Mule Deer, Elk and Western Big Game Hunting - MonsterMuleys.com

More Mule Deer!

 
Previous Topic | Next Topic 
Forums Mule Deer
Original Message

Founder
(6031 posts)
Click to EMail Founder Click to send private message to Founder Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
09:16 AM (MST)
"More Mule Deer!"

How about this topic. We all want to hunt, and we all want to hunt good quality. At this point, it can't happen because the resource (bucks) are limited. So for years, states have made changes to reduce harvest by limiting season lengths and tag numbers.

Technology, time and dedication to hunting trophy bucks is what put us in the situation we're in where tags are so hard to come by.
Is there a way to utilize technology and time to increase deer numbers that would therefore increase tag numbers?

Over the last 50-60 years since our mule deer numbers across the west peaked, what has changed to drive numbers down? Deer summer range has decrease a little, but in my opinion the biggest change is the amount of winter range available for the game. It's nowhere near what it was in the 1960's. So wouldn't many of you agree that quantity of winter range and quality of winter range are some of the biggest limiting factors for mule deer?

If that's the case, what could be done to replace that winter range in order to increase deer numbers?

How about feeding deer? I know it's a hot debate on whether it works or not, but if it could work and could work financially, wouldn't it be awesome to do it and double our deer herds?

I made a smartbutt comment in another thread about drones dropping feed pellets for deer in remote areas. But how far fetched is such an idea? Could the technology be used to increase buck numbers versus only reducing it?
What possibly could be done to increase deer herds and maintain it?

Let's hear some comments.


We need more bucks like this one

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!

  Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top


  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: More Mule ...  Soj51hopefu...      Apr-21-17   1 
  RE: More Mule ...  Tristate      Apr-21-17   2 
   RE: More Mule ...  jm77      Apr-21-17   3 
   RE: More Mule ...  Soj51hopefu...      Apr-21-17   4 
   RE: More Mule ...  buckhorn      Apr-21-17   5 
    RE: More Mule ...  Deerlove      Apr-21-17   6 
     RE: More Mule ...  wstrntines      Apr-21-17   7 
      RE: More Mule ...  wstrntines      Apr-21-17   10 
     RE: More Mule ...  fullthrottle      Apr-21-17   8 
      RE: More Mule ...  Hunt_the_We...      Apr-21-17   14 
   RE: More Mule ...  travishunte...      Apr-21-17   9 
 RE: More Mule ...  notellumrid...      Apr-21-17   11 
  RE: More Mule ...  fullthrottle      Apr-21-17   12 
  RE: More Mule ...  bugleb      Apr-21-17   13 
  RE: More Mule ...  rocky2track      Apr-21-17   15 
 RE: More Mule ...  rocky2track      Apr-21-17   16 
 RE: More Mule ...  eelgrass      Apr-21-17   17 
  RE: More Mule ...  Togwotee      Apr-21-17   18 
   RE: More Mule ...  appaloosa      Apr-21-17   19 
    RE: More Mule ...  Homer      Apr-21-17   20 
     RE: More Mule ...  fullthrottle      Apr-21-17   21 
      RE: More Mule ...  HiMtnHntr      Apr-22-17   22 
 RE: More Mule ...  mossback50c...      Apr-22-17   23 
  RE: More Mule ...  fullthrottle      Apr-22-17   24 
   RE: More Mule ...  YBO      Apr-22-17   25 
    RE: More Mule ...  smitty      Apr-22-17   27 
   RE: More Mule ...  BRW300      Apr-22-17   26 
    RE: More Mule ...  Founder      Apr-22-17   28 
     RE: More Mule ...  schoolhouse...      Apr-23-17   29 
     RE: More Mule ...  fullthrottle      Apr-23-17   30 
      RE: More Mule ...  JustMuleys      Apr-23-17   32 
     RE: More Mule ...  Longun      Apr-23-17   34 
 RE: More Mule ...  BillyBoB      Apr-23-17   31 
  RE: More Mule ...  dragonshed      Apr-23-17   33 
   RE: More Mule ...  faultcurrent      Apr-23-17   35 
 RE: More Mule ...  ByeByeObamas      Apr-23-17   36 
  RE: More Mule ...  2lumpy      Apr-23-17   37 
   RE: More Mule ...  piper      Apr-24-17   38 
    RE: More Mule ...  Togwotee      Apr-24-17   39 
     RE: More Mule ...  nripepi      Apr-24-17   40 
 RE: More Mule ...  mulecreek      Apr-24-17   41 
  RE: More Mule ...  2lumpy      Apr-24-17   42 
 RE: More Mule ...  eelgrass      Apr-24-17   43 
  RE: More Mule ...  fullthrottle      Apr-24-17   44 
   RE: More Mule ...  YBO      Apr-24-17   45 
    RE: More Mule ...  2lumpy      Apr-24-17   46 
     RE: More Mule ...  YBO      Apr-25-17   47 
      RE: More Mule ...  2lumpy      Apr-25-17   49 
     RE: More Mule ...  Hawkeye      Apr-25-17   48 
      RE: More Mule ...  dirtygrass      Apr-25-17   50 
       RE: More Mule ...  Packout      Apr-25-17   51 
       RE: More Mule ...  YBO      Apr-25-17   52 
        RE: More Mule ...  faultcurrent      Apr-25-17   53 
         RE: More Mule ...  DW      Apr-25-17   54 
          RE: More Mule ...  faultcurrent      Apr-25-17   55 
           RE: More Mule ...  YBO      Apr-25-17   56 
            RE: More Mule ...  fullthrottle      Apr-25-17   57 
             RE: More Mule ...  mmwb      Apr-26-17   58 
              RE: More Mule ...  huntin50      Apr-27-17   59 

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

  Messages in this topic  

Soj51hopefull
(520 posts)
Click to EMail Soj51hopefull Click to send private message to Soj51hopefull Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
09:32 AM (MST)
1. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Burn

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Tristate
(4031 posts)
Click to EMail Tristate Click to send private message to Tristate Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
10:11 AM (MST)
2. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Great topic Founder. I have brought this up many times only to be met with anger, but it is a realization that many of us are coming to.

Wildlife, politics, and hunting are dynamic and in constant change. We on the other hand have been resisting these changes for the last three decades and it has made for dwindling herds and increased competition at the food trough.

YES, a lot needs to be done and A LOT OF MONEY SPENT to increase carrying capacity and in turn augment the deer herds. That isn't just handing out feed but making accessible food factories. Managing water, and habitat. A complete overhaul of tag allotments and game laws has to occur also.

You feel it Founder. That's why you just posted this thread. Things aren't good for western hunting and you know they are getting worse. Drastic widespread action has to occur for us to get this ride back on track.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jm77
(1041 posts)
Click to EMail jm77 Click to send private message to jm77 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
10:32 AM (MST)
3. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Sorry if I don't take this post seriously, but since what Founder and Tri want will take more money than any agency has, here's an idea:

We instruct all wildlife agencies to locate all the trophy muley bucks in their states, dart them and put radio collars on them. Then, they sell the GPS coordinates to the highest bidder.

Money, money, money; that's all it takes.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Soj51hopefull
(520 posts)
Click to EMail Soj51hopefull Click to send private message to Soj51hopefull Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
10:33 AM (MST)
4. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Tri I hope you aren't going to turn this into private ownership of public lands argument again. The cost isn't that great if people would realize the science of managing our forest properly. Log and burn. Logging would offset some cost to control burn. The general population just needs to be educated to accept this. Even the environmental wackos are admitting the forests are too thick.

The original question of founders idea using drones for winter feeding for extreme circumstances like this year I think is great.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

buckhorn
(353 posts)
Click to EMail buckhorn Click to send private message to buckhorn Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
10:40 AM (MST)
5. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-17 AT 10:43 AM (MST)

The human population increase into mule deer winter range is a huge factor. Also the high-tech long range hunting equipment we have now is definitely putting the hurts on the mature class of bucks. Take the video Of the hard-working hunters four instance. They hunted almost 30 days in the grays River country and the best buck they killed was only a 187. I really don't see any way of reversing this trend I am afraid we will just have to face the reality of it.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Deerlove
(4021 posts)
Click to EMail Deerlove Click to send private message to Deerlove Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
10:43 AM (MST)
6. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Sorry we need more weapon restrictions, were too good a killing stuff. IMO

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

wstrntines
(572 posts)
Click to EMail wstrntines Click to send private message to wstrntines Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
11:38 AM (MST)
7. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

We need to be careful on technology we've gotten better at killing trophy big game because all the great conveniances of technology. I think we need to feed proactively in the winter vs reactively. And we need to block building on winter range property those are a few ideas I think we need to do.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

wstrntines
(572 posts)
Click to EMail wstrntines Click to send private message to wstrntines Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
03:24 PM (MST)
10. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Full throttle I do agree with the supplementation as well. And I'm glad you shined light on predator control I failed to mention it and yes predatory numbers left unchecked can be a disaster on herds.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

fullthrottle
(435 posts)
Click to EMail fullthrottle Click to send private message to fullthrottle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
11:45 AM (MST)
8. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Predators play a huge role in my opinion. Coyotes are everywhere, Cats seem way over populated in many areas, and golden eagles are fawn killing machines. The list goes on and on, the odds are really heavily stacked against a mule deer's survival. I know they are two separate critters, but don't you find it interesting that all we hear over and over again is how the human population continues to encroach on the mule deer habitat, and I agree it is, but the vast majority of areas hasn't hardly changed in 50 years. Lots of rural areas out west are the same they have always been. And yet the whitetails are thriving particularly out east where the human populations are way higher than out west. Kind of interesting, they kill way more deer, have more highways, more development, longer seasons, etc. What is the X factor... well let's see, they supplement there deer (heavily) which we are told over and over is bad for the deer, very few cats, if any, control there coyotes. Hmm?? Very interesting isn't it. So in a nutshell, you have to keep the predators in check, feed them when they are hungry, and build them some over passes so they can get around. Then I believe you will see mule deer herds thrive again. I agree technology has made it much easier to kill a mature deer once you locate them. But you don't think the guys out east are doing and using the same fancy gear we are? Huh, hell they invented it. Yet they grow big bucks every year, not only that, but trophy whitetail hunting continues to get better and better. Maybe we need to start doing what they have been doing for years, and have proven how well a little supplementation works. This might be stretching it a little, but look what humans are emphasizing and eating now to become more physical and healthy specimens... supplements. Just saying. Now I will get the "you aren't a biologist, you don't know squat" remark, your right, I'm not, just trying to use a little common sense. And not all the global warming, biological, scientific BS they keep trying to sale. Ha, how do you like them apples?

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hunt_the_West
(86 posts)
Click to EMail Hunt_the_West Click to send private message to Hunt_the_West Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
04:39 PM (MST)
14. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Full,

I understand the analogy you are making, but the whitetails are mostly managed on private lands. The public land whitetails are not doing quite as well, but yes still better than the muleys.

The long range rifle and technology aren't going anywhere, but in my opinion the game and fish shouldn't issue a tag if they didn't plan on it being filled.

point restrictions except for youth would help.

Investing in winter range improvement and/or feeding programs/studies.

Speaking of money, raise resident tag fees. Im sure that'll piss people off but I'd gladly pay more for my resident tags if it meant improving the herds which in turn improved hunting. Hell I usually buy/draw a couple NR tags every year and yes I complain about costs but my complaint is the fact that res tags are 1/10th of what the NR tag is. I've heard more than one resident in various states complain about paying $150 TOTAL for an elk, deer, and lope tag!! Then turn around and say the DOW should do more to improve habitat. I just shake my head and walk away because I learned a long time ago you aren't going to change their mind.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

travishunter3006
(1649 posts)
Click to EMail travishunter3006 Click to send private message to travishunter3006 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
11:49 AM (MST)
9. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

>Great topic Founder. I have
>brought this up many times
>only to be met with
>anger, but it is a
>realization that many of us
>are coming to.
>
>Wildlife, politics, and hunting are dynamic
>and in constant change.
>We on the other hand
>have been resisting these changes
>for the last three decades
>and it has made for
>dwindling herds and increased competition
>at the food trough.
>
>YES, a lot needs to be
>done and A LOT OF
>MONEY SPENT to increase carrying
>capacity and in turn augment
>the deer herds. That
>isn't just handing out feed
>but making accessible food factories.
> Managing water, and habitat.
> A complete overhaul of
>tag allotments and game laws
>has to occur also.
>
>You feel it Founder. That's
>why you just posted this
>thread. Things aren't good
>for western hunting and you
>know they are getting worse.
> Drastic widespread action has
>to occur for us to
>get this ride back on
>track.

You're met with anger because of delivery. I like drinking milk but I don't want it delivered in an old Pepsi bottle coming out of a truck driver's backpack. Repackage your delivery Tri and you'll find success.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

notellumridge
(1 posts)
Click to EMail notellumridge Click to send private message to notellumridge Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
04:04 PM (MST)
11. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

In Wyoming, I would like to see the Game and Fish change the regulations back to what they were in the good old days when a buck had to be 4pts or better to be legal. Back then deer were plentiful, and the younger less experienced bucks stood a better chance at reaching maturity. Such regulation changes would still allow hunters a chance to hunt, which I think is what most hunters want. I would much rather be required to be more selective in what I hunt than see my state go to a lottery or preference draw system for everyone.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

fullthrottle
(435 posts)
Click to EMail fullthrottle Click to send private message to fullthrottle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
04:31 PM (MST)
12. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

^^^good luck with that^^^ that's another one of those biological/science theories, that crap has been proven not to work. That being said, I'm with ya. I like the idea of point restrictions. One of the main reasons that plan gets shot down is because guys will kill smaller bucks and leave them lay. Well that would be a lot harder to get away with in the world we live in now, so throw that excuse out the window. I have heard it is harder on the big, mature deer in the end, because guys that would be happy shooting the first 2 point they see no longer have that option and end up sticking around longer only to kill a nice basket racked 4 point, that with a couple more years of age could have been a dandy. I say BS, the older they get, the smarter they get. Give them some age and there will be more mature deer that breed and survive. I'm going to have to change my name after all these know it all opinionated post I've been let fly. I'm sorry, I just don't think it is as scientific as they make it out to be.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

bugleb
(83 posts)
Click to EMail bugleb Click to send private message to bugleb Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
04:35 PM (MST)
13. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

It is obvious that the big buck situation will only keep getting worse unless something changes. Things will never be as good as we hope, but the situation sure could be improved.

If big game was treated more like a business, there would be a lot more feeding, more predator control, and there would no killing of buck fawns or yearling bucks by hunters. (ranchers don't starve their herds in the winter, or tolerate predators killing their beef, and they don't eat calves. If they did those things they would be out of business in a hurry).

I don't know how anybody except a kid can get any satisfaction killing a two point. There isn't that much meat on one of them compared to a nice mature buck, and there is no trophy value.

To me, a thirty to forty inch buck is worth more than 1000 two points, so why not let them grow? Well we know why, its the widespread attitude that "if I don't shoot it, somebody else will, so if it's legal, it's going down." It is just sad and pathetic.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

rocky2track
(6 posts)
Click to EMail rocky2track Click to send private message to rocky2track Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
04:42 PM (MST)
15. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

>In Wyoming, I would like to
>see the Game and Fish
>change the regulations back to
>what they were in the
>good old days when a
>buck had to be 4pts
>or better to be legal.
> Back then deer were
>plentiful, and the younger less
>experienced bucks stood a better
>chance at reaching maturity.
>Such regulation changes would still
>allow hunters a chance to
>hunt, which I think is
>what most hunters want.
>I would much rather be
>required to be more selective
>in what I hunt than
>see my state go to
>a lottery or preference draw
>system for everyone.

And back in the good ole days mule deer did not have the pressures they do in today's world. Wyoming is getting a 3 point antler restriction for 2017 and probably 2018. However, this will be reconsidered once deer start to recover. It is known that ~+/-45% of 2 year old bucks have 4 pts. So, should we allow a hunt that forces those hunters who don't care about the size of the buck they are willing to kill to target these 2 year old bucks? What about some of these mature 3 point bucks that can be harvested, but then cannot be harvested. IMHO, 4 point restrictions are not a solution to solving deer numbers. Habitat condition & limited hunter participation will put more deer in the hills in today's environment.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

rocky2track
(6 posts)
Click to EMail rocky2track Click to send private message to rocky2track Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
05:08 PM (MST)
16. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

>Over the last 50-60 years since
>our mule deer numbers across
>the west peaked, what has
>changed to drive numbers down?
>Deer summer range has decrease
>a little, but in my
>opinion the biggest change is
>the amount of winter range
>available for the game. It's
>nowhere near what it was
>in the 1960's. So wouldn't
>many of you agree that
>quantity of winter range and
>quality of winter range are
>some of the biggest limiting
>factors for mule deer?
>
>If that's the case, what could
>be done to replace that
>winter range in order to
>increase deer numbers?
>

Currently the BLM and G&F are doing a habitat study on fertilizing certain sagebrush communities on winter ranges around Big Piney, WY to see if they can stimulate more forage for wintering deer. Its not feeding with drones, but flying 1000's of acres of sagebrush and fertilizing is something that could improve habitat. Just how much habitat can be fertilized though if it proves effective at growing and improving forage? Would it be cheaper than feeding deer in the winter? Perhaps it would only need to be done on 2 year or more cycles? There's millions of acres to fertilize if the program is proven to improve mule deer forage and getting enough rain is always a key factor in growing good habitat during the short growing seasons at elevations above 6000 feet.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

eelgrass
(19576 posts)
Click to EMail eelgrass Click to send private message to eelgrass Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
06:35 PM (MST)
17. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

It seems to me it's a lot easier to feed whitetails. They live in a core area and don't migrate too much.

Based on my experience as a blacktail hunter, I'm a big advocate of burns and logging. Deer like transition areas for feeding. Small,very deliberate, well thought out control burning on a rotation would ensure continual prime feed. Make tons of edge habitat. Maybe do some planting after a burn with bitterbrush, etc. Both summer and winter range. Nature feeds the deer best.

Of course, the best food in the world is no good if it's under 3' of snow.

And for crying out loud, leave the deer ALONE. We used to have a rifle season. Now we harass the poor deer for archery, muzzle loader, and rifle. And then chase them around hunting shed antlers. Give them a break and they'll do a lot better, IMO.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Togwotee
(4993 posts)
Click to EMail Togwotee Click to send private message to Togwotee Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
07:35 PM (MST)
18. "RE: More Mule Deer!"


Tag cuts.

Winter feeding programs.

Predator control.

These 3 things are the most important factors in mule deer recovery in my opinion. all it would take is the will and the funding, unfortunately 90% of hunters would rather look for excuses to sit on their thumbs and their wallets than join in.


If hunters had the drive and determination the wolf lovers have we'd not be having this discussion.

Stay Thirsty My Friends

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

appaloosa
(106 posts)
Click to EMail appaloosa Click to send private message to appaloosa Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
08:17 PM (MST)
19. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

We need to start managing ourselves!

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Homer
(2507 posts)
Click to EMail Homer Click to send private message to Homer Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
08:51 PM (MST)
20. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

....50 years of compound 1080 would do it again....it is just never going to happen.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

fullthrottle
(435 posts)
Click to EMail fullthrottle Click to send private message to fullthrottle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-21-17, 
08:59 PM (MST)
21. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

^^^yep^^^

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

HiMtnHntr
(1705 posts)
Click to EMail HiMtnHntr Click to send private message to HiMtnHntr Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-22-17, 
06:46 AM (MST)
22. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

The amount of winter range is certainly a limiting factor. But, I've seen deer numbers dwindle in areas with plenty of winter range. There are a lot more variables to consider, such as how the quality of the forage base has changed, predators, elk, pressure year round from people, more efficient human access, more efficient hunting (killing) methods etc... it's a different world now, and this includes the "natural world". When a deer herd can't survive without continual feeding from humans I'd say that herd is in real trouble.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

mossback50cal
(464 posts)
Click to EMail mossback50cal Click to send private message to mossback50cal Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-22-17, 
01:46 PM (MST)
23. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Something I am just throwing out there... What if todays emphasis on trophy hunting is causing it? People who would not be hunting except for the thrill of killing a trophy. In the 60s and 70s most people were meat hunters. Did not care about the antlers because they were putting food on the table. How many does can a yearling forkie breed compared to a mature buck? I am just curious on this one, because I see only three things that have changed; human population, technology, and the change between meat hunting to trophy emphasis now. Since the others have been mentioned, I just thought Id throw out the last one.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

fullthrottle
(435 posts)
Click to EMail fullthrottle Click to send private message to fullthrottle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-22-17, 
03:23 PM (MST)
24. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Mmmm, I would say that has very little negative effect if any. I could be wrong, but I would think hunters holding out for a big buck would actually help the population and trophy quality when it's all said and done. Now shooting to many bucks and not allowing them to have the ability to reload, that's a problem.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

YBO
(1522 posts)
Click to EMail YBO Click to send private message to YBO Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-22-17, 
04:02 PM (MST)
25. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

+1 Throttle. I couldn't tell you how many tags I've have thrown in the trash. I think most trophy hunters will not squeeze the trigger if they can't round up a great one. That's a positive thing.
The number one primary reason for the decline in my home state is easy, predators, predators and more predators. The bottom of the list would be loss of habitat and human encroachment. So, with the chance of having LEO officers knocking at MT door...SSS

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

smitty
(1573 posts)
Click to EMail smitty Click to send private message to smitty Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-22-17, 
04:28 PM (MST)
27. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

This topic continues to come up and everyone argues their opinion.

At this point in wildlife conservation, with over 100 years of documented systems, there should be no more wondering or guessing as to what to do.

Wildlife agencies and their wildlife "models" are flawed and fail more often than not.

And we as the general public have such short attention spans that we just play along.

It's pathetic.

Why is it such a riddle to run our wildlife?

Same thing goes for politics and governments, after all this time, after all of documented human history, after all the different kinds of governments, tyranical, socialist, republics, democracies, etc...........We still wonder WTF is best?!?!

LMAO.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

BRW300
(4 posts)
Click to EMail BRW300 Click to send private message to BRW300 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-22-17, 
04:24 PM (MST)
26. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

In my opinion the following would help,

1. Dont go down the road of supplemental feeding unless its a
severe winter. We have truly lost something if you turn these
deer into a bunch of forlorn critters looking for a handout.
There are harder but better solutions.

2. An old gov. trapper told me how effective 1080 was in
controlling predators. Now the control methods just dont
work. Millions of dollars are spent flying around in
helicopters trying to shoot coyotes risking peoples lives.
You cant shoot enough coyotes to ever really get a
handle on them. There needs to be better methods allowed
especially on coyotes.

3. Heavier penalties for poachers.

4. Increase resident tag fees and get rid of selling deer to the
highest bidder. How many people here know what was done with
the money from the last statewide auction tag?

5. Burn the PJ!!! Plant bitter brush...thats what the deer want
not feed out of a bag.

6. Limit tags, People are predators too, one reason why there may
have been so many deer in the 50s and 60s is all the guys were
out fighting in war before and during these periods. My dad
was a kid during this time and told me that there were so many
deer that on opening day there was not any time during the day
you could not hear a gunshot.

7. Just a few thoughts..I could go on but I want to thank
Founder and the others for their ideas!


  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Founder
(6031 posts)
Click to EMail Founder Click to send private message to Founder Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-22-17, 
11:13 PM (MST)
28. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

"Limit tags"??!!?? That kind of defeats the purpose of the thread. The reason I'd like to see more deer is so that we can all hunt deer more often, not just every few years in many places.
You know what I mean?

Sportsmen compete more among each other than against the game we pursue because opportunity is so limited, and it only gets worse. Technology will continue to help us have better success against the game we pursue, and to counter that tags will continue to need to be reduced to maintain quality. Right?
So, I would think we either need to reduce success rates or increase overall game numbers. Probably both. But if we're doing neither, then the only thing left is reduce harvest (less hunters) to maintain quality.

I sure hate to see less tags in places I like to hunt. You know??

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

schoolhousegrizz
(650 posts)
Click to EMail schoolhousegrizz Click to send private message to schoolhousegrizz Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
12:04 PM (MST)
29. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Burn, plant sage brush,feed. Whatever it takes. If drones could help, use them.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

fullthrottle
(435 posts)
Click to EMail fullthrottle Click to send private message to fullthrottle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
12:06 PM (MST)
30. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

How about an archery only hunt in western Wyoming, or how about more archery only hunts everywhere. Give hunters the opportunity to get out more and lower the overall success rate. Don't get me wrong I love a good rifle hunt, but might provide more opportunity without paying the price population wise.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

JustMuleys
(331 posts)
Click to EMail JustMuleys Click to send private message to JustMuleys Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
02:42 PM (MST)
32. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-17 AT 02:43 PM (MST)

To me it's all about the Doe. Protect the Doe, increase fawn survival and the numbers start to increase.
1 buck does pretty good at covering a substantial number of does. I believe the more does the more fawns, and of course I believe it's like 52% of those fawns will be bucks. So more Does to me is the key to increased buck #'s. Imagine 80-90% fawn recruitment for 3-4 years.

PEHAPS- more of these would help. would help, I don't know.
1. Increased predator control
2. Range management ( Burns, chaining, etc)
3. Road crossing corridors. there are tons of Does killed on the roads around here.


I don't believe tag reductions, point restrictions, or generally focusing on bucks issues have done anything to help increase deer numbers in the last 20 years.

Anyhow my 2 cents.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Longun
(3221 posts)
Click to EMail Longun Click to send private message to Longun Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
05:34 PM (MST)
34. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

The only way you are going to have more mule deer is to get the human population down to early 19th century stats...its time for WWIII......pretty crude but its the truth...

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

BillyBoB
(450 posts)
Click to EMail BillyBoB Click to send private message to BillyBoB Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
02:15 PM (MST)
31. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Founder stated
"Technology, time and dedication to hunting trophy bucks is what put us in the situation we're in where tags are so hard to come by."

I would agree that technology has helped with harvest success but time and dedication to hunt trophy bucks would actually help populations. Strictly hunting trophy mule deer would mean eating tag soup more than not. We all know how hard trophy bucks are to come by. Which is why I haven't filled a deer tag in over 5 years. Boone and Crockett club has even put a video together regarding the impacts on mule deer populations involving trophy hunting.

If I was a meat hunter and not a trophy hunter, I don't think I would have ever gone a year without bringing home a deer.

I know people giving SFW more money wont increase tag numbers.

"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

dragonshed
(52 posts)
Click to EMail dragonshed Click to send private message to dragonshed Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
03:21 PM (MST)
33. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Predator control. If you think about it the heyday of the mule deer was the 50s and 60s. Just prior to that we had waged war against predators for decades. I don't think it's coincidence that deer numbers were at historic highs after that.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

faultcurrent
(83 posts)
Click to EMail faultcurrent Click to send private message to faultcurrent Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
07:40 PM (MST)
35. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

>Predator control. If you think about
>it the heyday of the
>mule deer was the 50s
>and 60s. Just prior to
>that we had waged war
>against predators for decades. I
>don't think it's coincidence that
>deer numbers were at historic
>highs after that.


Lot less people back then. Truck's couldnt get as far back. Open sight rifles. Lot more habitat. Less roads.

But yeah, its those damn predators ;)

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

ByeByeObamas
(26 posts)
Click to EMail ByeByeObamas Click to send private message to ByeByeObamas Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
08:19 PM (MST)
36. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-17 AT 09:26 PM (MST)

Good point

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

2lumpy
(2645 posts)
Click to EMail 2lumpy Click to send private message to 2lumpy Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-23-17, 
09:29 PM (MST)
37. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

What percentage of the total number of mule deer in your State are on private property, during the hunting season?

On average, on a deer per acre count, are there more does, and fawns on private property or public land?

If you owned a 100,000 acres adjacent to a 100,000 acres of public land, would you have more or less total deer or would there be more deer on the public land, next to yours?

If you have hunted private land and public land, where did you encounter a larger number of deer, on the private or the public land?

In the future, do you believe there will be more deer on private property or on public land?

How you answer these questions will answer many of your questions, regarding how we can have more deer.

DC

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

piper
(5084 posts)
Click to EMail piper Click to send private message to piper Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
08:18 AM (MST)
38. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

I think every thing said on here pointing out the problem has some merit, it's complicated to say the least.
The weather has a lot to do with deer populations also.

Most all of these reasons for the decline in hunting quality have no fix.
Stick a fork in it and turn it over. It's done.

My personal fix is to rarely hunt deer, unless I get some really restricted hunt area in a place where I enjoy being out in the county. I don't spend my precious time hunting deer. I have already wasted too much time doing that over the last 20 Years.
I Will focus on other species, Elk hunting is still usually a quality experience, as are pronghorns and practically every other western. species of big game.

Don't get me wrong. It sickens me to see what has happened to mule deer hunting, but I realize there isn't anyway to fix it.
Technology, plant evolution, weather , human population growth, none of that can be changed significantly.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Togwotee
(4993 posts)
Click to EMail Togwotee Click to send private message to Togwotee Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
08:56 AM (MST)
39. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Founder I get what you're saying, but getting deer numbers to the point we want them without cutting tags is unrealistic. it also unrealistic to think we won't always have to limit tags at or lower than where they are today if we want quality.

In my opinion, hunting is supposed to be a game management tool. if there is no excess there is no hunting. here in eastern OR that would mean most deer hunting would be closed this year, and while a few units will see cuts all units will see hunting this fall. our deer hunting has become a joke.

This needs to be more about the resource and less about me. if we go at it from that angle we'll get there and we'll get there faster.


Stay Thirsty My Friends

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

nripepi
(892 posts)
Click to EMail nripepi Click to send private message to nripepi Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
10:28 AM (MST)
40. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

I think those talking about cutting buck tags and going to primitive weapons are a bit off base. In my opinion, it is all about the does and fawns. If the majority of the does are getting pregnant (meaning we have the correct buck to doe ratio to allow for the majority of does to become pregnant in their first cycle in mid to late November so the majority of fawns are born in early June) then the biggest issue I see is fawn recruitment. If the fawns live, then we'll have more bucks to hunt and more does to have more bucks...

So how do you increase fawn recruitment? First, you have to figure out how fawns die and what % take those fawns:

1. Predators after they are born in the month of June.
2. Predators throughout their early life.
3. Lack of feed on the winter range
4. Not being able to access the feed on the winter range because of snow and ice.
5. Getting hit by a car near the winter range.

Solutions to each:

1. Predator control specifically during June. Would specific coyote or bear hunting during June near "calfing" areas help put pressure on the predators that they could not find as many young deer then? What if you baited them heavily during the time fawns dropped so they were not looking for the fawns?
2. Liberal predator seasons and bag limits on bears, lions, wolves and coyotes. Perhaps a bounty on coyotes to encourage hunting them?
3. Improve the winter range through planting, burns, fertilizing...
4. Supplemental feeding during tough winters.
5. Overpasses and underpasses for animal crossings. Fencing. Warning signs for motorists. Reduced speed for motorists during certain times of year.

Many of these five are being done and that is the reason I am very hopeful and even encouraged that the deer will rebound as long as they are not continuously pounded by hard winter after hard winter.

If the problem is does becoming pregnant, then that is a different issue and is likely linked to buck to doe ratio where you need to cut tags. If that is not an issue, then I do not see why buck tags need to be cut. Actually killing more bucks could allow the does better feed on the winter range.

I have heard that some areas in Colorado are having a problem with cow elk becoming pregnant. Likely that is because the bull to cow ratio is too low or to much hunting pressure during the rut. I believe we will see more draw units versus OTC because of this.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

mulecreek
(870 posts)
Click to EMail mulecreek Click to send private message to mulecreek Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
10:40 AM (MST)
41. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Founder,

Your idea is catching fire.

http://trib.com/lifestyles/recreation/congress-considers-bill-to-reward-private-industry-for-solutions-to/article_6df6268f-01cc-54bf-93bf-de994d2602db.html

$100,000 will get you a few drones, food bundles and sweaters for the deer.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

2lumpy
(2645 posts)
Click to EMail 2lumpy Click to send private message to 2lumpy Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
12:05 PM (MST)
42. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Togwotee said,

" getting deer numbers to the point we want them without cutting tags is unrealistic. it also unrealistic"

"to think we won't always have to limit tags"

"hunting is supposed to be a game management tool"

"no excess there is no hunting"

AND HIS MOST IMPORTANT STATEMENT, REGARDLESS OF ANY OTHER ANY OF US CAN MAKE, IN OUR DESIRE TO HUNT MULE DEER IS:

"This needs to be more about the resource and less about me"

However, in spite of his insightful understanding and succinct articulation, a few sportsmen have been screaming these things for nearly 30 years now, and our mule deer populations have continue to spiral down, with a odd year or two of weather related pauses, in the decline.

There will be a time, in the next 20/30 years when the only hunt-able mule deer left in North American will be on private property. The public land, if we have any left, will be nearly devoid of mule deer, unless, for some inexplicable reason there is a profound change in the public's attitude, including the bureaucracy's, the non-hunter and the sport hunter.

How are you betting.

DC

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

eelgrass
(19576 posts)
Click to EMail eelgrass Click to send private message to eelgrass Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
12:36 PM (MST)
43. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

We can put a man on the moon, cure polio, and feed 330 million people with lots of food to spare and.....

We could have as many mule deer as the land could reasonably carry if we had the will, but we have too many special interests involved to make that happen. We can't cut tags, we can't control predators (in fact there is a push to increase the number of predators), we can't improve habitat, and we can't put a cap on harvest technology. So we'll have to live with what we got and watch it slowly diminish.

We can always blame it on no cutthroat trout and man made global warming.

Realistically, piper has it figured out.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

fullthrottle
(435 posts)
Click to EMail fullthrottle Click to send private message to fullthrottle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
01:47 PM (MST)
44. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Damn, this turned into a depressing thread in a hurry. So it sounds like most guys are just fine settling and accepting the slow decline of the Muleys. That's about par for my generation, nobody wants to put in a little elbow grease and expects everything for nothing. Bunch of sissy's!

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

YBO
(1522 posts)
Click to EMail YBO Click to send private message to YBO Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
04:33 PM (MST)
45. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-17 AT 04:39 PM (MST)

Sissy is right. Sometimes you can't fight city hall. So, just maybe we need to be more proactive like not shooting that 23" buck. Or, shoot every damn predator you see. Or, drive a bit slower at certain times of the year. Or, report any and all suspicious activities related to hunting. Join a conservation organization like SFW, MDF or RMEF. Just do something.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

2lumpy
(2645 posts)
Click to EMail 2lumpy Click to send private message to 2lumpy Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-24-17, 
04:50 PM (MST)
46. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

A handful have been pounding the rock since the mid 80's, but I understand you most likely aren't aware of that.

You're living with the fruits of our labors right now. Not everyone........ threw in the towel, 40 years ago. On the contrary, we put miles, meetings, ground work, political campaigns, money, spent personal reputation capital, and a fair amount of hard capital into the effort, as we saw this decline begin, not in the 90's but in the 1980's, when those of us close enough to it say it coming. Most didn't do much, for any of a few million individual reasons and excuses. I should say, all but a few could have cared less, or won't consider setting their individual wants and needs aside, to preserve and propagate mule deer.

If you are willing to take over the cat herding, I have nothing but respect for you and I hope with all sincerity, that you can do ten fold better than the last generation of hunters, including myself, have done growing the mule deer population. My generttion started with millions of mule deer in the Western States and WE allowed it to dwindle to hardly a few hundred thousand. You can blame us, because we are the ones to blame. We had it and we blow it.

I would caution you, however, do not create any kind of organization and do not attempt to influence bureaucratic organizations, systems, or agencies, if you value your sanity and you and your extended family's reputation. Be prepared to be labeled a crook, a crony, a douche, a schemer, a scammer, an ego maniac, an anti-public hunter, an anti-joe average, and a dozen or two other insulting human characteristic.

Learn to be motivated by the audits, the hearings, the accusations, the news media investigations, the back stabbing from your friends as well as total strangers, not to mention your out right enemies, from both the hunting community as aggressively and as bitter as the anti-hunting public. Get used to folks from thousand of miles removed from your back yard bad mouthing you and your efforts, at every opportunity.

Stay off the public internet forums, do not express your opinions or your strategies publicly so you won't have to defend yourself and you family from a couple hundred rugged individualists, willing to discredit you and you efforts, because they read what a few dozen haters have posted and a few thousand, who have no knowledge of the your actual efforts, assume your haters are justified, and jump right in with a round house to your organization, if you ever show your face on a hunting forum.

Do not, what ever you do, go hunting and share the results with the public.

Learn to live with so called friends who ask you, "what have you done for ME, today?"

After you've spent 30 or 40 years in the trenches, mostly by yourself, we'll judge your attitude and your commitment.

Wouldn't want to discourage you in anyway, shape, or form. I wish you much success, and wish more than you will ever know, that you are successful beyond anyones wildest dreams.

I'm going to go mule deer hunting, in Wyoming, this year and I'm going to enjoy it as much as the resource will allow. No more meetings, no more miles, no more phone calls, no more bureaucracies, no more committees, no more appointments, no more workshops, no more politics, no more presentations, no more spending, no more frustration, no more arguments, no more name calling, no more stomach aches, no more worry "about your future" hunting opportunities, I called UNCLE, but it took 38 years of heavy duty effort get me there. But I made the switch, I am now a average joe, doing my thing, on my terms.

Long live mule deer! My "old pipe dream".

DC

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

YBO
(1522 posts)
Click to EMail YBO Click to send private message to YBO Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
09:06 AM (MST)
47. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

2lumpy. Very little or even none whatsoever of the hateful criticism that you have endured was not warranted. Thank you sir for your concern and tremendous efforts.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

2lumpy
(2645 posts)
Click to EMail 2lumpy Click to send private message to 2lumpy Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
01:45 PM (MST)
49. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Thanks YB0. I never minded the vitriol, from friend, or the foe. I just figured it went with the territory. What I got most discouraged about was the decline of the mule deer and the lack of effort, concern, or recognition from most folks, that it was headed south.

My reaction was directed to faultcurrent's comment that most from his generation weren't willing to resist the decline of mule deer. I have no quarrel with faultcurrent, he's been decent to me when I've asked him questions, etc. I just wanted him to know, that all lot of his generation are hunters like my sons, and some of my friends sons and daughters, who have watched us, from the previous generation give helping mule deer population growth a pretty good lick, and they've seen the results of our labors, and it been very educational for them, in that they have said to me, "we've watch you Dad and a few others, and what good did it do?" And that is an honest question for them to ask, and an honest question for us to answer.

I just wanted faultcurrent to understand why the current generation aren't up for the fight. They've seen how hunting organizations have been treated by individual hunters and government agencies. My son's generation have decided to hunt and fish, where ever their time and recourses will take them and let it go to hell, if that's what it's going to do.

They do not believe, after following their Dad's around fighting these issues for 40 years, that it is the best use of their outdoor time and effort.

NOW, IF......... they that could identify any effort that had made a difference for mule deer, they would be motivated to carry on the fight but there is absolutely no evidence the time, energy and collateral that has been expended, has helped the mule deer, in any way, shape or form.

Sad, I guess, at least it is for me, because I've always believed the mule deer was the lynch pin for all of western big game hunting.

But, it is what it is. and we have, as I said in my previous post, the fruits of our labor as a testament of our investment. Which has been continued mule deer decline.

So......... we'll keep doing what we've been doing, and the decline will continue, in my opinion.

But thank you for your kindness YBO, I appreciate it. You're a class act.

DC

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hawkeye
(1958 posts)
Click to EMail Hawkeye Click to send private message to Hawkeye Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
01:28 PM (MST)
48. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Wow. From my experience, you are pretty good at throwing stones yourself. We have certainly butted heads over issues but I always appreciated your passion. I hope you had some fun along the way and wish you the best of luck chasing bucks in Wyoming this year.

-Hawkeye-

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

dirtygrass
(396 posts)
Click to EMail dirtygrass Click to send private message to dirtygrass Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
01:56 PM (MST)
50. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

In the area that I live, hunt and spend 95% of my free time the problem is too many deer a killed. They sell too many tags, too many mountain lions, I have been killing the coyotes as fast as I can but...I spend every spring planting food for the deer and the winter food is great.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Packout
(1384 posts)
Click to EMail Packout Click to send private message to Packout Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
03:12 PM (MST)
51. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-17 AT 03:15 PM (MST)

One way to have more mule deer in the future -- OR at least protect the current herds -- is to identify mule deer movements and facilitate those movements. When I was on the last Mule Deer Committee in Utah, my main push was for migration studies. It didn't take a whole lot of pushing because it was met with positive reactions.

Utah is collaring deer at a high rate, which allows them to identify both movements and mortality. (WY is a leader in this area) Critical space must be maintained to allow movements of herds-- across roadways and through developed lands. Cut off the herd movement and the herd can not sustain itself. It has happened along I15 in Utah, I70 in CO, and many other areas.

So get your conservation orgs to lobby for sound developement practices and use public safety as the driving force. We will kill less people if we have a $1 million wildlife crossing-- and then mule deer are benefactors too.

If you want to save deer TODAY then get net fencing replaced on fawning grounds. From what I have seen in the ranching business is way too many fawns die caught and hip locked in net wire.

Fighting over a herd carrying 15 bucks or 30 bucks per 100 doe is only beneficial to the short term. That has little to do with the overall herd sustainability.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

YBO
(1522 posts)
Click to EMail YBO Click to send private message to YBO Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
05:50 PM (MST)
52. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

If fault current is correct in his statement that there are more hunters today than in the 50s, 60s and early 70s, then it is nearly lost. Back in the 60s as a young nimrod it sure seemed there were more hunters back then than there is today. Anyone have facts on that? Thanks

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

faultcurrent
(83 posts)
Click to EMail faultcurrent Click to send private message to faultcurrent Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
07:00 PM (MST)
53. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

>If fault current is correct in
>his statement that there are
>more hunters today than
>in the 50s, 60s and
>early 70s, then it is
>nearly lost. Back in the
>60s as a young nimrod
>it sure seemed there were
>more hunters back then than
>there is today. Anyone have
>facts on that? Thanks

I didnt say there were more hunters today, i said there were less people back then. Reading comprehension, getcha some ;).

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DW
(7859 posts)
Click to EMail DW Click to send private message to DW Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
07:32 PM (MST)
54. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Tool....

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

faultcurrent
(83 posts)
Click to EMail faultcurrent Click to send private message to faultcurrent Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
07:38 PM (MST)
55. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

^^^ arseclown...

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

YBO
(1522 posts)
Click to EMail YBO Click to send private message to YBO Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
07:49 PM (MST)
56. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

You're right. I guess my masters in speed reading didn't include comprehension.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

fullthrottle
(435 posts)
Click to EMail fullthrottle Click to send private message to fullthrottle Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-25-17, 
09:17 PM (MST)
57. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Utah in the 80's sold almost 250,000 deer tags. Now they sell about 98,000. Less hunters? More people? Got me, but they sold a hell of a lot more deer tags back then, and the hunting was much better also. Obviously the biggest factor is good old Mother Nature, but I think there is a lot that could be done to help the mule deer. I highly doubt any of it will ever happen in a large enough scale to make much difference, but I will continue to try and put forth some effort in hopes of change. I'm afraid the youngsters coming up will have to find other ways to occupy their time, as much as I hate to say it, the future of quality public land hunting is just not looking that promising.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

mmwb
(2130 posts)
Click to EMail mmwb Click to send private message to mmwb Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-26-17, 
09:03 PM (MST)
58. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

This thread seems to address the two independent points that Founder addressed. One is the fact that everyone wants to hunt. This is about opportunity. The other was about quality. Quality is pretty subjective. For some it is seeing a minimal amount of bucks, of 'shooter' bucks, of bucks with a certain number of inches of bone... For others it is the experience of getting out and hunting, regardless of what they do or don't see. This is a forum about trophy deer, so naturally there is a lot about quality in terms of 'mature' or big bucks.

If we are going to focus on the deer herd itself, and the need to increase the size of the herd, that requires a different approach than just trying to have bigger bucks. There may be an inverse relationship between building the herd and building bigger bucks--at least until the herd is large again.

Both Justmuleys and nripepi addressed it here, as I have in other threads, but there is little response to the question: Is there a sufficient buck to doe ratio to ensure breeding of does? If there is, then our current rate of killing bucks is not a factor in the health of the herd. If there is a higher ratio of bucks to does needed, then the number of bucks--a competition for does and fawns on the winter ground--may actually be a detriment. If the case, then restricting tags will do nothing for the long term health of the herd, and could be a detriment.

How does having more bucks help the herd? How does having older bucks help the herd? Do older bucks ensure an increase of bred does? If so, stop killing mature bucks!

Until we align on the priorities, we are going to have hard time making a difference. I think a lot of us would give up hunting opportunity to ensure a healthier herd. Many of us will not advocate giving up hunting opportunity to cater to the desires of those who want bigger bucks.

Wyoming is a good deal for residents. If we need to raise the cost of tags to help the herd, so be it; though I think a feeding stamp, like we have for elk, is a better approach. We certainly don't want to become what so many other states are, if not needed. If we are killing too many bucks, something I've yet to be convinced of, then maybe we need the game departments of several states work together and ensure noone kills more than one buck a year. No more hunting multiple states the same year. Afterall, how much bone do you need to hang on the wall in a year? I realize that many of those hunters don't even kill deer, but the priniciple is valid.

I don't know the answers, but suggest maybe:

1. Reduce interference with breeding of does. No rut hunts.

2. Heavily invest in improved quality of winter grounds.

3. Increase highfencing and highway cross overs in winter grounds and migratory routes.

4. Increased predator managament (lion predation in the Star Valley area is quite high). Cats and coyotes are a factor.

5. Eliminate doe hunts in areas the herd objectives are too low, including youth hunts. (If there are points restrictions, which will probably do nothing to help the herd; let the youth shoot smaller bucks).

6. Close access to winter grounds and aggresively enforce (this is easier said than done as the game agencies don't always agree with BLM/Forest priorities). One aggressive dog with a cross country skier or hiker can run and kill a lot of deer in a day and the skier or hiker would never know the damage being done. Enforcement also becomes a problem for lack of resources.

7. To pay for all this...

a. A mule deer fee would raise some money, but not enough. Do it anyway.

b. Highway departments and insurance companies should see the value in savings of lives and vehicle damage in deer collisions. Bring them in to lobby for funds outside of game departments for more highfencing and crossovers.

c. At some point, the trend of hunters funding the management of all game within their state needs to change. If the management of non-game were funded by others, besides hunters and fishermen, it would free up some funds to better see to all species needs.


On a side note for those who are concerned about all the 22 to 25 inch bucks getting shot, there is an area of region G that has a genetic propensity to narrow, tall bucks. They can be some pretty big bucks. Big enough to meet most people definition of trophy. Certainly mature.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

huntin50
(913 posts)
Click to EMail huntin50 Click to send private message to huntin50 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-27-17, 
08:19 AM (MST)
59. "RE: More Mule Deer!"

Nice post mmwb.

Weather and the three C'c Cougars,coyotes,cars are hard on our deer herd.

Technology and long range shooting.

We can only do so many things.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top


Lock | Archive | Remove

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic