Wyoming Guides can No Longer Scout for Outfitters???

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Your going to fight this all the way. Whatever they say you can get by with then more laws will keep being added to stop you financially gaining in wyoming
 
nfh said:
Your going to fight this all the way. Whatever they say you can get by with then more laws will keep being added to stop you financially gaining in wyoming
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Michael, they don't need any more laws to stop him. They have him already and he knows it. The only way he can sell his packages is with individual bucks attached and he will have to do that under the table, illegally.

This guide thing is all a big fat red herring.
 
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Better update your 2020 package


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Hey Founder, I don't agree with what you do, but if your "sale" or "barter" happens outside the State of Wyoming (I think I read you live in Utah?), I am not sure if the law holds any force. I would look into that a little deeper. But of course, I am NOT an attorney, so do your own research and take your own chances.
 
If I'm a judge and I read this thread, it tells me without a doubt that your actions are intended and premeditated. Fully knowing that you knew the law and chose to act outside of what is acceptable. That would mean you're going to be an example. Is that really worth it? Or should you just move on to a different cookie jar cause this one is busted?
 
These outfitters are like wolf packs, they fight for the food but when threatened they act like a pack and defend each other.
 
Just another part of the outfitter welfare that the state gives to the outfitter. No hunting in wilderness area without a guide/outfitter
BUT you can fish , bird watch, hike, horseback trips etc.
Only hunting is banned for all nonresidents.

I do think they are going to find a way to keep that law and Founder deal is only reason they add this law to HELP/Aid the outfitters welfare
Now residents are happy because they can still hunt the wilderness areas without a high price outfitter.
 
Puts a damper on finders fees. I say intellectual property rights can be sold just like anything else that's privately owned.
 
Slightlysober said:
It’s an analogy tx. I knew you Texans have thin skin but wow! Guess I shouldn’t expect anything less from a high fencer.
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No, you were equating Founder to a drug dealer. And you just proved my point. You don’t know me from Adam, but because I called you out, instead of debating the idea, you say something derogatory about Texas and me.

Nice that Founder now has the ignore feature.
 
txhunter58 said:
No, you were equating Founder to a drug dealer. And you just proved my point. You don’t know me from Adam, but because I called you out, instead of debating the idea, you say something derogatory about Texas and me.

Nice that Founder now has the ignore feature.
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Goodbye!!
 
PLK said:
Lostinoregon,

Don’t you agree that the intent of the new rule was to keep unlicensed outfitters and guides (such as Founder) from being able to sell or barter any geographical location of a big game animal.....

Perhaps you could expand upon your previous post. Thanks
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Yes I do. The legislative intent was to stop what founder was doing. Not what licensed quides are doing. It doesn’t matter what anyone on this post thinks the law means. I expect that if founder continues to do what he is doing, because he thinks it should apply to guides also, he will be cited this year.

Rich
 
lostinOregon said:
Yes I do. The legislative intent was to stop what founder was doing. Not what licensed quides are doing. It doesn’t matter what anyone on this post thinks the law means. I expect that if founder continues to do what he is doing, because he thinks it should apply to guides also, he will be cited this year.

Rich
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100% agree, that’s why I have questions. The law says “No person....”. Fine, but I too would expect an outfitter will be allowed to pay someone to scout in some way. The question is, what does it take to be exempt from being one of the “No person...”.
Numerous rules begin with “No person....”, none of them have exceptions for guides, so I don’t think having questions is ridiculous. I’m just looking to abide by the law.
 
Wait, I thought you were only doing this to help pay for expenses to and from Wyoming so you can scout for you and your new hunting "friends/buddies".
 
Not sure why you think he "deserves" anything from the state of Wyoming. Follow the law and there won't be an issue. We all know why this law was written so founder just needs to deal with it. He can still mooch all of his "new hunting buddies" points as of this year. If founder just wants to see DIY guys kill big deer like he claims stay in Utah and provide his scouting service there. Hell, he could even do it in Colorado, Idaho, Nevada or Arizona if he wants.
 
Founder said:
If that's the case, then so be it. I'm just trying to figure out what is and isn't legal. From the Game and Fish I'm looking for solid answers, not just opinion. If being employed by an outfitter makes it OK to scout and provide them with locations of game, then I'll work that direction if need be.
If that's your opinion, what about a resident "guide"? Are they exempt too do you think?
I know who the law was written to stop, but you'd sure think there'd at least be a few in the system who are about doing things fairly and not just doing things to make outfitters happy.
If the law exempted guides and outfitters, why wouldn't that have been written. I was told by the F&G officer today that NO ONE was exempt, but he wasn't 100% sure either on it all.
I asked him, "how would someone know who is or isn't exempt by reading the statute or rule?" (as above) I didn't get anything firm. He's going to get back with me.
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hi founder
1) is the outfitter you mentioned about the law being made for Mossback? LOL! I’m sure that outfit would be very PO’d
2) it sounds like the vague description of the law is to allow at lot of latitude when it comes to enforcing the law on a case by case basis. Just like insurance policies.
3) don’t take a G&F officer word on a law that is complexed like this. Talk to a lawyer. ask Hawkeye I’m sure could break it down
 
Looking for loop holes and reasons that you should be allowed to do things that almost no one agrees with is a little gross. Glad that’s not me.
 
I would rather see a big buck live another year than sell it to someone else. This has been going on for years with you, if you want to be a guide or outfitter have at it, I’m sure one of the outfitters would pay you well for your talents.Everyone in the hunting business knows what your doing, its almost like you want to be famous for your achievements,when you could have kept quiet and gone about your business. I like this website and the men and women who interact on here. So maybe you can answer this question. Why does a liberal always want to change the laws to fit his needs?
 
Seems like Founder can get his guide license in Wyoming and then sign an employment contract with his regular outfitter customers to cover expenses for base salary. Any results produced during the contract period will be compensated based upon the quality of information produced.

If he wants to operate as an outfitter and sell DIY hunt areas to clients, just get outfitters license and have at it.

Seems pretty simple to me?
 
Or Founder could start a hunting consulting service with his outfitters license and guide license. Then he could share his inventory with other outfitters and sign a consulting contract and then be paid for services rendered.
 
Homer said:
if a guy works at a gold mine to find gold....for the mine owner and gets a paycheck to do it....did he sell gold to the mine owner??
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Ding ding, a winner. The government owns the animal (mineral) rights, and wants anyone digging there to pay the ROYALTY. There's the kings deer again.

IMO, I see nothing wrong with what you are doing. The state just wants their cut. Being a licensed contractor doesn't make you a better contractor, it just says you took the test and paid the state your fee. And probably the consultant who gave you the answers to the test.

I pity the people who can't scout. It's the best part of the hunt. :)
 
Buxndiverdux said:
Or Founder could start a hunting consulting service with his outfitters license and guide license. Then he could share his inventory with other outfitters and sign a consulting contract and then be paid for services rendered.
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That’s my question to G&F. If I have a guide license, will I be ok to specifically scout for an outfitter without any trouble?
Second, could I scout for an outfitter under a sub-contractor agreement or must I be employed. Like I’ve said, numerous rules say, “No person shall....”. None of the others allow exceptions for guides in any way. So, how can one simply “assume” that this one does without confirmation?
 
lif said:
Looking for loop holes and reasons that you should be allowed to do things that almost no one agrees with is a little gross. Glad that’s not me.
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Not looking for loopholes, just facts.
 
Founder said:
That’s my question to G&F. If I have a guide license, will I be ok to specifically scout for an outfitter without any trouble?
Second, could I scout for an outfitter under a sub-contractor agreement or must I be employed. Like I’ve said, numerous rules say, “No person shall....”. None of the others allow exceptions for guides in any way. So, how can one simply “assume” that this one does without confirmation?
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If you get a guide's license you could scout, guide, pack, skin, set up camp or do anything related to outfitting and guiding for the outfitter as an employee or as an independent contractor, for an agreed upon wage. Either way you will be treated like an employee of the outfitter you work for.

If your contract or agreement pays you a fee exclusively for game animal locations, you are breaking the law.

Now go do, that voodoo, that you do, so well!
 
If you would have just done your gig kept it low and under your hat you would have never had a problem. Now you will be trying to defend yourself in wyo forever.
This is getting ridiculous!
 
Like I’ve
jm77 said:
If you get a guide's license you could scout, guide, pack, skin, set up camp or do anything related to outfitting and guiding for the outfitter as an employee or as an independent contractor, for an agreed upon wage. Either way you will be treated like an employee of the outfitter you work for.

If your contract or agreement pays you a fee exclusively for game animal locations, you are breaking the law.

Now go do, that voodoo, that you do, so well!
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That’d be great clarification if it were from someone who could actually write a ticket. As much as I enjoy hearing a hundred different opinions, there’s only a couple that’ll put my mind at rest.
But I’d guess you are at least close to accurate.
The G&F guy said he’d read through some stuff I sent and give me some direction. I believe he’ll be honest with me.
 
Founder said:
Like I’ve

That’d be great clarification if it were from someone who could actually write a ticket. As much as I enjoy hearing a hundred different opinions, there’s only a couple that’ll put my mind at rest.
But I’d guess you are at least close to accurate.
The G&F guy said he’d read through some stuff I sent and give me some direction. I believe he’ll be honest with me.
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I know the guy that writes regulation for G&F and this was written broadly for a reason. All regulation goes through the lawyers before it's sent through the public process and then the Commission. You are given zero latitude to get around this unless you get licensed and even then you have to play by the rules.

The multiple posts on this board were not helpful to your cause. Neither was the fact that selling big buck locations leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. This is what I was told.
 
jm77 said:
I know the guy that writes regulation for G&F and this was written broadly for a reason. All regulation goes through the lawyers before it's sent through the public process and then the Commission. You are given zero latitude to get around this unless you get licensed and even then you have to play by the rules.

The multiple posts on this board were not helpful to your cause. Neither was the fact that selling big buck locations leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. This is what I was told.
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They definitely wrote it broadly using that same “No person shall.....” for this rule that most feel has exceptions for guides, while other rules on trail cams, flying, etc. beginning with “No person shall....” don’t have exceptions for guides. They all begin with, “No person shall....”, but one of them doesn’t really mean “no person”.
Like I said, even with a guides license, I’d sure want to know for sure what I can or can’t do.
 
IMO, this has gotten to the point of it not being worth the effort to sell some locations to a buck, whether its "legal" or not.

Having to get a guides license, getting various interpretations of the law, wondering if you're breaking the law, possibility of going to court, lawyer fees, and on and on and on.

Wouldn't be worth my time...but I guess if your time isn't worth anything...
 
BuzzH said:
IMO, this has gotten to the point of it not being worth the effort to sell some locations to a buck, whether its "legal" or not.

Having to get a guides license, getting various interpretations of the law, wondering if you're breaking the law, possibility of going to court, lawyer fees, and on and on and on.

Wouldn't be worth my time...but I guess if your time isn't worth anything...
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That’s for sure an opinion. I’ll gather information and facts and go from there. I’ve been scouting lawfully for 4 years, I’m confident I’ll be fine going forward. I certainly won’t be trying to break any laws.
I don’t think getting a guides license is all that big a deal. Who knows, maybe I’ll take up guiding someday. I’ll bet I’d be good at it.
 
saddlesorerider said:
(d) No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
I agree with Notdonhuntings remark about Eastmans, Hunting fool, and Epic. They all give more than unit info. They give area specific locations in their magazines and consulting services when you call them. I talked to both Epic and Huntinfool before applying for NV and Utah this year. They are certainly selling this info as it's part of their service when they sell you the magazines.
It's a slippery slope and First Amendment Rights.

And just because Founder sells me the area where he saw a 400 in bull doesn't mean the bull will be there three weeks from now unless he tied it to a tree.
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I guess phones and satellite communication devices have a 3 week delay?
 
Founder said:
That’s for sure an opinion. I’ll gather information and facts and go from there. I’ve been scouting lawfully for 4 years, I’m confident I’ll be fine going forward. I certainly won’t be trying to break any laws.
I don’t think getting a guides license is all that big a deal. Who knows, maybe I’ll take up guiding someday. I’ll bet I’d be good at it.
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Then why dont you just go and guide??? Would be a lot less headache and i bet you would make more money with guiding then you do with yourscouting business
 
Founder said:
Like I’ve

That’d be great clarification if it were from someone who could actually write a ticket. As much as I enjoy hearing a hundred different opinions, there’s only a couple that’ll put my mind at rest.
But I’d guess you are at least close to accurate.
The G&F guy said he’d read through some stuff I sent and give me some direction. I believe he’ll be honest with me.
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I'd get it in writing. The WLH approach of a phone call might not be so successful in Wyoming
 
Geko42 said:
Then why dont you just go and guide??? Would be a lot less headache and i bet you would make more money with guiding then you do with yourscouting business
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An outfitter won't take kindly to his contracted guides running a side hustle to gain himself point sharing.

Like FOUNDER said, dudes pay top dollar. They are going to demand his time, and his top animals, yearly. He could hunt with other guys, but his hunting for himself would be over. Not lots of vacation hours for guides during seasons.
 
Geko42 said:
Then why dont you just go and guide??? Would be a lot less headache and i bet you would make more money with guiding then you do with yourscouting business
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I can't speak for anyone but for myself:

I would doubt if anyone here has a stronger hunting gene than I do. I think about hunting multiple times a day and am constantly thinking about next years hunt in the mountains. Others have seen that in me and said "why don't you be a guide". The reason I don't is because then it becomes work. I fear it would become just like chores and I will lose the enjoyment. Instead of being excited when the alarm goes off, I would dread it. An obligation and not an escape. I suppose there are guides that never lose the fun even though they guide for many years, but I doubt that would be me. Bottom line is I have seen what they have to do and it is hard work! I just want to be sure I don't lose that enjoyment and excitement each time I go out
 
txhunter58 said:
I can't speak for anyone but for myself:

I would doubt if anyone here has a stronger hunting gene than I do. I think about hunting multiple times a day and am constantly thinking about next years hunt in the mountains. Others have seen that in me and said "why don't you be a guide". The reason I don't is because then it becomes work. I fear it would become just like chores and I will lose the enjoyment. Instead of being excited when the alarm goes off, I would dread it. An obligation and not an escape. I suppose there are guides that never lose the fun even though they guide for many years, but I doubt that would be me. Bottom line is I have seen what they have to do and it is hard work! I just want to be sure I don't lose that enjoyment and excitement each time I go out
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oh man this is gold! Classic Texan full of himself.
 
Geko42 said:
Then why dont you just go and guide??? Would be a lot less headache and i bet you would make more money with guiding then you do with yourscouting business
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What I’d prefer is just the scouting part. If that could work, that’s what I’d rather. That’s why I want to get my questions answered about this rule. It’s hard to try and work something out with an outfitter when I don’t even know the exact facts. On the face, the rule sounds just like the flying rule, or the others I’ve mentioned that have NO exceptions for licensed guides. So why would I automatically assume this one does? Does that make sense?

Anyway, I might would like guiding. My problem is, I might get frustrated with guys who don’t get after it quite as hard as I do. I have much energy.
 
Here are 4 rules that state "No person shall....". Why would anyone automatically assume that any of them would have an exception for a licensed guide or anyone else unless it specifically states an exception?

No person shall use any aircraft with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any game animal from August 1 through January 31 of the following calendar year. Additionally, no person shall use any aircraft to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any trophy game animal during any open season. Nothing in this Section shall apply to the operation of an aircraft in a usual manner where there is no attempt or intent to locate any game animal, such as aircraft used for the sole purpose of passenger transport.

No person shall use any device attached to a legal firearm, muzzleloader or archery equipment, capable of producing a thermal or infrared image, or other imaging outside the normal visible light spectrum, with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.

No person shall use any real-time video photography equipment, real-time thermal or infrared imaging device, or other real-time imaging device outside the normal visible light spectrum, capable of automatically transmitting an image, picture or video for remote viewing, with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.

No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
 
That’s why I don’t understand the thought that anyone is exempt.

And if an employee is exempt where does it say only an outfitters employee? Most of my employers have told me what they wanted done. Do guides now days just do what they want while on the payroll during the summer, or do they still get directions from their employer?

Which makes me think if an employee is exempt, which it doesn’t specify, and it doesn’t specify what type of employee. Than if while on the payroll I could tell my boss where I saw whatever I saw. Whether I am classified as a guide etc.

My buddy is a lawyer. I’ll run it by him to see how he interprets it. He is just a criminal lawyer. Which from reading it sounds like a lot of guys think you are founder lol
 
DirtyTough said:
My buddy is a lawyer. I’ll run it by him to see how he interprets it. He is just a criminal lawyer. Which from reading it sounds like a lot of guys think you are founder lol
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Like a said "constant entertainment". :LOL:
 
Or just screw with WYOGA and post pics and coordinates of big bucks right here on the site. They can't stop you from GIVING away info. You'd have all the good spots climbing with people every year.

You'd be taking one for the team, but at least you'd be screwing with WYOGA too ?
 
grizzly said:
Or just screw with WYOGA and post pics and coordinates of big bucks right here on the site. They can't stop you from GIVING away info. You'd have all the good spots climbing with people every year.

You'd be taking one for the team, but at least you'd be screwing with WYOGA too ?
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1000% they would write a new law next year outlawing giving away locations for free.

Let's call this out for what it really is: Lawmakers protecting the special interest group called the WYOGA.
 
Founder will never admit to the wrong doing but what he is basically doing is killing off the gene pool of the better bucks and feeling no shame to his fellow sportsman, our deer herds all across the west are under managed and then you have people like founder trying to make a quick buck off of them! He even admits that he doesn’t plan on being able to get a tag in the future!
 
Slightlysober said:
No let’s call it what it really is, the state trying to combat unethical and questionable tactics in the thirst to kill big mule deer
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I am curious on your position on NR's needing a guide in Wilderness areas. That law is to protect Outfitters 10000% so it is not a stretch to believe additional laws are written to benefit the Outfitter$.
 
Savage110 said:
I am curious on your position on NR's needing a guide in Wilderness areas. That law is to protect Outfitters 10000% so it is not a stretch to believe additional laws are written to benefit the Outfitter$.
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I think it’s a BS law. I would like to see it changed to only people from UT needing a guide in wilderness areas. I’d hate to see Founder lose half the topics on MMs.
 
bigshotca said:
Founder will never admit to the wrong doing but what he is basically doing is killing off the gene pool of the better bucks and feeling no shame to his fellow sportsman, our deer herds all across the west are under managed and then you have people like founder trying to make a quick buck off of them! He even admits that he doesn’t plan on being able to get a tag in the future!
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LOL compared to how many guides and outfitters in that area? Let alone unlimited residents. I've seen numbers posted that 4000-7000 residents hunt there every year. You are going to say one person selling scouting packages is killing off the gene pool?

I must of missed the sarcasm emoji.
 
Buckjunkie said:
Capitalism. It’s a beautiful thing most of the time.

Founder puts in the work and sells information. The problem isn’t Founder, it’s the guys wanting to cut corners by buying a location of a big buck or paying for a guide.

Everyone wants the success, but they don’t want to put in the research and hard work. That creates opportunity for someone to make a dollar.

I only wish that there were two record books. One for guys that put in the time and one for guys who buy a buck.
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Maybe those guys who "buy the buck" are in fact putting their time in at what they do best...making money to afford to "buy the buck?" Its all how you look at it I suppose?

I know very little, if anything at all about this whole debate. My only issue as a whole is, govt continues to regulate " free-market capitalism, and freedom of choice", simply because some complain about how its done. Be careful lobbying the govt to interfere in private enterprise, it could be you they regulate / eliminate next! JMO!
 
jm77 said:
I know the guy that writes regulation for G&F and this was written broadly for a reason. All regulation goes through the lawyers before it's sent through the public process and then the Commission. You are given zero latitude to get around this unless you get licensed and even then you have to play by the rules.

The multiple posts on this board were not helpful to your cause. Neither was the fact that selling big buck locations leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. This is what I was told.
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That right there is the issue Founder...a law like this is only as clear as the LEO / prosecutor interpreting it, as indicated by the gentleman above. Personally I don't like that...those who've taken "ethics in the law" know better, but its the hand they dealt!
 
Well Eastmans and Hunting Fool "sell info" about geographic hunting locations are they going to be out outlawed too?
 
Globalhunter said:
Maybe those guys who "buy the buck" are in fact putting their time in at what they do best...making money to afford to "buy the buck?" Its all how you look at it I suppose?

I know very little, if anything at all about this whole debate. My only issue as a whole is, govt continues to regulate " free-market capitalism, and freedom of choice", simply because some complain about how its done. Be careful lobbying the govt to interfere in private enterprise, it could be you they regulate / eliminate next! JMO!
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Globalhunter have you noticed that guys like yourself that “buy the buck” always have game violations on their record? Just a coincidence huh....
 
Globalhunter said:
Maybe those guys who "buy the buck" are in fact putting their time in at what they do best...making money to afford to "buy the buck?" Its all how you look at it I suppose?

I know very little, if anything at all about this whole debate. My only issue as a whole is, govt continues to regulate " free-market capitalism, and freedom of choice", simply because some complain about how its done. Be careful lobbying the govt to interfere in private enterprise, it could be you they regulate / eliminate next! JMO!
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Not to change the subject or pile on, but the truth is interjecting "free market Capitalism" into wildlife management will be the ruin of hunting as we know it. Set-aside and auction tags already take opportunity away from the regular hunter, who up to this point has carried wildlife on his/her back through the North American Model.

Globalhunter, every regulation on the books goes through the public process. We get to scrutinize the regulations and turn a thumb down or up. This isn't the fist of government coming down on us. This regulation was discussed at the Conservation Roundtable meeting comprised of hunting, conservation and yes outfitter groups all together in a room. Take a guess on how many groups supported it? By far the majority agrees with regulation or it would have been defeated at the Commission level. Oh, at the roundtable support was unanimous.
 
Savage110 said:
Give up the goods, what game violations does he have on his record? Maybe it's time we institute backround checks for MM members.
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Enough threads on it already. Use the search function. He did his time...
 
“Not to change the subject or pile on, but the truth is interjecting "free market Capitalism" into wildlife management will be the ruin of hunting as we know it. Set-aside and auction tags already take opportunity away from the regular hunter, who up to this point has carried wildlife on his/her back through the North American Model.“

Hate to burst your bubble but “free market capitalism” is already the rule for wildlife depts, at least where NR tag prices are concerned.
 
txhunter58 said:
Hate to burst your bubble but “free market capitalism” is already the rule for wildlife depts, at least where NR tag prices are concerned.
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Nope, your statement is not supported by the number of people who apply for tags and do not get them.
 
Bookhead said:
I just wanna clear one thing up if your selling locations to a DIY hunter that hunter is no longer DIY. Think about it
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What level of information or help do you have to receive to no longer be considered an ethical or dyi hunter? A friend giving you info? A friend of a friend? A friend helping you pack in/out with horses? Subscription to a magazine that helps you out? Info from a biologist? Paying for a friends tag in trade for a tag along? Paying for info from a stranger? Subscription to onX with all the help they provide. 1 or 2 good buddies tag along for your hunt and help out? 10 family members tag along on a premium hunt to enjoy the hunt with you? Hiring a guide or outfitter? Using long range equipment? Using high powered optics? This is just a short list of things, but you get the point.

Honest questions. I’m really getting confused of what I can and can’t do to be an ethical dyi hunter.
 
Slightlysober said:
Globalhunter have you noticed that guys like yourself that “buy the buck” always have game violations on their record? Just a coincidence huh....
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You are a joke.
There is plenty of game violations across the board from guys that are on food stamps throughout the Middle class and all the way to multi millionaires.

LittleBull said:
What level of information or help do you have to receive to no longer be considered an ethical or dyi hunter? A friend giving you info? A friend of a friend? A friend helping you pack in/out with horses? Subscription to a magazine that helps you out? Info from a biologist? Paying for a friends tag in trade for a tag along? Paying for info from a stranger? Subscription to onX with all the help they provide. 1 or 2 good buddies tag along for your hunt and help out? 10 family members tag along on a premium hunt to enjoy the hunt with you? Hiring a guide or outfitter? Using long range equipment? Using high powered optics? This is just a short list of things, but you get the point.

Honest questions. I’m really getting confused of what I can and can’t do to be an ethical dyi hunter.
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The self appointed ethical police will let you know when you are no longer as ethical as they determine.
I have read some awful judgemental threads on this site but this one might just be the worst. All in the name of ethics.

So let me get this right it is no longer OK to question a new law to get clarification and if you do question a law that means you are planning on breaking the law.
Kind of sound like the Face book Corona Nazis.
 
notdonhunting said:
You are a joke.
There is plenty of game violations across the board from guys that are on food stamps throughout the Middle class and all the way to multi millionaires.
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Never said there wasn’t game violations across the board. Globalhunter and his cronies all have game violations. It appears to run more rampant in the circle he’s in. But if you read what I typed you’d know that.

Let’s get this to 200!!!
 
Founder,

you are focused on the guides when you should be focused on what you are doing. The law is a direct result of your conduct. it’s like telling the state trooper that everyone speeds, so you shouldn’t get a ticket when he just stopped your for speeding. That defense has been tried over and over with no luck. What everyone else does, including guides has no bearing on what you can legally do. None what so ever. I can’t understand why you have not contacted fish and game and ask them for an opinion on what you can do, maybe you have and are waiting for the answer. I wouldn’t take the lemon approach and call someone that might not be a decision maker, or a bunch of people to get the information you want. I would go as high as you could to get clarification. Once you get that information, you could make a choice on what you want to do. Even then if won’t matter what the guides are allowed to do. The legislative intent was to stop you from doing what you are doing. The legislative intent was not to stop guides from taking clients hunting. Good luck,

Rich
 
Founder said:
No. I have no problem with outfitters and completely understand why they wouldn't want competition. I've worked for an outfitter while at the same time helping DIY hunters while the outfitter was lobbying to outlaw what I was doing with the DIY guy. For some of us, just because we differ on opinions doesn't mean we're bitter enemies wanting the other dead. I don't live in that world.
My OP is simply questioning a rule. A rule that is bundled with 3 other rules, and none of the 4 have listed any exceptions. So my question is simply, how do I or a guide or anyone know who is or isn't exempt from those rule(s)?

Three of them say "No person....".

Section 20. Use of Specialized Hunting Technologies and Equipment.
(a) No person shall use any device attached to a legal firearm, muzzleloader or archery equipment, capable of producing a thermal or infrared image, or other imaging outside the normal visible light spectrum, with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(b) No person shall use any real-time video photography equipment, real-time thermal or infrared imaging device, or other real-time imaging device outside the normal visible light spectrum, capable of automatically transmitting an image, picture or video for remote viewing, with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(c) A trail camera, or similar device, that can only store an image, picture or video inside the device, and which does not have the capability to automatically transmit images in real-time, is permissible for use in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(d) No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
Click to expand...
I see what you are doing founder you are keying in on the word "person" so in another words you are saying It could be anybody....... In a court of law you might have an argument but if you do get what you want it will be only for one year and they will change the verbiage so you can't do it again......

They do not want you to do what you do and will make more laws to stop you....
Guides license is going to be the only way you can proceed with your business venture...

Just my opinion for what it's worth.....
 
The only thing that is going to save you is to find one of the left leaning circuit judges like the Wolf Radicals did, to tie things in court for a couple of years.You should really be guiding Governor Tag holders if your as good as you think you are, you can make big money, get paid to scout all year long, tips are really good also and you could have a big poster of yourself hanging up at the Hunt Expo!
 
These things IMO cross the lines of fair chase.

I don't know that Founders current scheme does. As others have pointed out there is a time lapse. But only today. As Founder pointed out, it's a race to cash. If his competition starts to cut that lapse, he will be forced to as well to compete. It will end with real time info.

With technology developed now, it could very much end with GPS "painting" that deer. A LR dude shooting GPS guided bullets from miles away.

We all know that while it sounds unbelievable, all those technologies are out right now, and it WILL come to our sport.

Yes. I include guides treeing cats and then calling a client to come from town and shot them.

Yes include guides "sitting" on animals.

Yes I include finders fees.

Yes I include that full scale search and rescue job that happened on Spider Bull.

None of those are Fair Chase.

I care less about the guide Association. As in every other state it's the "professionals" that keep pushing the envelope in that drive to convert antlers into cash. Which eventually filter to the sport.
 
LittleBull said:
What level of information or help do you have to receive to no longer be considered an ethical or dyi hunter? A friend giving you info? A friend of a friend? A friend helping you pack in/out with horses? Subscription to a magazine that helps you out? Info from a biologist? Paying for a friends tag in trade for a tag along? Paying for info from a stranger? Subscription to onX with all the help they provide. 1 or 2 good buddies tag along for your hunt and help out? 10 family members tag along on a premium hunt to enjoy the hunt with you? Hiring a guide or outfitter? Using long range equipment? Using high powered optics? This is just a short list of things, but you get the point.

Honest questions. I’m really getting confused of what I can and can’t do to be an ethical dyi hunter.
Click to expand...
I never said anything about ethics so i dont know where you're getting that from. It's pretty easy to understand you can't be a diy hunter if your not doing it yourself.
 
This is like a bunch of pimps arguing over turf. No offense intended of course. I lost track, who has the biggest hunting dong? :rolleyes:
 
I blame flatbrimmer Insta hero-hunters. If it weren't for them, there would be no need to worry about locating and selling the draw a 221" mule deer is hanging out in.
 
About the only thing I've gotten out of this thread is some people are complete assholes, have no integrity or morals, yet seem to throw their integrity and moral arguments into the faces of everyone else.

Edited before someone tries to claim I'm being hypocritical, nope, I'm an *******. This thread needs to die.
 
Last edited:
dack77 said:
About the only thing I've gotten out of this thread is some people are complete assholes, have no integrity or morals, yet seem to throw their integrity and moral arguments into the faces of everyone else.

Edited before someone tries to claim I'm being hypocritical, nope, I'm an *******. This thread needs to die.
Click to expand...

Good luck with that, considering who the guy is that started this thread....
 
RookieWYhntr said:
They should make illegal to pay for such service as well. That will do this in. Banned from hunting for 5yrs and $10K fine.
Click to expand...

I'm going to have to respectfully but strongly disagree with that. That continues down a slippery slope and has the govt too much in my business.

What would be next, outlawing swap hunts? I do a lot of those and have made lifelong hunting buddies that way.
 
txhunter58 said:
I'm going to have to respectfully but strongly disagree with that. That continues down a slippery slope and has the govt too much in my business.

What would be next, outlawing swap hunts? I do a lot of those and have made lifelong hunting buddies that way.
Click to expand...
Sorry to break the news, but it is already illegal to hire someone for guide or outfitting services unless they have a license. But I'm glad you were respectful about it.
 
jm77 said:
Sorry to break the news, but it is already illegal to hire someone for guide or outfitting services unless they have a license. But I'm glad you were respectful about it.
Click to expand...

But only when those services are offered in consideration of monetary exchange. A buddy can help a buddy for free all they want...
 
We got some unethical guides/sub-guides/so called "scouts" around my neck of the woods out there almost every day following the bucks/bulls/rams. I know one of these assholes. Wife, kids, has a job, but if he isn't working, he's out "scouting" his home, hearth, kids and wife be damned. Property is fricken toilet. This ****-bird has no compunction about doing what it takes to make a buck off of a buck. He's been investigated and is being watched, but you cannot put your miniscule LE capabilities on just one dirt bag.

That law that founder is looking into, as I mentioned before, is practically unenforceable. Almost like shed hunting season. You can go out and locate, mark and/or hide those antlers, then go pick them up when the season opens. Or as many do, phk the law and just collect them. How is law enforcement going to catch these people selling GPS locations or marked maps, unless some disgruntled client rats them out or they're nailed in a sting?
 
Its a simple concept. Anytime your making money off of state or federal property like big game animals (they are property of the state) they are going to want their piece of the pie. Go get an outfitting license and pay your dues like eveyone else does that legally makes money off of the state or government property quit trying to cut corners.
 
Ropinfool said:
outfitters are ruining hunting for the average hunter. I've never had much respect for any of them.
Click to expand...

I can think of one in particular. Acted like he owned the unit I was hunting in my own state. His wife (ex now I believe) had a tag as well, but nobody was allowed to hunt anywhere close to where he was...

He and and his wife were both NR and he is a "famous" rock star outfitter.
 
Bookhead said:
Its a simple concept. Anytime your making money off of state or federal property like big game animals (they are property of the state) they are going to want their piece of the pie. Go get an outfitting license and pay your dues like eveyone else does that legally makes money off of the state or government property quit trying to cut corners.
Click to expand...
I disagree. I should be able to write a book telling about all my adventures, telling where I’ve hunted and where I saw wildlife. I’ve asked before without answer, name one thing in this country that’s illegal to talk about and divulge location other than a deer in Wyoming?
It’s stupid beyond stupid. They can’t make a law against children saying horrible things about other children and bullying them to suicide, but they can stop someone from publishing where he saw a deer.
 
roadrunner said:
But only when those services are offered in consideration of monetary exchange.
Click to expand...
Did you even bother to check that?

"(a) No person shall directly or indirectly compensate a person holding himself out as engaging in the business of or acting in the capacity of an outfitter or a professional guide unless that person provides proof that he is a licensed outfitter or professional guide as required by this act."
 
Founder said:
I disagree. I should be able to write a book telling about all my adventures, telling where I’ve hunted and where I saw wildlife. I’ve asked before without answer, name one thing in this country that’s illegal to talk about and divulge location other than a deer in Wyoming?
It’s stupid beyond stupid. They can’t make a law against children saying horrible things about other children and bullying them to suicide, but they can stop someone from publishing where he saw a deer.
Click to expand...
Loop holes. Loop holes. Loop holes. Weird way to live. It seems to me that when a human chooses to interact with other humans he should probably be considerate of what the others think. I think this thread is proof that most folks that share the mountains with you don’t agree with what your doing. Why would you want to pursue that life? Get a license and play the game. You’re just a player in the game. You’re not bigger than the game.
 
jm77 said:
Did you even bother to check that?

"(a) No person shall directly or indirectly compensate a person holding himself out as engaging in the business of or acting in the capacity of an outfitter or a professional guide unless that person provides proof that he is a licensed outfitter or professional guide as required by this act."
Click to expand...

Did you even bother to read my post? A buddy can help a buddy for free anytime they want. And, for consideration (payment) of monetary exchange means directly - physical presence, or indirectly - self guided drop camp.
 
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