Hate and Jealousy, Get over it. It's not healthy.

smitty

smitty

Very Active Member
Messages
1,434
After having read numerous posts made here on MM, specifically about SFW/MossBack/Denny Austad/Antelope Island, I have come to this conclusion.

Most people are jealous of others that have more money than them, and are able to pay for hunts. And instead of thinking about what really matters they let rage and hate build up till they spew out some incredible rant about how so and so is evil and they should take their money and go home.

While I have observed and tried to see both sides of these topics, I feel that we are fighting each other over something that we all love. And seeings how I'm a little bored, I decided to post this and hope that some people can relax and get over something that is meaningless.

Here are some of the thoughts I've decided are important to me.

Money doesn't make you a good hunter. But it can sure buy you a huge trophy.

Hunting is not a competetive sport.

Is a 250" mule deer worth $300k to me? Nope.

Is a 250" mule deer worth $7k to me? Nope.

If Randy Ulmer/Denny Austad/Cameron Hanes/Michael Waddell kill a bigger buck than me, does that make them a better hunter than me? Nope.

Do I measure my "greatness" as a hunter in the number of book animals I've killed? Nope.

Do I believe SFW/RMEF/MDF/SCI/NAHC are good or evil. Nope. Do they all do good? Yep. Do they all manage their/our money ethically? Nope. No special interest group does.

Here's what I do believe. I believe that our hunting heritage has become a joke. To see so many grown men act like they are entitled to the biggest animal on the mountain, and should be able to kill said animal at all costs, is going to be the ultimate down fall of the sport of hunting.

No wonder I prefer to hunt alone, in areas that I've scouted myself.

I more than likely will never be rich like some of the hunters out there, and there are many more than Denny Austad. But in the event that I did, I wonder what my hunting life would be like? I probably wouldn't buy high profile tags and go on high profile hunts, but I sure as hell wouldn't apologize to anyone for having the ability to do so.

Anyhow, carry on with all the hating and jealousy. It can be entertainng at times.
 
S0 here is your quote:

Here's what I do believe. I believe that our hunting heritage has become a joke. To see so many grown men act like they are entitled to the biggest animal on the mountain, and should be able to kill said animal at all costs, is going to be the ultimate down fall of the sport of hunting.


Those that are outspoken about Denny/Moss/SFW are all in the exact same boat. Has nothing to do with jealousy at all. Denny, Brownleee, and the likes are the entire problem with the current direction of hunting. Why should the richest person be entitled to the very best tags every year? Does he deserve any animal more than the guy who makes $12 stocking shelves at night in Walmart.

The very group you mention and the likes are the entitled group. They believe that if there is enough money then the rules do not apply. Everything from illegal ATV use, intentional trespassing etc. They are wrong for doing everything they can to make a profit. When hunting becomes only about monetary or ego gain it is simply wrong. This includes privatization of wildlife as well (SFW).

Has nothing to jealousy or greed. All i want is the same opportunity. Your group is all only in it for themselves.

Call it how you want, but there is something wrong with those who you are defending...
 
In a democracy, you always have to be proactive become those who become wealthy always seem to think they are entitled / above the law/ can afford the lawyers/ know the right people/ have access.... etc.

All you have to do is look at Utah politics. Believe me... those people on the hill are not concerned with the common man. They are feathering their own nests. I find it so strange in Utah that the worker/ hunter keeps putting the entitled in office thinking they are protecting their way of life... NOT !!
 
I don't hate those rich guys, nor am I jealous. My ego is on par with my bank account, and I'm good with that. I could do what they do with the money they have. I wonder if they could hunt and be successful in my world. mtmuley
 
Nothing in this world is fair. It was never meant to be. Other than we all get a crack at making the most of what we have.

What I see here on MM is no different than the debacle we have going on in the rest of the country. We have guys hating others simply because they have money, they have better tags, they have bigger animals, they have this, they have that.........Believe it or not, it's class warfare amongst a group of people that need to stick together.

Wether or not these special interest groups, and I mean ALL of them, not just SFW which gets demonized like they are the anti-christ, are all on the up and up, really isn't the issue. Name one group that doesn't profit from donated money. I think they are all crooked to a point, but yet we ALL still seem to support them, for our own selfish reasons. Wether you are hoping to win something in a drawing, look cool to your friends or whatever, it boils down to we as hunters/humans are selfish, and are looking out for what's best for us.

But back to my original point, and hopefully I'll be able to articulate it at some time, but the accomplishments of others don't mean diddly squat to me. I used to get jealous, just like alot of other guys, but I realized what a useless emotion it is. I'm not going to spend my life worrying about someone else killing a bigger animal than me, simply because it does no good.

I will do my best with what I can, and enjoy every minute of it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-13 AT 07:33PM (MST)[p]>In a democracy, you always have
>to be proactive become those
>who become wealthy always seem
>to think they are entitled
>/ above the law/ can
>afford the lawyers/ know the
>right people/ have access.... etc.
>
>
>All you have to do is
>look at Utah politics.
>Believe me... those people on
>the hill are not concerned
>with the common man.
>They are feathering their own
>nests. I find it
>so strange in Utah that
>the worker/ hunter keeps putting
>the entitled in office thinking
>they are protecting their way
>of life... NOT !!

+1
Grizz...I scratch my head at the very same propensity to put back into office those who do not reflect the majority. Its a problem, I believe, with the leadership of certain groups. Plenty of good people that have, for whatever reason, been duped into believing in someone that is only looking out for themselves. As far as being jealous, I'll take my little group of none assuming hunters that make up our camp and stick with them.

I will add this. That anytime you go to a charity auction or raffle, the intent of that is to raise money. Its ridiculous to think you can go to any fundraiser and find a deal. If you do, its for something that nobody wants. Those things that everyone wants, only those with the most money will get. I like mtmuley's response in that I highly doubt that the majority of the Austads out there and clientele of Mossback Outfitters could live in the regular world most of us do.


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Does the phrase, "Pass the popcorn", ring a bell?

It has ALWAYS been about the money and it will ALWAYS be about the money!

You can live with that fact and hunt your own way, the best you can, or you can snivel and whine about something you have no hope of ever changing. Criticizing others for the monetary success they have, just makes you look small-minded and foolish.

"I could agree with you, but then we would both be
wrong......and stupid"
 
In the old days you could either shoot your buffalo from your jackazz drawn wagon or if you had the money you could shoot from the train like Teddy. Nothing has changed except that there is more hunters and fewer animals to go around.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-13 AT 08:19PM (MST)[p]I guess I just don't understand some of those comments. They are nothing but assumption. Mossback guides hunters that cover the entire spectrum of hunters just like most outfitters. Some are very experienced and good hunters so not at much. In fact Mossback even guides hunters that draw in the general draw. I know that's hard to believe but it's true...average joes that choose to hire guide. Guys that usually DIY most the time.

Funny that you only bring up Mossback. There are many other outfitters that guide in UT and AZ and NM. They all guide conservation type tags, governor tag types. DIY guys that draw that special tag.

I've also seen some good deals this year at the auctions, yes some tags go high but there are some tags that are pretty reasonable. Go check an out of state hunt in a quality area, (land owner tag, LE) and then compare. There are some really good deals in fact!

6 posts in and I think smittys point was quickly proven.
 
I have a good friend who kills huge blacktail bucks almost every year on public land with the same OTC tag that thousands of us have.

I'm way more jealous of him than I am of the guy who pays huge money. The guy who pays huge money is expected to kill a big buck. No special feat and no surprise there.

I cringe every time a tag is auctioned off because I'm afraid it's going to catch on that more and more tags go to the highest bidder. I don't think the people's deer should be auctioned off. They should be priceless.

Eel
 
Isn't that the trend hunting is on Eel? How long have guys been charging clients to take them hunting? Guiding is along the same line isn't it? Some guys charge $5000 for a mule deer, some charge $20k for a brown bear, others charge $4000 for a black bear hunt. And we as hunters gladly pay these prices. I realize that in some instances it's a law that we are abiding to go with a guide.

And how many outfitters have thousands of acres of private land to take their paying clients on? We all ##### about hi-fence, hi-dollar guided hunts, some guys even belittle others for going on a guided hunt. Where does it end? Where do we draw the line? What is an acceptable amount to spend for a hunt before someone is ridiculed?

I don't know what the right answer is, and I'm still trying to condense my thoughts into something I can articulate succinctly. But I just wonder what the world of hunting is coming to, or if this is a localized problem because the bulk of the MM guys are from Utah, and SFW/Mossback/Denny Austad etc......all come from or have strong ties to the state? And no, SFW/Mossback/Denny Austad aren't the only people or groups that get routinely attacked. They just seem to be the most popular.

Carry on. BTW i've got another thread going about lawn mowers, still waiting for some real advice on which mower to get. Some sweet pics have been sent in, but they're not that helpful. Unless your viagra prescription has expired.
 
I am not jealous. Lease all the private land you want. Hire dozens of folks to guide you. I may or may not do that at times.

Public tags are not private tags. Public. Once we cross a line where state legilatures treat big game tags like front row concert tickets handed at face value to scalper's like SFW to resell at huge profits then I get mad. Not jealousy. Astonishment that private parties are co-opting public tags and any hunter supports this tag grab.

Draw a tag in the public draw competing with every other applicant and then go hire guides etc. No hate here. No jealousy.

These are our tags. Hell yes we are mad. Why aren't you? Don't you deserve an equal chance at a public tag?
 
With me it's neither the hunt nor the money that's a concern. It's the influence the money brings to be able to manipulate the rules and regulations that diminish the opportunities others (myself included) have to hunt (and fish). Those who have been mentioned are welcome to their lifestyles and hunts as far as I'm concerned, but it's when they play the politics with RAC's, Wildlife Boards, Legislators Governers and the public with proposals, rules, regulations, and laws that enhance their chosen lifestyles and hunts to the diminishment of the lifestyles and hunts of others, is when I object.

I support the express lanes you have on the freeways up north even though I would probably never participate in the program myself. But I would object to them making some of the regular lanes into more express lanes just for the further convenience (speed) of the express lane drivers and I would fight any attempts to do so. Call it jealosy or hate if you want to, but it's not the person I have issues with, but the ideas they're promoting.
 
Outdoors,
Equal chance???? Please explain how an open auction is not an equal chance. Pretty sure your money is just as green as anyone's. If you chose to spend it on something else that's your progitive. But any tag being sold is available to anyone. That's just a fact. It's just a matter of priority and what you chose to spend your money on.
 
"I am not jealous. Lease all the private land you want. Hire dozens of folks to guide you. I may or may not do that at times.

Public tags are not private tags. Public. Once we cross a line where state legilatures treat big game tags like front row concert tickets handed at face value to scalper's like SFW to resell at huge profits then I get mad. Not jealousy. Astonishment that private parties are co-opting public tags and any hunter supports this tag grab.

Draw a tag in the public draw competing with every other applicant and then go hire guides etc. No hate here. No jealousy.

These are our tags. Hell yes we are mad. Why aren't you? Don't you deserve an equal chance at a public tag?"


Ok you're not jealous. You just are selfish and can't handle competing to get your tags. If you want everything to remain a draw. So be it. But when you draw that tag its time for you to pay what its worth. No more of this welfare junk where you draw an LE tag and only give back to the state a couple hundred bucks. How about you draw that tag and pay the state $20K??? Its time for you guys to pay what your hobby is worth. You want deer to be important and preserve your sport for future generations. Then make sure your deer DNR is compensated appropriately when you start harvesting. No more having your cake and eating it too.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 08:40AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 08:39?AM (MST)

So what you're saying Muley_73, is that those who go to auctions aren't there just to buy something where the money might go to conservation? The market will dictate the price and $11,000.00+ for an elk muzzy tag isn't a deal. And I sure enjoy watching local folks bid against folks on their cell phones during those auctions.

Brought up Mossback only because of their association with AI/Austad and have watched many of their videos with Dr. So and So or Attorney Such and Such. I have learned only to dislike one family of "outfitters/guides" in this state who have a running history of convictions (wounding a cougar on a closed unit and then dragging it to an open unit for their "client" to finish off), citations, and pathetic ethics and that is definitely not Mossback. People only hire a guide if they are unable to do it themselves. No? Be it because they are from out of state, are unfamiliar with the area, or suck at actually hunting because they're new hunters or just plain have more money than ability.

I find it interesting that people get so worked up when opposing views are expressed. Those reacting defensively on the behalf of someone else.....you make some other very interesting points that many of us have been saying and trying to bring to light. Have a great day.

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 09:36AM (MST)[p]Klb,
Over the last couple years I have seen tags go for far far less than 11K. I've seen tags go for under 4K I've seen them go for under 2K in fact. That includes a muzzy elk tag ironically.

Success generally brings it's fair share of non fans. That can be said about hunting, guiding, outfitting, sports, business, politics. It's just human nature unfortunately.

As far as who hires a guide. That is kind of and interesting look at things. Is that really who you think only hires a guide? I would bet there is a pretty good chunk out there that hire a good because they draw a special tag and they don't have the experience of knowledge of that particular area. Maybe they don't have the equipment or animals to get deep in the back country. Maybe they don't want to invest because they can't get out and hunt like that every year and it's more feasible to hire someone who already has that stuff. That doesn't make them a inferior hunter. This thought process of I'm a DIY only hunter and that makes me superior is interesting. Lots of the same people clinging to that are the ones that keep bringing up good old Teddy R. I wonder who he would have hired had he been hunting now days.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 09:59AM (MST)[p]These statements about jealousy and selfishness probably pertain to a very small minority of the people that are outspoken against the SFW higher ups. Now I see another ridiculous post by Muley_73 trying to justify those auction tags, but I guess it doesn't really surprise me with what some of these believers come up with since they're merely following their Pied Piper Peay like lemmings! How can anyone believe, whether they are an SFW member or not, that an open auction gives everyone an equal chance at those tags and that a person's money is as green as anyone's in the context that it's spoken?! Here's a question for you Muley_73. How many tags have you and your blue collar workers been able to buy with the bids it takes to purchase any of those high dollar LE tags that anybody would love to have? Most average people would have to save for a lifetime to even be able to think about bidding on those top tags, while you have the nerve to say that everyone has an equal chance. You and some of your cohorts come up with some of the dumbest statements like that trying to justify your existence that it's not even funny and then you wonder why people with a little common sense call you out on them, LOL!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 09:45AM (MST)[p]most of you don't understand the reason many people get upset at the constant push to commercialize and even privatize publicly owned wildlife.
The influence of money is the reason you will find it harder to kill a trophy bull elk in Utah when you draw a tag, its the reason there are less tags available in the regular draws.
Its the reason younger hunters aren't being recruted in the sport as often, and it definitely hurts the quality of the hunting experience for the majority of hunters, whether they realize it or not.

I'm not jealous of all these rich people, I have wealthy friends just like most people do, but it does bother me that wealth tags and money is no object guided hunts are taking opportunity away from the common man.
 
First: I am jealous

Second: I am against landowners making money off of wildlife because it is turning hunting into a rich mans sport. I think if you own land you should get tags for you and perhaps immediate family members to hunt on YOUR land every year. No reason to get tags to sell or tags that are good in the entire unit, etc.

Third: If I was extremely wealthy, I would be continuously paying out the wazzoo to always be hunting!
 
Top,
I have bid on several tags. I've had friends and family also bid. There are tags that go for affordable prices when you look at hunting across the US or world for that matter. Tell me is 1800.00 for an elk tag on a unit that has produced 400 inch bulls not affordable? Not to mention that its a tax right off. It's just a matter of where you choose to spend your money.

As far as high end tags, I'd much rather trade a percentage of tags that generate that amount of money than have to make up the difference out of my pocket every year. You look at the dollars those tags bring in and try to make up for it with increased tag prices in general and you eliminate more blue collar hunters and their families than those tags ever do! BY A LOT!!!

No I do not agree with Tri that all tags should be auctioned but the truth is the ones that UT, WY, CO, AZ, WY, WA, MT makes hunting in general more affordable for the rest of us blue collar hunters. So I don't hate the program I appreciate it.

And yes all of those states auctioned tags at the Expo. It's not just UT. It's what makes sense to a lot of states. It's the best way to generate dollars for those states. Dollars that it takes to insure the future of our resources.

If the same exact hunters paid that kind of money and just hunted on their own and only shot small animals on general units would you all have a problem? I don't think we'd ever hear a negative word. It's that big animals do matter to you guys and it is jealousy. It claim otherwise may seem noble but it's not truthful.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 10:36AM (MST)[p]There are public colleges that will provide an education and after you obtain a degree hopefully get a better job. No guarantees. Then you have some people that qualify for a grant, some get cheap loans, some get a good job after a degree, some don't. This is not FAIR, because it's PUBLIC EDUCATION. Everyone should have an equal chance at a public education, everyone should have an equal chance at a good job. It's only fair. Some people have more money so they don't need to work while they go to school, they get done sooner. That is just not fair. It is OUR EDUCATION, it is PUBLIC. I just want everyone to have the same opportunity and everyone to just be fair. Get it?????

I know a guy who loves his partner, they are committed they should be able to get married. Adopt some kids, have a family. It's only fair.

I know a guy, he's ugly, can't get a wife. He loves his dog and his dog loves him. He thinks they should be able to get married. They love each other, its only fair.

I have a friend who died of cancer two years ago. He was only 48. He left a young family. That is not fair.

I know a guy that lost his hair at a young age. That is not fair.

I know a guy that could not draw a tag with max points, that is not fair.

Get it. Things are not always fair. Make the best of things with what you have and with what cards you have been delt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 10:36AM (MST)[p]No I don't get it, life is never fair.
Wealthy hunters will always have more time to hunt and better equipment, complete fairness is not the issue here.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 10:47AM (MST)[p]huntin50---FAIR would be if almost all of these high priced auction tags in all the states went back into the draw pools so that EVERYONE is competing for them on an equal basis, regardless of their income! That is what the NAM is all about so that wealth has no bearing on what tag a person can acquire. Get it??? Now I would guess that a certain Houston taxidermist will come on the thread with more of his baloney talking about class warfare, etc.
 
There are SEVEN states in front of Ut that I would rather hunt deer in. We have more weatlth tags than all the others states combined! Yep all those high dollar tags have sure improved the deer herd.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 11:26AM (MST)[p]Top,

It's not fair that it cost me 50 dollars for a WY elk point.

It's not fair that the Utah odds to draw a trophy elk tag are poor.

It's not fair that if there were only half of the conservation permits in Utah the odds really wouldn't change much.

It's not fair that I need to buy a 150 dollar license to apply for AZ,ID, and NV.

It's not fair that most states don't guarentee at least 10% of the tags to non residents. Most of the ground is public federal land.

It's not fair that my brother has 10 WY moose points and since the wolves moved in, instead of 20 non res permits for the unit, now there are only 2 permits.

It's not fair my WY sheep point went from 7 dollars to 100 dollars.

It's not fair.

I guess I can try to improve things, but realize life isn't fair.
 
>Outdoors,
>Equal chance???? Please explain how an
>open auction is not an
>equal chance. Pretty sure
>your money is just as
>green as anyone's. If
>you chose to spend it
>on something else that's your
>progitive. But any tag
>being sold is available to
>anyone. That's just a
>fact. It's just a
>matter of priority and what
>you chose to spend your
>money on.

Muley, tristate,

So we make some of the lanes of the freeway into Express Lanes and we turn over the auction of permits to drive those lanes to a private entity who returns 30% directly back to the Utah Dept of Transportation, keeps 60% for UDOT approved freeway improvements, and pockets 10%? All the while allowing that private entity to petition/lobby UDOT, the Utah Legislators, the Governor of Utah and even the federal government to regulate the number of Express Lanes, as well as the speed, the "quality" of the surface, the number and style of off and on ramps (regardless of what the engineers recommend), the number of permits issued based on the "quality" of the ride (which, of course includes the perceived number of drivers per lane)? Meanwhile, those of us who choose not to participate in the auction (based on our income and priorities) are regulated to the decreasing number of regular lanes which are increasingly overcrowded, slower and potholed, even though our taxes keep paying for the Express Lanes in part? And your answer is "tough", "get over it", "that's life"? (Tristate would have ALL of the lanes Express Lanes, if I'm not mistaken.) Oh, I know, we don't have the "entitlement" to have access to the freeways even though some form of government entity has a monopoly on all roadways. I guess I could just take all the back roads to drive the 260 miles to visit my 4 kids and 11 grandkids who live in Salt Lake Valley, couldn't I? Or even walk, for that matter. How selfish of me to challenge the system!
 
Muley73, Dont tell me that $1800 tag has produced a 400 inch bull. Because I know who bought that tag and I HAVE NEVER SEEN a 400 inch bull on that Unit. There have been a few big bulls, like 380 type bulls, but never 400 that I KNOW OF. I might be wrong. If it produced 1 400 inch bull, thats an extreme. But I also know that MY FRIEND that bought that tag was very surprised at the LACK of people at the auction/banquet. He was amazed it went for so cheap.

I had to agree with elkfromabove. WELL SAID!!!
 
Very well put. I agree elkfromabove. That is a great example, but however, no matter how clear of an example, there will be those that will always fight it just to fight it. Tri is a prime example.

GET OVER IT:) (sarcasm)
 
When ever a group which is in the minority (SFW) 5% of the hunting and fishing population in this state on a good day, take their agenda and shove it down the thoats of the wildlife board, governor and others who make the final call on wildlife policies in this state and have "their"agenda passed time and time again.Their view is not the view of the majority of sportsman in this state period.Then to top it off they can't even operate on their own money! Relying on state tax money, state welfare tags( convention permits) and conservation permits. Please if your using states resources to fund your operation you better be representing the majority and minority!
So don't tell me to "get over it" cause I've had enough of your groups crooked ways around here!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 11:37AM (MST)[p]The biggest problem I have with the auction tags, is that there is no transparency with were the money is going. Its hard to determine whats the true value of the tag. How much is actually going back to wildlife? If people could see that, than it would probably cut back on the amount of people who are upset with the loss of oppurtunity.
 
Yes there has been 400 inches bulls on that unit. I've seen several pics and actually held a bull that went 404 or 408 (can't remember for positive). Believe it was a Parkinson from Wellsville that shot it. Anyway regardless of who was there or not there that's what the tag sold for. I agree it was a small banquet but some tags still sold for a bunch, some went pretty cheap. My point was not all tags go for 11k or more.

And yes I spend time on that unit most years chasing bulls with friends that have drawn its not a premium unit but there are some good bills there. I hope your friend has a great hunt.
 
EFA,
I guess if you choose to believe that the money only goes back into the fancy express lane then I understand what you are saying. However that is not how I see the system working. So there is the difference, I see that money going back into habitat and projects the benefit all the "lanes of traffic" . That's where we differ.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 01:02PM (MST)[p]Cache,
The fact that you referred the conservation tags as welfare tags makes me chuckle. In all actuality the conservation tags are the furthest thing from welfare.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13
>AT 11:26?AM (MST)
>
>Top,
>
>It's not fair that it cost
>me 50 dollars for a
>WY elk point.
>
> It's not fair that the
>Utah odds to draw a
>trophy elk tag are poor.
>
>
>It's not fair that if there
>were only half of the
>conservation permits in Utah the
>odds really wouldn't change much.
>
>
>It's not fair that I need
>to buy a 150 dollar
>license to apply for AZ,ID,
>and NV.
>
>It's not fair that most states
>don't guarentee at least 10%
>of the tags to non
>residents. Most of the ground
>is public federal land.
>
>It's not fair that my brother
>has 10 WY moose points
>and since the wolves moved
>in, instead of 20 non
>res permits for the unit,
>now there are only 2
>permits.
>
>It's not fair my WY sheep
>point went from 7 dollars
>to 100 dollars.
>
>It's not fair.
>
>I guess I can try to
>improve things, but realize life
>isn't fair.


***Nobody said life was fair! The thing you need to realize is that what we are talking about can be addressed and changed so the tags are fair for everyone to have a chance at. I will also come right back at you and say that all the things you are listing as unfair may be true in your mind, but are fair because they apply to everyone and are are not just discriminating to a certain few.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 04:55PM (MST)[p]>Yes there has been 400 inches
>bulls on that unit.
>I've seen several pics and
>actually held a bull that
>went 404 or 408 (can't
>remember for positive). Believe it
>was a Parkinson from Wellsville
>that shot it. Anyway
>regardless of who was there
>or not there that's what
>the tag sold for.
>I agree it was a
>small banquet but some tags
>still sold for a bunch,
>some went pretty cheap.
> My point was not
>all tags go for 11k
>or more.
>
>And yes I spend time on
>that unit most years chasing
>bulls with friends that have
>drawn its not a premium
>unit but there are some
>good bills there. I
>hope your friend has a
>great hunt.


*We're not talking tags going for the money you mentioned and you dang well know it! We're talking aboout all those top end tags that are going in the five figures to many times into the six figures. Don't you dare tell me or anyone else that more than a few can bid and pay for that bid when it gets up to those numbers. That one tag this year started at a bid of $295,000. Was that you that made that opening bid? Trying to say those tags are doing any of the average Joe hunters any good and saving them money is a crock. If that money was spread out across all license buyers it would not raise the price of licenses much.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]>EFA,
>I guess if you choose to
>believe that the money only
>goes back into the fancy
>express lane then I understand
>what you are saying.
>However that is not how
>I see the system working.
> So there is the
>difference, I see that
>money going back into habitat
>and projects the benefit
>all the "lanes of traffic"
>. That's where we
>differ.


***Muley_73---And where do you see that $600,000 of taxpayers money that SFW/BGF finagled from the Legislature going when there isn't even a registered lobbyist in DC and the first $300,000 hasn't even been accounted for? This latest legalized theft, and yes, that's exactly what it is, will end up bringing down your groups method of doing business in Utah and the sooner the better! When the groups start taking money from the GF of Utah with nothing to show for it many would see that as outright corruption. The Utah media may well just do what everyone else can't on the tag situation when it involves that kind of a boondoggle two years in a row!!! Some big heads may roll before this is all over and because of their obnoxious greed it will serve them right!
 
73,

We could easily agree on one element of success being those who are detractors or as you said, non fans. And you're right that those elements can rear their ugly head in some fashion in all industry and paths in one's life. Human nature is, in all honesty, our greatest weakness sometimes.

Having been a guide, I got out of the business because of a shift from regular folks you describe who drew a tag and needed help with horses or mules and were unfamiliar with the area they drew that tag out, to people who were so drunk with the power of money and killing a big trophy, that I didn't want to be a part of it anymore. Having to work my butt off so that some schlubb from out of state could roll in and expect me to put them right up the butthole of an instant trophy was the "new norm" and not for me. The market and expenses also shifted in that direction and therefore I was not going to be a part of the system that enabled the entitled hunter to come in without a care in the world about what needed to be done to produce the animals of their dreams. Anyway, that is where my perspective comes from. Now, being a public land hunter in it to win it like most everyone else, I see the downside of tags going for ridiculous prices and the benefit of that money doing good work. However, the little man syndrome I see with some of the leadership on those groups auctioning those tags see it differently. I can tell you want to believe they have wildlife and heritage in mind and they tell you that is their primary goal and mission but is it? Somehow, I also sense you have had your own questions about issues brought up here and if someone were constantly telling me that being the fan of a certain coach made me a dbag, instead of getting defensive, I'd ask myself what it is about the coach making all these people say that in the first place. Jealousy? Nope. I am only jealous when someone goes hands on with an animals I've watched for years before I do on public land, but I am happy for them because of the marvel of what they had accomplished and I can't help but celebrate with ANYONE who does the work required to be a responsible participant in everything we discuss here. I don't reply to pick a fight or argue about who's junk is bigger, who's wallet fatter, or who's group did the most good. I reply for the dialogue and for your's, I thank you and would welcome almost anyone here to my camp anytime.


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Again, how welfare? They signed a contract with the state. They are providing a service for the state. The state likes the Expo, thats why they just renewed the contract. The DWR likes the current set up. The media will always try and stir. Guess we will see how it all shakes out.
 
So, someone made the arguement that we couldn't make up the difference of what those conservation and expo tags bring in by raising tag prices. Lets round that number from the expo to $1,000,000.00. I know its a tax but as sportsmen, we have taken it in the shorts on purpose in the past, just bear with me.

Lets round up the total number of applicants in Utah for various hunts combined to 500,000 (one hunter putting in for multiple tags) and then lets double that number because there are anglers and trappers who have to get licensed too and big game licenses are required to draw a big game tag. Add a dollar to each licence earmarked for "conservation" and add one dollar to each application for each species. I don't know what the actual numbers of applications are, someone smarter than me probably already has the numbers, but if we do just that, we've made up the money from the expo (minus the economic impact to SLC for hosting it, the argument here is on making up that money from those tags) and essentially doubled it. So many of us are willing to forgo a couple of dollars just to end this stupid fighting, why not?

Hopefully someone can make better sense of what I'm trying to convey....CT scan has made me a little loopy.



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
TOP,

We all know where that money is going.....out of state to other "legislative necessities" that are then submitted as a "wolf fight".

Here's another discussion on poor leadership being on the wrong side of a fight for public land hunters.

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=254348

I think Big Finn nails it.



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 01:57PM (MST)[p]Klb,
No argument from me. Double my tag cost and I'll still apply and hunt with my family. But that is just not the case with most sportsman. If the DWR had enough money to cover it all and do the projects then great. They don't and they won't. This was the states doing. They issue the conservation and convention tags. To me that says they believe that is the best way to make the dollars.

Raise the tag prices and you lose hunters, that is what I have heard over and over and over. So you take a percentage and auction them and generate those dollars from a few while still keeping it affordable for the rest of us. Again if those buying the tags only shot small animals we wouldn't even be having this debate. It's all about wanting more chance at not only hunting...but hunting big animals.

One quick question...if you purchase a conservation tag while at a RMEF banquet does that mean it's ok? What about if you buy the tag from to MDF? Is it only the SFW Sponsored events that auction the bad tags?
 
RMEF accounts for where that money goes and are transparent in how those funds are expended. SFW it goes into the organization and never gets accounted for in a transparent manner.

File an audited financial statement like RMEF and half the peanut gallery will shut up, the other half won't shut up no matter what you do.

Also in Montana SFW is always on the side against hunters. Quit doing that also.

Nemont
 
"This latest legalized theft, and yes, that's exactly what it is,"


Its gems like this that keep me coming back. Good old "legalized theft". You mean where people make money and wildlife has a value. Is that theft? How do you steal something that before you owned it was worth no dollars and secondly, you are part owner of before it was aquired? Third how is anything legal titled "theft"?

This doesn't violate NACM. Why did you not cry when the states have been selling trapping permits for the past several decades? IS that different in any way? That didn't violate the NACM then. Maybe yall should scream for each of those trappers 1040 since they are making money off of a public resource. If you don't think this is nothing more than a selfish arguement over who kills the last deer combined with class warfare you are not being truthful with us or yourself.
 
Topgun, If you pull up the last meeting that was held by the wild life board, you will get an explanation of how the $300,000 worked and the accountability is taken care of. You will also see that it was open to all groups and only SFW applied for it. The contract was set up and so far things have gone as planned but the State.
 
Muley you are sure putting on a good show today playing dumb to alot of statements being made here today. Tell me you think it's ok to run a business that pushes policies that the majority of sportsman don't agree with.I'll play along and state a few of the issues I have and you tell me how much or what percent of that total amount was raised by SFW on there own. Then second how much or what percent went into there bank account.

State tax payer money:(600,000) the last two years (BGF) same thing

Convention tags since founded:( right around 1 million) per year just in application fees alone. And this money has no rules attached on how it is used none.

Conservation tags: the org that handles these still retains 10% of total sale amount.How much is made off the 10% through out the state.

Private donations how many millions are sighned over to these guys every year?

At the end of the day I would like to know how much you guys really make on your own with out the hand-outs?
 
Cache,
Most of the sportsman don't agree with? Please explain that comment. I'm trying I figure out how you know what the majority believes
? The SFW grows, even with the recent smear campaigns. So where are these sportsman? Why are they not voting out the state politicians that support the SFW and the tags? Always claiming to be the voice of the majority the average joes.
 
Muley I'll make you a deal why don't you work on coming up with some hard numbers on your memberships( and yes ill even let you count the blind memberships as well)and I'll work on some overall sportsman numbers across Utah then let's put them together and come up with a percentage of sportsman whom are SFW members. Sound good?
 
I wonder who will have the harder job? You getting a truthful answer from your leaders or me trying to accurately determine how many sportsman are in the state of Utah?
 
cache,
Not being a member of the SFW does not mean you are against them. That is my point. Most of the sportsman and women in the state are indifferent.
 
That's hilarious! Nice cop-out. Let me know when get those membership numbers and I'll work on my half.I think you have the numbers but don't want to put them on a public forum so you can keep telling yourself and others that your group has alot more support than it really does.
 
Hey buttmunches, this isn't an SFW debate.

Hunting across the board has become some kind of elitist animal. With hunters ridiculing each other on how an animal was killed, how much was spent, how big it is, how they found it, etc........

Look at the whitetail hunters with huge farms and acres of "foodplots" which are just enormous bait sites. My guess is they probably don't let other people hunt their land, and they are probably attracting "public deer" onto their farms, just for the sake of killing some giant buck.

If you listen and read, it appears that every hunter thinks they are entitled to the biggest animal on the mountain, and they should be able to kill said animal at whatever cost.

Oh, and screw all the rich guys, they are destroying hunting and should just sit home and spend their money on golf, or porn.

Oh, and screw SFW/MDF/SCI etc for getting tags for people to draw/buy. I don't know of anywhere else you can put in for 12-15 or more sheep tags as you can at the SFW expo or the Sheep expo. Why someone would b!tch about that boggles my mind.

And for the record I believe most hunters are selfish enough to not do a damn thing all year to help wildlife, but yet are the first to b!tch about how bad the hunting is.

Carry on. I still can't figure out how to say what I'm feeling, but, I'll keep trying.
 
Cache,
It's funny how you say the majority of sportmen are against SFW. Yet is most cities in Utah, the largest fundraisers are usually SFW wildlife banquets.

The truth is most hunters never get on Monster Muleys, most don't even put in for draw hunts, and most don't even know what conservation tags are.

People who are typically on Monster Muleys are hard core hunters, who are passionate about hunting, far from ave hunters.

Most hunters don't get involved, moast people who attend banquets do get involved to make things better.
 
smitty,
You are right, hunting is in stage where it is a trendy thing to do. When any hobby or sport does that things get crazy. Look at the cost of hunting gear, archery stuff is alarmingly expensive, long range rifles for 10k, high end clothing jackets for 300, boots for 500, scopes, backpacks, socks, knives, flashlights. It's all through the roof. TV personalities pushing products. It's a trend and yes as a result things like cost of tags has also rocketed. It's not one specific groups or person, it's the nature of the industry.

And yes jealousy comes with all of that. It's human nature.
 
Hey smitty,
If your going to start a thread and throw your two cents in on how you feel about something. I'd think you would kind of expect some backlash from those of us who don't think or buy into the same stuff you do. Since when do you get to mandate what someone else talks about just cause you started the tread?Just sayin.
 
>One quick question...if you purchase a
>conservation tag while at a
>RMEF banquet does that mean
>it's ok? What about
>if you buy the tag
>from to MDF? Is
>it only the SFW Sponsored
>events that auction the bad
>tags?


You won't get a specific argument out of me on the conservation tags because all groups account for them as they should although I believe there was a moose count issue concerning tags for moose, but they closed that loophole. Nope, and I fully understand the draw that these tags cause for banquets. Listen, I will grant that each of us are only human and all of us make mistakes and occasional stupid decision. Here's how I see this: I refuse to break the law or publicly do anything stupid because 1. It will embarrass my family, friends, and colleagues that associate with me. 2. I do not have the fear of any man in my body even those much stronger than myself BUT I do fear disappointing God. That is what keeps me in line every day of my life. Now, we have folks doing shady things that are questioned by so many of us who work to live our lives the way we feel is good and just. Isn't that somehow telling? I like reasonable discussion and debate. But I also like those in my life. If I were doing something to embarrass them or call into question my integrity, I would do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING not to disparage those around me. That said, I expect those I associate with, my friends, and especially my family to meet that same standard. The leadership is what I question, not the good of the people who make up the body of SFW, MDF, RMEF, DU, UWC, DWR, PTA, ICSO or any other initialed group out there. Integrity. Its the most powerful asset of any man.

Shawn

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
>smitty,
>You are right, hunting is
>in stage where it is
>a trendy thing to do.
> When any hobby or
>sport does that things get
>crazy. Look at the
>cost of hunting gear, archery
>stuff is alarmingly expensive, long
>range rifles for 10k, high
>end clothing jackets for 300,
>boots for 500, scopes, backpacks,
>socks, knives, flashlights. It's
>all through the roof.
>TV personalities pushing products.
>It's a trend and yes
>as a result things like
>cost of tags has also
>rocketed. It's not
>one specific groups or person,
> it's the nature of
>the industry.
>
>And yes jealousy comes with all
>of that. It's human
>nature.

Dear GAWD, ya nailed it! But why does it have to be that way? The regular and hardcore hunters outnumber the trendy and that is what I think smitty is talking about. Regardless of the group you belong to, why not allow the discussion on open books, tags allotments for the expo/conservation or even big game tag numbers act as a bonding agent for all of us. That doesn't have to happen by any one titled group. I for one, question the integrity (as stated before) of those in leadership roles who assume their power of influence outweighs the desires of those they represent. To smitty's point, we all then biznitch slap each other on MM and create a inward disposition of angst that for some odd reason, erodes when we are doing projects, in camp, or running into each other at the grocery store. I share smitty's frustration. I'd call for a group hug but that would be gay and a whole other topic.


Shawn

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
DAMNIT!You figured us out,we all wish we were fat ass lazy SOBs that need a $100,000 dollar tag and a POS outfitter named MOSSBALLS with his crew of goonies to kill a muledeer.Your so much smarter than everyone here,thats why you figured it out first.
 
As a large group of friends, neighbors, and Family, many of us used to hunt the local season for Blacktails, hunt the Sierra for muleys, and then maybe make a trip to hunt a State or two other than our own. We could just about hunt any State, anywhere, any zone in that State that we wanted. It was all pretty much open, some draw areas but not tuff at all to get, a ton of over the counter stuff, and hunting on the private ranches was just for the asking, thank you very much, especially if you knew somebody like most everybody did.

That's back even in the 70's and early 80's for me and my better hunts but even more so in my Dad's generation and my Grandfather's before that. Hate? Yeah, i hate the way hunting has become. As i said, we could pretty much hunt anywhere every year. Now one might wait dozens of years, even a lifetime to hunt what was once a no big deal area and those ranches we used to hunt, are now big money enterprises only and mostly out of reach for those knocking on doors.

I don't have the answers or the fix, just making a observation. Used to be that lots of guys that hunted also had plenty of extra money but they hunted the same as every body else. The field was level and for the most part, the harder better hunters willing to pay the price in effort, brought in the better bucks. My guess is the newer guys coming in to the sport, guys with the money to burn, didn't much care for that...

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Smittplick look what you've done.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-13 AT 07:45AM (MST)[p]>Topgun, If you pull
>up the last meeting that
>was held by the wild
>life board, you will get
>an explanation of how the
>$300,000 worked and the accountability
>is taken care of.
>You will also see that
>it was open to all
>groups and only SFW applied
>for it. The contract
>was set up and so
>far things have gone as
>planned but the State.


***Birdman---Do you know who came up with the idea of this $300,000 in the first place? Take an educated guess! Did you ever figure that just maybe all the other organizations saw it as the unneeded boondoggle that it certainly is/was and feeling it was an absolute waste of taxpayer's money did not bid? Are you aware that BGF is set up as a "for profit" organization and, if you are, have you ever wondered why? Now you're telling me that you/SFW can account for where that $300,000 to BGF went even though there is no DC Lobbyist and the Lady Legislator that put up the amendment not to allow the second $300,000 to be spent on the same BS stated the Legislators themselves can't even get an accounting of where the money went!!! Please be real and if you can do it because I'm getting tired of being told to "look it up"! I've done so many GD searches trying to come up with stuff because of the lack of transparency of SFW/BGF that I'm about ready for a new computer & keyboard! The Lady Legislator also wasn't very happy that BGF was paid in full 4 days after the first $300,000 was approved even though the contract stated it was to be paid after the fact and when it was shown what was done to earn it. Again that makes it look very fishy to say the least! Then there's the great comment by the Director himself who said by golly he couldn't even remember giving that $300,000 check to BGF and would make no further comments, LOL!!! Sorry to say it, but you are so convinced those top few guys are your savior that I honestly believe they could walk into your house and steal every belonging right in front of you and you would stick up for why they did it and find nothing wrong with it!!!
 
"Are you aware that BGF is set up as a "for profit" organization and, if you are, have you ever wondered why? "


What is wrong with BGF being "for profit"? Why would anyone need to wonder why? Its OK if people that provide a service make money. That is not evil. Are they telling people they are not for profit and therefore defrauding people? Man up and answer why profit is so evil to you.
 
Hey at least this made it past 3 posts, unlike your Bianca the finger-b***ing blow up doll!
 
>"Are you aware that BGF is
>set up as a "for
>profit" organization and, if you
>are, have you ever wondered
>why? "
>
>
>What is wrong with BGF being
>"for profit"? Why would
>anyone need to wonder why?
> Its OK if people
>that provide a service make
>money. That is not
>evil. Are they telling
>people they are not for
>profit and therefore defrauding people?
> Man up and answer
>why profit is so evil
>to you.


***Who the fluck asked you for your buttinski comments again? The post was addressed to Birdman after his response to me so stay the fluck out of the conversation between two other people. Same old BS from you though because I never said there was anything wrong with a "for profit"! With BGF certainly not saying what they are in their website, it leads most to assume because they are set up to take donations that they are the opposite.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-13 AT 08:55AM (MST)[p]"With BGF certainly not saying what they are in their website, it leads most to assume because they are set up to take donations that they are the opposite."



So they (BGF) must be hated for other people's foolish assumptions?????? How do you know "most" are as foolish as you?


If you want your questions and comments to be protected and private, DON'T POST THEM ON AN INTERNET FORUM!
 
"Hey at least this made it past 3 posts, unlike your Bianca the finger-b***ing blow up doll!"

:D

More stuff I hope I never know about.
 
Remember TOPGUN, I said before I think you are a good guy! Remember, I realize you live in Michigan and never been in Utah... But, its good that you do take an interest in these debates and probably do a lot more research than me!!!

But when you said to Tri:

"The post was addressed to Birdman after his response to me so stay the fluck out of the conversation between two other people"

Isn't that kind of ironic!
 
Not ironic at all, as if you haven't noticed I've been trying to stay very low key on the SFW members and just attacking the head of the snake in open threads. However, then there is Trisate, who every time there is a decent thread started or an honest dialogue between two people he immediately comes on, butts in, and takes the thread in an entirely different direction. That's not my style at all and I should have let it go like everyone else is trying to do and not even made a followup post. THAT was my mistake!
 
"Not ironic at all, as if you haven't noticed I've been trying to stay very low key on the SFW members and just attacking the head of the snake in open threads. However, then there is Trisate, who every time there is a decent thread started or an honest dialogue between two people he immediately comes on, butts in, and takes the thread in an entirely different direction."

Actually the thread was being taken in a different direction by YOU, Topgun. YOU brought up BGF which wasn't even mentioned in the original post. I actually was taking back the thread to the original topic of "jealousy" which is what you suffer from when you start attacking companies for being "for profit".


" That's not my style at all and I should have let it go like everyone else is trying to do and not even made a followup post. THAT was my mistake! "

Thats exactly your style! If you want to go start honest dialogue between only two people GET OFF OF AN INTERNET FORUM AND E-MAIL THE GUY!
 
Topgun, I really have not taken time to read the posts from when you replied until now. But the one thing that I would want to say, is that the division and the State legislators do not want wolves in Utah. None at all. I thought that the director explained it really well at the Wildlife Board meeting but then I could have missed something. The $300,000 was put there for bid and if no one thought that it was a necessary thing then I guess they do not care if wolves are in Utah. BGF does and so does SFW. We see the damage that is being done in Idaho and Montana and do not want it in Utah. Now as for the leaders of SFW, I am not blinded by them. I give them my opinion all the time. Would I trust them in my house? Yes I would. I know them all very well and think that they are as honest as can be. I know you do not trust them, but then you do not really know what is going on and how it is all working. That is fine, your right. Maybe you will think I am a crook, do not know, do not care. I have to answer for myself. I do know that the leaders of SFW trust me and I have leeway. I know that if there is something that needs to be done for wildlife, I can get it ok'd and get it done. Trust, YES. I truly do trust them. I know them first hand and know their ethics. Now that is me. You can think what you want and it will not bother me. I am satisfied with what is going on and how it is working.
 
You are okay they helped close stream access?

You're okay that they were wrong on the wolf issue and Simpson/Tester?

You're okay they are on the wrong side again concerning land ownership in Montana?

You're okay with taking $300,000.00 for something NOT needed in Utah at this time?


Not attacking you personally, but asking some questions concerning past arguments. If you believe that in your gut, go with that. Hope it serves you well.

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
>Topgun, I really
>have not taken time to
>read the posts from when
>you replied until now.
>But the one thing that
>I would want to say,
>is that the division and
>the State legislators do not
>want wolves in Utah.
>None at all. I
>thought that the director explained
>it really well at the
>Wildlife Board meeting but then
>I could have missed something.
>The $300,000 was put there
>for bid and if no
>one thought that it was
>a necessary thing then I
>guess they do not care
>if wolves are in Utah.
> BGF does and so
>does SFW. We see
>the damage that is being
>done in Idaho and Montana
>and do not want it
>in Utah. Now as
>for the leaders of SFW,
>I am not blinded by
>them. I give them
>my opinion all the time.
> Would I trust them
>in my house? Yes I
>would. I know them
>all very well and think
>that they are as honest
>as can be. I
>know you do not trust
>them, but then you do
>not really know what is
>going on and how it
>is all working. That
>is fine, your right.
>Maybe you will think I
>am a crook, do not
>know, do not care.
>I have to answer for
>myself. I do know
>that the leaders of SFW
>trust me and I have
>leeway. I know that if
>there is something that needs
>to be done for wildlife,
>I can get it ok'd
>and get it done.
>Trust, YES. I truly
>do trust them. I
>know them first hand and
>know their ethics. Now
>that is me. You
>can think what you want
>and it will not bother
>me. I am satisfied
>with what is going on
>and how it is working. >


***Birdman---I'm going to touch on a few of your sentences with some questions to see if you can really understand what you wrote. Your first few regarding nobody wanting wolves in Utah is not questioned, but your reasoning after that makes no sense at all IMHO. Why would you think that because no other organization bid on that money that they don't care if wolves are in Utah when everyone knows the damage they've done to the ungulate population throughout areas where they have been allowed to expand? Further, with attempts now being made to get them under control and down to acceptable levels in the three states near Utah and no plans by the Feds to allow introduction or their expansion into Utah, what positive uses could the initial $300,000 have possibly been used for when it was strictly for wolf lobbying and no lobbyists even exist for the organizations in DC? The Lady Legislator in Utah that tried to have this second $300,000 stricken from the budget stated they have never been given an account of where the first money went. You appear to be saying you do, so if that's correct why hasn't the organization followed up with what they used it for and made it public? Do you not see that this is the exact thing that happened with the Expo tag fees in that they have fought to keep all those fees and will not tell anyone where it goes? How can you not wonder why everyone is questioning your organization when every time we turn around we see tons of incoming money that is going unaccounted for! What is even worse is that now a huge amount of money is being taken right out of the Utah GF, money that is coming out of all taxpayers pockets and, therefore, involves the entire Utah populace. It would look like at the hearing that when your organizations asked for more money they would have gone down a list of where last years money went. That is not what occurred and I guess the only thing that we can conclude is that Don knew it was already in the bag with the Legislators he evidently has in his pocket that could swing it again! You seem like a great guy, just like a lot of the other members that are doing a lot of groundwork for the group, but the only conclusion I can come up with is that you all are really naive in your denial of things that absolutely stink and need to be rectified before your group will have an overall positive image. I hope this finds you doing better and you have a great Easter with the family!
 
So a man that lives 1000 miles from Utah, doesn't hunt Utah, doesn't belong to SFW, doesn't help on their projects, and has never sat and talked to the actual management of SFW tells a man this:

"***Birdman---I'm going to touch on a few of your sentences with some questions to see if you can really understand what you wrote."


Birdman does all the things listed above as best I can tell. People this quote under these circumstances is the fingerprint of self centered ego-mania. I give you Topgun.
 
"You are okay they helped close stream access?"

Birdman has talked about TRUST. What side you stand on this issue doesn't determine TRUST.

"You're okay that they were wrong on the wolf issue and Simpson/Tester?"

Again an opinion between people that are free to have them, not a TRUST issue.

"You're okay they are on the wrong side again concerning land ownership in Montana?"

Again "the wrong side" is just an opinion. Not an issue of TRUST.

"You're okay with taking $300,000.00 for something NOT needed in Utah at this time?"

"Not Needed" still an opinion that shouldn't influence trust.

I am willing to bet at one time or another you had a difference of opinion with your parents. Does that you can not TRUST them now? Of course not.
 
Topgun, Like I said before, the contract made on the $300,000 dollars calls for an explanation in June. Not before. Second, the Fed.wildlife is trying to put wolves in Utah. The Mexican Gray wolf is something they want to put on the Henry mountains. There plan has been on the net. They also want wolves from Wyoming into the Uinta's and farther south. That has been in their plans. Better to stop it before it happens than wait till it is here and then try to control it. As for a overall positive image of SFW, You know as well as I do that it will never happen and has never happened in ANY group. There is never a consensus. One think I will say is that I feel good with what is going on. I see it and know. I am not here to argue with you or any other people. It seems to me that you and others are doing nothing but looking for the negative things about SFW and nothing else. There is always going to be papers, magazines and other articles that will be negative about a lot of things. Not everyone agrees. Difference is I can look at both and determine what is true and what is not being I am living right in the middle of it. SFW has been blasted for the pheasant transplants and the deer translocation. Why did they not do it earlier. Permission needs to be granted by the state. People do not now how things work and what regulations there is to follow so if it takes to long it is SFW's fault. Those that hate SFW will most likely always hate them. That is there right. You are a long ways from Utah reading only negative things. I am in the middle looking at the positive things. SFW must be doing something right as it continues to grow in a big way. I see first hand. You look for the negative things. If I wanted to go on the net I would bet I could find lots of negative things about any organization. Not all agree.
 
It's the negative money dealing connotations that are tearing down all the good being done by you and your other blue collar guys on the ground that need to be addressed by your hierarchy and they're not doing it. I'm not now and haven't been making any negative comments about what you are doing on the ground because, as you stated, I can't see it from MI. It does sound like a lot of good work is getting done by good people though. What I can see, however, is $600,000 of Utah taxpayers money going to the group, besides many times that amount in wildlife tags over the years with no transparency as to whether it went for the good of the animals and/or habitat they live in. "Trust me" when we keep seeing what we're seeing just doesn't cut it when we're talking about what we are. Doesn't it make sense that if things were on the up and up that the leaders would gladly open their books, show all the critics we're wrong abuot them, and then your group could certainly grow by leaps and bounds!!!
 
>So a man that lives 1000
>miles from Utah, doesn't hunt
>Utah, doesn't belong to SFW,
>doesn't help on their projects,
>and has never sat and
>talked to the actual management
>of SFW tells a man
>this:
>
>"***Birdman---I'm going to touch on a
>few of your sentences with
>some questions to see if
>you can really understand what
>you wrote."
>
>
>Birdman does all the things listed
>above as best I can
>tell. People this quote
>under these circumstances is the
>fingerprint of self centered ego-mania.
> I give you Topgun.
>

but you live in Texas and know everything there is to know about how to manage game herds across the west?

As a self centered know it all Texan I give you Tristate.
 
"but you live in Texas and know everything there is to know about how to manage game herds across the west?

As a self centered know it all Texan I give you Tristate."


Can you show me where I have made that claim? Buy the way you forgot one little detail. I hold a degree in Wildlife Fisheries. Do you NeMont? I have practiced deer managment professionaly. Have you NeMont?

Do you see me argueing with Birdman about the effectiveness of SFW wildlife strategies? I don't think so. Do you see me telling Birdman what SFW should be doing for habitat repair in Utah? Nope. Quit being so emotional and start using logic, NeMont.
 
Topgun, Like I said, the contract calls for an accounting of the money at the end of June. At that time it will be done. If you want to try to raise a ruckus now that is your right. I will wait till the end of June as the contract calls for the accounting to the state.
 
There is NO plan to put Mexican Wolves on the Henries. That is such a crock of S$#@ I don't even want to waste the 1/2 calories my fingers would burn. I have spoken many times with USFWS concerning the Mexican Wolf........nope, not going to happen because there is zero evidence to support the criteria that they even ever existed there except for some mention in a paper long ago. Nothing. So the Feds aren't conspiring to screw up like they did before, sorry. There is a small (100 - 150 members) group with a website only THEY frequent who would like to see wolves introduced into the Kaibab. Sad for them, good for us, they are mostly a joke to those who would make that kind of decision and the politeness given to this little group is political decorum. Nothing more. So stop with the "wolf is coming" bs. They (Greys) are likely already in parts of Northern Utah and if they rear their ugly heads in the deregulated zone....BANG! What group was against Simpsons / Tester again?

Shawn

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
+1 klbzdad!!! The poor guy is so naive and just keeps coming up with excuse after excuse to allow the top dogs to eat high off the hog with no accountability!
 
>Topgun, Like I said, the
>contract calls for an accounting
>of the money at the
>end of June. At
>that time it will be
>done. If you want
>to try to raise a
>ruckus now that is your
>right. I will wait
>till the end of June
>as the contract calls for
>the accounting to the state.
>

And if that's correct and they haven't made the grade are they going to give back all the money, LOL?
 
"And if that's correct and they haven't made the grade are they going to give back all the money, LOL?"


Told you this isn't about accounting.

Topgun, what exactly is "the grade"? That is even more vague than your definition of "the books".
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-13 AT 12:09PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-13 AT 12:08?PM (MST)

>"but you live in Texas and
>know everything there is to
>know about how to manage
>game herds across the west?
>
>
>As a self centered know it
>all Texan I give you
>Tristate."
>
>
>Can you show me where I
>have made that claim?
>Buy the way you forgot
>one little detail. I
>hold a degree in Wildlife
>Fisheries. Do you NeMont?
> I have practiced deer
>managment professionaly. Have you
>NeMont?
>
>Do you see me argueing with
>Birdman about the effectiveness of
>SFW wildlife strategies? I
>don't think so. Do
>you see me telling Birdman
>what SFW should be doing
>for habitat repair in Utah?
> Nope. Quit being
>so emotional and start using
>logic, NeMont.

I don't really care if you have a degree and have managed whitetails to come to cornflinger set on a timer. It isn't a reaction to anything with emotion it is a reaction to you thinking because you have a degree you know it all.

You don't practice what you preach and want to inject your values onto people who don't hold the same values when it comes to managing their big game herds.

You post idiotic drivel about how things should be without a single firing brain cell about how things are and what it actually takes to change them. You want everyone to pay $5,000 for a deer tag but could care less to what that would do to the support for hunting in this country and what it does to dry up the political support for wildlife inside all the western states by reducing the number of people who hunt.

The big game animals in my states are owned by the people per our Constitution, you have no say how they are managed, what we do or don't do with or for them or for hunters, NR or Resident.

Simply raising hand fed Whitetails doesn't make you an expert in anything, degree or no degree.

Nemont
 
You are right that wolf plans are changing constantly. As of 2012 there were talks by the Fed wildlife service of wolves into the pine valley mountains and also to the Arizona Strip. Course the strip is a few miles from Utah. Also the management plan for the feds still includes I 70 south as a Mexican wolf recovery area. Now weather they were indigenous to the area or not that area has been changed from endangered to a management plan. As you know the plans are changing constantly.
Now that wolves have been introduced into Arizona with the wolves increasing in numbers, 19 in 2011 and 20 more in 2012 The border of Utah is getting surrounded. Yes there is a need to worry about wolves in Utah. Remember two years ago when they found the hybreds and the worries that were brought up by sportsmen about having wolves in Utah. Will Utah is not going to take any chances.
 
You know Topgun, if they do not make the grade, I guess they will not get the contract renewed. Right now it is in force and waiting will tell. Until then now one knows, including you topgun if what they are doing is worth it. You are good at speculation. The good part is that most the people in Utah agree with what the state is trying to do. I know there are those that have had their feelings hurt by SFW and there always will be. I am glad there is an organization doing what it can to help with hunting and wildlife in the state of Utah. Course if you don't agree, get a group that is willing to try and fix things and get it done. Get some clout behind you guys and get things fixed.
 
"I don't really care if you have a degree and have managed whitetails to come to cornflinger set on a timer. It isn't a reaction to anything with emotion it is a reaction to you thinking because you have a degree you know it all."

Your emotions are getting the best of you again. I have managed many other species besides corn fed whitetail. Care to make some more assumptions.

"You don't practice what you preach and want to inject your values onto people who don't hold the same values when it comes to managing their big game herds."

What did I not practice? I haven't stated one single thing on these forums that should be done that I am not willingto be put under the same rules. As for their game herds haven't you been stating all along that its our game heards???

"You post idiotic drivel about how things should be without a single firing brain cell about how things are and what it actually takes to change them. You want everyone to pay $5,000 for a deer tag but could care less to what that would do to the support for hunting in this country and what it does to dry up the political support for wildlife inside all the western states by reducing the number of people who hunt."

Where did I say I want every deer tag to cost $5000? Can you find that quote for me? You just kind of make up the "truth" as you type away.

"The big game animals in my states are owned by the people per our Constitution, you have no say how they are managed, what we do or don't do with or for them or for hunters, NR or Resident."

Funny I am pretty sure I am saying something here. But you are right I can't stop you from screwing yourself and your decendents out of big game hunting. Go right ahead. Kepp practicing the same idiot out dated beliefs that got you to this happy point you are now.

"Simply raising hand fed Whitetails doesn't make you an expert in anything, degree or no degree."

I am pretty sure it would make me an expert in hand feeding whitetails. Just sayin' degree or no degree. By the way I managed a ranch for free range, never hand fed, mule deer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-13 AT 01:19PM (MST)[p]> By the way I
>managed a ranch for free
>range, never hand fed, mule
>deer.


That and $3.50 will get you cup of coffee at any Starbucks.

Wordsmith all you want, I know my kids and their kids will have not only places to hunt but mule deer but also access to hunt, along with almost every other species Montana has to offer, except Sheep, Moose and Goats.

I have no intention of screwing the next generations out of their outdoor heritage or out of access to big game herds.

You have never managed a free ranged mule deer herd on Public lands with public access and all the associated issues with that nor have you managed Mule Deer in Eastern Montana where one winter can decimate a decades worth of mule deer herd growth regardless of what the tags cots. So you don't pretend you know squat about free range, public lands mule deer management.

Nemont
 

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