Expo - Bad For Sportsmen?

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
8,105
This afternoon ten guys and three ladies from south central Utah released another six hundred hen pheasants on State lands. On March 3 another release of another trailer load of pheasants will be added to the ones released today.

SFW purchased the hens and other SFW members hauled the pheasants from the hatchery in Blanding to Salina. They not only paid for the birds but they purchased the fuel and paid somebody to drive from Salt Lake City to Blanding and back, over 600 miles. By the time they caught, banded and boxed 600 pheasants it was a two day trip, somebody paid for meals and a motel room. Now these were hen pheasants, last November they did the same thing with roosters, on three different weekends for public hunters, not for just SFW members, but for anybody with an upland game license.

Then they did it again on at least two occasions that I know of, specifically for youth hunters that had never hunted pheasants before.

That was this year. SFW did the same thing last year. How much did SFW charge for these pheasants and pheasant hunting activities. None a single dollar. All costs were paid out of SFW funds, funds raised at the Expo and other fund raising activities.

Pheasant released by SFW were over $40,000 in the last 18 months.

Last year a local high school wanted to teach high school students to fish.
(The National Fishing in Schools Program is a nationwide, in school program, that teaches the positive lifetime activity of fishing to students in elementary schools, middle schools and high schools. NFSP educates students about fish, insects, aquatic environment, resource stewardship and conservation using fishing, and learning the skill of casting, as the instructional tool.)

SFW gave the instructor $1,750.00, the exact amount the instructor asked for. Where did SFW get the money it gave this instructor? Funds from the Epxo and other fund raising activities.

Sevier County asked if local sportsmen find any money to give the County for a raccoon and fox bounty. The County came up with $2000 out of it's budget, SFW added another $2000 from the Expo profits and other fund raising activities. Expo money and other fund raising activities paid for the bounty funds.

Three years ago the US Forest Service need a high fence on the Monroe Mountain to protect an natural burn in an aspen forest. SFW gave the Forest Service the seed money that allowed the USFS to build a $300,000 fence. Fencing the burn kept the Forest Service from demanding a significant elk reduction on the Monroe Mountain, which has been a producer of some of Utah's best elk hunting for the last 25 years. Where did SFW get the money to donate? The Expo and other fund raising activities.

The Minerville Reservoir dam needed emergency repairs last fall or the irrigation company was going to have to drain the Reservoir and lose thousands or maybe millions of dollars of trout and bass. Fish that the UDWR had put there at great expense to us sportsmen, for our fishing pleasure. The UDWR and the Irrigation Company asked SFW if they had any money to make the repairs, so the water and the fishery could be preserved. The repair was funded by SFW at an expense of over $20,000. Where did SFW get the money, from the Expo and other fund raising activities.

Over $100,000 for the Mule Deer transplant on the Pahvant Unit. Who paid? SFW. Where'd they get the money, you already know, the Expo and other funding activities.

All these funded projects where paid for by SFW in the last 18 months. Do a few individuals that work to raise these funds by holding the Expo and work to put together other fund raising activities, so these funds can be give to these hunting and fish project? Of course people are paid, it take time and effort to raise the money to give to wildlife conservation.

This isn't new information to the sportsmen that dislike or mistrust SFW, each for their own reason for the dislike or mistrust. I know they have heard the same song and dance from Birdman, myself and other members of the SFW family over the years. For these folks, nothing Birdman or anyone else can say that will change the minds of those that have become opposed to SFW. I'm sharing this information for the hundreds of other Monster Mule members and sportsmen that only know about SFW from what they read on the these internet forums.

To those that don't know anything about SFW other than what they read here and else where let me share this.

I've been a member of many Utah and National Conservation Groups for the last 39 years. Been on an number of their Boards and given thousand of dollars and thousand of hours of hard earned dollars to these groups and wildlife conservation and I'm not a wealthy man but any stretch of the imagination. I've never been involved with any conservation organization that puts more of it's earning back into wildlife conservation in time, effort and money than SFW. None.

Twenty years ago SFW made a commitment to Utah sportsmen and that was to grow a powerful sportsmen's voice with the UDWR and the political entities that control hunting and fishing decisions in the State of Utah.

Prior to 1994, sportsmen had lost nearly all influence of hunting and fishing decisions in Utah. It has taken twenty years for SFW to build that powerful voice and influence. It has taken millions of dollars and 10 million tears by those who have worked to accomplish the original goal. There have been walls to climb and bridges to build that has taken twenty years to get done. Have there been some unfortunate wrecks along the way, absolutely but, SFW does now have the voice for sportsmen they have worked so hard for. Yes, a powerful voice. They can finally influence conservation, hunting and fishing decisions on all levels within the State, from the UDWR and the Legislature on down to local city and county governments.

There has never been a secret to SFW's objectives, they've have broad cast it from every available media source in the State from day one. Of course, some sportsmen want a different voice and oppose the level of influence that SFW has achieved, I understand and would expect that, I wish it wasn't that way but human nature is predictable, you can't make all of the sportsmen happy all of the time. You certain get to see evidence of that here on MM.

Now some will say I've been bought and paid for because SFW sent my son, an veteran from the war in Irag on a fishing trip to Alaska, along with dozens of other soldiers that have no connection to SFW, only my son. I don't ask for SFW to do that, neither did the fathers of all the other boys that have been sent on SFW's Hunts for Heros. For all I know, they drew names out of a hat. Four years ago, John Bair a SFW member and Banquet Fund Raising Auctioneer drew a sheep tag at the Expo, so John and I and any other vocal support of SFW are labeled as "bought and paid for" by the folks that dislike and mistrust SFW. What should I do, hide and be embarrassed or continue to share why I support SFW? As some have said, a lot of eyes are watching SFW, that's good, shine a bright light, personally I like the light because I've seen nothing to hide. The light has been shining on SFW for a long time, as those that oppose SFW's loud and effective sportsmen's voice have been attempting to find something, anything, where they can stop the fund raising and the fund giving abilities away from SFW, but mostly they want to take away SFW's influence, the influence SFW told every single person in Utah, sportsmen,non-sportsmen and politician they were going to try to develop.

So far as where does all of the money earned at the Expo go? I threw all lot of it into the air this afternoon, in the way of hen pheasants on the Sevier River's banks in Sevier County. I hope you'll get to shoot some of the pheasant SFW bought and release for you this fall.

DC
 
Well said DeLoss! We need more of that kind of information made public. I appreciate your time and work for all of Utah's sportsman....Thank you..
a*r
 
Is SFW for or against stream access. This is critical for me and for other Sportman who do not have millions of dollars to buy beach front stream property. I heard that SFW helped convice Gov. Herbert to get rid of the streamside access law that gave us sportsman access to public water to fish. What side does SFW stand on and why?

I am all for access for us public to enjoy. Rivers have provided a natural corridor for people to travel on like a road for thousands of years. Why are we allowing wealthy property owners to keep these public waters for themselves?
 
Has SFW donated any $$$ to USAC to help fight for public access to public water that was recently taken from us?
 
Didn't SFW and Big Game Forever get $300,000 to fight the wolf reintroduction to Utah that's not even in the works, twice?

BTW, I hope the Pheasants were wild or they have about a 2% survival rating.

Which SFW member made the money off those Pheasants? Sorry but always a little skeptical when it comes to that outfit.

I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-14 AT 06:19AM (MST)[p]For those of you that went to the expo, that in itself is a huge boost for everything hunting in Utah. I was a vendor there, made a bunch of friends and some great contacts with other vendors that will help each of us with our respective companies. Talked with a few guys that, like me really appreciated the chance to show people what we have to offer. I'm very grateful for the expo and for what it does. It gives a lot of us small guys a way to get our product out and rub shoulders with others that are in the same boat and to get help and advice from other companies that have been through the startup struggles.

Who cares if SFW/MDF make a ton of money on the expo? They should. Otherwise, what's the point of putting it on?

Don't go for them, go for the vendors that are there trying to do something different, trying to grow their own company. Good hell, its blue collar, free enterprise at its best.

For some reason, people get hung up on a few issues and can't see the other side.

Now, I'm going out to kill some coyotes. Some guys probably think that's bad for sportsman too.
 
I Don't even Hunt Pheasants anymore & Haven't for years!

One things for sure here in the Basin now days!

If somebody doesn't plant/Release a few Birds for Guys & Gals that Buy Licenses and take Pheasant Hunting seriously they'd be Hunting for something that just ain't there!

My Son Helped the SFW/DWR this last Fall releasing Pheasants in various places around the Uintah Basin!

My Son also Helps Release/Re-Locate Turkeys the last few years!

I'll say it once again!

I don't agree with everything the SFW does!

But at Least they are doing something for GAWDS SAKES!

Here's a Pic Earlier this year of Jr Releasing some Turkeys!

Ya,I'm Perty Proud of My Son!

5537blake2014_1.jpg










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
First off, and I am more than critical, thanks for the pheasants.

Again, that is great you want to tell us about what you did, and what it cost(although you must be paying out the azz for pheasants, my friend who owns a club doesn't charge clients to shoot them what your accounting says you paid). So here is the same challenge that has come up for a decade, the same one that is being challenged with the WB, and quite frankly the one that will cost you your welfare in 2016. HOW MUCH DOES SFW MAKE, HOW MUCH(hard number not percentage based on some fairy dust) DID THEY SPEND LAST YEAR ON ACUTAL CONSERVATION PROJECTS(affter salaries, pr, lobbying, etc, actual projects)?

2nd question. How is the mule deer population in the 20yrs since SFW came on the scene to save it?

3rd question. Which legislators is SFW currently lobbying to help SPORTSMAN access streams? How much is SFW spending to help SPORTSMAN simply wade waterways?

As for drawing sheep tags? At work we have a quarterly drawing for a dinner and gift card, because I do the drawing I AM NOT ELIGIBLE, but you can't imagine why folks might have thought the fix was in for a sheep tag?

Final question. (We already know because somehow THE DON got stupid and let it out to the media, so this is a bit of a test), what is SFW's view on the North American Model for wildlife managment?

Again, not I or anyone else for that matter doubts that SFW members are doing some good works. No one is dumb enough to think that you can eat the costs yourself(as a working stiff). What we do think is the price(and thats the money we can find out about) is TOO HIGH. We find it interesting that a SPORTSMANS group would go against stream access, that they would be for private ownership of all wildlife(see final quesion), and that they would be harder to pin down on finances(money from SPORTSMEN) than the mafia. Lastly we watch what RMEF and DU produce year after year, without 200 tags(yeah I know banquets, but they don't get 200) and we can see the explosions in elk and duck populations, and yearly additions to public access all the while SFW spends a lot on PR. Again thanks for the pheasants, but the expo on JUST the $5 tags brought in more than a million dollars, so the numbers as usual with SFW don't add up.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>I Don't even Hunt Pheasants anymore
>& Haven't for years!
>
>One things for sure here in
>the Basin now days!
>
>If somebody doesn't plant/Release a few
>Birds for Guys & Gals
>that Buy Licenses and take
>Pheasant Hunting seriously they'd be
>Hunting for something that just
>ain't there!
>
>My Son Helped the SFW/DWR this
>last Fall releasing Pheasants in
>various places around the Uintah
>Basin!
>
>My Son also Helps Release/Re-Locate Turkeys
>the last few years!
>
>I'll say it once again!
>
>I don't agree with everything the
>SFW does!
>
>But at Least they are doing
>something for GAWDS SAKES!
>
>Here's a Pic Earlier this year
>of Jr Releasing some Turkeys!
>
>
>Ya,I'm Perty Proud of My Son!
>
>
>
5537blake2014_1.jpg

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red
>Hot Barrel & My Dead
>Cold Hands I Shall go
>down Fighting for American Pride
>& Rights!
>I Know I'm Out Numbered by
>Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll
>Throw Their Hands in the
>air & I know I
>can't Lick the U.S. Military
>by Myself when they Turn
>on us but I'll make
>
>you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a
>Situation where I Hope to
>Hell All Americans become True
>Americans once again & Stand
>up for their Rights!

Elk(if thats your real name) why is your boy trying to squeez that bird to death? What did you all have for Thanksgiving?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-14
>AT 06:19?AM (MST)

>
>For those of you that went
>to the expo, that in
>itself is a huge boost
>for everything hunting in Utah.
>I was a vendor there,
>made a bunch of friends
>and some great contacts with
>other vendors that will help
>each of us with our
>respective companies. Talked with a
>few guys that, like me
>really appreciated the chance to
>show people what we have
>to offer. I'm very grateful
>for the expo and for
>what it does. It gives
>a lot of us small
>guys a way to get
>our product out and rub
>shoulders with others that are
>in the same boat and
>to get help and advice
>from other companies that have
>been through the startup struggles.
>
>
>Who cares if SFW/MDF make a
>ton of money on the
>expo? They should. Otherwise, what's
>the point of putting it
>on?
>
>Don't go for them, go for
>the vendors that are there
>trying to do something different,
>trying to grow their own
>company. Good hell, its blue
>collar, free enterprise at its
>best.
>
>For some reason, people get hung
>up on a few issues
>and can't see the other
>side.
>
>Now, I'm going out to kill
>some coyotes. Some guys probably
>think that's bad for sportsman
>too.

Who the hell cares? ME. So does every guy sitting on waiting periods, or in point creep. Those 200 tags came from us. WE CARE that something we pay for is going to pad SFW/MDF pockets. I CARE that MY TAGS are going to a group that opposes my ACCESS TO STREAMS. I CARE that they are for PRIVATE WILDLIFE OWNERSHIP NATION WIDE. I CARE. I care that I hand SFW over $1million just in $5 lottery tickets for those tags and if I dare ask what they did with it I get told to F-off. I CARE, for the same reason I care about anyone ABUSING GOVERNMENT WELFARE
Sorry man, but your statement is the prime example of SFW. "Who cares if the majority gets screwed in the process, we made a ton of money, it was good for us!"

As for the vendors like yourself, I don't know how old you are but we for years attended the Doug Miller sportsman show. Which was exactly what the expo is, except WITHOUT GOVERNMENT WELFARE. There were tons of vendors, tons of people attented.

"Who cares if SFW/MDF made a ton of money, they should?" UNFREAKINGBELIEVABLE!!!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
4100fps,

You have so much hate for sportsman... Your list of unapproved sportsman appears to be longer than the ones you support. You already showed us your hate for outfitters and ranchers. Tell us who do you approve of? If any???
 
Hossblur, I also can not wait until 2016 to see what happens. The question is what groups will be there to bid for the 200 tags. It is not set in stone that SFW will get them. Any group that meets the criteria can bid on the tags. So far no one has been interested. I would bet that the plans for the tags will be the same and any group that is interested can apply. Question is, will any other group apply.
 
How is it that SFW can spout the numbers off on their pet projects but can't provide any other form of accounting? No one has ever asked how much it costs to release pheasants. They want the BIG picture...and they are still waiting.
 
The Cancer Spreads:

"Double the "wealth tags" in Alaska and up the profit to the "non-profit" from 10 to 25%!

http://www.legis.state.ak.us/basis/g...61A&session=28

Proposing to sell 40 permits. When will this end!?!?

Alaska's game department is NOT hurting for money, nor are there any special projects that need to be done. They can't spend all the money they get now! There is absolutely no need for these extra tags... well unless you're SFW and get half of them."

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=258107

Time to take action and write Alaska legislators on this bull****.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
How can I answer the frustrations and maybe the anger expressed by offended sportsmen?

The best way I can think of is to try and answer the dislike and mistrust of sportsmen that believe the Expo and the SFW people that host the Expo, is to draw a parallel to my own family. I hope they will forgive me for doing that.

My wife and I have five children, our children have married and have children of their own, our grandchildren. So we now have this large family which includes my original five and their spouses. My children's spouses are all great people but each was raised by different parents, from different cultures, different locations in the country, and different ways of doing things, from my original children. That being the case, each of my grandchildren has been raised by two parents, each with a unique and different back ground than our original family. My children are spread out in ages from 40 to 30, my grandchildren are spread out from ages 22 years to 18 months. Their occupations are as diverse as can possible be. Some work in the medical industry, some in the recycling industry, some in business for them selves, some work for the government, some are still working on a degree in college, some are a stay at home Moms. Some live close to my wife and I, most live as far as 750 miles from home and the rest live between 250 to 500 miles away. Some are outdoors lovers, some prefer city culture. Some like country music, some prefer the "head banger crap". (Sorry, my bias shows once in a while.) The point is, very much like the family of sportsmen, our family encompasses a large caldron of personalities, likes, dislike, biases, needs, wants and wishes. Yet, my wife and I love every single one of them and spend the bulk of our time, effort and limited funds with our children, their spouses, and our grandchildren. But trust me, we have conflicts. Each of these family members has very real needs, wants and wishes for something different, from each other, and from my wife and I.

There is the reality in our family, and I believe it is very similar in the sport hunting and fishing community. On any given day my wife and I have to make choices that have very real consequences on each member of our large and diverse family. How often you think my wife and I even agree on what we should do, let alone every member of this caldron of people that constitutes the Christensen family? We have limited money, we have limited time, we have our own bias and values, as well as our own needs, wants, and wishes. Not every thing my wife or I do is for the other members of the family. There are occasions when we do what we want. After all, we both worked for 45/50 years to get where we are today and we feel a desire to share with our extended family but sometimes we just like a bowl of ice cream for ourselves.

HOWEVER.............on any give day, for any given reason, my wife and/or eye will have to choice to do something or choice not to do something that just pisses somebody in the family off, to the degree that we get a blast of resentment, tears, anger, hostility that is very hurtful to my wife and I. On some occasions these emotions and frustrations have lasted for months, even years, and while they almost always settle down eventually and the offended individual or individuals work through the issue and reunite with the warmth of family (or what every you call it) those memories still linger in the back of their minds and on occasion flash again, as other decisions bring about new frustrations.

My family love and care for each other. They come together to and play and help each other with problems. They call each other numerous times a day. They are far from perfect, neither are my wife and I but, we try to hold it together, and yet as I set here today, I know, with absolute certainty, so time soon, over some different need, want or wish that some member of my large extended family has, I will do or say something that will royally pisses some one of them off and I'll get a blast of anger and dislike, very much like some sportsmen give SFW, or I might add, any other organization that is made up of a broad diversity of individuals with unique needs, wants and wishes.

And.......no Mom and I aren't going to go over our check book, or income or our expenditure so you can compare to see which family member got more or less of our limited resources. We earned it and we'll decide how we're going to spend it. Sorry but that is just how it's going to be.

To those anger or frustrated sportsmen I offer this, the same as I offer my children, their spouses and my grandchildren. Mom and I can not make every one happy all at the time, it simple can't happen because of our size and diversity. We're doing our best and we understand your anger and frustration and why your pissed off. We need you in the family, we appreciate your contributions, your interests and your talents. Please try to see the big picture, it's difficult to do sometimes but we are stronger as a group, with our differences, than we are as individuals, fighting from with in.
That's it for today, I've go a full day of fun in the outdoors planned, I hope you do as well.

DC
 
>How is it that SFW can
>spout the numbers off on
>their pet projects but can't
>provide any other form of
>accounting? No one has ever
>asked how much it costs
>to release pheasants. They want
>the BIG picture...and they are
>still waiting.

I posted a couple of things they've Helped with chewyman!

I'd like to see the Mule Deer come back more than anybody!

SFW Has Helped with other Projects!

I'll let others Post em!

The SFW Will never be able to satisfy nor Fix all the Problems we have!

Fish & Wildlife stands for more than just Bringing Big Bucks back!

As I've Posted for many of years!

I don't agree with everything the SFW does,I never have!

Everything in todays World has become a Big Money thing,Wished I could Fix it,If I Could I would!

When there's a Chance Me & Jr Won't get a Deer Tag We do Enjoy Hunting the Thunder Chickens!

It Ain't for everybody,never said it was,But We Enjoy it,and Our Turkey Numbers have been down,Has anybody else been Planting/Releasing Birds?












[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
>>I Don't even Hunt Pheasants anymore
>>& Haven't for years!
>>
>>One things for sure here in
>>the Basin now days!
>>
>>If somebody doesn't plant/Release a few
>>Birds for Guys & Gals
>>that Buy Licenses and take
>>Pheasant Hunting seriously they'd be
>>Hunting for something that just
>>ain't there!
>>
>>My Son Helped the SFW/DWR this
>>last Fall releasing Pheasants in
>>various places around the Uintah
>>Basin!
>>
>>My Son also Helps Release/Re-Locate Turkeys
>>the last few years!
>>
>>I'll say it once again!
>>
>>I don't agree with everything the
>>SFW does!
>>
>>But at Least they are doing
>>something for GAWDS SAKES!
>>
>>Here's a Pic Earlier this year
>>of Jr Releasing some Turkeys!
>>
>>
>>Ya,I'm Perty Proud of My Son!
>>
>>
>>
5537blake2014_1.jpg

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red
>>Hot Barrel & My Dead
>>Cold Hands I Shall go
>>down Fighting for American Pride
>>& Rights!
>>I Know I'm Out Numbered by
>>Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll
>>Throw Their Hands in the
>>air & I know I
>>can't Lick the U.S. Military
>>by Myself when they Turn
>>on us but I'll make
>>
>>you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a
>>Situation where I Hope to
>>Hell All Americans become True
>>Americans once again & Stand
>>up for their Rights!
>
>Elk(if thats your real name) why
>is your boy trying to
>squeez that bird to death?
> What did you all
>have for Thanksgiving?
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


Hey hoss!

Once in a while We like a Change from Deer & Elk Steaks!:D









[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....

DC thanks for the rundown on these funds.

This is what is in front of the curtain. We all understand
there's plenty behind the curtain. Does paying a
legislator to propose a bill that will undermine the ability
to make changes with the expo come from these funds??

Does opposing a bill like HB37 come from these funds??

Does lobbying legislators to grease the skids for a couple
$300K grants with 0 oversight come from these funds??

we are constantly being told to look at the left hand while the
right hand slaps us in the face.

if you are going to provide a partial accounting, why not
provide a total accounting conducted by an unrelated, unbiased
3rd party?? If it's all roses why not shout it from the rooftops?

MDF and SFW would have none of it when asked. Once backed in to a corner they made minor concessions. I'm pretty sure that things will be one hell of a lot different after the 2015 expo.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
You can form small town gun clubs that pay for and release birds..Been doing out here since the 70's. You dont need SFW, get off your azzes and get it going.

as mentioned,98% of them are dead within a month..
 
Things may well be a hell of a lot different after the 2015, maybe it will be worse. Change goes can go both directions, yes? What one sells as good change another may as see destructive change. Getting to control the change is the challenge, isn't it.

The run down of funds I shared was only a few from south central Utah, the one's I've known about or had personal involvement in. I don't know all of the projects and funding efforts SFW has done in all the other parts of Utah. Can't comment on those, however, based on what's been done in our neighborhood I'd have to guess SFW has done similar funding project throughout all parts of the State.

Having influence requires building relationships. SFW builds relationships. Sometimes relationship fail or don't turn out the way the parties hoped they would. Relationship sometimes run their course and come to an end. Others last longer. Having positive relationships with influential individuals helps, in fact it's critical to generating outcomes. That's way we all would like to have positive relationships with wileywapati, BobCat, Founder, SlamDunk, etc here on MM. They are all influential people and they get things done. It's the same with SFW and other conservation orgs. They build relationships with politicians and the movers and shakers in our communities because when they want change they need these people's influence. There is no secret to SFW's desire to influence Legislature. Legislators make laws that effect sportsmen. Individuals don't get too far with Legislators one on one but large groups of like minded individuals can change the minds of Legislators, thank God.

If you don't like what SFW's is doing, join the group, bring worthwhile value to table, bring good ideas and achievable wildlife goals into the organization, be willing to give and take with the others in the org. that have their own set of wants and needs. In time, with team work, meaning you give and take inside the group, you begin to have influence within SFW. That is what I did. I literally was the SFW's opposition in 1994. I was the Treasure for the Board of the Utah Wildlife Federation. We we're locking an aggressive battle with SFW over influence in the State. SFW won, UWF lost. I started over. Now I'm a supporter, a jock strap kind of thing, if you know what I mean, for SFW. In retrospect I've come to believe the ideals and ideologies of the National Wild Federation are harmful and SFW's are not, I am going to try to be where I can have my voice heard. Frankly I wish SFW had a more National foot print. I would invite all sportsmen to join and become an active part of a great conservation organization.

DC
 
Wiley, For your information SFW is not apposing HB 37 nor are they for it. They are just neutral. SFW stands for Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. Not Sportsmen only for big game. It is true that the money mostly comes from big game projects and most goes there. However there are pheasants to be planted, that were put in clear lake last year and reproduced very successfully. They were marked and those birds were seen with chicks in the spring. Fish are also being planted and moved with SFW money. Difference is you can not sell a big pheasant tag or a big fish tag like you can big game. So should SFW let all other outdoor activities go and just work on big game? Not all sportsmen are big game hunters. They are still sportsmen. They enjoy the great outdoors. Should SFW go against them and not help other sportsmen? I think not.


Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, It's about learning to dance in the rain
 
DC is very wise.

It does come down to influence and relationships.

Unfortunately that influence has developed in to a business
model that is not hunter friendly. It is specific hunter
friendly.

Any Org that opposes the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation will never be the place for me.

Any Org that uses funds derived from a public resource to
limit other sportsmen will never be the place for me.

DC you are correct, SFW does make things happen and at the present they are the big dog in the yard.

The most troubling part of this situation is that a whole generation of hunters don't know any better.

DC you are a high character individual, agree with your ridiculous deer management ideas or not, I don't think you have personal ulterior motives. I believe in the beginning SFW was the same, 20 years ago. Now days I feel the stall is knee deep on a mare and could use a good shoveling out and a fresh layer of straw and sawdust. I hope you and Cody are the Straw and Sawdust, cause whats there now can be smelled by all a long ways off.






"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Bird, I clearly remember watching Don on the news
call fishermen "selfish" for not willingly conceding
their right under the Utah Constitution to access water.





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
I think/hope the gravy train is going to stop in 2016. If SFW is going to give 90% back on the ground no SFW employ will get that Christmas bonus.
 
>Hossblur, I also can not
>wait until 2016 to see
>what happens. The question >is what groups will be
>there to bid for the
>200 tags. It is
>not set in stone that
>SFW will get them.
>Any group that meets the
>criteria can bid on the
>tags. So far no
>one has been interested.
>I would bet that the
>plans for the tags will
>be the same and any
>group that is interested can
>apply. Question is, will
>any other group apply.

Bird, again I am waiting to hear the numbers, but since you spun this way, my money and support will be to whoever DOESN'T get tags. Or in another way, to the groups that push to do away with the welfare to start with.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>How can I answer the frustrations
>and maybe the anger expressed
>by offended sportsmen?
>
>The best way I can think
>of is to try and
>answer the dislike and mistrust
>of sportsmen that believe the
>Expo and the SFW people
>that host the Expo, is
>to draw a parallel to
>my own family. I
>hope they will forgive me
>for doing that.
>
>My wife and I have five
>children, our children have married
>and have children of their
>own, our grandchildren. So
>we now have this large
>family which includes my original
>five and their spouses.
>My children's spouses are all
>great people but each was
>raised by different parents, from
>different cultures, different locations in
>the country, and different ways
>of doing things, from my
>original children. That being
>the case, each of my
>grandchildren has been raised by
>two parents, each with a
>unique and different back ground
>than our original family.
>My children are spread out
>in ages from 40 to
>30, my grandchildren are spread
>out from ages 22 years
>to 18 months. Their
>occupations are as diverse as
>can possible be. Some
>work in the medical industry,
>some in the recycling industry,
>some in business for them
>selves, some work for the
>government, some are still working
>on a degree in college,
>some are a stay at
>home Moms. Some live
>close to my wife and
>I, most live as far
>as 750 miles from home
>and the rest live between
>250 to 500 miles away.
> Some are outdoors lovers,
>some prefer city culture.
>Some like country music, some
>prefer the "head banger crap".
> (Sorry, my bias shows
>once in a while.)
>The point is, very much
>like the family of sportsmen,
>our family encompasses a large
>caldron of personalities, likes, dislike,
>biases, needs, wants and wishes.
> Yet, my wife and
>I love every single one
>of them and spend the
>bulk of our time, effort
>and limited funds with our
>children, their spouses, and our
>grandchildren. But trust me,
>we have conflicts. Each of
>these family members has very
>real needs, wants and wishes
>for something different, from each
>other, and from my wife
>and I.
>
>There is the reality in our
>family, and I believe it
>is very similar in the
>sport hunting and fishing community.
> On any given day
>my wife and I have
>to make choices that have
>very real consequences on each
>member of our large and
>diverse family. How often
>you think my wife and
>I even agree on what
>we should do, let alone
>every member of this caldron
>of people that constitutes the
>Christensen family? We have
>limited money, we have limited
>time, we have our own
>bias and values, as well
>as our own needs, wants,
>and wishes. Not every
>thing my wife or I
>do is for the other
>members of the family.
>There are occasions when we
>do what we want.
>After all, we both worked
>for 45/50 years to get
>where we are today and
>we feel a desire to
>share with our extended family
>but sometimes we just like
>a bowl of ice cream
>for ourselves.
>
>HOWEVER.............on any give day, for any
>given reason, my wife and/or
>eye will have to choice
>to do something or choice
>not to do something that
>just pisses somebody in the
>family off, to the degree
>that we get a blast
>of resentment, tears, anger, hostility
>that is very hurtful to
>my wife and I.
>On some occasions these emotions
>and frustrations have lasted for
>months, even years, and while
>they almost always settle down
>eventually and the offended individual
>or individuals work through the
>issue and reunite with the
>warmth of family (or what
>every you call it) those
>memories still linger in the
>back of their minds and
>on occasion flash again, as
>other decisions bring about new
>frustrations.
>
>My family love and care for
>each other. They come
>together to and play and
>help each other with problems.
> They call each other
>numerous times a day.
>They are far from perfect,
>neither are my wife and
>I but, we try to
>hold it together, and yet
>as I set here today,
>I know, with absolute certainty,
>so time soon, over some
>different need, want or wish
>that some member of my
>large extended family has, I
>will do or say something
>that will royally pisses some
>one of them off and
>I'll get a blast of
>anger and dislike, very much
>like some sportsmen give SFW,
>or I might add, any
>other organization that is made
>up of a broad diversity
>of individuals with unique needs,
>wants and wishes.
>
>And.......no Mom and I aren't going
>to go over our check
>book, or income or our
>expenditure so you can compare
>to see which family member
>got more or less of
>our limited resources. We
>earned it and we'll decide
>how we're going to spend
>it. Sorry but that
>is just how it's going
>to be.
>
>To those anger or frustrated sportsmen
>I offer this, the same
>as I offer my children,
>their spouses and my grandchildren.
> Mom and I can
>not make every one happy
>all at the time, it
>simple can't happen because of
>our size and diversity.
>We're doing our best and
>we understand your anger and
>frustration and why your pissed
>off. We need you
>in the family, we appreciate
>your contributions, your interests and
>your talents. Please try
>to see the big picture,
>it's difficult to do sometimes
>but we are stronger as
>a group, with our differences,
>than we are as individuals,
>fighting from with in.
>That's it for today, I've go
>a full day of fun
>in the outdoors planned, I
>hope you do as well.
>
>
>DC

DC what you wrote was pretty much how most families work. HOWEVER, what you missed is that BIG elephant in the closet, I doubt your irritating your kids by sucking up massive ammounts of food stamps, government housing, and WIC, then selling it to your neighbors at a profit and keeping over 80% for your personal agenda.

I will say it again, the dudes/chicks out chucking pheasants, or strangling turkeys(elkassasin) are doing good work, that they believe in. They deserve thanks. HOWEVER, there were some good communists, good Nazis, good(insert your favorite group here), but the leadership WASN'T. The leadership, and vision for this group is the issue. To the point that other conservation groups are siding against SFW/MDF. Not fly by night groups, but when RMEF can see the corruption that exists and points it out PUBLICALLY, even you have to admit there is a problem.
They SFW have been under scrutiny for at least 5 years, and STILL haven't addressed the two points. 1.Finances, with hard numbers. 2. Vision, we know about THE DONS vision.
I agree with others. I dont belong to sheep groups, not into sheep. Not part of pheasants forever, or whoever, because of my interests. But they aren't fleecing the state(and now trying get Wyoming, and Alaska) like SFW. Good luck to you and your family, and I hope everyone has sucessful seasons(whatever your idea of sucess is). I would hope sir that internal pressure would produce results, because external pressure continually is dismissed by THE DON et al.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-14 AT 03:12PM (MST)[p]wileyW, you too are a wise man.

There are different ways to haul shingles into the roof. In my world I'm willing to get them up there a lot of different ways, others believe shingles should be hauled up a specific way. (This logic from a real life experience I had 45 years ago.) Mostly though, we all agree, if we're going to nail'em on, they need to get hauled up there.

Generally:

We all want more deer (big game, upland game, fish etc.), so we can kill more.
We all want to hunt as much as the resource will support.
We all want to leave it as good or better than the generation before us.
We all want to do it as cheaply as we can.
We all want a rewarding experience when we hunt.
We all want to believe we're good guys, with reasonable minds.
We all believe what is best for wildlife, specifically big game and sport fishing are good for the environment and the North American outdoor way of life.
We all have some stuff that stinks.
And finally, we all fish (figuratively if not literally) so we're all liars, one time or another.

I know you're a conservationist, first and foremost. I know you respond like you do out of concern for the all sportsmen's long term lifestyle. I know you fight for what you believe is right. You and I see SFW and all that goes with it differently. Where you see a threat, I see a group hauling shingles onto the roof in a different way than some would do it. I just want the dang shingles up there and in as much as there is some stink in everybody's barn, not just SFW's, I going to wade up to my knees in SFW's stink and add my straw and saw dust to the compose, along with others who are doing the same. Turn it into something we all want rather than something we all want to get rid of, is what I believe you mean.

WW, let me offer some encouragement, in the next year or two I believe you and I can get some shingles on the roof, together. Not saying it will be easy, you and I will need to grunt a little, or a lot, but we'll do it and we'll all be better off for it. And I'm betting SFW will throw in with us as well.

Take a breath my friend, we got work to do and sometimes the air in here isn't all the sweet.

DC
 
Good posts 2Lumby!
Thanks for posting up some positives when the vocal few are always bashing.
Go SFW, do some more good!
Btw, the expo was a blast and the exhibitors were awesome! Thanks!
Zeke
 
DC,
Your family analogy was well written and good reading, but you missed the most important part of the comparison by not mentioning it. Namely, you don't take some of your families' assets,(sometimes against their will), and market them to other family members, then pocket any of the proceeds and then get upset if they question you. And then, to top it off, you don't use some of those family asset proceeds to influence a system in order to do more of the same.

I, too have a family very similar to yours, with 6 married children and (almost) 16 grandchildren from ages 19 to soon-to- be-born. And my wife and I have the same kinds of issues with them that you do, including the bail-out money issues. But I suspect there is one major difference with our family and yours. All but 1 of my 5 big game hunting children have given it up because of the costs, but mostly the hassle. Getting the tags that they want is an iffy proposition that seems to go on all year long and since hunting doesn't take the priority that it seems to in your family, they find other things they need to do with their time and money, especially because it takes so long to complete the process. And the 1 daughter (and her two young sons, ages 11 & 9) that's left is struggling financially with an ex who refuses to pay his share of medical bills. How long do you think I can keep her interested when she sees the loss of permits due to mandated higher buck to doe ratios, increasing point creep, increasing permit costs for questionable purposes, loss of statewide archery for her father, and the tags that are auctioned off for hundreds of thousands of dollars. You get excited about those tags, she does not! And, yes I have explained (even defended) why those tags are necessary, but that doesn't compute with a person who doesn't have hunting as high on the priority list as you and I.

Basically, you and your family run in different circles than we do when it comes to hunting and your viewpoint and motives are geared to your circles, not mine. You fit in my world because I can see the need for some Conservation tags and trophy units, but I don't fit in yours because you don't see the need for shooting 2 point bucks and raghorn bulls. You think everybody wants, or should want more Spyders and Popeyes. And if we don't care about trophies and just want the opportunity to hunt, we're the ones that are selfish or, as I was recently called by a RAC member, a devil's advocate.

FWIW, I noticed in your other post that you first opposed SFW, but once you joined and thought about it, you embraced them. Then you encourage us to join as well. No thanks! I'll work hard with SFW on projects and proposals the will help me keep my daughter and grandsons in the game, but I'll adamantly oppose anything that will drive them further away.

See you at the meeting on the 25th!
 
To give credit where credit is do. I do wish
To acknowledge Troy Justeson for his involvement
Of late for critters with wings.

Bring the help Troy leave the exclusionary BS.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Start throwing Aluminum Now ww!

It's gonna take me 365 days of Gathering to make another Donation like I did this year!:D










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Elk, I share some of your story as I also have kids that do not hunt because of the cost as well as lack of game. I have a grandson that has killed his share of deer but nothing bigger than a 2 point and so has lost interest. I know that people in SFW want bigger deer but I have never heard any bad words from the upper people toward those that shoot 2 points or even spikes. Heck, I have shot my share of them. If you look through the magazine that SFW puts out you will see lots of small bucks, 2 points and etc. No one cares. The idea is to get more deer and you can not get them unless you cut down some of the hunters and manage for more deer. That is what is going on right now. No one wants to improve the deer herd more than I do. Personally I would like to see whitetail deer in Utah in greater numbers. Many people do not. I have killed one bull elk is all in my life. a 300 class bull two years ago. I am happy with it. This past year there were 357 thousand people that applied for permits in Utah. There is no where near that many permits available. What can be done. We need more animals for the hunt. If you or UWC have a better way to get them, please speak up. We need the deer to increase for more hunters. The elk are different. There is laws that say how many elk we can have on a mountain. No matter how hard SFW pushes to increase those numbers so far they have not.
In my opinion I am working with a group of people who are concerned about having more wildlife to hunt. With the transplants both with big game and pheasants and also fish. All I have seen is they want numbers so more people can hunt.
 
I have always said that SFW and MDF do some good things. In fact, I am a former member of both groups. However, I came to realize that I disagreed with the groups on several key issues. One obvious issue was the lack of accounting and transparency of the monies generated from the convention permits. Both groups strongly resisted providing any accountability and only agreed to minor concessions after taking a great deal of heat from sportsmen. Another key issue was stream access. SFW publicly claimed to be taking a neutral position on the issue but then Don Peay was quoted in the press as follows: "This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." That is not staying neautral, and the resulting law that was passed limited the rights of fisherman and other sportsmen across the state. If SFW is not going to support sportsmen on the stream access issue this time around, then hopefully it will at least follow through on its comittment to remain neutral.

In short, both SFW and MDF do some good things that benefit sportsmen in the State of Utah. I also note that there are many good people involved in both groups. Even while I was pushing SFW and MDF for increased accountability, I had the pleasure of meeting many SFW and MDF members who were good, committed people. On several occasions SFW members told me that they agreed with what I was requesting and that they were trying to increase accountability from within the organization. It was clear to me that most of the SFW and MDF volunteers are good, honest people that are committed to wildlife. Issues like these are never black and white.

That being aaid, I look forward to renewing the discussion when the Expo contract comes back up for renewal. However, I don't have any real confidence that the state or the groups will do the right thing. SFW, MDF, the DWR and the State are already positioning themselves for that discussion. See http://le.utah.gov/~2014/bills/static/SCR004.html Nothing like patting yourself on the back and then pointing to that self-recognition to justify what you are already doing.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
The ole pigeon plucker has pretty much explained the way I feel about SFW and what the SFW leadership want and so forth. Actually, I've come to believe exactly like the Birdman does, even though we arrived at SFW from a completely direct location, different interest, social association etc. I'd never meet Birdman, any of this friends, family, or know what his needs, want and wishes are, until we meet at last years Expo. Through SFW and common wildlife desires, we've become friends. Both Birdman and my best hunting years are well behind us, actual, a large number of people I've gotten to know with SFW are a lot like the Birdman and I, more worried about what the next generation has to hunt than what we'll every hunt again.

I started this thread so I'll stay with it a while, and share more of my observations about SFW etc, however in 30 minutes Richfield boy's basketball team is playing Park City tonight over at the college so I'm going to take a leave of absence for the rest of the day and l'll try to get back at it again tomorrow after noon.

I do appreciate the more productive candor this post has taken, I'll continue to participate if we can keep the douch-bag stuff out of it. Not that I can't dish it out too but it accomplishes nothing and I'd rather do it face to face if we're going to do it at all.

Go Richfield!

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-14 AT 00:24AM (MST)[p]>Elk, I share some of
>your story as I also
>have kids that do not
>hunt because of the cost
>as well as lack of
>game. I have a
>grandson that has killed his
>share of deer but nothing
>bigger than a 2 point
>and so has lost interest.
> I know that people
>in SFW want bigger deer
>but I have never heard
>any bad words from the
>upper people toward those that
>shoot 2 points or even
>spikes. Heck, I have
>shot my share of them.
> If you look through
>the magazine that SFW puts
>out you will see lots
>of small bucks, 2 points
>and etc. No one
>cares. The idea is
>to get more deer and
>you can not get them
>unless you cut down some
>of the hunters and manage
>for more deer. That
>is what is going on
>right now. No one
>wants to improve the deer
>herd more than I do.
> Personally I would like
>to see whitetail deer in
>Utah in greater numbers. Many
>people do not. I have
>killed one bull elk is
>all in my life.
>a 300 class bull two
>years ago. I am
>happy with it. This
>past year there were 357
>thousand people that applied for
>permits in Utah. There
>is no where near that
>many permits available. What can
>be done. We need
>more animals for the hunt.
> If you or UWC
>have a better way to
>get them, please speak up.
> We need the deer
>to increase for more hunters.
> The elk are different.
> There is laws that
>say how many elk we
>can have on a mountain.
> No matter how hard
>SFW pushes to increase those
>numbers so far they have
>not.
> In
>my opinion I am working
>with a group of people
>who are concerned about having
>more wildlife to hunt.
>With the transplants both with
>big game and pheasants and
>also fish. All I
>have seen is they want
>numbers so more people can
>hunt.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses and especially the civility. I've never called anyone on this forum (or UWN) a bad name and I expect the same courtesy and I've gotten it from you. Thanks.

Of course, that doesn't mean we'll always agree nor does that mean our discussion won't get rather frank at times. If I see what I think is a flaw in your argument, I'll say so. And in this case, the flaw I see is your admission that your son lost interest in hunting simply because he hasn't killed anything bigger than a 2 point. My question is, why would that matter? Wasn't/isn't the thrill of the hunt enough to carry him through or is it now all about the inches? If it's now all about the inches, how did that happen and who is responsible?

I hear and read all the time that hunters are somehow supposed to "graduate" in stages from novice willing to shoot spikes and 2-points to hard-core trophy hunters who will eat a tag if it's not big enough. Well, I guess I've missed that schooling because I'm 72+ and I've never eaten a deer tag if I had the chance to take ANY buck. I may hold out a while if I'm seeing a few and I'll certainly take a mature 4+ point if I see it in a herd, but HUNTING those 2-points have kept me archery hunting for over 50 years. And when it comes to elk, ANY elk is a thrill to take with a bow, at least to me. The same with pronghorn. And, for that matter, the same with does and cows. What's the difference? Expectations! My kids quit because of the costs and the hassle, not the size of the antlers. It's never been an issue for me and it wasn't an issue for them. The HUNT was the thing and when even that got to be too expensive and cumbersome they gave it up. I think the leadership of SFW have either forgotten that or never had it in the first place per the increased buck to doe ratios, the unnecessary loss of 2500 deer tags and statewide archery deer hunting, and the 30 unit management of buck deer hunters, plus the ongoing pushes to shorten the archery seasons and for antler point restrictions (3 points + only) and unit closures.

You and others keep blaming the loss of the deer herds on the hunters who shoot bucks, even when science has shown over and over again that killing surplus bucks has very little if any effect on the populations. We're not killing "the deer" as you like to put it, we're only killing the surplus "buck deer" and there's a vast difference. The deer herds are (or were) declining for reasons other than the hunters. It's certainly wise to cut tags as a herd declines, but hunters aren't the reason for the decline and simply removing them isn't the cure. In fact, it may be counterproductive because the bucks out-compete the does and fawns for forage, especially on the winter ranges.

I'm not home this weekend and don't have access to my compiled looseleafs, so I can't give you exact figures at this time, but I know that SFW has put a lot of Conservation and EXPO tag money on the ground for wildlife projects in the last 20 years and that is welcome and appreciated. I also know that we more casual hunters and fishermen, who far outnumber SFW's membership, have put in 10 to 20 times that amount, maybe more. The difference is that SFW gets to return that money in large lump sums several times a year with media coverage, while my measly $100 fees only show up in some backroom computer in Fallon, Nevada a couple of times per year. But my measly $100 is coupled with 75,000 to 150,000 other $100 fees and somewhere along the line, those who make the rules will figure that out and will act accordingly. I hope to move that process along before I lose the last big game hunter in my family, so I'll see you at the RAC and Wildlife Board meetings, and maybe even at the Capitol.

Again, it's late and I gotta get some sleep. We'll take this up later.
 
Why is the SFW neutral in the War against/for fishmen and access to the streams.

Why are they sitting on the fence I thought the "S" stood for them too.
Maybe all the SFW members that fish should kick their membership card to the curb.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Gator-

Actually, I think the "F" in SFW stands for those who fish. I am not sure why SFW is publicly trying to stay neutral on the stream access issue. Perhaps someone from within the organization can explain their position. I doubt they will admit it, but I am guessing that they don't want to alienate large wealthy landowners. Or perhaps the don't feel right about supporting sneaky, greedy flyfishermen.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-14 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]Hawkeye,
I think as stated above you can not always please everyone. You should ask SFW directly. You've gotten answers in the past? I see both sides of the issue. My boys are fishing machines, but access through or to private land has never been the norm in this country. Should it be? There is water and land all over the country that is landlocked by private. Where do other organizations stand on access across the country? I know for a fact at the Richfield banquet the DWR had a speaker talk to efforts of themselves combined with SFW on creating more Walk in Access areas. That to me seems trying to work and find solutions that benefit all sportsman along with creating positive relationships with landowners.
 
Cody access to navigable water has ALWAYS
Been the norm in this country, and was guaranteed
In the Utah State Constitution until somebody
Offended one of Gov. Herbert's family on the Provo.

There has been a ton of court rulings on the matter.

I think the Conaster ruling was the most recent precedent.


For Don Peay to go on the news and fire fishermen
Under the bus the way he did was low budget.








"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-14 AT 11:04AM (MST)[p]Cody-

Good suggestion. I will reach out to SFW directly on this issue, and I suggest that you do the same. I am not a current member if SFW, and so they may be more willing to respond to you inquiry. I have heard from several longstanding members of SFW that SFW is not taking a position and will remain neutral on the issue. But I guess it would not hurt to ask why they are not taking a position.

I know that you and your boys enjoy fishing. As a result, you should be strong supporters of stream access and HB 37. And just to be clear, public access to public waters was the "norm" in Utah prior to the passage of HB 141 in 2010. That is the bill that I was referring to above that limited the right of recreational water users (including anglers, kayakers, tubers, hunters and others) to walk on the private bed of a public waterbody. That is also the bill that Don was referring to when he referenced the "greedy flyfisherman."

HB 37 attempts to reach of compromise between the rights of the public and the rights of private landowners. It is based on a standard for public access to streams and rivers that Idaho has been successfully using for decades. The threshold is whether a stream is large enough to float a log six feet in length and six inches in diameter. Smaller streams remain off limits for public access. HB 37 makes a lot of sense and I don't know why any conservation group would not support it. But, perhaps there is some good, logical reason that we are overlooking?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Wiley Eye,
I'll be the first to admit when Don made that comment I was immediately on the phone, pissed off and discussing with my Dad and brothers. I was not happy nor did I agree. This is the difference, it wasn't a deal breaker for me. When I look at the overall picture I still support SFW. They STILL do more than any other group. It's just a fact. You don't win every battle in a war but it doesn't change the desire to keep fighting.

I'd still be interested to see what the stance is of other organizations regarding public access? I never see anything published on here pro or con. Is it ok for those groups to me neutral? Do those groups have no power or a voice? Is it all on the SFW one way or another?
 
I don't want to speak for any other groups
But the Bugle I got yesterday had an article
Championing sportsmans and public access.

Either way neutral or not, you don't go public
If you oppose your constituents.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
In response to the OP's post question: "Expo-Bad for Sportsmen?", my answer is no, I don't believe it is. The expo, in and of itself is good old American enterprise at work. I also don't care who runs it. What I do care about is the convention tags. I understand the reasons they were initially included; not that I agree with that premis, but I understand it. As of now, the Expo is being touted as a whopping success, drawing in more vendors and attendees, good for them. If that's the case, then I see no reason for the tags to continue to be a part of it, let the Expo stand on it's own legs now. Reutrn the tags to the draw pool.

www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
hawkeye, I do a lot of fishing things in this state. I am on several boards working with other fishing groups and people to work on things and peoples wants. One thing I can tell you is that as of the past few years, SFW will not take a stand on an issue until it has been discussed with the committee heads around the state. Those heads should be talking to the committees they head. If you get in a meeting where there is contention among members about an issue, instead of having the contention or disagreement continue, they stay neutral.
I look at it different ways. There is a walk in access that works every will when the division employees that work with walk in work for it. Some are lazier than others. If I owned a river front that ran next to my house, I would not want people in my back yard. How many fishermen out there say you can stay in the river and never need to get out because of a deep hole or trees across the water. With the walk in access the land owner can control what goes on with the property. I have had them tell me that I can fish but please stay away from the house.
Elkfromabove. Glad you answered. My grandson for some reason wants to shoot something bigger than a two point. His liking. I have shot about 10 or 12 very good deer in my life. Some from Wyoming and some from Utah. Not because I was trying to find a big one, but because they were there when I was hunting. Mostly years ago. I do not hesitate to shoot a smaller buck, I have shot my share of two points and spikes. I love to eat deer. I know that the division says lower buck to doe ratios still get the does bred. Some disagree. You have been to the Wildlife board where the war goes on. Hard to keep people happy. You mentioned SFW wanted antler restrictions. I know that some sfw members want it but the organization has not pushed that as an organization. The goal of SFW is to increase the deer herd. That is why they are defending and pushing for transplanting deer that are urban deer and moving the deer off of areas where too many exist moving them to areas that could use more deer. That is why they moved the deer off of antelope island to new areas. That is why they are helping in moving the sheep and goats around the state to help im making more areas where we can hunt trying to increase numbers. Last year 357 thousand people put in for hunting in Utah. No way are there that many permits available. I would think if they opened up more deer hunting it would hurt the deer herd. I guess we will not agree on that issue. Antelope that were in the fields west of Utah lake are now being relocated into areas where they can be hunting. Lots going on.
 
Whereas this thread has moved beyond why I support the funding raising tools of the Expo and SFW I've started a new post titled "SFW - Good for Sportsmen?

I've put a different analysis as to why I support SFW, it's ideology, it's methods, and it's leadership.

Thanks
DC
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-14
>AT 10:35?AM (MST)

>
>Hawkeye,
>I think as stated above you
>can not always please everyone.
> You should ask SFW
>directly. You've gotten answers
>in the past? I see
>both sides of the issue.
> My boys are fishing
>machines, but access through or
>to private land has never
>been the norm in this
>country. Should it be? There
>is water and land all
>over the country that is
>landlocked by private. Where
>do other organizations stand on
>access across the country?
>I know for a fact
>at the Richfield banquet the
>DWR had a speaker talk
>to efforts of themselves combined
>with SFW on creating more
>Walk in Access areas.
> That to me seems
>trying to work and find
>solutions that benefit all sportsman
>along with creating positive relationships
>with landowners.


It's been the "norm" in Utah for the last 100 years, Where have you been?

We're not talking about lakes and ponds that are landlocked by private land, of coarse those are off limits unless you get permission. We're talking about rivers and streams that flow through private land. Just like Idaho and Montana you use to be able to access rivers and streams as long as you stayed below the high water mark until that POS Herbert got into office.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-14 AT 04:44AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-14 AT 04:41?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-14 AT 04:39?AM (MST)

> Couldn't a well run
>F&G do everything that SFW
>has done for a lot
>less money?

This may sound strange from an active UWC member who supposedly hates SFW (I don't), but frankly, I doubt it. The hired man-power needed to replace SFW volunteers would bankrupt them. While I don't always agree with SFW's objectives and policies and am willing to challenge those objectives and policies, I envy their ability to put hands and shovels to work. I've been on numerous projects where SFW members outnumber any other group, including Dedicated Hunters. In Utah, at least, the number of SFW members outnumber the number of DWR employees (about 2,000 I've been told). I'd guess that other groups' memberships also outnumber DWR employees and maybe those other volunteers could replace the SFW volunteers, but it would require a significant attitude adjustment on the part of those other members.

Additionally, from what I've seen, DWR employees are already stretched pretty thin now in order to cover all of the Legislature and Wildlife Board mandated jobs as it is and asking them to pick up even more would likely create a high turn over from burnout.

As an example; the first project I got involved with was a lop and scatter project at Sage Hen Hollow. This was a Dedicated Hunter project initiated by the BLM and DWR which UWC got involved in. And since Sage Hen Hollow is in the Southern Region (near Panguitch) and since I was the newly designated UWC Southern Region Chair (or Advisor per my card), I was asked to coordinate the project. As it turned out, my job ended up being the "manager" of the whole thing. I had no idea in the beginning even what lop and scatter meant, let alone how to manage it. Basically, I drove up to the site a few days before following a DWR truck and was instructed on the procedure and shown the area we were work. I was then told to pick up the loppers at the district office and to take them up to the site the morning of the project (Saturday) and to wait for and instruct the volunteers. I thought, how hard could this be as long as the DWR employees were there to correct any mistakes I might make. We left the site and the last thing I heard from the DWR men was "We'll see you Saturday morning". Well, Saturday morning came and I was at the appointed meeting place (intersection) at the appointed time prior to the project and was happy to see the DWR truck drive up. But much to my surprise, they leaned out the open window and said "Thanks! Don't forget to collect all the loppers and return them to the office. We have to go to Richfield for another project". Well, we did just fine! 200 acres of lopping/cutting pinyon and juniper saplings in order to keep the sagebrush healthy. But we did it without ANY DWR (or BLM) employees! They had other things to do on that gorgeous Saturday morning. Yes, they're spread pretty thin and need the volunteers to get the work done.

On this particular project there were no SFW members to my knowledge, but on the Parowan Front transplants in the middle of the week we were overrun with them, thankfully. And BTW, SFW's Rusty Aiken makes a mean breakfast burrito!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-14
>AT 04:44?AM (MST)

>
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-14
>AT 04:41?AM (MST)

>
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-14
>AT 04:39?AM (MST)

>
>> Couldn't a well run
>>F&G do everything that SFW
>>has done for a lot
>>less money?
>
>This may sound strange from an
>active UWC member who supposedly
>hates SFW (I don't), but
>frankly, I doubt it. The
>hired man-power needed to replace
>SFW volunteers would bankrupt them.
>While I don't always agree
>with SFW's objectives and policies
>and am willing to challenge
>those objectives and policies, I
>envy their ability to put
>hands and shovels to work.
>I've been on numerous projects
>where SFW members outnumber any
>other group, including Dedicated Hunters.
>In Utah, at least, the
>number of SFW members outnumber
>the number of DWR employees
>(about 2,000 I've been told).
>I'd guess that other groups'
>memberships also outnumber DWR employees
>and maybe those other volunteers
>could replace the SFW volunteers,
>but it would require a
>significant attitude adjustment on the
>part of those other members.
>
>
>Additionally, from what I've seen, DWR
>employees are already stretched pretty
>thin now in order to
>cover all of the Legislature
>and Wildlife Board mandated jobs
>as it is and asking
>them to pick up even
>more would likely create a
>high turn over from burnout.
>
>
>As an example; the first project
>I got involved with was
>a lop and scatter project
>at Sage Hen Hollow. This
>was a Dedicated Hunter project
>initiated by the BLM and
>DWR which UWC got involved
>in. And since Sage Hen
>Hollow is in the Southern
>Region (near Panguitch) and since
>I was the newly designated
>UWC Southern Region Chair (or
>Advisor per my card), I
>was asked to coordinate the
>project. As it turned out,
>my job ended up being
>the "manager" of the whole
>thing. I had no idea
>in the beginning even what
>lop and scatter meant, let
>alone how to manage it.
>Basically, I drove up to
>the site a few days
>before following a DWR truck
>and was instructed on the
>procedure and shown the area
>we were work. I was
>then told to pick up
>the loppers at the district
>office and to take them
>up to the site the
>morning of the project (Saturday)
>and to wait for and
>instruct the volunteers. I thought,
>how hard could this be
>as long as the DWR
>employees were there to correct
>any mistakes I might make.
>We left the site and
>the last thing I heard
>from the DWR men was
>"We'll see you Saturday morning".
>Well, Saturday morning came and
>I was at the appointed
>meeting place (intersection) at the
>appointed time prior to the
>project and was happy to
>see the DWR truck drive
>up. But much to my
>surprise, they leaned out the
>open window and said "Thanks!
>Don't forget to collect all
>the loppers and return them
>to the office. We have
>to go to Richfield for
>another project". Well, we did
>just fine! 200 acres of
>lopping/cutting pinyon and juniper saplings
>in order to keep the
>sagebrush healthy. But we did
>it without ANY DWR (or
>BLM) employees! They had other
>things to do on that
>gorgeous Saturday morning. Yes, they're
>spread pretty thin and need
>the volunteers to get the
>work done.
>
>On this particular project there were
>no SFW members to my
>knowledge, but on the Parowan
>Front transplants in the middle
>of the week we were
>overrun with them, thankfully. And
>BTW, SFW's Rusty Aiken makes
>a mean breakfast burrito!

The truth would be if we would ever see SFW open the books so everyone could see how much is raised from tag selling and how much makes it to the ground in projects. That seems to be asking too much.
 
$40,000.00?!?!?! Bull$$it.

That goes right along with the inflated number of over a million mule deer in Utah back in the mid 60s or 70s. This is the kind of chest beating garbage that just reinforces the bad taste in my mouth for sfw. Carry on wayward souls.


"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 

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