 90/10 split happens. Many residents won’t want to pay extra for their licenses to offset the lost $$. Wyoming could double or triple the current nonresident license cost to offset the loss and still sell the 10% every year. That would be another good way to screw nonresidents that have been generously funding Wyoming G&F. It would also contribute to making hunting as a nonresident a rich mans sport.
SS!
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Vacations are not cheap. Don’t kid yourself, when you’re hunting out of state you’re going on vacation.
Luckily there’s no cap on how much money you can make in your lifetime.
highfastflyer
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We like rich men coming to Wyoming to hunt. We don’t get that many here though. Many NR fill their gas tanks full, have a pickup bed full of gas cans and groceries they buy at their favorite Wasatch Front Costco and drive to Star Valley or Big Piney and never spend a dime in Wyoming. Meanwhile I fill up my gas tank in SW Wyoming drive across the state filling up with Wyoming gas and eating in Wyoming restaurants along the way and then stay at a local hotel in Newcastle to go hunting and eating at local restaurants.
The same thing with making up revenue loss of a 90/10. If
full 90-10 was across the board for full priced antlered/horned game, it would be a license revenue loss to the Department of $1,629,634 dollars based on 2020 quotas. (this would assume reduced priced tags stay at current splits, which I'm fine with)
To make up the revenue loss, if we raised every full priced Resident license $10...that would generate $1,486,770.
So....by raising each Resident full priced license sold here by $10 and raising Resident fishing licenses by $3, we would generate $1,709,310. More than enough to cover the license revenue loss for 90-10.
I am sure a vast majority of Residents are going to be on board with the very slight increase to offset a revenue loss in exchange for more hunting opportunity. Your New Mexico idea though is worth pondering. A win-win for both resident hunters and Outfitters. Charge more for Outfitter welfare tags and then lower the price on resident licenses. Hmmmmmm……………….
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I think all of us are a little baffled why outfitters would be all in favor of 90/10? The only thing I can come up with is they are using it for leverage for something else? If outfitters are smart they will take a look at Wyo res draw odds with a waiting periods for all species. I was quite surprised how great draw odds are for Wyo res for very good deer, elk, and antelope units if waiting periods were imposed. Also, Wyo res draw odds increase 5x in the sheep draw compared to the handful of additional tags that will be issued through 90/10.
It's tough to believe that outfitters won't be loosing out with 90/10 if nonres tags are cut in 1/2? I bet outfitters could use waiting periods as a bargaining chip vs 90/10 because draw odds increase dramatically for Wyo res with waiting periods and remain almost the same with 90/10.
If a waiting period was passed and 90/10 dropped it would mean outfitters would not loose a large chunk of nonres clients like they certainly will lose with 90/10, Waiting periods could be a great bargaining chip for outfitters....hint...hint!
It's tough to believe that outfitters won't be loosing out with 90/10 if nonres tags are cut in 1/2? I bet outfitters could use waiting periods as a bargaining chip vs 90/10 because draw odds increase dramatically for Wyo res with waiting periods and remain almost the same with 90/10.
If a waiting period was passed and 90/10 dropped it would mean outfitters would not loose a large chunk of nonres clients like they certainly will lose with 90/10, Waiting periods could be a great bargaining chip for outfitters....hint...hint!
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SS!
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Jims you’ve convinced me!!! I think waiting periods are a great idea. But to really see the effects of them we need to start with a smaller user group than residents. Let’s try it out on the NR draw for elk deer and antelope. You draw a tag no applications or the ability to gather points for 5 years!
After 20 years of this it should be reviewed to see if it’s the right fit for residents.
highfastflyer
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Likely 90/10 will pass on the Big 5 and a waiting period for limited quota licenses.
nfh
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@BuzzH and @jm77
Whats your thoughts on preference points going to a square root system? You apply with 2 points then your name goes in the hat 4 times. I know several outfitters that support it. Reading the the montana forum lots of guys didnt draw with 1 to 3 points. However I was able to draw 2 years in a row with zero points.
Curious to hear your guys thoughts. Is it a better system? Is it more fair? Will it help solve the preference point issue?
I am discussing point creep on sheep/moose
Whats your thoughts on preference points going to a square root system? You apply with 2 points then your name goes in the hat 4 times. I know several outfitters that support it. Reading the the montana forum lots of guys didnt draw with 1 to 3 points. However I was able to draw 2 years in a row with zero points.
Curious to hear your guys thoughts. Is it a better system? Is it more fair? Will it help solve the preference point issue?
I am discussing point creep on sheep/moose
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grosventrehunter
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Jims, if waiting periods are so great why are you begging people to share their points with you? You don't seem to use the same logic you're trying to push onto others. So tell us why you don't wait in line, build your own points instead of asking others to share theirs with you. Hypocrite....
I hope everyone reads this quickly, before jims sends founder an PM to take my post down. Wait for it......
grosventrehunter
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nfh
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I should of been more clear on this. Im just talking about sheep and moose.
Hell no to points on deer,elk and antelope
elks96
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We should go back to random for all tags. No tags at all. For people with points they keep the points and the points give them a statistical advantage but no guarantee. So if you have no points name in the hat 1 time, for 23 points your name in the hat 23 times. Eventually all the points will purge/die out and in the mean time everyone has a shot at every single tag.
elks96
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I have always wondered... Where are all these people that draw tags every year in the top units? I mean seriously, you always hear people complain about not drawing and knowing others who draw every year.
Usually anytime I press people on this issue, they lack knowledge and facts. Had a guy complain to me this year about someone they know constantly drawing a decent lope unit. When we researched it up, I found the guy was drawing a tag that could only be used with 1 mile of irrigated land. He said he had 2 spots to hunt in the entire unit, but that gave he a tag in a good unit and since he archery hunted he usually killed his buck before anyone else even showed up in the unit.
I am certain this happens all the time. A lot of people simply do not understand the draws, how to look at odds, etc. Way too many people rely on apps to calculate odds and never really dig into to see what really happens.
Usually anytime I press people on this issue, they lack knowledge and facts. Had a guy complain to me this year about someone they know constantly drawing a decent lope unit. When we researched it up, I found the guy was drawing a tag that could only be used with 1 mile of irrigated land. He said he had 2 spots to hunt in the entire unit, but that gave he a tag in a good unit and since he archery hunted he usually killed his buck before anyone else even showed up in the unit.
I am certain this happens all the time. A lot of people simply do not understand the draws, how to look at odds, etc. Way too many people rely on apps to calculate odds and never really dig into to see what really happens.
BrianID
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This proposed 90/10 split is just another example of point systems causing problems. I would happily give up all my points in Wyoming to switch to random draw. Even those of you who want the 90/10 split have to admit that it will feel like a scam to the nonresident that have been forking out significant $$ every year to build points in Wyoming.
BrianID
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I think the 90/10 proposal will cost Wyoming more than what you are calculating. If the proposal is passed, then I hope they come up with a good financial plan.
highfastflyer
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Nothing was ever promised or Implied and no guarantees ever were made. Did Utah, Arizona, Oregon, New Mexico give back any money to Non-Residents when they changed their drawing systems? I think we both know the answer to that. Besides, many of those points were purchased for a measly $7 a point. Tag numbers fluctuate up and down every season due to winter weather, predators, drought and a myriad of reasons just as drawing systems change to make it comparable to what surrounding states offer. To think otherwise is just plain foolish.
highfastflyer
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Easy solution. Increase NR hunting Prices so they need to buy a hunting license every year like most Western states require. Problem solved.
LivingTheDream
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I kind of like this idea. I think it would be the only fair way to go back to a true random system.
Unfortunately I dont think it will ever happen due to the money raised through points.
Also, I see NM used as an example a lot, NM has always been random so not a good point example.
Also, Oregon shouldn't be used as an example for anything (though I did have a great hunt there), I dont think anyone says I want my state to be more like Oregon on anything (no offense to anyone that lives in Oregon).
highfastflyer
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It has been a long time but what I remember was they never offered very many Sheep tags to begin with but they cut the NR numbers back to just one tag. A few years later they then changed the system and required all NR to buy a hunting license and at that time I dropped out as it was such a long shot for just one Rocky Mt. Sheep tag and being forced to buy a worthless license I wouldn’t ever use.
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Wyo res biggest complaint is they can't draw high demand limited tags! Some res may not like the idea of a waiting period because they wouldn't be able to draw limited in units that have great draw odds every year and they would have to sit out several years once they draw liminted tags.
One solution to this would be to have a waiting period for "premium limited units" for deer, elk, and antelope that are the toughest tags in Wyo to draw. A baseline of 10 or 20% draw odds could be set and all units that are tougher than that to draw would have waiting periods.
Wyo res would then still have the opportunity to apply for tougher draw "premium units" with waiting periods or they could select regular units that wouldn't have waiting periods in place.
A waiting period for "premium units" would provide residents WAY better draw odds than 90/10. I can pretty much guarantee that "Premium high demand units" are going to become tougher and tougher to draw as more nonres move to Wyo! This may be a simple solution without going to a pref/bonus pt system.
Plain and simple 90/10 only SLIGHTLY increases a Wyo res chance of drawing deer, elk, and antelope tags, cuts nonres opportunity in 1/2, and is a horrible idea for outfitters and WG&F revenue!
One solution to this would be to have a waiting period for "premium limited units" for deer, elk, and antelope that are the toughest tags in Wyo to draw. A baseline of 10 or 20% draw odds could be set and all units that are tougher than that to draw would have waiting periods.
Wyo res would then still have the opportunity to apply for tougher draw "premium units" with waiting periods or they could select regular units that wouldn't have waiting periods in place.
A waiting period for "premium units" would provide residents WAY better draw odds than 90/10. I can pretty much guarantee that "Premium high demand units" are going to become tougher and tougher to draw as more nonres move to Wyo! This may be a simple solution without going to a pref/bonus pt system.
Plain and simple 90/10 only SLIGHTLY increases a Wyo res chance of drawing deer, elk, and antelope tags, cuts nonres opportunity in 1/2, and is a horrible idea for outfitters and WG&F revenue!
highfastflyer
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Plain and simple, 116 moose, sheep, bison and goat tags would now go to Resident hunters who would now get the opportunity to hunt them. Nonresident licenses will be on par as with most Western states, no more residents sacrificing and giving away Resident opportunity. Going to 90/10 will have little impact on the Big 5 for Outfitters as most outfitters only get one or two hunts a year anyways and many Residents now hire guides on Sheep and Goats as it takes so long to draw a license and most just don’t have anymore the horses, pack equipment and knowledge of the areas the Guides can provide.
Buzz you are absolutely right that it's about Wyo res OPPORTUNITY!
How many Wyo res complain about their neighbors drawing several high demand limited tags while they strike out year after year? Wyo res are complaining that they can't seem to draw limited tags and don't have the OPPORTUNITY to hunt these units very often. 90/10 will virtually do nothing...nodda, 0 for Wyo res that want to draw premium limited units. Yes, there may be 1 or 2 additional premium unit tags available but their OPPORTUNITY to draw them only improves 0 to 3% in these units with 90/10. Their draw odds increase significantly more with waiting periods!
The OPPORTUNITY to draw high demand limited tags increases dramatically with waiting periods for premium tags vs 90/10. This also WON"T affect OPPORTUNITY of res to draw tags or hunt general deer and elk units each and every year like a pref/bonus pt system.
Wyo res OPPORTUNITY to DRAW premium limited tags are pretty much meaningless with 90/10 since so few nonres tags will be issued in high demand limited units. OPPORTUNITY will significantly increase for res to draw premium tags in high demand units with waiting periods.
How many Wyo res complain about their neighbors drawing several high demand limited tags while they strike out year after year? Wyo res are complaining that they can't seem to draw limited tags and don't have the OPPORTUNITY to hunt these units very often. 90/10 will virtually do nothing...nodda, 0 for Wyo res that want to draw premium limited units. Yes, there may be 1 or 2 additional premium unit tags available but their OPPORTUNITY to draw them only improves 0 to 3% in these units with 90/10. Their draw odds increase significantly more with waiting periods!
The OPPORTUNITY to draw high demand limited tags increases dramatically with waiting periods for premium tags vs 90/10. This also WON"T affect OPPORTUNITY of res to draw tags or hunt general deer and elk units each and every year like a pref/bonus pt system.
Wyo res OPPORTUNITY to DRAW premium limited tags are pretty much meaningless with 90/10 since so few nonres tags will be issued in high demand limited units. OPPORTUNITY will significantly increase for res to draw premium tags in high demand units with waiting periods.
jm77
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There are only so many tags and voodoo doesn't change that. Opportunity doesn't increase with points or waiting periods; it shifts. More tags or less hunters are the only ways to increase opportunity.
Don't hold your breath on there being less hunters.
BuzzH
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Wyoming resident hunters are asking for 90 percent of the tags they're entitled to...real simple.
BrianID
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So you want nonresidents to be treated the same way Oregon treated you as a nonresident?
The sad thing is we are all fighting each other instead of putting more effort into habitat and other issues the animals are facing. Just think what could happen if BuzzH put as much effort into a buffer zone as he is in the 90/10 split.
BrianID
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The only things any of us are entitled to are our god given rights such as life, liberty, freedom of speech, right to defend ourselves, etc.
It has been well established that states have the right to manage wildlife so technically nonresidents are not entitled to hunt at all in Wyoming. It doesn't change the fact that it is a scam to charge nonresidents hundreds or in many cases thousands of dollars for points and then change the rules on them.
It is too bad that state laws on managing wildlife are not absolute. I would much rather have Wyoming managing the Grizzly bears and wolves for the last 30 years than being micromanaged by the Feds.
BrianID
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That isn't the only way to increase the number of tags for residents. You could also do a 100-0 split. You don't seem to care about nonresidents anyway so why not just keep all the tags for residents.
The best way to increase the amount of tags for residents (and nonresidents) is to improve the herds. If Wyoming increased the moose and bighorn population, that would be good for everyone.
Wyo res want a better chance to draw high demand premium limited tags. This definitely WON'T happen with 90/10! Elk units like 100, 16, 30, and 31 elk draw odds will basically stay the same with 90/10. Draw odds for deer units like 128, 30, 31, 87, 89, and 90 will also basically stay the same. Antelope units like 58, 60 , 61, 64 draw odds will barely improve with 90/10.
Wyo res currently have incredible draw odds and plenty of opportunity to draw as many big game tags as their freezer will hold! As a prime example, Buzz has 8 to up to 12 big game tags in his pocket this year!
Draw odds for Wyo residents would greatly improve with waiting periods... Waiting periods could easily be limited to only premium units that are super difficult to draw. Res would have the opportunity to either apply for premium units with waiting periods or regular units without waiting periods.....plus would have the option to hunt general elk or deer if they don't draw a limited tag. Even with premium unit waiting periods they could still apply for regular units or buy general tags. There are a lot of options that likely haven't even been discussed by the Task Force that benefit Wyo residents.
For the few premium demand tags that Wyo res are complaining about....90/10 WON"T improve their draw odds. 90/10 won't do anything...0....nothing to improve res draw odds for these units!
If Wyo res want a better chance to draw premium tags a waiting period would be a great solution. There are so many negatives with 90/10......ask the outfitters and nonres hunters that support 77% of the WG&F license sale revenues!
Wyo res currently have incredible draw odds and plenty of opportunity to draw as many big game tags as their freezer will hold! As a prime example, Buzz has 8 to up to 12 big game tags in his pocket this year!
Draw odds for Wyo residents would greatly improve with waiting periods... Waiting periods could easily be limited to only premium units that are super difficult to draw. Res would have the opportunity to either apply for premium units with waiting periods or regular units without waiting periods.....plus would have the option to hunt general elk or deer if they don't draw a limited tag. Even with premium unit waiting periods they could still apply for regular units or buy general tags. There are a lot of options that likely haven't even been discussed by the Task Force that benefit Wyo residents.
For the few premium demand tags that Wyo res are complaining about....90/10 WON"T improve their draw odds. 90/10 won't do anything...0....nothing to improve res draw odds for these units!
If Wyo res want a better chance to draw premium tags a waiting period would be a great solution. There are so many negatives with 90/10......ask the outfitters and nonres hunters that support 77% of the WG&F license sale revenues!
treedagain
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We are so proud of you Buzz, we know your the one to push it thru. I am sure Uncle Pat will thank you tonight.
Your the man Buzz! I can tell you are so excited that the Task Force has screwed nonres that have devoted years to applying for sheep and moose....and supported the WG&F paying high pref pt fees! The legislature is where it all happens so hopefully nonres are willing to pile on the concerned comments!
The burning question....what do outfitters want in exchange for supporting 90/10 for the Big 5?
The burning question....what do outfitters want in exchange for supporting 90/10 for the Big 5?
treedagain
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Pretty crappy for those with high points.
BuzzH
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Those with high points should have burned them already...I did.
treedagain
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Your our hero Buzz.
Cahunter805
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As a NR I just don’t get it when someone says this change “Screws” non residents that have points. I understand there will be less tags available for us NR but preference points aren’t a guarantee for anything and also nobody is forcing anyone to buy them.
GeorgeE
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You’re…There, fixed it for you!!! Good for WY!
treedagain
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I meant zero.
grosventrehunter
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Well if the great state of Wyoming is going to adopt 90/10 because that's how some of the other states are doing it, then I wish they would also follow the leader by adopting their other regs like allowing for tag returns with point reinstatement and having reasonable dates / results for the nr elk draw!
BuzzH
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Didn't come up...need to keep on pounding on the commission for that change to happen.
We lost 2 commissioners that really wanted to do away with the one shot.
We'll get there...only takes two things: time and pressure. Its a marathon...
Myself and a couple other guys (mule creek, JM77, etc.), have been successful getting several major changes passed in the last 10-15 years that many said, "would never happen"...
BuzzH
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Won't happen on the NR elk draw dates being earlier...there's several reasons that was changed (good ones), and myself and JM77 pushed that and got it passed.
Don't have to have earlier draw dates, just push back the app deadline to a reasonable timeline.
jm77
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This^ will probably be discussed at some point.
Cahunter805
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Just curious. What’s wrong with point sharing? Anyone can choose to buy points or not. If a person buys points and wants to share them why should they not be allowed to do so?
highfastflyer
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What was intended as a good family style point sharing program for parents and family members to share their points with children or other immediate family members being able to all go hunting together as a pool, has turned into an internet Scheme and fishing expedition for gullible suckers to give up their hard earned points by fraudsters, hucksters and those who will walk, climb, or crawl over anyone to scheme their points away from them. It needs to be reined in and restrictions placed upon it. Amazing what shenanigans have been pulled in order to cut in the cue or jostle to gain better position in a long line. It’s time to fix the BS and get back to its true roots and well intended purpose.
highfastflyer
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Well, you know those Colorado and Utah hunters might get lost or heaven forbid eaten by a Grizzly bear or wolf which they don’t have that threat. LMAO.
Ask the hunters I’ve shared hunts with if they’ve had amazing trips and harvested totally awesome bucks. Similarly ask anyone that has shared hunts with Founder if they’ve had incredible trips and harvested Muley bucks of a lifetime. If you asked hunters that shared these experiences if it was worth it the resounding reply would be yes!
There are always a few bad apples that may take advantage of a system. Point sharing is only available for nonres and it’s a great way to share hunts with family and friends.
There are always a few bad apples that may take advantage of a system. Point sharing is only available for nonres and it’s a great way to share hunts with family and friends.
DH56
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I'm a non resident and hunted Wyoming since the 1990's. After my 1st hunt there I was so taken back by the country I returned many times. Had great times and hunts and many great memories and memorable hunts. Back then, there were no points just apply and get drawn based on availability of tags.
20 years or so ago, Points came into play with some species I believe and I started to buy moose points and then some elk and deer points. I missed some years but in general I wanted to try and get a few hunts in when I retired. I usually hunted Mule Deer and antelope, but have accumulated points for Elk and Moose. 18 for Moose and 7 Elk.
I just retired. I have a few years left to hunt....hopefully. If the 90/10 falls into play, I will figure out what my options are. In reality I have been thinking about this for a couple of years with point creep etc.
I have no control on how Wyoming Game and Fish or any other state on when they make changes. It is what it is. If I get fortunate to hunt the two species I wanted to hunt when I retire in one of my favorite states to hunt, it would be nice, but I also have known it may not happen. I had a great time and have great memories.
We as hunters should always support each other in whatever way we can. It's a great sport, and when I started hunting and trapping as a 13 year old, it was a game changer for me and my direction in life. I have been fortunate to live in one of the best states in the country for Whitetails and Turkey hunting is pretty good as well. Loved hunting small game as well and still do.
My last comment on this is that we all should get as many youths involved in the sport and allow as many opportunities as possible for everyone to hunt. We don't want to go down the path that many countries in Europe and elsewhere have gone where only a select few have the opportunity.
20 years or so ago, Points came into play with some species I believe and I started to buy moose points and then some elk and deer points. I missed some years but in general I wanted to try and get a few hunts in when I retired. I usually hunted Mule Deer and antelope, but have accumulated points for Elk and Moose. 18 for Moose and 7 Elk.
I just retired. I have a few years left to hunt....hopefully. If the 90/10 falls into play, I will figure out what my options are. In reality I have been thinking about this for a couple of years with point creep etc.
I have no control on how Wyoming Game and Fish or any other state on when they make changes. It is what it is. If I get fortunate to hunt the two species I wanted to hunt when I retire in one of my favorite states to hunt, it would be nice, but I also have known it may not happen. I had a great time and have great memories.
We as hunters should always support each other in whatever way we can. It's a great sport, and when I started hunting and trapping as a 13 year old, it was a game changer for me and my direction in life. I have been fortunate to live in one of the best states in the country for Whitetails and Turkey hunting is pretty good as well. Loved hunting small game as well and still do.
My last comment on this is that we all should get as many youths involved in the sport and allow as many opportunities as possible for everyone to hunt. We don't want to go down the path that many countries in Europe and elsewhere have gone where only a select few have the opportunity.
LivingTheDream
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Did they say how they would implement OIL? Is that just for non residents or residents as well?
Sorry I missed this part.
SS!
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Cahunter805
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Any individual has the right to choose to buy points. What they do with them should also be their choice. For the record I believe the majority of party apps are family and friends using them as you think they are intended for.What was intended as a good family style point sharing program for parents and family members to share their points with children or other immediate family members being able to all go hunting together as a pool, has turned into an internet Scheme and fishing expedition for gullible suckers to give up their hard earned points by fraudsters, hucksters and those who will walk, climb, or crawl over anyone to scheme their points away from them. It needs to be reined in and restrictions placed upon it. Amazing what shenanigans have been pulled in order to cut in the cue or jostle to gain better position in a long line. It’s time to fix the BS and get back to its true roots and well intended purpose.
I’m sure there will be a lot of NR with points for the sheep/moose that are now going to have to make a choice on what to do with them given the 90/10 passing unanimously by the task force and most likely passed by legislature also. Maybe some NR quit, maybe some choose a ewe hunt, maybe some keep building points in hope of a tag one day but it’s all a choice by that individual what to do with their points they purchased with their own money.
grosventrehunter
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The issues I have with it is you have hunters steadily buying points to someday hunt, but are routinely passed over by lower point holders due to point sharing. Not to mention having non-hunting family and friends buying points so that you can use their points to hunt more often.
I applied with a friend in SD this year. I had 6 points and he had 3. They take the lowest point holders point count and thats it. We didn't draw and I'm perfectly fine with that. Seems pretty fair to me since those that had been steadily buying points waiting their turn drew with 4.
BuzzH
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Yes.
They moved bull bison to once in a lifetime draw like the rest.
Anyone who has drawn a moose or sheep, and is in a waiting period once in a lifetime will be retroactive.
I'm in that category with sheep, and testified in favor of that change...the big 5 need to be OIL.
I'll slip in with being able to apply for moose again as I currently have 2 points.
I'm OK with that as well.
Cahunter805
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You also have hunters that may have the same or less points than the person sharing who now may draw their tag earlier since a person with more points than them is no longer in the pool.
If I wanted to spend my money on points for a non family member and spend my money on a tag that won’t be used isn’t that my choice?
SD uses bonus points and squares them. You could have been drawn since you only need 2 points to be in the pool. Also you could have chose to apply with your 6 points, drawn a tag and have your friend still come on the hunt. Heck maybe he even gets a doe tag or two and you guys have a fun hunt together. Learn the area together and maybe he draws next year and you guys go back again and have another fun hunt together.
Rsully661
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Damn bud you are proving to be a class act with each and every post! Why should anyone be forced to use a damn guide, which most of them come in from out of state to do the guiding and don’t know half of crap. The guide welfare in hunting has gotten out of control and it’s absolutely WELFARE at its current state. Leaching off the damn system and wanting more handouts. Pathetic!! Also I’d like to point out the game is not owned by any one states citizens but is the property of every American. States are only to manage the game. Yet the non residents pay for it damn near all. So I guess you can keeping on your welfare ticket with the 90/10 split.
lostinOregon
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Does Wyoming have legislative sessions every year or every other year? I am wondering about implementation date. If the recommendations from the group go to the legislature for approval, how fast will they be able to turn it around and make it law?
Rich
Rich
grosventrehunter
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Of course it's your choice, however, you asked why and I answered. You have no problem with non-hunting family and friends buying points? Do you have an issue with anti-hunters apply for tags that will never hunt too? They both have no intention on hunting.
Well we didn't draw SD. Not sure what is going on since I haven't had time to check the draw odds yet. All I know is I received an email stating such.
SS!
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You’re assuming I’m for the wilderness law which I am not.
If whining is scalable to outdoor aptitude most you guys should have guides for pronghorn.
Cahunter805
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I respect your opinion. I never said I didn’t have a problem with it. I said it’s their choice if they want to spend their hard earned money that way or not. I have heard of antis trying to draw tags also and not sure what to think of it to be honest.
SD is a state that I also build points in and will someday apply. I always buy points though.
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BuzzH
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Every year, this year is general session where this bill will likely pass. It will be implemented in 2023...meaning you have 1 more under the current system. Apply accordingly.
jm77
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This is not only gaming the system, it takes a tag away from a hunter who would come to Wyoming and use it.
I don't see how you think that's ok.
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Cahunter805
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Jeff
I never said I thought it was ok. Personally I never would do that. Have I paid for my dads points when he forgot/couldn’t. Sure.
Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters
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We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.
