Arizona unfairness

[tooele]

Just wanted to post in regards to all of these folks ripping on non-resident AZ odds. Arizona residents and the fish and game have managed the herd for years to produce quality. We as residents suffer, we are not guaranteed to draw every year like in Colorado, Utah, etc., but we are ok with that. The funny thing is that we properly manage our herds, sacrifice, etc., and then all of the non-residents decide that it is high time they should have a piece of that pie. They over hunt their herds and when actually manage their herds look at the impossible odds to draw in the Henrys, Utah Elk or 1 or 2 Colorado Units. You can't have it all. The great thing about arizona is we let you folks come and hunt archery in our premium units, basically causing a circus up on the Kaibab, over the counter no less and we still hear nothing but whining. Seriously, just enjoy the hunting, you probably wouldn't get the 230 bc buck on the Strip anyway.

T

 

[CAelknuts]

I have to agree with you, tooele. I think Arizona does a very good job of managing their wildlife, despite the pressure to open it up more and let tons of people in. I also understand that this may be coming to an end and might be opened up with a subsequent drop in quality. I hope that doesn't happen.

Whether people like it or not, Arizona has a finite amount of habitat for the various animals on which they offer hunting licenses. Not everyone, resident or non-resident, is going to get to hunt very often; but, when you do you will most likely have a good experience. I've had the privilege of hunting in Arizona five times since 1994. Twice, I drew elk tags in unit 9, the other three times were on hunts that a buddy or my son drew and I went along. All five were great hunts, even though on the two where I had the tag, I came home without an animal.

A key to hunting in Arizona is being flexible in your thinking about which units, weapons and season dates you're willing to hunt. Yeah, we'd all like to draw unit 10 early rifle bull, but that just isn't going to happen for most of us in our lifetimes. If you want to hunt the Kaibab, chances are you're going to have to join 3,000 other archers, or apply for early rifle hunts or you won't get to go. You can also put in as individuals like we do, and enjoy a great hunt whenever anyone in the group draws. Guess what, there are plenty of other really good hunts across the state besides just the prestige units, and some have reasonable draw odds when compared to the quality.

I think, on the other hand, if Arizona allows a huge increase in tags and lots of us draw regularly, we'll hear even more complaining about how they mismanage the wildlfie and how they ruined what many consider the best managed wildlife in the county. If it wasn't already so damned good, it wouldn't be in such demand.

 

[tooele]

Exellent comments, and just to add one more note Arizona is not only made up on unit 13a/b and 12. There are some very quality hunts with excellent bucks in other units. Especially the archery during the rut no less, there are some awesome bucks. The sonoran desert that all of the monster muleys are being taken in in mexico, extends into southern Arizona with the same genetics and the same habitat. If you have ever hunted the rut in January, there are awesome bucks, so before you doom and gloom because you aren't hunting the strip look at the positive. No you can't drive around in a truck with a tower with 20 mexican guides, you do actually have to hunt.

T

 

[MuskegMan]

"No you can't drive around in a truck with a tower with 20 mexican guides"

Ha ha ha ha - the truth comes out (?)

 

[UGAhunter]

I am one of the ?complainers? on the other post. I am not complaining that Arizona restricts hunting to maintain high quality. I think that is good. It is hard to balance quality and quantity! Every state struggles with this.

My beef is not with Arizona only. It is with all western states. It is the trend in raising fees and hammering the non-resident that concerns me. It is like a nuclear arms race to see what state can get the most money from non-resident hunters. Utah raises their fees, so Arizona follows, then Wyoming, then New Mexico, then Idaho, then Nevada, then Montana, then Wyoming, then Utah, then Idaho, then New Mexico, then Arizona? all the time using the price in other States as justification.

There are more hunters in every State than there are tags, so they just raise the price on a public resource knowing they will still have more than enough applicants to sell the needed number of tags (good old supply and demand ? proven to work). They could charge $5000 for a NR elk tag, and still sell every one, and I believe that day will come, sooner than later. Next will be the resident tags. Utah already charges $280 for Resident elk tags (premium tags are over $500). I know they could charge residents $1500 and sell every one! Those kind of prices are coming.

The evolution of hunting from a common man?s sport to the trophy hunting of the elite will be the demise of hunting. It happened in England and will happen here sooner or later ? I hope much later. Eventually there will be no public support for hunting and we will turn wildlife management over to the wolves and grizzly bears ? some people already want to do this.

Bottom line, IMO, is that the States need fair, RANDOM distribution methods to allocate these PUBLIC resources. We shouldn't just limit them to the wealthy elite hunters. New/young hunters are severely disadvantaged under the current bonus/preference systems that are in place to doll out these highly coveted tags in most states. State governments need to fund wildlife management so the Departments are not required to do it solely from hunter/fisher moneys. Non hunters enjoy the benefit of wildlife too.

 

[AZ402]

Is it me or does the crying get worse every year???

 

[tooele]

Can I just make one comment on the UGA notes. Once again Arizona is leading the way. We are not out pricing the common man. We have not yet sold our sole like our mormon brothers in Utah to the special interest groups and land owners. Do we have CWMUs where the rich can hunt anytime and anywhere "No", do we have land owner permits like our Pagan brothers in Colorado, so certain few can charge huge fees and hunt any where they want "No". Arizona is managed for the hunter with some trophy units and many areas that are not. At this point we do not Cater to the rich. Everyone has the same opportunity, and for a chance to hunt the top unit or one of them in the country $150 is not pricing the common non-resident out of the game, sure it takes sacrifice, but it can be done.

T

 

[manny15]

>Can I just make one comment
>on the UGA notes.
>Once again Arizona is leading
>the way. We are
>not out pricing the common
>man. We have not
>yet sold our sole like
>our mormon brothers in Utah
>to the special interest groups
>and land owners. Do
>we have CWMUs where the
>rich can hunt anytime and
>anywhere "No", do we have
>land owner permits like our
>Pagan brothers in Colorado, so
>certain few can charge huge
>fees and hunt any where
>they want "No". Arizona
>is managed for the hunter
>with some trophy units and
>many areas that are not.
> At this point we
>do not Cater to the
>rich. Everyone has the
>same opportunity, and for a
>chance to hunt the top
>unit or one of them
>in the country $150 is
>not pricing the common non-resident
>out of the game, sure
>it takes sacrifice, but it
>can be done.
>
>T


I'm with yah man...

 

[2_Point]

I only have one problem with Arizona. The fact that they started giving different preference in the middle of the game. Now a guy must have max points to draw the Strip, because they hit the 10% quota from the high point set-asides. This change in the system means I will never have a chance to draw one of these units. Call it whining, but it bites. I wish they would say there are x number of nonresident tags and 10-80% of those tags go to those with the most points. But everyone has a chance at the other 90-20% of nonresident quotas.

 

[UGAhunter]

You make a good point, Utah leads the pack in exploiting permits with the hundreds of conservation tags, hundreds of convention tags, and governor tags ect. Maybe they should follow AZ's lead a bit in this regard.

I'm going to stop "whinning" now, count my blessings, and focus on hunting elk, deer, bear, cougar, and turkeys in my home state - like I am able to do every year.

 

[tooele]

2 point now remember that many of the changes were brought on by one of the richman groups bringing a lawsuit against Arizona trying to force the state to allow their priviledged hunters to hunt the premium areas. I am actually proud that Arizona resisted and I do believe in the next few years that Arizona will correct back to making sure that Non-residents get more permits, but unfortunately for non-residents we have over corrected in the wrong direction for them in response to the lawsuit

T

 

[sremim]

Its funny that AZ is only about the strip and kaibab. Most don't realize as was already posted that you can kill huge deer during the rut archery hunts. Also, in 2005 I know of at least 7 deer that scored between 170"-200" that were taken in central AZ units, south of the ditch, during the general rifle season. There are other places to hunt deer in AZ besides the strip/kaibab. So many people want to hunt those areas, yet so few of them will even kill a monster. Why not take your "wasted" $151 license and hunt other units on a more regular basis, learn them, and find the big deer there? Because it takes too much work? I will agree that the NR should have a better shot at those 10% tags without max points. Leave it up to a few to ruin it for all.






It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[camuleycrazy]

Good posts Tooele! I appreciate Ariz. and their great management. I have had 3 non-res tags with 13B and 10 Muzzle (365" bull)in 96 and unit 9 archery this last season. I have only killed one animal but had great hunts all three plus a bunch of time on the strip with other hunters. I realize that I will probably only get to hunt twice more but cannot complain. There are too many people in the U.S. now and supply and demand has taken over. Complainers can archery hunt the Kaibab and join the circus.

 

[30inchbucks]

I would have to agree that Arizona is way ahead of other states when it comes to management of their wildlife. They have fully utilized opportunity by placing most of their rifle tags out of the rut in November and primitive weapons hunts during the rut (archery). And no landowner and conservation tags!!!!!!!!That being said from a non-resident. My home state(Utah)sucks, just as said above. They cater to the rich. Yes, we have this great elk herd, but what is the point when most of the residents will never get to hunt them and the rich can just purchase a tag every year. It's really a joke. Every state otta be taking lessons from Arizona. They're the only ones that even have a clue. Hopefully big money and greed don't change it.

 

[sremim]

"Every state otta be taking lessons from Arizona."

Unfortunately with the results of this recent "survey" AZ will change the way it manages and will now go from quality to quantity.



It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[30inchbucks]

sremin,
I hope they don't change much. I took that survey and told em not to change a thing.

 

[2_Point]

Guys, I don't have a problem with the fees or the nonresident quota of tags. I just hate how the AZFG changed the system last year, which means that any nonresident without the maximum points can not draw the big 3 units. It would be nice if a certain number of the nonresident quota went into the draw where any nonresident could have a chance.

 

[bragabit]

I don't see a major problem with the way that the system is set up. The guys with max points have paid their dues and been holding out for a once in a lifetime hunt. How many of the people complaining about the system have drawn a tag in Arizona in the last 10 years, and now think they should be allowed to hunt again before someone who has not had their chance.

 

[BigFin]

Bragabit:

I have never drawn an AZ deer tag and I have max deer points. I still think the new system is stupid, even though I stand to benefit from it.

Happy Hunting!

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"

 

[Reaper]

I am an AZ resident and I haven't been drawn for 5 years. How about them cookies? So if you as a non res have a hard time don't ##### you aren't the only ones!!!!!

 

[coueskiller]

I am a lifetime resident of N. AZ. and the tags are getting tougher to draw each year. I have been applying for antelope for 22yrs now and have max points but still have yet to draw a tag, maybe this year will be my turn but maybe not. I have not had a mule deer tag since 1993 and that was a general hunt south of the ditch, I have drawn a couple of coues deer tags since then as second choices but now I have 6 bonus pionts and am putting in for nothing but late hunts north of the ditch. I may have to wait a few more years before I get that trophy deer tag but it will come and I'm fine with that. I hunt archery deer every year just as all non-res can, as stated above there are some awesome archery deer hunts in the rut south of the ditch, AND ANYONE WHO WANTS TO HUNT THEM CAN DO SO WITH AN OVER THE COUNTER TAG! I have had 2 archery bull tags since 1992 wow that's a tag every 7.5yrs but I'm also fine with that as they are awesome hunts and well worth the wait. 2008 is going to have some changes that some of you non-res that complain about not having a chance to hunt AZ should take a look at. 2008 will have unlimited OVER THE COUNTER elk tags rifle/archery in selected units and you can hunt for about 5 months out of the year. These are no unit 9 or 10 tags but they all hold elk and a 420"+ bull was taken out of one of the units on the archery hunt this past Sept. Well that's enough venting for me and like I have said in the past AZ has alot of oppertunity for non-res and residents alike but when we all want that trophy tag we just have to be ready to wait and your time will come. The AZ game and fish is changing direction and is now going to focus on oppertunity instead of quality and that is a sad fact. Our deer herds suffer from the hunting pressure now and it's only going to get worse, I hate to say this guys but the days of quality hunting in AZ are limited. Here are some of the unlimited oppertunities for you non-res that have issues- Sept archery deer tags(World Famous Kaibab Included), Dec/Jan archery deer tags in the rut, fall archery turkey, bear, lion, thousands of left over Javelina tags each year that are given out on a first come basis and now over the counter elk tags!!! I also forgot to mention that some of our archery deer hunts are going to a draw and others may be eliminated so you better get it while you can.

Geoff

 

[Largo3]

I am a non-resident who has hunted in AZ for 10 years. Figure they can run their state any way they want and I will work around it. I apply for non-premium hunts and then go have fun.

I have seen a dramatic increase in AZ hunters in NM because it is easier for them to draw here than at home. There is an effort in NM to change that. Some folks are lobbying New Mexico to go to the same system as AZ. If that occurs, AZ folks will be hunting in NM a lot less than they do now.

 

[sremim]

"I am an AZ resident and I haven't been drawn for 5 years. How about them cookies?"


I can beat that. I've been an AZ resident all my life, been applying for bull elk since I was 10, I am now 27, and have never been drawn. Figure that one out.










It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[fullcurl74]

Arizona has been very good to me. I hate to see it change too much. I'm with the others above in saying that Arizona is light years ahead of its neighbor to the north. When will Utah stop selling out to the $? Arizona should stick with what they've got.

 

[DonMartin]

To address two-points concern, he has some valid points.

The 10% cap makes it virtually impossible for a NR with less than max BP to draw any of what is generally considered the PREMIUM mule deer hunts.

I have asked G&F to to look at a system that says there would be 1-2 NR tags issued in these premium areas through a draw for ALL NR's regardless of bonus points, with the 1-2 still coming out of the 10% pool.

Let's us the 2007 AZ Strip draw an as example.

This year there were 85 tags issued. That meant 8 tags could (and did) go to NR's. Why not say that tags # 1,2 could be drawn by any NR who applied for these areas, regardless of the bonus points, while tags 3-8 go to those with the max bonus points? I call it the carrot in front of the mule syndrome.

If a NR sees he has a chance at drawing a tag, no matter if it is just 1 or 2 tags, they'll keep laying the "game" of buying licenses and applying for tags. Seems like a win-win for G&F and the NR's.

As it stands now, unless you're wanting to hunt one of the lesser known mule deer units, then you're not gonna hunt mule deer here as a NR..

Come on, fair is fair...

Don Martin

 

[Boskee]

I think most of you that complain about AZ high rates need to really do some research. Arizona was known as the bargain of nonresident hunting for years and according to recent research it still is. There are many states charging 6-20X the residents costs for a deer tag around the nation. There are many states charging many times more than the resident fees we charge for for elk. So I'd be really careful about what you're crying about! Go over to bowsite and take a look and open your eyes and shut your mouth! It surprised me how little you guys pay and just how much more you stick it to the nonresidents in comparison. Our fees may be higher but it cost us as residents far more to hunt than most of you have to pay and most of us go years without a tag! So to those of you that still think we charge too much after doing the research I have no sympathy most states are raping nonresidents far worse than we are in comparision. So pony up there boys and quit bitching about how unfair we are! Lifes too short!

Don Martin and a few others addressed the one part of the NR system that most of us feel is unfair and hopefully that'll change in the future! To those of you that feel we're too unfair I say this there are 49 other possibilities for you to try please exercise your option to go elsewhere. All those that apply here will thank you for increasing their odds residents and nonresidents alike!

 

[sremim]

Excellent post Boskee!











It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[elkman23]

nice post tooele, im a lifetime Az resident and am sick of hearing all the complaints that somepeople have. Alot of people have made good points, like coueskiller and Boskee and all i have to say to their comments is AMEN!!!

 

[BigFin]

I am a non-resident. AZ is the MOST fair of any state I apply in and they have quality better than most, if not all, the other states I apply in.

I am looking back on my previous comment to this thread in February. As I stated then, I do not like the system where the NRs strip tags are going to those with max points.

Even though I had max points and drew a strip tag this year, I think a system where the non-resident quota is filled with a draw among max point holders could use improvement. Strictly an issue among us NRs, as it really doesn't preclude residents from drawing without max points.

AZ is a leader in management, even though some feel otherwise. The price is an absolute bargain.

Thanks AZG&F and to the residents who volunteer lots of time, money, and labor to the cause of wildlife in their state.


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"

 

[sremim]

Here's a question,

Why is it ok for states like CO to have a preference point system, but AZ cannot? Is it because of the suddeness of it? Is it because it only applies to NR? Although I may be wrong, from what I understand CO used to have bonus points. Also, it seems as though most agree that G&F overlooked the issue it would create by giving max points holders the tags. It has only been a couple years, and I'm willing to bet they get it figured out in the next couple.







It's Bush's fault!!!

 

[Boskee]

Sremim, We have to wait for the right timetable to change the NR max bonus point issue. Some things can only be changed when that rule or regulation is in the window to alleviate things coming up for discussion at all times and clouding the meeting agendas. The commission and the department are aware of the issue and hopefully it'll get resolved when it comes up. I can tell you that Don Martin and a few others have definately been heard on the issue. Our system is so oversubscribed compared to Colorado that if we went to preference points the only individuals that would get drawn for many hunts would be those with the most preference points. That's not good for hunter recruitment and retention. Be happy with what we have and hopefully we can find a way to limit back to back tags to get more people in the field. That way we all win!

 

[buncoboy]

I am a non-resident and I have drawn several great tags in Arizona, and always had a great time. There are plenty of places to go in the western states when I do not get drawn. Residents have always been super nice and the resident hunters have been very helpful, except Don Martin (just kidding!). I believe enough non-resident tags are given out, anymore and the quality would probably be alot less. From what I have seen residents have done a lot of leg work, including clean up days, more than most other states. They deserve the tags way before I ever do. They are the ones who fight to keep quality hunting in Arizona, so if anything, thank them!

 

[gilamonster8]

lol I'm a 30+ years AZ res. and im maxed out on deer points, but it hasnt stoped me for havin some great deer hunts(bow)I hace no complaints yet with azgfd. That may change if the quality goes down on the tags a do get.