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fishon

Very Active Member
Messages
1,052
I will say this 1 time and i time only.

I left SFW because I was tired of hearing its leaders say 1 thing and doing something else. I left because big bulls and bucks are more important to them then the chance to hunt. I left because don wants 30% OF L.E. TAGS TO GO TO CONSERVATION GROUPS,and 60%of those to go to SFW.I left because I was tired of putting out the fires don started. I left because wildlife should be managed by bioligists not politicians. I left because Sfw's percieved power is based on fear of standing up againts them thinking your word is not heard. I left because for 10 years they have said they were fixing the deer herds yet now they are still decreasing. I left because they only represent 1% of the sportsmen and sportswomen in the state yet take credit for representing the majority. I left because if the dwr goes againts sfw then sfw threatens to force them to do something through legislation. I LEFT BECAUSE SFW IS JUST A BULLY THAT NEEDS TO BE HUMBLED!

I left because don has paid sfw board members to do banquets even when he was told not to. I left because I believe SFW does shady things and justifys it in the name of wildlife. I left because the tail (don) wags the dog (sfw board) and if sfw doesnt agree with don then he goes around them to the legislators. I left because $280 is way to much to hunt l.e. elk in utah. I left because don believes that quality is far more important then quantity. I left because don wants us all to only hunt deer or elk each year not both.I left because I believe politicians have been paid off or bought. I left because don does not care what me or any of you say if it doesnt agree with him. I left because average hunter is not represented vary well by sfw. I left because sfw pretends to have 15,000 members in utah when in reality they are lucky to have 5,000 in utah. I left because don has said that all other conservation groups are basically worthless. He calls the RMEF the rocky mountain wolf foundation. He says the mule deer foundation is worthless. he said safari club is a waste of time. He doesnt believe that the nwtf is smart enough to do much good. I left because in 5 years when my son turns 14 if things go the way don and sfw are taking them he might not be able to hunt unless I am rich. I left because outside of conservation permit money sfw puts very little back into utah, most of it went to salaries and expenses and I was taking alot of it, ( $6,000 a month + expenses) And I was only the 3rd highest paid person a month.

The list could go on but honestly I have forgotten more of the reasons I left then I can remember. This probably sounds like a bitter ex-employee but it is not. I RESIGNED. I was not fired or let go or laid off I simply no longer believed that SFW was doing more good then bad. I will stand in a court of law or take a lie detector test on any of the things I have said. I have nothing to hide.
This is my opinion that I have formend over the last 4+ years.
Lots of people have contacted me since I left and voiced alot of the same concerns that I have just listed. Gary lewis who did my job with sfw before me has verified alot of the things I have listed.
I believe a conservation organization should represent more then just the guy with money. My intentions are to start a group that cares about the opportunity to hunt more then the quality of the hunt. I dont care if there are 400" bulls in the mountains if i cant hunt them. I would rather hunt a 320 to 350 bull then never hunt a 400" bull. I would rather hunt small bucks then never hunt massive bucks. I like to hunt. That is my intentions. Utah should have more archery permits. Utah should not be run by politicians it should be run by bioligists. Utah sportsmen should have a voice and right now they dont.

tony abbott
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-04 AT 10:35PM (MST)[p]WOW!!!!!
The average supporter like me has no idea what goes on behind the scenes and who gets most of our hard earned money.
I'm speechless(but I can write). I LOVE THIS SITE!!!!!
High 5
 
I WILL DISAGREE WITH THE QUANTITY OVER QUALITY

IF ALL THE MAJORITY WANTS TO DO IS HUNT,AND HUNT FOR ANY TYPE OF BULL,THEN THEY CAN HUNT THE HIGHLY COVETED GENERAL SEASON OPEN AREA BULL UNITS,YOU DON'T NEED A LE TAG TO TAKE A STINKY OLD RAGHORN!!!

THATS JUST MY OPINION,AS SOON AS THE OPPORTUNITY IS GIVEN TO ALL, YOUR LE UNITS WON'T BE WORTH A DAMN,MARK MY WORD ON IT AND WILL LAY MONEY ON THE TABLE PLACING BETS EVEN THOUGH I MIGHT BE BREAKING UTARD RULES!!!

I KNOW THE TRAITS OF THIS STATE,I SEEN IT HAPPEN WITH THE COW ELK SLAUGHTERS THAT ARE EXTENDED INTO JANUARY & FEBUARY,LET'S OFFER A LITTLE OPPORTUNITY NEXT YEAR,THAT WAS PRETTY GOOD,LETS OFFER MORE NEXT YEAR,AND MORE NEXT YEAR AND SO ON AND SO ON!!!

AS SOON AS THE LE UNITS ARE DECIMATED MY BONUS POINTS ARE UP FOR AUCTION AND THIS STATE CAN KISS MY TAIL!!!

I'M NOT TRYING TO PI$$ PEOPLE OFF,I'M TRYING TO GET THEM TO LOOK INTO THE FUTURE,AND BY THAT I'M MEANING INTO THE FUTURE MORE THAN ONE GOOD HUNT!!!

NOT EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDIES KIDS CAN HUNT EVERY SPECIES EVERY YEAR AND EXPECT QUALITY TOO,AND YA I'VE GOT KIDS TOO!!!

LE UNITS ARE NOT FOR EVERYBODY,SO EVERYBODY THAT WHINES ABOUT THEM SHOULD JUST BUY A OPEN BULL TAG EVERY YEAR AND HUNT EVERY YEAR,IF THAT AIN'T OPPORTUNITY I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS,HAND EM (DWR) MONEY AND HELL YA THEY'LL GIVE YOU A PERMIT!!!

I'M NOT DIRECTING THIS JUST AT YOU TONY,ALOT OF PEOPLE AIN'T GONNA LIKE WHAT I'VE JUST SAID BUT I AIN'T CHANGING MY MIND!!!

I'M WITH YOU ON THE DEER HERDS,I'D SURE HATE TO SEE THE TROPHY BULLS TAKE THE SAME PLUNGE DUE TO NOTHING MORE THAN GREED!!!

THE ONLY bobcat GLAD TO HEAR WHAT FISHON HAD TO SAY!!!
 
Wow Tony, you cleared the air on your half. The interesting thing is that now to hear the other side would let people form some opinion.

I personally, like quality, so I guess I can go with THE DON on that one. Tha quantity thing has been experienced before and failed miserably.

30% of the permits for conservation is bull pucky. Hell, you would have to sell a Pahvant elk tag and a Heaton Ranch tag just to pay you each year. However, for a chance at Tony's job, I could easily change my stance and 30% of the tags is a wonderful idea. One I could support.

The unfortunate thing in my eyes, is that SFW sets the rules in Utah. Therefore, the hunters of Utah must live by that opinion. I know they have an unbelievable amount of clout. Don, please limit deer tags even further. Don, please don't mess with the elk herd. Don, please limit deer tags. Whoops already said that. Don, please interview me for Tony's job. I will have my bachelors degree in business management shortly. Would that apply? OK, I have one more question for you. What were your duties and how do I get your old job? Sounds like a pretty good gig. I could be swayed for that kind of cash except I would need a little more for my outstanding service. I think bobcattripper is sucking up to get your old job.

This whole deal sounds like a cluster.

Eat sheep and save a deer.

ktc
 
My thoughts:

- You have big balls to do what you've done ( KUDOS!)
- You have conviction and ethics to walk away from $6k mo. That's pretty good money for a job most guys would dream of.
- I wonder how long before this thread gets yanked?
- I won't have anything to do with SFW based on what I've read on MM in the past couple months. Seems shady and greedy. 30% of all LE tags to conservation groups and 60% of that to SFW? WTF!WTF!... talk about greed.
- I'm torn on the quality/quantity issue - I would like to take a nice 380+ bull, but how long until that opportunity becomes reality based on current odds?
- I'd like to know the TRUE percentage of funds that DO go back to UT/DWR each year from SFW and what do those dollar amounts look like?
- That RMEF comment boils my blood - show me where SFW has come up with comparable land quantities and the value-add that RMEF has in this country! RMEF has brand recognition and value, SFW is known by a LIMITED number of sportsman.
 
Gee Tony, I can't debate a single topic with ya after reading your post a second time.

Please-Please post how to join your new organization.

I'm tired of every RAC meeting having to deal with being a no-one because the decision has already been made and the folks on the RACS being 'hand picked'........ forget about the Wildlife Board!

You always had BAlls

Thanks for your side of the story.
Robb

Don't yanks this thread okay Brian??
 
NOT ONLY NO,BUT HELL NO,bobcat AIN'T SUCKING UP TO TONY'S OLD JOB!!!

I'D MAKE CHANGES VERY FEW OF YOU WOULD LIKE!!!

IF TONY WAS MAKING 6K A MONTH HE COULD DAMN SURE AFFORD THE 280.00 PERMIT FEE,DON'T YA THINK???

I DON'T AGREE WITH TURNING IT INTO A RICH MANS SPORT EITHER,BUT IN ALL REALITY,DOESN'T TOP QUALITY OF ANYTHING USUALLY COST YOU MORE MONEY???

TONY IS RIGHT ON ALOT OF IT,BUT HERES WHERE I DIFFER,THE CHANCES OF TAKING A 380-400 BULL ARE SLIM,GETTING THE PERMIT IS EVEN SLIMMER,THERE ARE QUITE A FEW MORE 320-350 BULLS IN THE LE UNITS BUT THERE AREN'T ENOUGH FOR EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY TO TAKE ONE,YOU KNOW DAMN WELL WHEN THEY START RAISING THE NUMBER OF PERMITS THEY (DWR)WILL JUST KEEP UPPING THEM EVERY YEAR DUE TO GREED BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET THE MONEY AND WON'T QUIT UNTIL THE UNITS ARE BACK TO BEING JUNK UNITS!!!

THINK ABOUT IT,DO YOU THINK THERE ARE ENOUGH 320-350 BULLS TO SATISFY EVERYBODY IN THE STATE THAT WANTS ONE???

THERE AIN'T AND YOU'D STILL HAVE A BUNCH OF UNHAPPY HUNTERS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT KISSING A$$ FOR TONY'S EX-JOB!!!
 
I agree that there is not enough 300+ bulls for everyone to just be able to go elk hunting. But I do beleive that there is enough to alow more oportunity and not hurt quality. I am far enough up in Bonus points that I am fairley sure I will draw a tag in the next few years with the current rules, but what about my wife who is just getting into hunting and only has one point? Or my 2 year old daughter, whats the odds going to be when she turns 14? She could never draw a permit (or afford one).

I don't think we should just open up the units and alow anyone who wants to to hunt. I feel that there is some common ground between the two extremes to give hunters more opertunity and still have quality.

I would just like to be able to hunt a mature bull elk in Utah more than once in my life. i don't expect to be able to do it every year but once every 5-6 years would be nice. If they leave things the way they are know they might as well make a Limited elk tag a once in a life time hunt (if your lucky enough to draw) because that is bacicaly what it has become.

Mark
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-04 AT 10:39AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-04 AT 09:59?AM (MST)

If you have units managed for 320 to 350 bulls which I think is a 5-6year old objective some will escape and become 400 bulls. I recall, over the last couple of years having some of the biggest bulls in our state coming off the 5 to 6 year units, the Dutton and the Wasatch. You guys that are against this I'm sorry you might have to actually get out of your truck and hunt to get that 400 bull. And 280 for a resident tag? What are we non-residents? And for the deer over the counter Archery tags and a 2 to 3 week season should suffice but decrease the gun tags until they can rebound especially during the drought we're in. We need a group that will represent the average hunter in this state and take back what is ours before the rich and greedy have it all. Give me a group where the average hunter actually has a voice. Like I said before some like the fact that the deer are struggling because they can get more out of their tags. Less supply and more demand means more money! If the deer herd was like it was in the 60's and 70's you can bet the governors tag wouldn't be worth @#@$! Things can be and I repeat can be managed for both quantity and quality!! Opportunity can increase and still have quality as far as elk. Doesn't quantity and quality go together? The more deer numbers the more bucks the more that escape the bigger they get. We do have to decrease the 97,000 rifle permits though in order to increase numbers. A neighboring state "Arizona" (they are not perfect either)but they have over the counter archery tags and limited gun tags = plenty of opportunity and quality if one draws a gun tag and hunts and repeat hunts. They, also give out 250 to 400 elk tags on top units and still have 400 bulls taken every year. Things need to change and the average hunter needs a voice. Let's get started! Yeehaw!
 
Good hell Tony,

You finally came out and said what I've been trying to tell you on this site for three years!!! ;-)

There is something inherently wrong with our wildlife being managed by politicians. How could anyone believe it's a good thing that the future of deer or lions in Utah is being decided by someone with a cell phone in one hand, a pen in the other, and his tie laying on the table next to his three Krispy Kreme donuts??

Politicians do two things and they do them better than anyone else. They lie to you and take your money. It's what politicians have always done and will always do. And if you still believe they represent you and your interests, well pard I can't help you cuz you are a bit too slow and dense for reason or logic to help you out.

A couple of questions for you folks to mull over. When whirling disease hit Utah, did any politicians step forward and take the blame? Nope. Olympic Bribery Scandal. Did any politician step forward and accept responsibility? Nope. What happened? Lots of finger pointing.

Do any of you in your most far fetched imaginations actually believe for one second that any politician is going to step forward and take the blame for Utah's deer herd?

And spare me this "wildlife management is about politics" BS. The only thing that's about politics is POLITICS!!! I caught some of that Democratic convention on TV last night, why not just have John Kerry take over our deer herd problem and fix it? He's got money and he can talk out of both sides of his mouth just like our wildlife politicians. Hell, he's probably better.

The SFW is a good thing. They have done some really great things in Utah, I won't dispute that. But the SFW is like mules. Mules aren't for everybody. Some people will love them and some will hate them. But they aren't for everybody.

Wildlife is like anything else, if one single person gets too much power, it's never a good thing. To those of you who are die hard SFW supporters I think that's great. Keep at it and you are probably making a difference.

They simply just aren't for me. I admire things they get accomplished and they have some fantastic people in their group. Some really good hunters and really good people and some good friends of mine. Tony was always a good sport during our lion vs deer battles and I admire that. I was usually the only one to hit below the belt.

I'm just glad I finally got Tony to see the light after all this time. ;-) Politicians have managed to screw up about everything else on this planet. What makes any of you think they won't do the same to wildlife?

Let the people trained to do it do their jobs. It doesn't seem like too much to ask, but I guess it is. Good luck in whatever road you choose Tony. Take the high road cuz I've been on this low road for years and it's getting really crowded down here!! :)

Can't we all just get along? Oh wait, I almost forgot... you guys are a bunch of lion haters. Never mind, you guys get along with each other and I'm going back to my hillbilly hounding buddies on our little doggy website. ;-)

Save a lion, shoot an outfitter! -Dawg
 
Good to hear one side of this whole SFW Story. Thanks for posting your side of it Tony......the only thing that could've made your post any better, is if you started out with the Jack Nicholson line from "A Few Good Men"

"YOU WANT THE TRUTH, YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH"

Unfortunatly, there are going to be some on this site, who are so SFW gung-ho, that they wont be able to handle the truth.

TUFF
 
HowndDawg,

What is up with you? Are you lost in your little hound world or what? What is this Dawg stuff anyway? Last I had heard, you were 'THE DAWG';-)

Straighten up would ya.

ktc
 
Tony,

Where do I sign up? If there was such an organization, that cared about the legacy of hunting for what it should be, then I'm all in! Too many people are losing site of that. I dare say that many of them frequent this site. Hunting is about spending time in the mountains, with family, and pursuing game. It SHOULD NOT be about politics, $$$, and whoever shoots the biggest animal wins. After hearing so much about the inner workings of the SFW, from a former key player, I've concluded it's something I don't want to have any part in.

IMO, I think there is too much dishonesty involved. The only reason "The Don" is so supportive of SFW, is because it's his livelihood. Who else would pay him to be the dink that he is? He's really got the wool pulled over the eyes of SFW's members. And another thing, there's a reason he likes to be around politicians so much. He's just like 'em! DIRTY! It's unfortunate that the majority of $$$ that SFW works to bring in, goes to pay its big wigs, rather than doing Utah some good. Is its members aware of this? You show me a paper trail of where all the money is being used, and maybe I will quit harping on SFW, but until some evidence is provided, they're "Guilty until Proven Innocent" in my book.

Thanks for the Inside Scoop Tony. If you do start something up based on integrity, and the values hunting should be all about, you've got my support.

Noel (aka EG)


If this thread does get yanked, it will only further define more clearly the biases of the moderators of this site.
 
I have been doin' some thinkin' I am going to start my own group.

Founder:ktc
Vice President:'THE DAWG'
Secretary: bobcat_____ I haven't decided on which one yet.

We are going to be quality and quantity. Each wanting Utahn can shoot a Booner deer and elk EVERY year. The tags will be unlimited so each and every family will be able to attend the slaughter. You will only have to be 5 to buy a tag so every kid can start out young.

Next we will potion the state of Utah to reenacat the law of "the third Friday and fourth Monday of each October will be a state holiday" just like Pioneer Day. The first Wednesday of each October will be an extended holiday that will run until the following Monday.

With our fisrt $400K we will be buying a D10 (we will divy out the other $200k for wages. We are the wildlife Gods you must remember). With that fine peice of equipment we will plow a road down every ridge line in Utah. That way the whole family can participate in the holiday.

Next up we will be lobbying for a cap on 4-wheeler prices. No 4-wheeler can cost more than $250. This will allow everyone who wants to buy a wheeler and participate in the "Booner Blast" young, old, women, men, the Whole famdamnly!

We will ensure that tags are free. Except for the Desert Bighorn tags that we auction. You will have to apply for once-in-a-lifetime tags, but here is the great part; we will maintain 50% draw odds on all species.

THE DAWG will manage the predator control. All killings will go through him and him only. It will be his job to buy a crop duster and spray the state with Predator-B-Gone. This will ensure that no carnivours exist in Utah. He will patrol the borders with his airplane. We will have to buy this with the funds of course.

bobcat______ (still don't know which one) will be our hornory-ass. He will threaten all who get in our way. He is the official hitman.

Now for the name. COWS-FO-U Creator's of Wildlife Slaughter and Family Outings for U

Send as much money as ya got to one of us.

ktc
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-04 AT 01:13PM (MST)[p]Another thing to think about now is the Arizona ruling. If you think odds of drawing are bad now just wait until half of our elk tags are going to non-residents. All the sacrafices now for years building up this great elk herd and for what? So non-residents can get all the tags and pay guides big money to blow them all over! Arizona is not the only state that will have to comply with the ruling. Other states will have to comply and Utah will be one of them. I'll bet next year you'll see around half of our limited entry permits going to non-residents. Should have increased the permits this year because next year will be too late. Money, money, money, is again the driving force in the change. Some guides along with some SFW big wigs are jumping for joy though. Just something to think about. All this crap going on is getting pretty depressing. It's a circus and pretty soon the only thing the average hunter will be hunting is the remote control because of the year after year rejection letter and 50 bonus points still won't do you any good!!!
 
If you think the political b.s started with Don Peay you are sadly mistaken, If you look at the names of the people that have
drew out on the premium tags that alone will tell you alot,
I'm sure we all have wondered about how the same names show up year after year. The best example that comes to mind is when salt lake city was trying to get the olympics, guess who was drawn for one of the first rocky mtn. sheep tags ever in utah??????
answer........Tom Welch....Mr olympic scandal himself...
As far as don peay goes when you give one man alot of power and
access to alot of money anything could happen. I cannot pass judgement on some one that I don't know but the balance of power needs to be spread around.. I have had the pleasure of sitting in more than one RAC meeting when they are discussing lion objectives and have heard sound advise from the audience and have one rep from sfw stand up and decide for the whole room what he wants to happen. I have been a member of SFW for along time and on alot of points lately they don't represent my views. I do like the Idea for more opprotunity to hunt L.E units more than once in my life.
 
Are we back on this subject? TONY, move on man!! You're so hung up on hurting your ex-employer. I feel bad for you that you go to such lengths. Put that effort into something productive. If you don't like SFW, do your thing and move on. How would you like it if people were bashing your radio show every week here because they didn't agree with what you have to say?

I think this subject has been beat to death. You have your side, SFW has theirs. Some people support SFW, others don't. I can't see that you're trying to accomplish anything that is good for wildlife, because this stuff isn't. It's pathetic.

I'm not going to lock or remove this thread, but if it continues on the path that it is or if anyone requests that it be, I will.

Tony, I respected you, but pitful posts such as this do NO good for wildlife or sportsmen.

Everyone, please, keep any following posts clean or take them elsewhere.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-04 AT 03:47PM (MST)[p]I request that this thread remain open!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The plain truth hurts alot of self-centered greedy people. They can't handle the truth!!!! LOL! Just my opinion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-04 AT 03:50PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-04 AT 03:42?PM (MST)

ktc,
That is some funny stuff. LOL!! I wanna be something. Please can I be something. Here's an idea. Maybe we can put a cap on chuteplane prices so everyone can get one. I'll be the chuteplane mechanic. LOL!!!!
30inchbucks (The future Chuteplane Mechanic)
 
lets be realistic here tony some of what you say may be true. But you are also kind of pissed off that you were overlooked for the position that Bair holds. Maybe maybe not?
 
ktc

WOULD THAT PUT ME UP AROUND THE 50K A YEAR MARK???

I WANT TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD THE PERMIT!!!

I WANT TO SHOOT MY BOONER THIS YEAR!!!

I WILL STICK WITH QUALITY!!!

THE RIDGE ROADS WILL ONLY BE WIDENED,THERE IS ALREADY ATV TRAILS DOWN EVERY RIDGE!!!

I WILL PASS ON THE CHEAP ATV,MY CHUTE PLANE IS FINISHED AND I'M GOING TO ENJOY IT BEFORE THEY OUTLAW IT!!!

50% DRAW ODDS,YA THATS WHAT ALL THESE OPPORTUNISTS WANT!!!

THE DAWG HAS BEEN FAIRLY QUIET,MAYBE HE'S STILL MAD AT ME,I DON'T KNOW???

MY CHUTE PLANE IS THE PERFECT HIGH ELEVATION TUNE-UP MACHINE,AND FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT DON'T LIKE THE TUNE-UP,START OBEYING THE RULES AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE FREE TUNE-UP!!!

THE ONLY bobcat LMFAO AT ktc!!!
 
You know how the environmental crowd creates their success don't you? They come up with a real scary problem that has to be solved. Say the ozone or something. Then they launch a cause so noble ? so necessary that any self respecting conscientious earthling must join, or be labeled a non-intellectual hick. Then they bang the propaganda gong so loudly that many can't wait to hop on board and join the cause. Many joiners actually being the most concerned/involved well meaning type. Joining the cause always seems to entail a donation and a calling to vigorously spread said propaganda. The cause then seems to take on a life of it's own and before long being a part of it is something that is sheik or stylish. The money goes?? somewhere but it is not important because it is being used to save the world........ Get it.

For SFW habitat is the ozone. Habitat is disappearing before our eyes and they are going to save it for us - or for somebody. They have effectively created the illusion that only they can do it ? through the correct political channels of course, and this is true to an extent.

While I am a member of SFW and have donated and participated in this stylish new ?save the world? organization I have come to notice that they are not really working as hard for me ?the average joe? as it appeared.

In my neck of the woods there are just as many huge, warm red canyons full of bitterbrush as there was fifty years ago (habitat). It's almost all public land. In fact, I doubt if there has been one deer die of starvation on the Paunsaugunt unit in my lifetime. So why has SFW dumped soooo much money into this area in the name of habitat? Has it really helped the deer herd? Or has it helped SFW bang the propaganda gong so that they can ride the coat tails of a recovery created in truth by a new wildlife biologist who has FINALLY started CUTTING TAGS and ELIMINATING DOE HUNTS. I don't think habitat is as big of an issue as it is made out to be by SFW. I know it is not in Southern Utah. Habitat is a very good line of B.S. that has allowed SFW and CWMU operators (same) on the Paunsaugunt usurp power. Power to bend laws. Power to police themselves. Power to tell the DWR exactly what to do and not to do. Power to refuse tag cuts that the rest of us are taking. Power to circumvent the draw that average sportsmen have to participate in. Power to set their own hunt dates and more importantly, set mine and yours. See, if you have to hunt the first week of October instead of the last on the Paunsaugunt you don't get to hunt all those deer that summer on the CWMU. They are still up there during your Premium Limited Entry Hunt. You get to hunt all of those warm red canyons (your public land on the Pauns) before there are any deer in them. Oh yeah, and power to disallow you to hunt your few precious premium public acres in and around the CWMU where there are actually a few deer during your hunt dates because ? well I don't know why but they've done it.

Example: BACKED BY SFW the Alton cwmu refuses a recommended cut in tags proportional to public and lower landowner cuts as recommended by big game biologist Adam Bronson. As a result an additional $?0,000 worth of tags are allocated to the Alton CWMU BY THE BIG GAME BOARD for the 2004 hunt. In return for support, a tag is returned to SFW to auction off. Both parties make tens of thousands on our VERY BEST Utah deer and we get?????..? Gadiantoned! What a secret combination! Oh yeah, that money that bought the tag is used for HABITAT improvement on the unit. That is how they justify everything. That is how the average sportsman wins. We get our habitat improved. Improved by SFW on public land and improved by the CWMU on private. Bulletin: We don't need our habitat improved any more. We need some deer in our endless, sprawling, not significantly changing habitat please. Then we need the right to hunt them BACK please.

I am a member of SFW but alot of what Tony listed seems to ring true with what I've seen down here. I question if all the habitat improvement money that SFW has purchased the Paunsagaunt with has helped the average sportsman enough to balance what he has given up to the wealthy on the top end and in opportunity. Habitat on the Pauns is great! Deer numbers are improving because of huge tag cuts by the public and general land owners and a biologist who really cares about the health of the herd. Still, if you put in for archery or a rifle tag on the unit, don't harbor the illusion that you will get to hunt The Kings Herd. They are safely tucked away for the wealthy to bang the FIRST WEEK OF SEPTEMBER.

Klint Glover

www.llotp.com
 
Klint,

If it were completely up to you, what would you do to grow the deer herd? If the lack of habitat is not the problem, then what is it down there?

I read through your website a bit and it seems that the main concern with your group is the Alton CWMU. After reading through, I understand your side.
I guess my question is, what can be done to increase the deer that summer outside the CWMU? Maybe that is what should be of concern, rather than trying to change CWMU rules so that more of the public can hunt the deer that summer on the CWMU.

As I see it, the CWMU probably manages the deer on their land better than the DWR does on the unit as a whole, and maybe that is why there are more deer there.
If that is the case, then I can understand why the CWMU doesn't feel they should cut their tags.

If habitat is not the problem, then what is stopping the public herd from growing? What would you suggest?

Shoot me an email also about how to become a member. I didn't even know you all existed.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Good Post Tony!! I realized the direction of SFW had changed dramatically when we had to spend 2 hours of our time at the Utah County banquet listening to polititions pretending to be Pro hunting to get our votes.

I cant say what will happen to SFW in the post Tony Era, but everything so far is pointing downhill.

Anyone seen the 2nd or 3rd qtr Sportsmans voice??
 
Klint,

I also researched your site and I have to say that after reading the "LLOTP Concerns" I felt like I was kicked right in the testies! I now have 7 points for deer in Utah; enough to have a very good chance of drawing an archery tag for the Paunsaugunt. First of all, I did not realize that the CWMU has a rifle hunt in September. In an Alton type CWMU- this is sick and wrong! I do know enough that hunting the ALTON is not like hunting tens of thousands of acres in the high country where deer have a chance to escape, and ultimately breed. You are right; the deer that are marked for slaughter WILL BE SLAUGHTERED. How come this issue is not so black and white? They are literally taking the gene pool right out of the unit. Also, 50%-60% of the deer are on the Alton Ranch during the archery and rifle season?!! Wow, I didn't know the CWMU was such a predominate summer range. OUCH! I have listened to people say that the number of Paunsaugunt tags is way too high, now I know why. It makes me wonder if the CWMU will call for more tags because of over grazing (sounds crazy, but you never know). In my opinion, you hit the nail right on the head; less tags and the CWMU NEEDS TO CHANGE THEIR HUNTING DATES.

I think your site is great and I may become a new member.

Jeff-
 
Klint, great post! And Founder, clue in to what is really going on. About 80% of the entire Paunsaugunt deer herd has summered in the Alton area since the beginning of time. Why? Maybe because the area is engulfed by large green and lushes alfalfa fields. The deer love it because it is the prime land of the Paunsaugunt. Where would you be if you were a deer? Eating browse, sagebrush, or oakbrush or sinking your teeth into lushes alfalfa? They don't really start their migration to public land until around the middle of October. Public archery and rifle dates are conveniently before that migration ever begins. CWMU hunt date starts September 1st and runs to who knows when. Tag numbers are based on overall deer numbers and the public only hunts 20% of the herd. Is it starting to ring a bell why the public part of the unit is struggling? Now CWMU has constructed a 10 foot high fence along the entire South end of the unit to conveniently interrupt the migration. Maybe we should just let them get away with whatever they want and believe what ever they say as to why the fence is there. And let them butcher the publics resource and collect their 11,000 dollars a pop. You mention improving the habitat on the public part of the unit. The only improvement you could do is plant the entire thing in alfalfa. LOL!!!
 
So if the CWMU didn't exist, do you think the hunting would be better? I would dare say no, it would be much worse.
First of all, if the CWMU operators have no interest in the deer, their going to NOT want them feeding in those fields and will kill or have them killed.
If 80% live in that CWMU and they feed in those farmer's fields and the farmers get nothing out of it, the farmers are not going to want them there.
So if you wipe out all those deer, where are you left----even less deer and less hunting opportunity.

It's a double edged sword as I see it. All CWMU's have long season's, but that is the point of the program. If they only had a one week season, they wouldn't be apart of the program because there would be no benefit. They need that long season in order to sale their tags and guide their hunters.

If that CWMU was ever shut down, the deer herd would be much smaller. That is obvious, because that is where the deer are thriving, not on the top of the plateau, apparently.

In addition, if the CWMU no longer existed, there would be no public hunting at all on that private land. It would ALL be for guys with dollars paying to hunt that private land.
Right now, atleast a few "joe's" can draw the tag. Without the CWMU setup, no average joe would ever hunt that private land.

IMO, the focus shouldn't be on how we can kill more Alton CWMU deer, but how we can increase the herd on the public land. And if habitat isn't the problem, what is it down there?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Brian,

Thanks for the interest and the site. I swore it off for a while but this issue interests me. You ask some important questions that have complex answers. Some are addressed in the ?numbers to consider? portion of the llotp site. Migration dynamics and time are elements seldom considered by the average sportsman that puts in for the unit.

How would I recover the unit? What I would do is get a biologist who wants a trophy unit and is willing to stick his neck out to manage for one. Done! One who will limit tags and stop all of the doe hunting. Done! One who will be fair with all entities involved and not bow to political pressure. We?ve got a great start and are noticing a difference already. Bucks are slowly coming back. Now we need to keep tag numbers down low enough to create a trophy unit. Every buck counts. It's not that complicated biologically but politically hard to do. Everyone wants to kill the damn things for love or money. In short, most of the things that have needed to be done are finally being done. Can we maintain them? Hopefully, and that is what our group wants to do.

Now, you ask what more can be done to increase trophy quality outside the cwmu. You ask the question as if there are two separate herds. A CWMU herd and a public herd. There has always been one Paunsagaunt herd that summers high and winters low. This herd has been hunted by different groups at different times as it moves south. By changing hunt dates to early October several years ago, the DWR insured a huge slice of the Paunsaugunt pie was untouchable to public archery and rifle hunters (the majority) who drew a tag. The half of the herd that summers around Alton. It looked bad with the Alton CWMU boss on the board and all when the hunt dates changed. My contention has always been that we cannot lock over half the herd away from the public. It is ours. Ours to put in for. Ours to view. Ours to hunt if we are lucky enough to draw a tag. Ours to be excited about. Locking half up relegates all public hunters to say 40% - 50% of the herd while the DWR allots tags based on their estimate of the entire Paunsaugunt herd. As a result of this and many other things the portion of the herd available to me and you has been grossly over-hunted for a premium unit while the Heatons have magnificently managed THEIR half? by stopping the public from hunting it. These are deer that spend most of their year on public land but unfortunately for the average Joe, happen to be on private property when his drawn tag is good.

I guess what we are to here is that I agree with you that CWMU deer have been managed better and I am glad for it since we are needing to rebuild. The problem that most people don't see is that there is a relationship between the number of deer taken on public land and the number NOT TAKEN from the portion of the herd that summers on the CWMU. Grossly more have been taken from the public side BECAUSE none have been taken from the CWMU by public hunters.

This problem needs to be fixed for the future of the public herd and the future of hunting, for equity and opportunity for the average Joe who wants to hunt the very best unit in his state. Read numbers to consider on the llotp website. kg
 
Brian,

I agree with you that the CWMU does some good and should not be eliminated. However, don't you think something should be changed with the dates (public and CWMU)? I think a CWMU September hunt should be an archery hunt for obvious reasons, and I don't believe the revenue would go down much by changing that. There are plenty avid archery hunters that have deep pockets and would love to hunt Alton. Also, the public hunting would obviously be better if the dates of the public hunt were later in October, and therefore make public hunters more accepting to the CWMU. I am all for increasing the deer heard on public land, on ANY unit right now. But wouldn't we still be in the same loop? For example, increasing deer on public land would also increase deer on summer ranges/Alton, and just give the Alton CWMU more deer to hunt and the public hunter more deer that they CAN?T hunt. Which brings me back to the dates?.
The Alton unit is definitely a unique CWMU, and I cannot look at this situation on the same level as with the few other CWMU?s that I am familiar with.

Just some thoughts-
 
I'm not familiar as to why the DWR has the rifle dates set for early Oct. Back when it was changed to early Oct., I was under the impression that it was done so because hunters couldn't find any deer on the Plateau, most had already migrated.
My experience hunting there tells me the deer migrate off the Plateau in early to mid-Oct.

Maybe someone can explain why the DWR refuses to change the hunt dates? Has it even been asked of the DWR?

As far as increasing the deer herd, I don't believe that increasing the deer numbers on the Plateau will directly influence deer numbers on the CWMU.
I was under the impression that back in the early 80's, farm deer from the Salina area of Utah were transplanted to the Paunsaugunt. Because those farm deer lived on Alfalfa all their lives in Salina, they headed straight for the Alfalfa in the Alton area.

I don't believe that all deer will prefer Alfalfa over vegitation that grows at higher elevations on top of the Plateau. There are Alfalfa fields all over the western states, yet in most areas, the Alfalfa fields are NOT where most of the deer live.
I believe that limited hunting in the Alton area is why it sports such a great herd and great bucks.

The Pausaugunt is a unique unit. An interesting fact I would like to know is, how many deer lived their prior to 1980 when it became a limited entry unit. My guess is, that unit never did have a much larger herd than it does now.
If that is the case, then habitat is what limits its growth.

As far as September hunts on the CWMU's, I can't really see the problem. The farmers are allowing these deer to thrive on their Alfalfa, and they should be compensated, and that is through getting dollars for their hunts. If the deer that live on the Pauns. are really made up by 80% of CWMU deer, then it's in the best interest of the public that the CWMU continue to manage the deer the best they can. And they won't if the benefit is not worth the cost.

PS - It makes to feel good that SFW donated a bow and "footed the bill" for a project for Lowlander's of the Pausaugunt(http://www.llotp.com/SpringProject.html). A lot can be done when organizations work together.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Is building a 10 foot high fence to stop the migration managing the unit properly? Or trapping a 36 inch buck up a against a fence and blowing it over managing the unit properly? By the way, the Alton unit is also struggling for big bucks. Not as many on there as there used to be. In fact very few. Now their trying to trap them in so the public can't chase them with their smokesticks. There is going to have to be some kind of compromise on the hunt dates both public and private or things are going to get even uglier.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-04 AT 01:49PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-04 AT 01:37?PM (MST)

This is what needs to happen in order to bring back the Paunsaugunt. First, the public hunt dates need to be moved. The rifle needs to be in late October just as the general hunt dates. The muzzleloader which I'll get alot of heat over, needs to be moved out of the rut into late Sept early Oct just as the general. The Archery needs to stay the same. Arizona also needs to move there rifle hunt dates on the border out of the rut into later October. The Cwmu needs to cut their tags just as the public has and have archery only hunts in September and guns in October. Also something needs to be done about the fence on the migration route. If all this would happen you would see the Paunsaugunt rebound in a couple of years and it would be one heck of a trophy unit again.
 
Brian,

You may be right about increasing the deer herd on the plateau will not highly influence the deer herd in the alfalfa. However, how can you not see the problem with the September rifle hunt? Especially when we are talking about 60%+ of the paunsaugunt deer herd. I am not being pissy, but please educate me why you think the September slaughter with a rifle is not a problem. The proof is in the pudding, as Alton itself is seeing a decrease in quality. You know it isn't because of the lack of feed and draught. I have to say it is very obvious. They created a hunt, where given the current weapon, anyone with any skills and an Alton guide can kill their selected buck. If for some reason they fail, the next client will kill it. It is not a case where the buck has a very good chance of escaping to breed. Again, this would change by making the September hunt an archery hunt. The CWMU would still be compensated greatly for their alfalfa. I don't know what to think about the fence thing. Why would they put up a fence that keeps the very product they depend on out of their fields?
Nothing personal, I would just like to get educated opinions to educate myself on the whole thing. Anyway, this discussion probably needs a dedicated thread in itself.

Jeff-
 
Ya, this needs to be in a new thread, because I think other suggestions should be made.

If CWMU operators throughout the state are pressured to hunt with archery only in September, there would be a battle. The program itself would be in jeopardy. Many CWMU's hunt more than a dozen hunters each year. Bringing 15 guys in to hunt in October would be difficult, as there may not be enough guides and there maybe too many hunters crowding the place.
For you and I, what do we care, we're used to competing with lots of other hunters.
However, many of the guys who spend the tall dollars, don't want to deal with that, and that is part of the reason they pay that much to hunt.

Also, IMO, CWMU's would not get nearly the dollars for archery hunts as they do rifle hunts, therefore, their income would go down.

And, in the case of the Alton CWMU, the good hunting would only last 2 weeks. That means they would have to bring in every hunter (40 something I believe) and hunt them in 2 weeks. It would be a mad house and the public guys who draw would be left to hunt late Oct. when many of the deer are gone.

To be honest, if what you suggest could really ever happen, then it would only be good. But, the fact of the matter is, it probably never will. So as I see it, why waste time and energy fighting something that probably can't happen. Instead, find a way to accomplish the goal while avoiding the time wasting fight.

September archery only hunts on CWMU's would definitely make a difference in quality, but I don't see that it will ever happen. CWMU's and landowners also have organizations and they would put up a fight.

As far as the fence, I don't know much about it. But, I really doubt that the purpose is to trap deer. If there are laws against building an 8' fence on private property, then the law needs to deal with that.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Brian,

It makes me feel good that SFW donated a bow for our banquet too. Many of our members are also members of SFW and have donated plenty. That doesn't mean we have to agree with everything they do or stand for. They footed the bill for the project, we provided the manpower. Is your last comment sarcastic or sincere? Maybe both? Just like I can be a member and be involved with the group but not agree with all they do. Especially their backing of big money hunters like Tony says. That project nor a hundred like it will begin to repair or make up for what the deer herd will loose to big money the first week of September around Alton - What it has lost since the introduction of the CWMU. That is my opinion, and the opinion of many who are close to the situation.

That doesn't mean we aren't trying to work with the Alton boys to bridge the gap. We have put some requests in writing and have been in contact with the CWMU president since the start of our group. He knows exactly how we feel and we him. For the most part we disagree wholeheartedly and it is abundantly obvious that change or progress will be slow. We still hash it out though and I hope at some future point there will be enough deer again to go around; enough for him to make his money and for average hunters to get a fair shake. Right now it is the latter that is suffering. What has been missing over the past fifteen years is a good trophy management objective for the unit by the DWR. They are now in place and progress is being made toward a trophy unit again.

We are going to request a change in hunt dates as soon as the biologist feels the unit can handle it. I spoke at length with him, SFW and Color Country Outfitters about that this spring and all seemed supportive of the idea. The DWR was less receptive because of manpower restrictions so we got a pledge from our Sheriff that will double or triple law enforcement on the unit during the hunt. We raised the money to pay officers for their time and help in any other way we can.

As far as speculating about transplanted deer that are genetically dependant upon alfalfa, I won't. Don?t know. Thanks for the response. Maybe we CAN all get along and work together though. I just want my childhood back ? thirty bucks on an evening ride with five or six pushing thirty, cheaters, inlines etc. We are not that far away. I just hope we maintain it once we have it again. Don?t even care if I get to hunt the unit again. I'd just like to put in and be damn EXCITED again for two or three months until notified unsuccessful. It's probably too much to ask.

kg
 
Hi Klint,

I was definitely sincere in my comments, not at all sarcastic. As an SFW member, I always enjoy seeing well spent money, just like any member would.

It's good to hear your making headway down there. It means much to me also. My wife and step-mother have the points to draw at anytime now.

The biggest beef I have with any CWMU is the fact that I can't scout and I have to come in after the high dollar guys. I'd love to draw a CWMU, scout it and let my wife hunt September 1st, but that won't happen. So, CWMU's are out of the question for us. Scouting is part of the hunt for me.

Good luck!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents. I hunted the Alton cwmu in 1999 with a management tag. I took what is still my biggest buck on Sept 23rd with a rifle. I was treated like a king although they got a fraction of the $$ from me that they do from their clients. The reason they have rifle hunts in Sept is because the deer have migrated off the ranch by Oct 15. My best hunting experience of my life and the Heatons were as enjoyable to be around as any I've met.

My friend drew a public tag on the ranch this year. He had the option of hunting first week or last week of Sept. Chose last week. Although the herds aren't what they were, I am confident that this will be one of the best hunts of his life. Times change and everything around us does also. We have to adapt to it. Sometimes we can't change as fast and then we play catchup. But if we are mature enough to work together then we can adapt and will see progress.
Yelum
 
Fishon

Thanks for clearing the air, it seems your response was a popular one.

I wonder if we are going to hear from MR. Bair on this one, after all he is the Prez.

Todd
 
3 INCH -

RE:

"Should have increased the permits this year because next year will be too late."

Boy are a game management minded sportsman. "hey boys, let's kill em all before them outtastaters come"

what an idiot!!
 

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