Wyoming Pref. Pts. to 2012

HornedToad

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Wyoming Game and Fish will soon post its table of Preference Points (PP) going into the 2012 Draw, but here is an early look at the numbers for Non-Resident Bighorn Sheep, along with a prediction of the median year in which each point class could expect to draw.

Listed below are (A) Number of Preference Points, (B) Number of Non-Res. Sportspersons, (C) Predicted Median Year to Draw, and (D) change from prediction of previous year:

(A) (B) (C) (D)

01 1150 2047 na
02 691 2045 (0)
03 538 2043 (0)
04 520 2041 (0)
05 494 2039 (0)
06 422 2037 (0)
07 418 2035 (0)
08 480 2033 (0)
09 527 2031 (0)
10 526 2028 (0)
11 509 2025 (0)
12 473 2023 (0)
13 168 2020 (+1)
14 146 2018 (+1)
15 122 2016 (+1)
16 110 2014 (+1)
17 27 2013 (+1)

The Median Year can be thought of as the average year in which a person in a given PP class could expect to draw. Half would draw before the median while half would draw after. In general, those drawing earlier than the median will be applying in secondary (or less in demand) units, while those drawing later will be applying in primary (or most in demand) units.

The Predicted Median Year to Draw is based on a model that includes a number of assumptions, including (a) that the number of permits offered in the Non-Resident preference point draw remains constant at the current level, and (b) the annual attrition rate in each PP class (those dropping out of the draw) remains consistent with the average of the previous three years. Obviously, if either of these assumptions are off, the predicted years to draw would change measurably.

The annual attrition rates assumed in the above model remain significant. For example, the attrition rate for the top five point classes (13 thru 17) averaged 5.3% annually over the past three years, while for the second cohort (8 thru 12) the average was 6.1%, and for the lowest point classes (2 thru 7) the average was 13.6%. Continuation of these attrition rates implies that most sportspersons holding 12 or fewer points will eventually drop out of the process before drawing a permit. For example, of the 473 persons holding 12 points going into the 2012 draw, the model predicts that 225 will eventually draw permits, while 248 will not.

The MAX PP class, holding 17 points going into the 2012 draw, has been reduced to 27. There were 32 MAX point holders going into the 2011 draw. Of these, only 6 applied for a permit, with 4 being selected. One person dropped out. At this rate, it could take another five to six years before all of the MAX point holders are eliminated, with most of the permits being drawn by those currently holding 13 to 16 points. This ability to continue drawing preference points (presumably, as long is one is alive to do so) illustrates the difficulty of predicting the year in which any one PP class "clears out" to make way for those following. Clearly, there will be a great deal of overlap in the draw schedules of the various point classes.

Finally... I hope that the slight early release of this information does not cause anyone to torque out. No one should expect to gain any advantage through a review of this information.

Good luck to all in the 2012 Draw.

Horned Toad
 
Thanks HT. Do you have an inside man at WYG&F? Just wondering if the # of sportsperson is nuts on so I can update my spreadsheets before seeing the "official" report? :)

"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
Yes... the numbers of Non-Resident sportspersons going into the 2012 Bighorn draw should be good.

There are 573 remaining sportspersons in the five highest points classes (17 thru 13). My model predicts that 464 of these will eventually draw permits, while 109 will drop out of the draw process. This will take about nine years, so it should be about 2021 before those in the lower points classes (12 and below) begin drawing permits in the preference point draw.

If you're young enough to wait that long... hang in there, and you will draw a bighorn permit!

HT
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-11 AT 10:22AM (MST)[p]Thanks again HT.

I'm 32 with a fair amount of points. I should still be able to hunt when I'm 50. Even better, my boys will be in their early 20's so they can be my sherpas :)

"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-11 AT 10:24AM (MST)[p]Thanks for the info it's always helpful.

I'm a NR with 14 points, according to this I'll be 56 when I draw. older than I'd prefer but what are you going to do. of course the unit chosen and choices of the higher point guys will play a factor so maybe sooner.

Has there been anyome talk of changing the points quota vs the random quota ? I remember that questionaire a year or two ago. that would poke a sick in our spokes.
 
Thanks for the info HT, I hope you're right. Do you know what caused the estimates to increase +1 for the high point holders?
 
The + means fewer drew/dropped out than assumed. I would guess that more high point nonresidents are stacked up trying to draw the few units with stable ram populations outside the wilderness and you will see the median year to draw continue to go up in the upper point pools.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-11 AT 09:05PM (MST)[p]The +1 increase in the Median Year to Draw for the higher PP classes (12 thru 16 going into the 2011 draw) is the result of an adjustment to the model to account for protracted draw periods for the highest point classes. A partial explanation for this is the stacking of permit applications from these classes in two or three of the perceived best units, but a more significant reason is the large number of potential applicants who continue to purchase points even after they are in a position to draw a quality unit.

For example, there were 32 sportpersons entering the 2011 draw with the MAX of 16 points. Of these, only 6 applied for permits, with 4 being successful. Of the 26 who did not apply, 1 dropped out, leaving 25 to join the 2 unsuccessful applicants as 27 sportspersons with a new MAX of 17 points to enter the 2012 draw. My model predicts that 26 of these will eventually draw a permit, while 1 will drop out, with a median draw year of 2013 for the successful applicants. This means that the 13th of the 26 permits received by this group will be drawn in 2013, which is difficult to justify when only two members of this group participated in the 2011 draw. So, who knows how many more years will be required for the MAX point holders to run their course?

The assumed attrition rate in the model is not the cause of the +1 year extension. There were 659 sportspersons within the five highest point classes (12 thru 16) entering the 2011 draw. This group drew all of the 54 permits available in the preference point draw, as had been predicted, leaving 605. The model predicted that 26 of these would drop out of the draw, when in fact 32 dropped out, leaving 573 for the 2012 draw (659-54-32=573). It is interesting to consider that all of these 32 who dropped out had already invested many years and dollars to the application process before deciding that they had had enough (of course, the decision was easy for any of the 32 who had happened to die during the past year). I expect that attrition rates will continue to be high, as an increasing number of applicants considers the rationality of tossing $100 bills annually into a process in which they will likely run out of years before drawing a permit.

Nonetheless... Good luck in the 2012 draw!

HT
 
Also... I have not created a model for the Moose draw, but it would be easy for someone else to do so. I became worried about the wolf impact on moose populations several years ago, and pulled the trigger on a tag from Unit 5, from which I took an average bull, so I am done for Wyoming moose. If I had it to do over again, I would have waited to draw a tag in one of the better moose units... but I had nothing else lined up to hunt that year, and with applications in to all the Western states, I felt I had to begin burning some points somewhere.
 
A possible wrench. This year they allowed some of the sheep hunters in units with fires to carry over their permits to 2012. Does anyone know if they will reduce the tag allocations in these units by the number of carry over tags?
 
Great information HT.
You seem to know your numbers which is helpful for us digitally challenged folks! I am curious where you stand in the process. Hopefully you are down the line a bit,(for our sake) so we can get your annual report and confidence boost!
Thanks man.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-11 AT 06:20PM (MST)[p]
Thank you. I have 16 points, one off MAX. I did not apply for sheep in Wyoming in 1995 because I was going Stone sheep hunting that year and could not afford the time or money for two sheep hunts, so I missed out being in on the beginning.

In 2011 I applied for a preference point only because I was going on my son's Dall sheep hunt to the Yukon this summer. He killed a nice ram and a wolf. For 2012 I may try to draw a bighorn permit, as I have no other hunts planned... and I am not getting any younger. The Yukon wilderness kicked my azz. It was no country for an old man. And I am sure that the Wyoming mountains are not getting any flatter on my behalf.

It would be interesting to know the age distribution of the 27 persons holding the MAX of 17 points, all of whom applied for Wyoming sheep in 1995. It is hard to believe that many of them are not also feeling the calling of the years.

HT
 
Thanks, HT.

I'm most of the max/near max nonresidents have to be in their 40's or older.. I would think they must have had stable careers to afford the nonresident fees... Maybe dad's started putting kids in with the $7 point... But bet few parents fronted the full fees for their kids.... Age will be playing in more each year...
 
+1

Mr. Fudd.

You're next in line, if I remember correctly you're at -1???
We will expect big things from you and a great report please. Good luck in the drawing.

That's closer than I am but I'll continue to play since I know of several guys who have dropped out. Age was a factor, not their health. They just gave up on trying. This will happen at an increasing rate IMHO.

When my ticket gets punched I'll be in my late 60's but what the hell else should I be doing if not dreaming about another sheep hunt?

Luck to all,
Zeke
 
Good luck on a Rocky tag HT!
My Rocky hunt was much easier on my bones than my Dall hunt last year. But then I sat in a saddle for most of my Wyoming Rocky hunt. I am sure when you draw, you will find a way to maneuver the physicality of it all.
Zeke, you don't have any more wall space for another ram!
 
Thank you for the encouragement. I'm sure that when I draw a Wyoming bighorn tag that I'll find some way to make it happen. I have five rams now, but the last one was taken ten years ago in 2001. A final sixth ram from the Cowboy State should cap off my sheep hunting experience, which has been wonderful.

Elmer - I began applying for my son in 1998, the second year he was eligible, and during the time you had to front the $2K+ fee up front. He is in his late 20's now, but has 14 points and so should be able to draw a bighorn tag during his mid-30's... assuming that the NR permit numbers, and the rules, stay the same.

HT
 
Thank you for the information. At 34 years old, I think its too late for me to start applying in Wyoming, but my son was born this year and I will start buying points for him and hope I'm still alive to go with him when he draws.

I'll ship my funds to NM and MT and play the super tag lotto everywhere. Hopefully I can afford a BC bighorn since it is unlikely I will ever draw in the US.
 
Cool stats.

I love how optimistic some of you are.

Thats a tough situation if you are just getting started on points--even if you are a 12 year old.
 
gznokes - I'm not interested in debating, but I am curious as to the over optimisin referenced in your post.

This model predicts that it will take about 38 years to draw a tag. For a 22 year old starting out, that means drawing a tag at age 60. For a 32 year old, it means age 70. For a 42 year old... age 80. At some point, biology takes over. And if the attrition rates are less than forecast in the model, or if any number of other adverse things occur, such as a reduction in the number of annual Non-resident permits, the time period required to draw will get much worse.

Will guys continue sending $100 bills to Wyoming to buy points even after they reach their 70's and 80's... just because they can? No... at some point rationality will take over... at least for most.

The attrition rates used in the model are based on actual experience over the past three years. If there is some better standard to use, I'd be interested in hearing what that would be.

Good luck... I hope that you're one of the fortunate ones.

HT
 
I think you're right, the other thing is for those of us who are younger the odds for the tougher units could improve. older guys will go for area 5 and such because they have more points and it's an easy hunt.

I just hope I draw before I'm one of those older boys myself.
 
>Also... I have not created a
>model for the Moose draw,
>but it would be easy
>for someone else to do
>so. I became worried about
>the wolf impact on moose
>populations several years ago, and
>pulled the trigger on a
>tag from Unit 5, from
>which I took an average
>bull, so I am done
>for Wyoming moose. If I
>had it to do over
>again, I would have waited
>to draw a tag in
>one of the better moose
>units... but I had nothing
>else lined up to hunt
>that year, and with applications
>in to all the Western
>states, I felt I had
>to begin burning some points
>somewhere.

HT,

I appreciate the time and effort you put into creating this sheep PP model every year. I would like your opinion on the moose draw though. I don't expect you to spend time crunching numbers, but I am courious as to what your timeline would be for me to draw a Unit 1 moose tag with 9 non-res points off the top of your head. I am trying to stay very positive about possibly drawing a Unit 1 moose tag, and when I review the Eastman's MRS section every year on their predections of points class for non-res moose in wyoming, but when I try to interpret the draw statistics put out by WGF, I get very skeptical that I will ever draw a Unit 1 moose tag. Again, thanks for your time and effort you put into the sheep PP model, and I look forward to your opinion.

Thanks,

Josh
 
Josh - I wish that I could help you, but I can't. I haven't thought about the Wyoming Moose process since I went on my moose hunt there eight or nine years ago. Perhaps there is some other moose enthusiast out there who will put together a model.

Good luck.

HT
 
I thought they usually publish the elk, deer, lope, moose, & sheep point level Dec 1. Guess they are late this year

"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
Thought they'd be out to...either way those and the 2012 Nonresident booklet for Wyoming should be out any day now. I'm curious how many dropped off the moose total...I'm closer to moose than sheep, but should eventually draw both.
 
Guess I got to try to draw each and every year I'm in draw status and not take a chance on a rule change. But, I'm seriously sweating the $2200 this coming year.... Sent my second kid off to college.. Unforseen medical problems with family and dr bills... Ibex hunt in Feb and hopefully taxidermy bills...

I was seriously considering dropping when it went to $100 nonrefundable for the point at -1. Now, I consider it a ball in chain to a certain extent....
 
E Fudd,
At -1 PP I would think you would see it as a "gift" (of your own doing) rather than a "ball and chain". If you don't want to apply this year, a couple hundred dollars will keep you going for 2 years. DON'T QUIT NOW, we need a good sheep story from you! Good luck no matter what you do.

I feel your pain about digging up the BIG money to apply. I have 12 PP for moose and that's about all I need to draw. Maybe I'd better apply/draw this year considering the wolf situation.
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-11 AT 02:44PM (MST)[p]It is remarkable to consider that Wyoming has created this revenue stream around preference points from which it receives $700K+ annually, for NR bighorn sheep alone. And for what... the opportunity to hold one's place in line to pay $2K+ for a permit. It's a great business model.

The pricing of a preference point at $100 makes sense only if one believes that participating in the process equals the certainty of eventual draw. That's right... not just improved odds... but certainty. And that is what most participants must believe, that if only they stand in line long enough, they eventually will draw a bighorn permit. The problem is that participants are limited to one draw for one year, and most do not have enough years left ahead of them to realistically have a chance of ever getting to the head of the line.

It would be interesting to model the "ideal" number of participants in the preference point draw, meaning that maximum number where every participant could expect to draw a permit for a reasonable number of years, say 25, standing in line. A simple answer might be to multiply 54 permits per year (the current NR draw) times 25 years, which equals 1350 participants. Throwing in the random draw permits might increase this number to 1550. This number is still far fewer than the 7000+ participants currently in the NR bighorn draw.

Clearly... many more participants will have to attrit from (or drop out of) the system for this process to make economic sense. And hopefully, whatever excess money Wyoming is receiving from this process is going to the sheep.
 
I'm one of those guys who will have 12 points drawing 13 going into 2112 with a son I've been paying for with 10 going in to draw 11 spending a lot hoping to draw a tag . The money NR put out to draw tags is outrageous. I drew a tag in Colo this past year and got a nice ram . So now the debate is on to how long to stay in the draw in hopes to draw or if I should drop out and keep my son in. $$$$$$ Will take alot to draw a tag by the looks of it .Steve
 
HT, thanks for doing this again this year. It's always interesting to read, and it definitely gives me optimism about staying in. My son and I both have 13 points, and while I'm 52 my son is only 24. I'm not worried about drawing a sheep tag in my early 60s, and know that my son should have no problems hunting them in his early 30s.

For those who worry about old age, let me tell you about a friend of mine. I went to his house about a year ago to see his mounts. The entry hall has 14 mounted sheep, representing several grand slams. My friend is about 80 years old, and is still sheep hunting. He went on his first sheep hunt at 70 years old, and has taken all those sheep since that time. If you stay healthy and have desire (and funds), there is always a way. In addition to sheep hunting, he goes on a couple African safaris a year.
 
CAelknuts,
It's interesting that you and your son are about the same age as me and my son (we have about the same points too). I'm not worried one bit about drawing in my 60's or even early 70's for sheep. Horses and a good guide will go a long way to make the hunt a pleasant experience. I hunted sheep in unit 3 in 1987 and while physical it was not a killer.

I feel the same way about age. When you have something to look forward to, it's easier to stay in shape.

My suspicion is that "my" ram isn't even born yet. I hope the sheep population continues to stay strong. Except for population decline or rules change we should draw....some day!

Zeke
 
Wyoming Game & Fish has finally published "2012 Data - Preference Point Totals", on the Hunting page of its website. including bighorn sheep, moose, deer, antelope and elk. It is not clear why it took so long this year to post this information, though it may have had something to do with the redesign of the Wyoming G&F website.
 
Its amazing at how many have dropped off last year's max points for antelope, deer, and elk...seems to be working...for now. You can really see the effects of less moose tags...its stalling...going to take awhile!
 

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