Expo a scam

>Hawkeye,
>Still looking for an answer.
>Did you witness the draw
>in person?


Cody---Why do you care whether Hawkeye witnessed the draw or not? No matter who goes to see the computer run they have no idea what the software was programmed to do and them signing the paper that they were there watching doesn't mean diddly as far as being able to say it was done properly just like I mentioned in another post!
 
>Hawkeye,
>Still looking for an answer.
>Did you witness the draw
>in person?

He already answered you... Post #65.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
So?

I'm not here to Claim there's anything like a Scam taking Place!

But would everybody agree to a Rule that Says you can only Draw One EXPO Tag Per year?

AKA giving a few others a Chance?

I Know I'll Probably make a few Guys Mad!:D
 
Bess,
I think that they would get zero push back on that. Its not a bad idea.

How about this questions, once you draw do you get the money back on the chance not drawn?
 
It is funny to watch the feeding frenzy and silliness of all of this. It amazes me that people are so willing to jump to the conclusion they are getting screwed. Many of you choose to ignore actual facts in favor of choosing to key in on things that seem to support your frustration.

I'll use my name as just one example. Grizz makes a comment on another forum that six Christensen's have drawn in the past two years. Hmmmm that seems fishy and adds support to this all being fixed. Yet when you look at actual facts you would realize its not really that connected as presented. I am realated to exactly 6 other Christensen's in the state of Utah. 1-My father, 2-My brother, neither drew. 3-Oldest son, 4- youngest son, 5-daughter, 6-Wife, none of them even applied and also have never drawn. So when you mix in facts is changes the "theory" of someone named Christensen drawing a tag.

I don't have any idea whether the draw is legit or not, just like I don't know if the draw done by the State of Utah is legit or not, or the draws that I apply for in New Mexico, Arizona, Idaho, Wyoming or Colorado are legit. I assume it is because to not have it be would be foolish and a huge risk in any of the above drawings.

When things are truly random you will always find interesting anomalies to key in on and question. I personally have drawn either a coues deer, elk or barbary tag on my first try in New Mexico draw in 3 consecutive years. My brother drew an AZ lope tag in AZ last year with ZERO points. This unit draws 2 tags total, 1 res and 1 non res (if a 2nd res doesn't draw first). This year he applied for Moose in Idaho for the first time ever, Yep he drew! What are the odds that we yank that many tags in the past 3 years all with ZERO points??? Those odds with on each hunt run around the 1% chance, figure those into overall odds.

You're all letting your hate for SFW cloud your logic. It's honestly reviling many fools.
 
>Bess,
>I think that they would get
>zero push back on that.
> Its not a bad
>idea.
>
>How about this questions, once you
>draw do you get the
>money back on the chance
>not drawn?

Hey Muley_73!

I Don't Think you're gonna Talk PEAYDAY & The Crew out of any Money!

In My Earlier Post I Mentioned Just Guys!

I Best add Gals to the List!:D
 
Bess,
I'll bet the RMEF would give the money back! Are at least credits toward the following years draw. Just sayin
 
>I'll use my name as just
>one example. Grizz makes
>a comment on another forum
>that six Christensen's have drawn
>in the past two years.
> Hmmmm that seems fishy
>and adds support to this
>all being fixed.

This isn't all about you. What I said was, "Six Christensen's have drawn tags in the last two years... guess I should change my name.

Jace Guymon drew tags each of the last two years too. Good for him."


I don't believe there has been a single Wilson, the 10th most common surname in USA, the last few years. There were however two Rollins in the last two years, three Dibble's this year, and three Latham's last year. Just making an observation about the propensity for certain names to pop back up. Read up and you will see I clearly stated I don't think the Expo draw is rigged.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-18 AT 10:35PM (MST)[p]Grizz,
I only used the example you chose to use to prove my point. Didn't misquote a single thing. Only used your words to prove my point. I'm not accusing you at all simply using your example and showing how things may appear completely different than what reality is.
 
>Grizz,
>I only used the example you
>chose to use to prove
>my point. Didn't misquote
>a single thing. Only
>used your words to prove
>my point. I'm not
>accusing you at all simply
>using your example and showing
>how things may appear completely
>different than what reality is.

Sounds good. And like I said on a previous post, good luck on your hunt.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-18 AT 12:53PM (MST)[p]I have purposefully tried to stay out of this discussion because I don't have any first-hand knowledge or information about the the drawing process used by SFW-MDF other than what is publicly available. That being said, I understand the questions and concerns raised by some sportsmen based upon the apparent anomalies that have occurred in past drawings. Are these anomalies the result of a random drawing process? Or are they the result of a problem or defect in the software being used or perhaps even some type of collusion? I don't know, and I will not jump to any conclusions or make any accusations unless I have some proof to back it up. As a result, I don't really have anything to add to that discussion.

I will, however, point out that SFW, MDF and the DWR are responsible for the questions and suspicion that constantly plague the expo and the expo tags. Had they handled this situation correctly and transparently from the beginning, sportsmen would not be questioning them at every turn. Unfortunately, that did not occur. Just to remind some of the newcomers of the time and effort that these groups have put into opposing the push for accountability and transparency, I will list some of their past actions: (1) There was no statutory or contractual requirement that any of the expo tag revenues be used for actual conservation for the first 6 years of the expo despite raising nearly $5.5 million off of our public tags; (2) In 2011-2012, SFW, MDF and the DWR opposed the efforts by sportsmen to modify the administrative rule and impose strict accountability and reporting requirments on the expo tags similar to what exists on conservation tags; (3) After substantial public outcry, in 2012 the DWR amended the adminstrative rule governing expo tags to require the groups to spend a whopping $1.50 from each $5 application fee on actual conservation projects, stating that "the conservation organization may retain up to $3.50 of each $5.00 application fee for administrative expenses" (R657-55-10(2)); (4) SFW and MDF refused to provide the public with the number of applicants and the drawing odds for the first several years of the Expo; (5) The DWR ignored its own administrative rule (R657-55-4) that spells out how the Expo contract is to be awarded and moved to a formal RFP process after receiving a proposal from RMEF that complied with the DWR's own administrative rule; (6) The DWR amended the administrative rule in 2015 to provide the groups with a 5-year option once the initial 5-year contract expires -- effectively locking the contract up for a decade at a time; (7) The DWR claims that it conducts "annual audits" of the Expo but no audit was performed in 2007, 2008 or 2009; (8) Moreover, the DWR "annual audits" from 2010-2012 only looked at the drawing process, the number of applicants and the amount of money generated from the Expo Tags -- they did not look at how any of the application fees were spent by the groups; (9) Since 2013, the DWR performed an annual audit to verify that the groups spend the $1.50 (30%) on approved conservation projects but the DWR's administrative rule requires no audit of the remaining 70% of the proceeds; (10) After additional public outcry, the DWR, SFW and MDF added language to the 2017-2021 expo contract stating that the groups will spend the reamining 70% on "policies, programs, projects and personnel that support wildlife conservation initiatives in Utah" -- however, there still is no audit or reporting requirement in the adminsitrative rule or the contract that applies to this 70% retained by the groups.

I could go on and on but I think you get the idea. These facts that illustrate that the DWR, SFW and MDF have a terrible track record when it comes to accountability and transparency relating to the expo tags and the monies generated from those tags. As a result, I am not surprised that some sprotsment assume the worst when they see anomalies in the drawing results. The lack of public trust is a direct result of these groups' past actions.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-18 AT 10:52AM (MST)[p]Deer,
Yes , auto correct that I did not catch. Irony does not escape me. :)
 
I like you Hawkeye. If nothing else you keep these organizations on their toes.

Now I would like to share a couple of stories of those who have extra-ordinary luck at the draws. I have a friend, with few points, drew the Arizona Strip across from the Pauns - LUCKY - not really. The hunt arrived, full moon, dry and hot, and the big buck had not moved off of the Pauns - UNLUCKY - not really. He hunted the full hunt, minus the last day, without seeing a descent buck. Then he ran into a friend who lives down there who have pictures of a large buck. He helped him shoot this very large 200 class buck - LUCKY - not really. He had heart problems after they loaded the buck. He was rushed to the Kanab Hospital. life flighted to St. George UNLUCKY - not really. I am glad to say he is OK now - REALLY!!

This next goes back many years. The Utah hunting draw was coming up and when the results came out one individual, who was very well known by the DWR, drew both a buffalo and antelope tag (at that time it was very hard to draw the antelope tag as well as the buff tag). I called, rant and raved a little bit on how it was rigged. By the way it was me who got the law changed so it wouldn't happened again. Anyway the person on the other end of the phone asked my name. He then proceeded to tell me he was from my area in Southern Utah and knew all my family. He was the supervisor who was in charge of the draws and would like me up there to personally draw the cards (never went though). Anyway was the person who drew the buff. tag - LUCKY - not really. He went out with some locals from Wayne County, guides you could say, and they showed a big BULL Buf. and told him to shoot it. It turned out to be a cow - UNLUCKY - could say that.
I drew the next year - LUCKY - not really. The truck wouldn't run. It was muddy and miserable, and there is no place in the house to put a buffalo head - REALLY
 
I have witnessed the drawing procedure at the DWR offices multiple years. I've sat side by side with the division employees reviewing the code for up to an hour, and heard them proclaim their satisfaction that the code is acceptable. (I am not an IT geek, and I wouldn't know if I studied the code for a year.) I don't have any SPECIFIC reason to mistrust any of the individuals involved. I have even selected the "phrase" that was populated in the drawing results. While this answered many of my questions, a closer look revealed many more. There are numerous ways for the process to be compromised, from the algorithm used to select "random" numbers, to the fact a hard copy is given to division employees to cross check the results against law enforcement records before publishing the "winners". There is no way to validate that changes aren't made to the "list" as it goes through this process.

Having said all that, I really don't think there is fraud in the drawing process. I would put the odds of incompetence a bit higher, but still quite low, and I think the individuals involved are generally trying to do their best to ensure a fair draw. Perhaps I am being na?ve, and I won't rule out that one lone wolf is compromising the good intentions of everyone else involved.

What I am convinced of, however, is that nothing to do with the Expo will ever truly be transparent, conducted according to accepted audit and accounting practices, or seriously investigated by the DWR as if they were truly trying to uncover potential flaws in the system. There is simply too much "trust Us" and failure to be transparent for anyone to ever have much certainty.

As Hawkeye pointed out above, the DWR's and SFW's track record and failure to follow their own rules in the past has created this atmosphere of mistrust. Like all situations related to honesty and trust, it is much more difficult to regain that broken trust. Ongoing refusal to be transparent and simple more strident and louder claims of "you can trust us", unsupported by actions, only breed more distrust. The arrogance is truly mind-boggling, but perhaps justifiable given the powerful supporters protecting SFW.

Bill
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-18 AT 03:51AM (MST)[p]^+1

Hawkeye...Maybe that is where RMEF messed up with their expo bid. They had chosen Fallon to conduct the draw for the 200 expo tags instead of GraySky.
Everything would have been good:)
Don would have been cheering "business as usual"!
Sorry, I just couldn't resist. But it does make you wonder.

Whoever from SFW or MDF gets to use the $31.50 of my $45.00 app fees towards their new truck, at least go buy a chevy.




"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
How has no one brought up the fact that they deleted previous year's data? They have never done that before.

Even requesting cached data doesn't work. Which means someone went through the trouble of requesting it be taken down.

Again everything could be on the up and up. But why the heck does everything look so bad? It's like they are trying to shoot themselves in the foot!
 
Maybe they took it down because a handful of idiots are continually looking for something to attack them on. Those idiots were calling out and making accusations against those on the list. If I was running a business and my clients were being attacked on public forums I would probably try and protect them as well. Especially if they had done nothing wrong. Why do they no longer post the names of who draws in the general draw?

I asked the question earlier. How many of you would bet your career, money ect. on your theories. If an audit was preformed and nothing was found what would you be willing to give up. Its easy to throw rocks and scream for accountablity as long as its one sided but I bet it would be pretty quite if it went both ways.
 
>Maybe they took it down because
>a handful of idiots are
>continually looking for something to
>attack them on. Those
>idiots were calling out and
>making accusations against those on
>the list. If I
>was running a business and
>my clients were being attacked
>on public forums I would
>probably try and protect them
>as well. Especially if they
>had done nothing wrong.
>Why do they no longer
>post the names of who
>draws in the general draw?
>
>
>I asked the question earlier.
>How many of you would
>bet your career, money ect.
>on your theories. If
>an audit was preformed and
>nothing was found what would
>you be willing to give
>up. Its easy to
>throw rocks and scream for
>accountablity as long as its
>one sided but I bet
>it would be pretty quite
>if it went both ways.
>
If you are being accused of running a shady operation it seems like the dumbest thing to do would be to hide and conceal information. Put everything out there...winners, draw odds, etc. Concealing this information only further enables those who are claiming something is not right with the draw.

On your second point - about accountability being one-sided...that is ridiculous. If a private entity is given public resources, then they should be accountable to the public. If the public has questions about how their resources are being managed, the private entity should be transparent and provide answers...your suggestion the people with concerns put up some sort of collateral to have an audit done to show public resources are being used wisely is simply absurd.

I will reiterate an earlier point I made - the scam here is probably not the actual drawing, but the way the DWR and SFW manage this contract. Perhaps enough people will become convinced that the expo draw is a scam and the event will fail to produce enough money to be sustainable and these tags can all just be added back to the regular Utah draw...wishful thinking I know...but it's nice to dream.
 
>Maybe they took it down because
>a handful of idiots are
>continually looking for something to
>attack them on. Those
>idiots were calling out and
>making accusations against those on
>the list. If I
>was running a business and
>my clients were being attacked
>on public forums I would
>probably try and protect them
>as well. Especially if they
>had done nothing wrong.
>Why do they no longer
>post the names of who
>draws in the general draw?
>
>
>I asked the question earlier.
>How many of you would
>bet your career, money ect.
>on your theories. If
>an audit was preformed and
>nothing was found what would
>you be willing to give
>up. Its easy to
>throw rocks and scream for
>accountablity as long as its
>one sided but I bet
>it would be pretty quite
>if it went both ways.
>

Small point. SFW doesn't own the tags. The public does. If the public want a info on their tags, its their right. Kinda the whole point though, SFW is running a business funded by the public. Maybe they should worry about "business" a little less?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I'm not surprised that you miss the point. The accusations I am referring to are not those pointed at SFW they are the ones pointed at the individuals.

You guys are really nothing but whiners and obsessed with finding a silver bullet to end what you hate. Good luck, you're gonna need it.
 
In 10 +/- years of running the ?lack of transparency from SFW/MDF? up and down the MM flag pole where has it got you??? No where!!!

How about you guys try circling your wagons around the state capital and running your ?lack of transparency? up and down that flag pole...
 
>Tikka,
>That's reality world. These guys
>prefer interweb echo chamber world.
>


Isn?t it exhausting??? MM land isn't going to change it or turn up the ?silver bullet? they're looking for...
 
The reality is nothing is going to ?change it? until at least 2027, and even then no change will occur without a major political shift.

Sorry for your exhaustion. I hope you recover soon.

-Hawkeye-
 
>The reality is nothing is going
>to ?change it? until at
>least 2027, and even then
>no change will occur without
>a major political shift.
>
>Sorry for your exhaustion. I
>hope you recover soon.
>
>-Hawkeye-


Come on Hawkeye you can't give up that easy... you've come so far, like I said circle the wagons around the capitol and get it done...
 
>>The reality is nothing is going
>>to ?change it? until at
>>least 2027, and even then
>>no change will occur without
>>a major political shift.
>>
>>Sorry for your exhaustion. I
>>hope you recover soon.
>>
>>-Hawkeye-
>
>
> Come on Hawkeye you can't
>give up that easy... you've
>come so far, like I
>said circle the wagons around
>the capitol and get it
>done...



$fw won, no doubt. They loaded the WB with members. THE DON spread a ton of the tag money on capital hill. There's not a lot left. While we were getting to speed. $fw bought the statehouse.

I wonder my friend, where do you go when the deep pockets grow tired of guys like you? You average guys aren't the focus, where do you go when the 6 figure tag guys grow tired of your competition?

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Tikka-

I am not giving up. I was just offering my opinion as to the likelihood of seeing any real change. The state has had multiple opportunities to correct the shortcomings of the expo tag system and address the legitimate concerns of sportsmen. In every instance, however, the state has fought against increased transparency, accountability and competition. Oops, I used those dreaded words again! Over the last few years, I have spoken with folks at the DWR, the Wildlife Board, the Legislature, and the Governor?s office. In my opinion, the current decision makers are happy with the status quo. Why do I say this? Exhibit A - Rather than addressing the problems, the state chose to provide the groups with an additional 5-year option on the current contract effectively preventing any real change until 2027.

Kudos to SFW and MDF for hosting a successful and entertaining expo for the last 10 years. And additional kudos to SFW and MDF for buying power and influence with our politicians and decision makers. I am guessing that may be what the parties meant in the current contract when it states that expo funds can be used to promote ?policy.? That sounds like a fancy word for lobbying or greasing the skids with politicians.

-Hawkeye-
 
>>>The reality is nothing is going
>>>to ?change it? until at
>>>least 2027, and even then
>>>no change will occur without
>>>a major political shift.
>>>
>>>Sorry for your exhaustion. I
>>>hope you recover soon.
>>>
>>>-Hawkeye-
>>
>>
>> Come on Hawkeye you can't
>>give up that easy... you've
>>come so far, like I
>>said circle the wagons around
>>the capitol and get it
>>done...
>
>
>
>$fw won, no doubt. They
>loaded the WB with members.
> THE DON spread a
>ton of the tag money
>on capital hill. There's
>not a lot left.
>While we were getting to
>speed. $fw bought the statehouse.
>
>
>I wonder my friend, where do
>you go when the deep
>pockets grow tired of guys
>like you? You average guys
>aren't the focus, where do
>you go when the 6
>figure tag guys grow tired
>of your competition?
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Well I guess I lay down say uncle and complain on MM about it....
 
I only found results for 2018, 2017 and 2015 and she only drew in 2018. Perhaps she did draw in 2016 and 2014, but I can't find those results online.

That being said doesn't hurt shoot the three year in a row theory
 
Some changes have come due to the public pressure largely gathered from online forums such as this. The process is not the same as it was 8 years ago, and while those changes do not go far enough for many people, they are better than they were and what SFW would have if the organization had it their way only.

There can be great power in utilizing forums for grass roots movements. I've seen it more than once. Just because a few people try to high jack every thread about this topic and declare victory does not make it so. This will change over time. I suspect that with enough rope, this process will eventually hang itself.
 
Vanilla,
Good point. There is no question that groups come and go. I will say this, the day SFW disappears it will not be another Sportsmans organization you see on the horizon taking the power.
 
I don't believe SFW will disappear, and I don't even want them to. I'm specifically talking about how this expo process, particularly with the tags, will change. I suspect eventually we'll see another push to see this process change, and when some of the old players are no longer at the table, will the new decision makers feel the same as the old?

Time will tell.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-18 AT 10:15AM (MST)[p]Birdman: "I only found results for 2018,
>2017 and 2015 and she
>only drew in 2018. Perhaps
>she did draw in 2016
>and 2014, but I can't
>find those results online.
>
>That being said doesn't hurt shoot
>the three year in a
>row theory"

***I don't have time to look all that stuff up, but I know she has drawn at least 3 or 4 tags in the last 5 years or so and one year she drew more than 1 tag!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-18 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]By 2027, we will see just how well our big game herds have managed over the years with a TON of money raised ?for conservation?
Time will tell. I won't hold my breath that things will be better. But I can guarantee you that pockets will be FAT for some due to all this.

If it's a failure or catastrophic, I'm sure it will be blamed on horrible weather or some other BS excuse.

But I'm sure there are many more optimistic folks out there than myself.

"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
I have a challenge for a computer guy.Design a draw program and conduct a draw based on the draw odds for the last couple years and see if you ever see a person draw two tags
muleybucks
 
>I have a challenge for a
>computer guy.Design a draw program
>and conduct a draw based
>on the draw odds for
>the last couple years and
>see if you ever see
>a person draw two tags
>
>muleybucks

Or you can read a basic statistics book and see that it is certainly possible to see that outcome given that there are thousands of applicants and likely 100s of people that put in for 100 plus tags at the event.
 
I can't be so quick to doubt it, as I drew a bighorn sheep, then mt. goat, and finally moose three years in a row. Might as well get those pesky OIL tags out of the way right???
 
>I can't be so quick to
>doubt it, as I drew
>a bighorn sheep, then
>mt. goat, and finally moose
>three years in a row.
>Might as well get those
>pesky OIL tags out of
>the way right???


Nice work!!!! ???
 
Does anyone out there have copies of the EXPO tag winners for 2012, 2014, 2016 and/or 2017? In ANY form? If so, please PM me. Thanks! Lee
 
>Does anyone out there have copies
>of the EXPO tag winners
>for 2012, 2014, 2016 and/or
>2017? In ANY form? If
>so, please PM me. Thanks!
>Lee

Post #9 on the thread below has a copy of last year's (2017) winners (scroll down towards the last half of the post). You may recall that last year we had the big huffnpuff here on MM over Heidee Latham winning 3 licenses at the expo.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/24351.html
 
>Post #9 on the thread below
>has a copy of last
>year's (2017) winners (scroll down
>towards the last half of
>the post). You may recall
>that last year we had
>the big huffnpuff here on
>MM over Heidee Latham winning
>3 licenses at the expo.
>
>
>http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/24351.html


***That is the gal, and not Heather, that I remembered getting 3 tags in one year. Heather has drawn several tags in the last fe years, but probably not in the same year. Sorry about the mistaken identity!
 

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