1082 and 960 Yard Muley Double

[sageadvice]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-14 AT 06:12PM (MST)[p]"This post should be pulled in fear of more useless banter that gets nobody anywhere"

I don't know Wiz, at least it stands as proof that there already exits strong differences of opinion among us as a group. Sticking ones head in the sand, believing that there is no conflict of interests on this issue, does no good.

I also don't know the final answer. Don't ask, don't tell, leave the LR talk out in the OP, would certainly make for nicer hunt threads but i got flamed for mentioning that short term suggestion...

A lot of the comments in favor of LR hunting of Game animals, just sounded so self centered to me. "don't listen, do what you want to do..." or, "I'll do what i want to do"

This is not a MM issue among ourselves here, it's much bigger than that with lots of people getting involved. I remember not too long ago here, the seemingly ever lasting mantra was "Fair Chase". Be it rifles that can kill over a mile away at animals that don't even know they are being shot at or drones that remotely fly in, locate, and then shoot big bucks while in their hidie hole from miles away by some gut with a control in his hand, fair chase ceases to exist and it stands to reason that us as a group should be concerned about that.

Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

 

[manny53]

I find it piss's me off more when rich boys pay the big $ and get to hunt late seasons year after year, so long range shooting big deer, big deal, congrats guys....

 

[Wiszard]

"Fair chase"? If you take that literally we'd have to go back to hunting as it was when our ancestors hunted in the early 1800's by bow and arrow or spear. I don't think "fair chase" exists anymore even if you're using a recurve. Technology has blown fair chase out of the water.

Steve

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.

 

[zach90bsu]

>Why don't you keep your target
>shooting videos between your friends
>who may get off on
>this kind of target practice
>and keep it off the
>internet. This isn't hunting,
>it's target shooting and should
>be left for the gun
>range. It sucks seeing
>two pencil horned bucks shot
>in the guts cause you
>two have to boost your
>egos. How many shots
>did you have to take?
> I especially like the
>guy checking the wind by
>throwing grass a 1,000 yards
>away. Do you really
>think that's what the wind
>was doing in the next
>county? Pathetic!


Well said!!

 

[sageadvice]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-14 AT 08:59PM (MST)[p]""Fair chase"? If you take that literally we'd have to go back to hunting as it was when our ancestors hunted in the early 1800's by bow and arrow or spear. I don't think "fair chase" exists anymore even if you're using a recurve. Technology has blown fair chase out of the water."

You are kidding me, right? I fear you are serious and if so delirious.

There are different meanings to the phrase i suppose but, I've made a total of one day hunt with a radio in my pocket. According to Boone & Crockett's long standing definitions of "Fair Chase", i can't think of a single other hunt that i've been on in the last 40 years, that wasn't fair chase.

Oh well! lol

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

 

[Deerdon]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-14 AT 09:06PM (MST)[p]Everyone knows that some deer get gutshot at 50 yards as well as 800 yards. Having said that, I think you are being a little more than just naive to think posting a video of a wounded animal (SHOT AT ANY DISTANCE)is a good thing...let alone, something to be proud of. You hit the deer in the guts...THAT WAS A BAD SHOT PEOPLE!!!! Who cares how far it was...or are you saying it's OK to hit one in the guts if it's a long shot???? If so...after 800 yards (or whatever) it's a great shot as long as you "eventually" kill it???

 

[hossblur]

Using B&C to justify not being for LR is just stupid. The whole "record book", "trophy" B.S. is what causes this crap to start with. Be honest, how many of your grandpas or dad even knew the "scores" of their bucks? This competition of who is the alpha male hunter causes this whole sideshow circus of stuff from poaching on one end to $275,000 island deer on the other. The OP isn't a bad dude, but his post, like so many others isn't about the time spend scouting, the time spent in the field. It is about how big his schong is. What did either of those bucks weigh? Dressed out? Dear god how ever did our dads and grandpas ever get by without all this "I am the man B.S."? Oh thats right, they just hunted, and when it came time to kill they did that. Doing a dance, bragging on the websites would have gotten you head smacked. Its not about ETHICS, don't be silly. Its about sportsmanship. Go tell your grandpa you killed a deer and 1032yrds, after he asks you why you would keep track of the distance, he would want to know who your trying to impress with that crap. 2 generations later and we have this, and then the balls of a "record book" organization pretending like they are going to take the high road. Hey B&C, lets see that same concern when Denny kills the Lagoon Bull.
Check out the Sorensen Family Elk Hunt in the Elk section. Thats how we used to see pics, used to hear stories, USED to hunt ourselves. Now look at us, a freaking big schlong contest, countered by a self serving bunch of azzclowns whose contribution to hunting is to make it Golf(B&C, and their retarded twin Pope and Young). Where is our heritage? It took a shizz the first time someone reached for a tape measure before he reached for his knife!!!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[sageadvice]

Hoss, i think you have made some good points on this topic but to rant and rave at me because i used partial reference to B & C's version of Fair Chase in making a point,.. is just a bit excessive don't you think? lol

I know, i know, This is a soapbox and we are all free to use it.

spdrman, i arrived late to the party but as was my usual habit, i was one of the last to leave it, my apologies. I predict that you have a great and adventurous future in front of you. Good luck to you and yours!

Joey






"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

 

[BrowningRage]

I have to believe that the LR shooting of animals has more to do with the challenge than anything else.

Back in college, I knew of a group of guys from Wyoming. They hunted their whole lives out in the flats of WY for antelope. After so many years of killing antelope, they started stretching their capabilities with finer equipment and better understanding of ballistics and all that. They got good. Soon, it was no longer a challenge to merely "hit" the animal at distance, so they all determined that while hunting doe antelope, they would make only head shots in order to preserve every bit of meat. And so, their margin of error increased as their target size decreased. From that point on, they were challenged each and every time they hunted. Yes, you can miss an antelope head at 600 yards, and they do, but hitting it kills it instantly, and they have every ounce of meat they need. It was challenging to them to have the right gear, make the right calculations, and then make an accurate shot.

I understand the desire to feel challenged in the field. But I will say this. The point I think we are all debating is "When is it no longer a challenge?" "When is it no longer sport?" We debate having 10 guides and a camera crew- is that challenging/sporting?? We debate scopes that offer laser range-finding and compensation internally- is that challenging/sporting?? We debate 'muzzle-loaders' that are all but- are they challenging/sporting?? What about side-by-sides that can drive all over an entire mountain in a day, when it used to take a week to hunt it?? Trailers that are nicer than the home you live in??

Unfortunately, the challenge/sport is in the eye of the gun-holder And I'm afraid there will be no consensus on the subject...

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

 

[Snoopdogg]

> I have to believe that
>the LR shooting of animals
>has more to do with
>the challenge than anything else.
>
>
> Back in college, I knew
>of a group of guys
>from Wyoming. They hunted their
>whole lives out in the
>flats of WY for antelope.
>After so many years of
>killing antelope, they started stretching
>their capabilities with finer equipment
>and better understanding of ballistics
>and all that. They got
>good. Soon, it was no
>longer a challenge to merely
>"hit" the animal at distance,
>so they all determined that
>while hunting doe antelope, they
>would make only head shots
>in order to preserve every
>bit of meat. And so,
>their margin of error increased
>as their target size decreased.
>From that point on, they
>were challenged each and every
>time they hunted. Yes, you
>can miss an antelope head
>at 600 yards, and they
>do, but hitting it kills
>it instantly, and they have
>every ounce of meat they
>need. It was challenging to
>them to have the right
>gear, make the right calculations,
>and then make an accurate
>shot.
>
> I understand the desire to
>feel challenged in the field.
>But I will say this.
>The point I think we
>are all debating is "When
>is it no longer a
>challenge?" "When is it no
>longer sport?" We debate having
>10 guides and a camera
>crew- is that challenging/sporting?? We
>debate scopes that offer laser
>range-finding and compensation internally- is
>that challenging/sporting?? We debate 'muzzle-loaders'
>that are all but- are
>they challenging/sporting?? What about side-by-sides
>that can drive all over
>an entire mountain in a
>day, when it used to
>take a week to hunt
>it?? Trailers that are nicer
>than the home you live
>in??
>
> Unfortunately, the challenge/sport is in
>the eye of the gun-holder
> And I'm afraid there
>will be no consensus on
>the subject...
>
>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>is at ease in Zion!"
>2 Ne. 28: 24

Right there with you homeboy!

 

[HorseCreek]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-14 AT 10:42AM (MST)[p]


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[Wiszard]

Fair chase....Honestly think about that for a second, Joey. With what we have to hunt with these days, you think it's fair chase? In no means do I plan to stop hunting anytime soon, however, for me to look at it as my quarry and I is on a level playing field is a slap in the face to the game I hunt. It just so happens that we have made technological advances to up our odds of killing them. They only have so much to work with....

Just my 2 cents....

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.

 

[sageadvice]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-14 AT 11:53AM (MST)[p]Steve, i honestly think having a great shooting rifle and good glass takes nothing away from having a fair chase hunt. I agree that things might be getting out of hand for some but the majority of guys out there, are doing it little different as they have for the last 50 years.

Most of the places i hunt, the critter has the advantage of cover. You should someday see this country i live in and hunt. Mile after mile of solid timber and very little open country. There are lots of tags given out, lots of public land to hunt, but only a estimated hunt success figure of 22%. The guys i know that do the best, are the guys willing to work the hardest at it, go where others feel too hard or not worth it, or just staying after it until they get their deer. The new High Tech ultra long range stuff, has very little play here.

When i think of non fair chase, i'm referring to high fence hunts in smaller enclosures, using a aircraft to shoot from, or to this topic, repeatedly shooting at a animal so far away, that he doesn't even know that he's being shot at. Stuff like that. That's my take anyway.

We all have agreed in some way to limit ourselves to help protect the game animals we love to hunt. Seasons are set and those are justified to protect from excessive take year round. Some firearms are limited to the amount of shells they can legally hold or minimum caliber size, shot size is limited on migratory birds, and shooting hours are enforced. Many have concerns, we're just not sure what the answers are because it's hard to blame a guy that only wants to better his chance at distance, if that's the shot he has.

Joey




"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

 

[Wiszard]

Agreed, Joey.

Steve

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.

 

[hossblur]

>Hoss, i think you have made
>some good points on this
>topic but to rant and
>rave at me because i
>used partial reference to B
>& C's version of Fair
>Chase in making a point,..
>is just a bit excessive
>don't you think? lol
>
>I know, i know, This is
>a soapbox and we are
>all free to use it.
>
>
>spdrman, i arrived late to the
>party but as was my
>usual habit, i was one
>of the last to leave
>it, my apologies. I predict
>that you have a great
>and adventurous future in front
>of you. Good luck to
>you and yours!
>
>Joey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"It's all about knowing what your
>firearms practical limitations are and
>combining that with your own
>personal limitations!"

The rant wasn't aimed at you, that B&C story is floating around in here and elsewhere. In fact the rant was basically that little voice in my head taking control. My dad died 14 yrs ago, another in my group is on the liver transplant list, another got his "maybe 6 months" talk from the cancer doctor. Perhaps I am spending too much time in the memory center of my brain, but the more I read these LR posts the more I hear the voices of these old guys.
We drove to our deer camp for the rifle hunt(i was just a cook and bartender). The camp is in the same place with the same group as it has been since I was 4(36 yrs ago). I started telling my son about Friday before the hunt school was out, stores were closed. From my house in Syracuse to Manti it was solid traffic of orange clad families. From Thistle to Faiview I was pointing out were there were camps(only a few remain). For the better part of an hour I told him how it was then, not once did we talk about B&C scores, or range of kills. We talked about that deer grandpa killed, or that deer Joe killed, or that year we all got stuck, or whatever. Over and over his response was "yeah right". It dawned on me(I kinda knew already) just how much WE have lost since I was his age(9). How many of us just gave up, for how many did it become not worth the money or hassle anymore.

WE have lost our heritage. Blame technology, blame SFW et al, blame CWMU's, blame the DWR, but WE gave up what drew us into the sport when we were kids, in the never ending quest by the loudest amongst us to be the best, baddest, greatest. In their wake, the heritage is drown. You didn't start hunting as a kid because your dad could shoot a deer at 1000yrds, you started because he could kill a deer from time to time. He could find a place to take you hunting. He could get a tag. Everytime we "advance" in the pursuit of inches, we loose more of ourselves. It seems to really be bothering me more and more.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[BuckBuster]

Nice shooting. I've seen allot more unethical shots taken at 100 yards, thanks for sharing the video. Don't let these guys steal your thunder. Monster bucks get poached all the time out of season or spotlighted or whatever and your getting bashed for taking a long range shot! You obviously know your equipment and your capabilities. 3 shots 2 bucks down, congrats.

 

[muley505]

All three of their shots were good, and these guys obviously know their equipment well. I don't have a huge issue with this one because all three shots were decent hits, and like others have said, I've seen worse shots at 50 yards than any of the three that were taken in this instance. My problem with this is that it definitely looks like they could have gotten closer to the deer before taking a shot. I don't have a problem with people taking a long shot if it is absolutely the only option you are presented and you are very, very sure you can make it (because you've actually done it many times before on inanimate objects) AND you have enough energy left to ethically kill whatever it is you are shooting. What I don't totally agree with in this instance is taking a long shot merely for the sake of taking a long shot and telling people you took a shot at x amount of yardage.

The bottom line for me with this whole LR thing is that if you can get closer, get closer, but if there is no way to get closer, and you are 95% sure your FIRST shot will be lethal, then I don't have an issue with it. If you're not VERY sure you can make your FIRST shot, please respect the animal, and don't take it. These creatures survive in some of the most formidable conditions, and they deserve our respect. I don't have any issue with killing them, but please do it with precision and respect for the amazing animals that they are.

Overall, great shooting and very nice deer!

BTW how much does that beast of a rifle weigh? You about need to drag along two extra friends just to carry your rifle. I'd rather get 500 yards closer with a lighter rifle than lug around a rifle that weighs as much as an elk quarter just so I can take a 1000 yard shot, but that's just me.

Thanks for sharing, guys, and for being decent sports about the razzing you received.

 

[HorseCreek]

"The bottom line for me with this whole LR thing is that if you can get closer, get closer, but if there is no way to get closer, and you are 95% sure your FIRST shot will be lethal, then I don't have an issue with it"


You better be 100% sure....That 5% margin can go south in a hurry at 1000+ yards


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[muley505]

The 5% margin allows for the unknowns that play into every shot we take. I don't expect that any shooter can have 100% certainty that their shot on a wild animal will be perfect because there are just too many variables that come into play when shooting live targets. An animal can be dead still for two minutes watching you, and in the next second, be moved ten feet from where it was. A 20 mph gust of wind could whip through anywhere between the shooter and the animal and change your point of impact significantly. Your gun may have unknowingly gotten jostled on the way in and adjusted the POI slightly, and so on. There are just too many things that come into play to say you can have 100% certainty a shot is going to hit, especially at these types of distances. I agree that a 5% margin is big, especially at 1000 yards, and that's part of the reason I don't take shots at that distance - the unknowns are just too great, and a minor problem with the shot becomes greatly compounded as the distance increases.

I guess my original point was that you need to be very, very sure you are going to have a hit whether the shot is at 75 yards or 1000 and that you have done everything you can to take into account as many of the variables as possible, and if you aren't very sure it's going to cleanly kill, don't shoot or get closer.

 

[larrbo]

I'm not writing this to judge on give my own opinion on what I think hunting is for me. It's being in the field trying to use all of things you have learned to enjoy the hunt. For me it is doing a lot of glassing to look for the animal I want to hunt. For me I enjoy the stalk and want to use the wind and cover to get as close as possible to the animal for a clean shot. Everyone does it their way and for me it's all about the stalk.

 

[280ack]

nice looking bucks. Great shots.

 

[Coloradoboy]

>Using B&C to justify not being
>for LR is just stupid.
> The whole "record book",
>"trophy" B.S. is what causes
>this crap to start with.
> Be honest, how many
>of your grandpas or dad
>even knew the "scores" of
>their bucks? This competition
>of who is the alpha
>male hunter causes this whole
>sideshow circus of stuff from
>poaching on one end to
>$275,000 island deer on the
>other. The OP isn't
>a bad dude, but his
>post, like so many others
>isn't about the time spend
>scouting, the time spent in
>the field. It is
>about how big his schong
>is. What did either
>of those bucks weigh?
>Dressed out? Dear god
>how ever did our dads
>and grandpas ever get by
>without all this "I am
>the man B.S."? Oh
>thats right, they just hunted,
>and when it came time
>to kill they did that.
> Doing a dance, bragging
>on the websites would have
>gotten you head smacked.
>Its not about ETHICS, don't
>be silly. Its about
>sportsmanship. Go tell your
>grandpa you killed a deer
>and 1032yrds, after he asks
>you why you would keep
>track of the distance, he
>would want to know who
>your trying to impress with
>that crap. 2 generations
>later and we have this,
>and then the balls of
>a "record book" organization pretending
>like they are going to
>take the high road.
>Hey B&C, lets see that
>same concern when Denny kills
>the Lagoon Bull.
>Check out the Sorensen Family Elk
>Hunt in the Elk section.
> Thats how we used
>to see pics, used to
>hear stories, USED to hunt
>ourselves. Now look at
>us, a freaking big schlong
>contest, countered by a self
>serving bunch of azzclowns whose
>contribution to hunting is to
>make it Golf(B&C, and their
>retarded twin Pope and Young).
> Where is our heritage?
> It took a shizz
>the first time someone reached
>for a tape measure before
>he reached for his knife!!!!
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


So much truth in this Hoss... I think my Grandpa and Great Grandpa would roll over in their grave if they could be around to see what hunting is today. Everything now days is about "how far was the shot" and "whats he score" there would be a hell of a lot less drama in this sport via forums and social media if these things were left out. I've been plenty guilty of stirring the pot and making my own mistakes of trying to gain attention when I was younger and It down right humbled me and brought me back to earth. Its pretty ridiculous with all the things,people, and organizations trying to threaten this sport, heritage, and lifestyle that we all love. That we can sit behind our keyboards all as hunters in one way or another and piss down each others back for not hunting the exact way we see fit to our own standards. Instead of coming together. Long range is just the evolution of hunting guys whether we like it or not. Think about it this way... the progression from Flint lock/black power rifles to centerfire rifles? Scoped Centerfire rifles??? Higher Magnification scopes? Bullet Advancement? A better understanding of ballistics and ballistic coefficients? New Calibers? Its just the human race progressing.

Coloradoboy

 

[missalot]

One thing that I have to give you credit for is having the patience to put up with all of the whiney azzed comments here and reply with respect.
You have obviouly made the investment in time and money to have the gear and the ability to be successful and I respect that.
Guys talk about the current obsession with long range shooting being bad for the sprt. Couldn't the same thing be said with the obsession with what a buck scores, four wheel drives, atvs and even snow tracks, the uquality ofour optics....heck, even the new bows that let a guy buy a bow and within a few weeks be able to shoot good enough to hunt?
Thanks for your post and the willingness that you share information about your equipment.

 

[missalot]

Ok, I think many of you guys need to take a step back and look in the mirror. Let's jump to the "how many states did you put in for" thread and why you spend a couple grand on licenses and points every year. Simple, one day you hope to kill a deer that makes your schlong look bigger. I love big deer simply because any accomplished hunter can kill little ones. I don't like all the new equipment because it removes the real attraction to hunting, this being getting to know your quarry well enough to kill it. However, long range rifles are not the only culprit. Take a look at the vehicles that get us into country where old timers seldom went without safari-like amounts of work. Take a look at optics where we can sit by a nice fire and glass miles away. Take a look at weapons that shoot farther than most guys are willing to walk to claim their prize.

It shouldn't be about getting your name in any book, yet those very organizations promote entering your animal because those fees are what sustains them. Heck, where would this or any other forum be if guys couldn't come here and say "look at what I killed" to stroke their ego?
If it were up to me, all roads would be closed except for foot or animal traffic and use whatever weapon you want to kill the game. I don't agree with much of what goes on, but if it is legal, I have to live with it.

 

[bullskin]

It is difficult to deny that one is more likely to injure an animal at long range than at short, but it is equally difficult to define "long range". My grandad would have judged 250 yards to be long range when shooting his 300 savage with iron sights, and every shot entails some risk of injury, so who decides what is acceptable?

My primary interest in this thread is the conclusion that some have reached that hunters must support the actions of others. Here I strongly disagree. We owe it to the game and to our children to ensure that we err on the side of caution, and must raise objections to such behavior as we regard to be questionable. That we can hold this conversation while remaining mostly civil speaks well for us.

 

[missalot]

Pm sent to spdrman.