Hyde Park poachers Plead guilty

LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-15 AT 05:35PM (MST)[p]Hey shotgun1,
Sounds like your lumping all of us from Texas in to one group. There are azzholes in every state. And there's also Sh!tholes in every state and I've been to about all of them.
Thank you

Almost forgot.....this was also the 100th post on this comedy.

As far as I'm concerned, every state needs to step up the punishment on poachers. They take our resources and gives real sportsman a bad name.
 
JFP!

Somebody didn't like Post # 7!

I just got a Threat!

Last time I got a Threat I posted it here on MM & it cost me my original Handle!








[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-15 AT 07:27PM (MST)[p]I have a problem with the "worthless deer" comments. So, if the only thing worth protecting is something that has monetary value, then Theodore Roosevelt, Aldo Leopold, John Muir, and every other great conservationist had it all wrong. Heck, let's rescind the wilderness act and the organic act. Let's mine it all, sell all the timber, level those damn mountains and farm them! Libraries? Wasted space! Heck even the dirt under those prisons are wasted, as are our tax dollars keeping those offenders in! Let's let all them prisoners loose!

Logic would dictate that these guys stole from the public. Because a certain person on this site doesn't see any intrinsic value in a big deer, doesn't mean those that enjoyed him didn't either. There are many pieces of art, songs, and poems that I see no value in, but others would disagree.

There are laws on the books that protect deer from being killed out of season, at night, etc. Even city deer that have no monetary value should, and do receive protection. It's not up to you or me to determine the value, or to pick and choose which laws to uphold. Jaguars, Desert Tortoises, and Utah Lynx don't have monetary value to hunters, but there are laws to protect them. These guys need to pay penalties for breaking laws, regardless of whether it fits your criteria.
 
I was going to start a thread called "Biggest Douche" but I decided it would have been a waste of time.

The winner would have won in a landslide, but he would have argued some douchey point to prove he wasn't douchey, while at the same exact time proving that he is.

So I refrained.
 
Geezus, after sifting through ElkAsses links finally, refreshing myself on last years drama, I've got a pounding headache. I lost track of how many witnesses saw him after Nov. 1st, a guy who had kill pics from Oct. 27th, another guy seeing Bigfoot, and all these guys were 100% credible! AND, let's not forget metadata!
I'm heading back to the Campfire!
 
Wow! I have to admit I had this all wrong. I never ever thought anything would ever come of this. They definitely had way more evidence then (a few sightings after the season). I think I will go make some scrambled eggs because I have a sheetload of egg on my face.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-15 AT 11:07PM (MST)[p]Hey zekers, it'll only take u about 3hrs. Ask me how I know. It's all makin alot more sense now. WOW!
 
Well!

You Guys Asked for it!:D

I can add a couple more Threads if you're Bored?








[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-15 AT 11:41PM (MST)[p]I reviewed the post as well. There was a lot of confusion early on by both sides.

At first the buck was shot in Idaho, then it was shot Sunday night the last day of the hunt, then Sunday morning.

A couple Hyde Park residents said they saw the buck in November.

However, Butt's said he took the picture of the buck dead at 12 noon on Sunday, the last day of the hunt. The picture with the deer hooves hanging in the upper part of the picture, the clean saw, with no fat, blood, or hair next to the buck. The buck laying on the cement.and the Keystone 30 pack in the back ground, had dry blood everywhere.

There should have been bright red blood everywhere. The blood pattern under the hooves is a dripping pattern. There is no way you shoot the buck in the morning say around 8 am, clean it, wait for your friend, Steven to come help load it, drive from Hyde Park to Garland, 45 minutes, cut the neck off the buck, Some where around 10 AM, Remember steven help load the buck whole, because Shelby had a bad back. Hang the buck, front hooves in the top of the picture, I'm sure they would have had to have a picture session. You don't do ALL of that and take a picture at 12 noon and have Dry blood everywhere. You bow hunters, what color is the blood after 12 hours even 24 hours in the shade? Bright blood drips usually for a day, then the bright blood on cement, which is cool and in the shade stays red for another day. Try it.
A trustworthy sportsman took a picture at 2:15 PM after church that ended at 2 PM 150 yards from the Stake Center. The buck was in an open field, south of the Stake Center. Lots of hunters saw the buck going and coming to church.


The next picture with Shelby holding the buck, was Friday Nov 1st at 3:07pm. The picture that got leaked on the internet. So you shoot monster 240 inch buck, have it home and take pictures by 12 noon, then don't even bother to finish caping it out, a 30 minute job, nor call the taxidermist for 6 days. And everything is legal?

Did they freeze the buck for 6 days, so it wouldn't stink, and preserve the cape? No, because the cape is pink and not frozen in the leaked picture. Afternoon temps were around 60 degrees the end of Oct.

The hunters and friends pictures didn't match with their accounts and statements. I thought that was an intersting observation posted on monster muleys.

There was a lot of evidence Prior to me offering $3,000 dollars for a kill picture in the day light, in a legal area above Hyde Park. The evidence that sportsmen passed on tripled after that period. The DWR officers has a lot that we don't know, nor should we.

Thanks to lots of sportsmen who helped the DWR. We hope a fair judement occurs.
 
You're just startin DW!

I best pull NVB's Hyde Park Buck Thread up before He starts Poutin!:D








[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
DW, it only took me an hour. I blew past anything written by Tristate or Topgun...cuts the threads in half!

I am interested in this "honorable" Butts, and what his role was in this.
 
"Take the Buck On The Run"


Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from another you been f'n around
They say you got a Big Muley friend
You're out late every weekend
They're talkin' about you and it's bringin' me down
But I know the neighborhood
And talk is cheap and the Hyde Buck is good
And the tales grow taller on down the line
But I'm telling you,MM'ers
That I don't think it's true,MM'ers
And even if it is keep this in mind


You take the Hyde Buck on the run Maybe
If that's the way you want it Baby
Then I don't want you around
I don't believe it
Not for a minute
You're under the gun so you take it on the run

You're thinking up your white lies
You're making up your Phony Alibies
You say you're gonna Post on MM but you won't say when
But I can feel it coming
If you leave tonight keep running
And you need never look back again


Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from another you been f'n around






[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-15 AT 07:27AM (MST)[p]Nice song bessy made me laugh good humor.. Here is a question for ya how many total posts here on mm so far about this buck? Pry just enough to break the internet!

Also it might be in there somewhere but 120 posts is to much to read and well I like pics better anyway.. The only thing left I need to know is who do we send comment to about sentencing?

Tri come on man - even you have to admit my pig meme post was hilarious and spot on. Looks like after scanning the post count I have to let you know I am kinda disappointed you only had like 10 not 20 totally useless trolling rants yesterday.... You can do better today.. If you need another meme post for motivation let me know and I will do what I can...

Also since it seems you would to love to shoot town buck bud I will do something for ya.. I can get you access to a piece of land pretty much right in town where you can no doubt shoot a 190" town pet for your wall that you can brag about.. Should be just the type of hunt a trigger puller like you is looking for. I would only do this for "special" kids or a guy like you so how does 6k sound?

"munch sip"
 
Glad to see that the DWR Officers took their time that I said it would take to put the case together to nail the lying scumbags. That's all that I'll say, other than I wish everyone would quit wasting their time with Tri on this thread and use it to contact the Prosecutor and Judge who will be instrumental in either allowing this case to be a travesty or letting the people of Utah and Tri know that this kind of crap is not going to be tolerated!
 
Sorry guys I had a blow out of a party last night so I didn't get to punch buttons last night but I am back now.

Kayak,

I don't like staring at buildings around me when I hunt mule deer so I'll pass on your offer. Shame you can't make money on your deer herd though.

As for protecting things which have no value I am not against that in the least bit. But the fact of the matter is those things with no value which we protect are not protected by the same penalties as property that has worth. Hence killing a hawk doesn't land you in prison but shooting a bighorn sheep can. Believe it or not people there is logic in your justice system. In your arguments for blood there is only emotion. Just the tantrums of children who are mad at the kid who got to play with the toy they were told they couldn't touch.

One last point I want you to think about. In fifty years this hobby will be controlled almost completely by wealthy few that can afford it. We all know that and its inevitable. So some of you guys on this thread may still be alive but certainly your children or grandchildren will have to be poachers if they decide they want to be hunters. Now who do you want judging your kids and grandkids? HOW WILL YOU JUDGE THEM? You are making a bed which your children are going to have to sleep in. Do you want your grandchild in fifty years to spend ten years in prison for killing a deer? Do you want your grandchildren to have their father taken from them and thrown in a prison for a large portion of his life because he was trying to do exactly what his culture taught him to do, hunt? Or even worse he goes to prison trying to feed those kids with a deer he poached because right now you have decided to set an example that all poachers should be punished and broken alongside rapists, killers, drug dealers, and robbers?

Welcome to reality boys. Your children just might get what you asked for.
 
2 more hours of my life gone forever....thanx elkassassin! :D I want that honorary degree to come with a minor in psychology!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-15 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p]
>In fifty years this hobby will
>be controlled almost completely by
>wealthy few that can afford
>it.
>
>Welcome to reality boys. Your
>children just might get what
>you asked for.

The reality is that there are a whole lot more wealthy people that hate hunting than there are who like it and if your children get what you're asking for, there will be no "hobby".
 
Elkfromabove,

Regardless of what the rich people believe or if hunting is outlawed for everyone the future hunters will be poachers and you will have been part of deciding their severe punishments.
 
>Elkfromabove,
>
>Regardless of what the rich people
>believe or if hunting is
>outlawed for everyone the future
>hunters will be poachers and
>you will have been part
>of deciding their severe punishments.
>

Nobody has a crystal ball, you can't say what the future may hold. We may all die from a disease, astroid, whatever. But, we do have laws now, and sticking up for poachers is pretty disgusting.
 
Tristate, most of the time I like and agree with what you have to say. I like your contrarian, antagonistic, outside of the box thinking. Even here I have a hard time disagreeing with most of what you have said. But, I do take issue with your assessment of the bucks value as being Zero. That assessment being based on the fact that the state could not have sold anyone a permit to take the buck....Using your method of appraisal the Mona Lisa is also worthless simply because it is not for sale. Huh, as much as I hate to, I gotta side with Topgun on this one. This isnt a wrong color hat poaching. This is a straight up poaching of an amazing animal and when I do an appraisal of the bucks monetary value only I come up with a figure of around $200,000.00 ...you have to put the buck in the same category as an Antelope Island Buck at least.
 
>Elkfromabove,
>
>Regardless of what the rich people
>believe or if hunting is
>outlawed for everyone the future
>hunters will be poachers and
>you will have been part
>of deciding their severe punishments.
>

Severe? Seems to me that poachers of the King's deer were put to death!
 
I have enjoyed a good laugh while reading your guys' responses to a certain one sided way of thinking but I believe it's time to remember a few useful phrases that some of us have forgot. For one. "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." And secondly. "I learned that when you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty. And the pig likes it." Therefore. Stop wrestling with the pig. You wil never win.
 
> I have enjoyed a good
>laugh while reading your guys'
>responses to a certain one
>sided way of thinking but
>I believe it's time to
>remember a few useful phrases
>that some of us have
>forgot. For one. "Never argue
>with an idiot. They will
>bring you down to their
>level and beat you with
>experience." And secondly. "I learned
>that when you wrestle with
>a pig, you both get
>dirty. And the pig likes
>it." Therefore. Stop wrestling with
>the pig. You wil never
>win.

Who's trying to win? I'm in it for the humor and entertainment! And the education of you readers!
 
Elkfromabove,

Do you not read what people say they want done to poachers on here?

Trophymuley,

You forget what I taught you already so soon after your own lynching.

Trammer,

You are missing my main point of arguing the deer's worthlessness. It is a round about lesson to the people who claim a mule deer NEVER left the city limits. I am simply granting those people their crazy assumptions and trying to show them that crazy assumptions simply breed crazier conclusions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-15 AT 10:52AM (MST)[p]Poaching is getting more prevalent. Tags are being sold at the Alton Ranch, Henries etc., and not enough General Tags in Utah for all the hunters. Add in point creep, developing the Utah Front on the winter range which is placing these great bucks right in your back yards. So then the dishonest decide to "take one".
The fines should be at least 15k for a deer like that. I lived in Utah 10 years ago. Party hunting and shooting friends and wives LE animals was a bragging right for many.
Wolves will build up a few large packs and deer will disappear like crazy. So why let off poachers easy when your hunting is going to decline even more ?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-15 AT 10:26AM (MST)[p]Ram,

Hope all is well. When some hunters thought we were on a witch hunt, they didn't know what a few sportsmen knew were facts. We couldn't disclose evidence. When the hunters friend, Butts lied and said he took a picture 12 noon on the last day of the hunt and the buck was dead. I would have thought the Sportsmen of Hyde Park might be wrong. We couldn't share what some of us knew. A sportsman and friend took a picture at 2:15 of the buck next to the stake center, two other guys that don't know each other said they saw the buck in the same field at the same time period. I thought I was pretty safe to offer 3k for a kill picture, out of town. It will be over soon concerning most sportsmen. It will be interesting to see what happens in sentencing March 2nd. Good luck in the draws. I know two guys that shouldn't be hunting again, or for at least a long time.
 
First I would like to make it clear that I do not support the poaching of any big game animals for any reason. I hope that the individuals involved are sentenced very harshly in this case.

This however is my issue. I read many posts on this site and others. Many written by some that have posted on this post. They scream that this deer was huge and worth X amount of dollars and the punishment should match the crime. That this was the "kings" deer and in the past poaching him would result in death. Ok that is fine. My question is then why are these same individuals also posting on issues about the cost of the hunting and tag reductions and anti trophy hunting ect ect ect. Accusing special interest groups of trying to create the kings forest. You battle to keep hunting open to the "average joe" or "common" hunter. Yet you want your punishments to reflect that of the kings forest? Which way do want it??? Do you want supreme value placed on your wildlife or do you want it open season for all. To me it seems some of you are conflicted on what you really want? This deer did have value to the community out side of hunting and I think that may be what is clouding the arguments, in essence he was more of a piece of artwork owned by the state than an actual deer in the forest.
 
Muley73, I think you are trying way too hard to make an argument where none really exists. It is not a contradiction at all to want hunting to remain open and available to all as a public resource, but want stiff penalties for those that break the laws governing how it operates. These two ideas are not mutually exclusive. Not even close.

Huntin50, Butts reminds me of Lance Armstrong. He came at people really hard last year, yet it turns out he was lying the whole time. Not sure what makes people do that? Weird situation, for sure.
 
I'm not making an argument I am merely pointing out the fact that some would only like to acknowledge the value of this animals when they are poached. The value is there all the time. Should the penalty be stiffer on an animal that has larger antlers? According to many a yearling buck is just as capable of breeding does as a mature buck. If this is the case that yearling should have the same value as the buck with large antlers? If this is not the case then we should not scream when the cost to harvest a large antler deer is more. If larger antlers makes an animal more valuable then it should be treated that way when it alive not just when it is poached???

I believe the value is there the second that buck hits the ground as a fawn. The truth is with the state of our current deer herd in Utah the penalty for poaching a doe that lives in a huntable area should be stiffer than that of poaching a monster buck that lives in the city and never leaves. Again that bucks value was more in line with a piece of art than a natural resource owned by the state. Like stealing a bronze statue from the city park, or stealing a famous painting from the museum to hide in your home and admire for yourself rather than sharing it with the public. If it was treated like that you could have stiffer penalties than we currently have for poaching.

Trammer says that deer was worth $200,000? Well only if the gov tag or statewide tag shot him. Other wise if he set foot on huntable ground his value would have been $40. The state (KING) says so.
 
YES Muley 73! The truth will set you free! These are the points I have been making about most of these posters. Its the same guys that want more money for wildlife but don't want the cost of a tag to go up.

Vanilla,

Muley 73 is using logic. ACTUAL LOGIC. That is why you think it doesn't work. That's my hole point with the argument I made regarding whether the deer never left the town. IF that's true then logically it is easy to decide the deer was WORTHLESS. However we all know the deer walked in and out of town. But which way do you want it. DO you want to have your evidence that proves the deer was poached or do you want the evidence that proves this deer was worth tons of money? With what your good buddies here were saying you couldn't have both. Muley 73 is seeing it also. The emotional lynch mob mentality that YOU and others have on here isn't LOGIC. You want your cake and eat it too. Don't be surprised when people who aren't part of the sheep herd let you know when that's a smelly pile of bull.
 
Deer are owned by the state of Utah. The state and most hunters put an increase value on trophy animals. That is why their are laws and higher penalties for trophy animals are set by state laws.
It takes more years to draw a premium LE hunt. How many years would it take to draw a Henry Mountains tag? You would have a slim chance of shooting a 240 class buck. To buy a tag would cost 25k. Again a slim chance to get a buck like the Hyde Park buck.
To purchase a tag like like a governors tag or Antelope Island tag would cost a lot of money. 200k to 300k to have a good chance to shoot a buck like the Hyde Park buck.

Many think the value should be at the very least 8K. This was a pet deer to many Hyde Park residents. Would you be mad if someone came into your neighborhood at night, tresspassed, and shot your Black Lab? TO some hunters and non-hunters in Hyde Park, and people through out the State, this deer was more valuable, because they had hours of enjoyment watching it, and was attached to it.

If the buck did leave town, and a hunter had a chance to kill the buck legally, many are fine with that. The buck would have died legally.

The buck still spread his genes around. Some of his offspring could have left town. Some likely did. The buck had a lot of value to many.

Should their be a difference in poaching a trophy buck for greed or money,than a doe for food? I don't think shooting does in town, in the dark, after the season, with a gun, is too big of a problem. Most people would choose to just buy a cheap permit and hunt them legally.
Just a few thoughts.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-15 AT 01:30PM (MST)[p]Greg,
I understand what you are saying about the deer having more value because it had large antlers. I understand there was an added visual value because of where this buck lived. That is why I make the point that maybe we would be better served in treating this as something other than poaching. Like art theft.

As for arguing about this deer. I hope the punishment fits the crime. If some of you want to consider this deer as being the kings deer and have the punishment reflect that. I am 100% ok with that. Just remember the value is the same alive as it dead when you complain about tag cuts and license increases. You can't have it both ways.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-15 AT 01:30PM (MST)[p]Muley73 and Tristate-

There is no inconsistency in arguing for stiff penalties for poaching on one hand and against the commercialization of wildlife and hunting on the other. I think it is ridiculous to even attempt to place a monetary value on that buck or other animals for that matter. Whether the value was $40, $350 or $100,000, the fact of the matter is that these guys illegally poached (yes that is redundant) a trophy buck and should be punished accordingly. The wanton destruction of wildlife statute has language stating that if the value of the poached wildlife is over $500 then the crime can be charged as a felony. I am guessing that language is what led to the discussion concerning the monetary value of the poached buck. However, the very next line in the statute states that if the animal is a "trophy animal" then it can also be charged as a felony. Based upon the photos, there is no doubt that this was a trophy animal. Most of us believe that there should be harsh consequences for poaching, and we feel that in many cases the punishments have been too light to have a real deterrent effect on future poaching.

In any event, just because we support the North American Conservation Model does not mean that we must go easy on poachers. You guys somehow got your wires crossed on this one.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Muley73,

The value placed on these animals after they are poached is an arbitrary number the state comes up with based upon a pre-approved formula. I couldn't care less what the "appraised value" of a poached animal happens to be, to be perfectly honest with you. I don't care about fines either. A big chunk of the time they don't get paid anyway. They do it so they can collect restitution, but even then I don't think the money is used to help deer after it is all said and done. So why worry about it so much?

My position is that in cases like these, where from the very beginning it is clear that someone completely disregards the law and willfully poaches an animal, that a conviction should have mandatory jail terms. I don't care if it is a 240 inch piece of art, as you stated, a yearly doe fawn, or the biggest deer that year on the Henry Mountains. You go out with your buddies at night and kill a deer (or elk, antelope, bear, etc.) you don't have a license to legally kill...you should go to jail. I don't think it has to be for a significant amount of time, but 10-20 days seems appropriate. In more extreme or egregious cases or where there is a repeat offender, that number could go up. But there should a baseline. And these people should NEVER get to possess hunting privileges again. It is beyond me how after a few years we let these clowns get licenses again. Jail time and permanent loss of hunting privileges. That's what I'd like to see. Let's get serious about this crap.

See, my position doesn't have to even address some non-existent irrelevant argument of trophy hunting and buying tags. I don't care about any of that. In fact, I'm on the record saying that hunts like AI where someone drops a crap ton of money to go kill a deer don't bother me. So you'll have to have that argument (yes, it is made up) with someone else.

As for people who openly support poachers, I have nothing to say to them.
 
Hawkeye,
In this case it was not convicted as a felony. I have no problem in having stiff penalties for poaching. I am all for it. It is stealing from all of us. However I just choose to see the value of the deer while he is still alive rather than only placing that value on him after he is dead. Its why I support things that grow more mature bucks.
 
"As for people who openly support poachers, I have nothing to say to them."

Do you actually know people who openly support poachers?

I guess there could be, there are those that support the worst felons on Death Row...

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Vanilla,
I agree, I would like to see stiffer penalties. However the law is well the law. Everybody seems to want more in this case because it was a big viewer friendly deer. The judge chose to not push for a felony. That will effect the penalty I would guess. If we want bigger penalties we should push for them through proper channels. The fact that it takes a city deer that is unhuntable to get this much of a raise out people is what is sickening to me. I honestly care more about the 2 point wintering on the SV hill that local hoodlums shoot with a 22 while out rabbit hunting than this buck. Greg is right, he was a pet that had neat head gear. He wasn't my pet so I don't feel a personal connection like some on here.
 
Cody-

I never said that there was a felony conviction. The article makes very clear that the prosecutor allowed them to plea down to a misdemeanor. That being said, there is still a wide range of penalties that could be imposed at sentencing on March 2nd.

If you truly support things that grow more deer and mature bucks then you should support harsh penalties for poaching. Studies have shown that harsher sentences have a deterrent effect on the criminal conduct in question. In other words, if a poacher knows that he if he is caught and convicted he will face a significant fine, jail time and a permanent loss of hunting privileges, he may think twice before engaging in that conduct. It won't stop all poaching (because criminals are stupid) but it will deter some people, which means more animals and opportunity for the rest of us who follow the law.

I agree with Vanilla that it is a travesty that a guy can poach a protected animal in Utah, and be legally hunting a couple of years later.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
I can see both sides of the discussion yet I have no mixed emotions on what I think the appropriate punishment should be.

Those who say the deer is worthless are on one extreme and those who say it's worth 300K are on the other.

Let's assume it's just a piece of art work and we cannot hunt it. The art piece still has great value even though I cannot take it home and possess it!

Guys still like their art and this poacher stole it and should be punished according to the rule of law.

Just 2 cents worth,
Zeke
 
I don't think one single person on here is saying not to punish these guys. People are just starting to notice that the same people who want to cry about the value of this "trophy buck" are the same who don't want money to corrupt hunting. Well witch way you going to have it?
 
This very situation is what brought on the Sampson law here in colorado. I look for it to do the same in utah.
 
Hawk,
I never said you did. What I am saying is the judge for whatever reason choose to accept a lesser plea. This will or at least should lesson the severity of the sentence. It's how the law works (right? You're the attorney). That is my point all along.

If you want more harsher poaching penalties I am all for that!!!!! But the outcry is not so much about poaching on this one its the personal connection with the pet deer that is driving people to be so out spoken in this case. And why is there such love and connection with this deer? Because he had big antlers!!! My point is the value was there before he was poached. And guess what, there is actually more hard value in big antlered deer that are actually huntable. I'm ok with that also. Many on here posting are not.
 
"Vanilla,
I agree, I would like to see stiffer penalties. However the law is well the law. Everybody seems to want more in this case because it was a big viewer friendly deer. The judge chose to not push for a felony. That will effect the penalty I would guess. If we want bigger penalties we should push for them through proper channels. The fact that it takes a city deer that is unhuntable to get this much of a raise out people is what is sickening to me. I honestly care more about the 2 point wintering on the SV hill that local hoodlums shoot with a 22 while out rabbit hunting than this buck. Greg is right, he was a pet that had neat head gear. He wasn't my pet so I don't feel a personal connection like some on here."

First, it is not up to the judge to determine what a person is charged with. So he/she did not choose to do anything or to not do anything. And don't say "Everybody seems to want more in this case..." because I don't. I want the same in all cases like this, not just this case. Like I said, I would be asking for stiffer penalties if it was a doe fawn shot under the exact same circumstances. And I have worked the proper channels. And I know of many others, including an organization that you support, that have done the same. These things take time, especially when dealing with changing statutes. However, no law needs to change for this prosecutor and judge to do the right thing. Both these guys can spend up to 2 years in jail on these cases under the law. 10 days would be nothing.
 
DW
what would the value CO would put on this buck with the sampson Law? I think most of us are on the same page. We want a fair judgement. I'm not saying the buck is worth 200-300K. For some it is. If it turns out to be 1-2k in fines, lose license for 3 years, that is a slap on the wrist. That won't stop poaching trophy animals.

I think the DWR,and County Attorney, gives input to the judge and the judge decides. I don't know for sure. I guess we will see.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-15 AT 04:18PM (MST)[p]My personal "feelings" on this and all poaching issues. Feelings, because it's emotional, more than logical or mathematical.

I've spent years and years attempting to improve and preserve mule deer hunting and hunting and fishing in general. Beyond the sport of hunting, I believe the associated outdoor lifestyle helps preserve the principals and values of the "original United States of America". I have no patience for people that break the law, especially when it comes to wildlife.

I believe the punishment of any crime must match the magnitude of the crime. At one time, in our Western European/pre-United State of America history, we throw people in jail for years for stealing a loaf of bread, we've hung men for stealing a horse. At some point in time we determined that over punishing criminals for their crimes leads to rebellions and bloody human conflicts. Not necessarily necessary, if governments and citizens were to make sure, "the punishment fit the crime". Under that concept, most people remain relatively comfortable and satisfied that justice has been done, to all parties. Most criminals live by the policy, "I did the crime, I'll do the time", but they're not so tolerable, if the punishment far exceeds the crime.

While poaching is an crime and causes a loss to the collective public, the punishment of the poacher still, must not be harsher than the general public believes is justifiable. It would seem, a judge and or jury of our peers would be best utilized to determine appropriate justice, for each case of poaching, be it an egg stealing crow or a trophy mule deer.

DC
 
Vanilla,
I'm not disagreeing with you on the penalty. However I sure don't see a lot of post on here about poached fawns or does? I didn't see this many posts on the big buck poached down by Cedar last year? I didn't see as many posts on huge number of bucks poached off of the Vernon a couple years ago. This deer blew up because he was a pet and he had huge antlers. If the results of him being poached helps stiffen laws for poaching across the board well them he just did us all more good dead than he did being alive. Never underestimate the power of a good martyr!!!

And when I say judge I am speaking in general terms of the law process.
 
And it took the poaching of a huge bull elk "samson" in estes park on the edge of rocky mountain national park to trigger the effort to pass this law. I think this hyde park buck is utahs samson. Especially if sportsman rally and strike while the irons hot!
 
Those fines are in addition to the baseline which is what these two that took the hyde park buck will get that has so many upset and crying foul.
 
The ridiculous thing was is samson was 1 of the most photographed bulls in park history. He had matching forked g-4's that were his fingerprint. Like your hyde park buck he was easily recognizeable and had lots of eyes on him. There was no way this guy was going to get away with it.
 
When in Doubt!

Refer to Post#7:

Let's See?

A 500,000.00 Fine Each!

Confiscation of every F'N Vehicle Each of them own!

Confiscation of every F'N Weapon,Bow,SmokePole,Rifle & 22's each of them own!

Banned from ever Hunting again in their Low Life's for Life in Every State & Country on the Planet Earth!

All Their Equipment gets Destroyed(Not Sold!)cut up with Big Chop Saws,Grind their Vehicles/Guns/Wheelers in to Scrap Metal & have the UDWR make a Commercial of it & Advertise it & show what happens when you Poach & Lie!

Cut both the Lying Trigger Mans Hands off at the F'N Wrist!

Then let's see how F'N Hard they're Laughing on the way out!







[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-15 AT 05:49PM (MST)[p]I would use our samson law as your blueprint, tweek it to make it fit your state. It was passed in 98 so maybe those fines should b increased....2%/year so 32% increase? Then I'd start banging on doors at your state house, get some support and someone to champion it and get it passed into law while this whole situation is still on everyone's mind. JMO
 
>I think the DWR,and County Attorney,
>gives input to the judge
>and the judge decides. I
>don't know for sure. I
>guess we will see.

huntin50, as I understand it they were sent for pre-sentence reports. Probation will do an extensive run-down of their individual situations, not just their criminal histories. Probation will make their recommendation for sentencing based upon the information they gather, and unless the judge sees a good reason, he/she will likely follow that recommendation. I don't think you are going to get a harsh recommendation from the prosecutor in this case, based solely upon what he has already stated publicly.
 
Question here.
There seem to be few on here that are close to this case. I'm curious as to what got these guys caught? Did they get away with it until the picture of them with the Hyde park buck surfaced? Or was there an eye witness to this that actually saw something. From what I'm gathering (and I haven't read every post) is if they would of just hung it in their garage an been quiet about it they'd still be eating the back straps looking at a great set of antlers.
 
LRB elkassassin made me read all the old posts to receive my official mm law degree (you mail that yet elk?) Several people came forward and said they saw the buck after close of season including a retired police officer so an investigation was started. Then the pic hit the internet and they had someone to pressure. The guy that helped load it in the dark 2 days after close of season spilled his guts. The readers digest version, if I missed anything my apologies.
 
Greg, regardless of what you think, monster muley readers or cache valley residents this great deer was dead sunday morning Oct, 27th 2013. period. Did these two men make a choice, they wish they could take back? Damn square they did. NO one in Hyde park seen this deer at 2:15 P.M. Why? because it was dead in Garland, UT BEFORE noon. I would let anyone analyze my phone to prove this fact. This situation is very unfortunate, simple fact of the matter is a superb mule deer was lost and some bad choices were made, but I will challenge anyone on what I saw that Sunday morning. simply stating facts. O and I still live at the same address....
 
>Greg, regardless of what you think,
>monster muley readers or cache
>valley residents this great deer
>was dead sunday morning Oct,
>27th 2013. period. Did these
>two men make a choice,
>they wish they could take
>back? Damn square they did.
>NO one in Hyde park
>seen this deer at 2:15
>P.M. Why? because it was
>dead in Garland, UT BEFORE
>noon. I would let anyone
>analyze my phone to prove
>this fact. This situation is
>very unfortunate, simple fact of
>the matter is a superb
>mule deer was lost and
>some bad choices were made,
>but I will challenge anyone
>on what I saw that
>Sunday morning. simply stating facts.
>O and I still live
>at the same address....

I guess the real question is, regardless of when you took the picture, were you aware that the deer had been taken illegally at night? If not, didn't you ask questions as to how the deer was taken since he was so big and well known in the area? If you did know, then I would suggest that you are a low as the poachers for not turning them in! I'm sure you're not going to answer that you knew it was poached as that would make you as dumb as the actual poachers.
 
Hey DW!

I didn't make you read it all!

You said you couldn't find any of the Threads!

So I pulled a few(Notice I said a few!:D) of them up so I could Waste a few Days of your Life!:D

You want more Reading Material?:D



>LRB elkassassin made me read all
>the old posts to receive
>my official mm law degree
>(you mail that yet elk?)
>Several people came forward and
>said they saw the buck
>after close of season including
>a retired police officer so
>an investigation was started. Then
>the pic hit the internet
>and they had someone to
>pressure. The guy that helped
>load it in the dark
>2 days after close of
>season spilled his guts. The
>readers digest version, if I
>missed anything my apologies.










[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
Butts, It doesn't matter. Bottom line is, your 2 buddies are a couple of poaching worthless POS's. And 1 is a repeat offender.
How does that saying go? Birds of a feather???
 
Wait a minute Topgun, are you saying now if a big well known buck is seen by anyone then that person should interrogate the possessor of the deer or he/she is just as guilty as the poacher???????

So by your standards I need to question the 400 deer that came in my shop in the last 3 months?

Lets be realistic.


DW,

I realize that you are all up in love with the Sampson law. While it is nice to have a Sampson law in some respects it is also quite destructive in the big picture. Laws such as that foster the illogical idea of speciesism. It empowers the anti-hunting movement and tends to lead to destructive ecological management practices.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-15 AT 08:15AM (MST)[p]>Wait a minute Topgun, are you
>saying now if a big
>well known buck is seen
>by anyone then that person
>should interrogate the possessor of
>the deer or he/she is
>just as guilty as the
>poacher???????


***Didn't say anything of the sort mr twister. Butts is a friend of the poachers and was invited over to the house to see it and took a picture of the dead buck that was posted on the site. He says it was taken before noon and that time frame from where the buck lived and was killed to where it was taken and photographed should have rung a bell that something was fishy as far as the animal being taken during legal hours in a legal area. Rather than do anything such as notifying the appropriate authorities about it when the deer came up missing such that an inquiry could be made as to it's legality, he waited until finally posting the picture and making his claim that appeared to be an attempt to cover up the poaching incident on this site. That does not remotely correlate with what you're stating! However, if you'd like to stretch things with your question, my answer would be that if ANYONE has a legitimate suspicion that a poaching crime or any other crime has been committed they should be a good citizen and notify appropriate authorities so it can be looked into. If they don't and just close their eyes they are certainly not an exemplary citizen. Some cases even end up with charges being filed against persons that were not involved in the actual crime when it is proven that they knowingly aided and abetted the criminal to escape detection.

>So by your standards I need
>to question the 400 deer
>that came in my shop
>in the last 3 months?
>Lets be realistic.

***Nope, and we're not talking "my standards". We're talking simple ethics and personal integrity here and there is no need to do anything other than what your responsibility as a taxi is and that is that the animals brought to you are legally tagged. However, if you over hear a guy talking about the animal he brings in to your shop being taken illegally, I'll ask you a question. Are you man enough with the proper ethics and upbringing to report the guy to the proper authorities as you should or would you just keep quiet and take your taxi money knowing that the animal was taken illegally and it's now in your shop?

>DW,
>I realize that you are all
>up in love with the
>Sampson law. While it
>is nice to have a
>Sampson law in some respects
>it is also quite destructive
>in the big picture.
>Laws such as that foster
>the illogical idea of speciesism.
> It empowers the anti-hunting
>movement and tends to lead
>to destructive ecological management practices.

***The only thing destructive appears to be your take on how things should work when a person is caught doing something illegal. Most of the time our perception from your responses is that you don't take poaching seriously, regardless of what or where the animal was illegally taken. What is needed in most of the member's opinions to stop these egregious illegal activities is to make the punishment as severe as possible. Taking a poacher's license would normally be the last thing that will deter this type of activity, although that should also be included as part of a sentence! Take a big bite out of their pocket book along with a lengthy probationary period involving community service. If they can't make timely payments, then extend the community service time until sentencing conditions are fulfilled.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-15 AT 10:03AM (MST)[p]Here's what u can take to Vegas and get yer tuition money back tri. Bet the farm the Samson law will have zero effect on my life. It will have zero effect because I'm not a poacher. It's like the loaded shotgun in the corner, it'll never shoot anyone that doesnt break into my house.
 
That's not what you said at all Topgun. You specifically stated that if this man did not know the deer was taken at night shouldn't he have, "asked questions as to how the deer was taken since he was so big and well known in the area?"

My ethics tell me not to think the worst of people who kill big well known deer.


Dw,

Keep believing anti-hunters don't have an effect on you. I am sure your children will thank you later.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-15 AT 12:25PM (MST)[p]http://www.biggamehunt.net/news/poachers-draw-stiff-sentences-under-new-law
Looks like Texas caught on a year after colorado with positive results.
 
>That's not what you said at
>all Topgun. You specifically
>stated that if this man
>did not know the deer
>was taken at night shouldn't
>he have, "asked questions
>as to how the deer
>was taken since he was so big and well known
>in the area?"
>
>My ethics tell me not to
>think the worst of people
>who kill big well known
>deer.
>

***Your "ethics" are more than suspect by most of us with the continual garbage you post, especially anything having to do with poaching! This "big, well-known deer" was never out in an area where it was legal to hunt and that is why the guy should have questioned his friends as to where and when it was taken. Maybe he did and we'll never know. All we know is that he alleges he took the picture he posted on the site before noon. With the time he said he took it there should have been a red flag that the deer was not taken during legal hunting hours even if it was killed within the open season. If evidence showed he took the picture was earlier than what would have been feasible if the animal was legally killed he should have certainly been asking questions to possibly avoid being involved in a crime. I see you continue to ask questions and make comments on other's post, but you failed to answer mine in regards to an illegal animal brought into your taxi shop. How about answering that before you come up with any more questions that are more of your usual BS tactics!
My actual words C/Pd from my post:
"I guess the real question is, regardless of when you took the picture, were you aware that the deer had been taken illegally at night? If not, didn't you ask questions as to how the deer was taken since he was so big and well known in the area? If you did know, then I would suggest that you are a low as the poachers for not turning them in! I'm sure you're not going to answer that you knew it was poached as that would make you as dumb as the actual poachers.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-15 AT 01:08PM (MST)[p]DW- don't confuse him with facts. You also used some two-syllable words. He's now going to say you think poaching is akin to child torture, rape, and murder and that your dog has no value.
 
Topgun,

Go back and read YOUR words. After someone reads that how else can someone interpret your words. You specifically said he should have questioned that man, not because her herd something that sounded illegal, but because the deer was "big and well known". That's it. That's not how gentlemen treat each other period.

As for you "question", I don't knowingly take in poached deer. If someone doesn't fill out the paperwork properly the game warden will get called. If someone says something in my shop that sounds fishy, I DO NOT CALL THE GAME WARDEN. If the game warden requests my compliance on anything I COMPLY. IF SOMEONE KILLS A BIG WELL KNOWN BUCK I CONGRATULATE HIM. You should too.

DW,

Posting stories about my states game laws isn't a defense for the bad laws that you support. Learn what logic is.
 
Lol.....
41428346emporor_obama.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-15 AT 01:40PM (MST)[p]Coby "Butts",
Although I don't have all the info in the case, nor should I. I know a lot.

FACT. You knew the buck was poached on day one. Period. If it was legally shot we would have had lots of pictures of the dead buck Sunday 27th not just one. Shelby and Stevens friends would have taken lots of pictures. I haven't seen any pictures of the buck, besides your proposed picture at noon. How come if it was dead? Where are the pictures of the buck legally killed on MOnday the 28th, and Tuesday the 29th. Shelby and Steven told you to keep it quiet. Why?

FACT. You assisted and lied many times to help with the cover up.

After stress was getting to you, you told a friend H.M. after a couple drinks that you weren't going down with Steven and Shelby on this buck poaching. You told H.M. that Shelby and Steven poached the buck at night, in a field, near some homes, with a .22 caliber and a silencer, loaded it up. Took it to Plymouth dump. Shelby and Steven called you to help them. The buck was gutted on a tarp, and later guts were transported, up Hyde Park Canyon, just about 200 yards inside public ground.

You said, Shelby and Steven said they a pinged, the location with their phone, at the proposed kill site, but didn't have time according to info I recieved from a family member of Stevens, "that they were in a hurray to get home so they could go to church." So you kill a 240 inch buck, don't have ONE minute to take a kill picture in the DAY, or you might be late for church. Were you having church with them at 12 noon with the 30 pack of Keystone in Shelbys garage? How many others were attending? Where are the other pictures?

You knew the details from day one, and assisted in the cover up for your friends. Period.

You even said something to the effected, can't you congratulate a hunter for shooting a 240 inch buck. You knew the truth that it was a tame buck, shot in town, with a .22 caliber, in the dark. You three are mighty hunters.

If the buck was shot 3-4 AM on Sunday the 27th, that is just 9 hours from your picture at 12 noon. How come the buck is hanging, the neck of the buck was recently cut off, and there is dry blood everywhere? There should still be bright red blood dripping under the hooves. ALL blood is dry.

If it was shot on Sunday the 27th, prior to your 12 noon picture. Did Shelby have a big freezer to put the head and antlers in? He didn't even call the taxidermist until Sat Nov 2nd. SEVEN days after your 12 noon picture. The cape would have been rotten. Is that how you treat a Monster legally killed 240 inch buck? It would have only taken 30 minutes to cape out the buck. THe NEXT picture Friday NOV 1st 3:07 Pm the buck still ins't caped out, it is not frozen, are you telling everyone, that the buck shelby is holding is SIX days old and not frozen, and was killed legally?

You also knew that Shelby drilled a hole larger in the skull of the buck, prior to taking it to the taxidermist, to make it look like a legal caliber. We all know what a legal caliber would do if you shot a buck in the head. It would destroy the head.

Lies, lies,lies, from a deliberate calculated poaching job, of one of the largestest bucks every poached in Utah. Fill free to fill in any holes.

You, Shelby, and Steven have told enough lies. All three of you are guilty. I hope you all can learn, take the punishment, and move on with your lives.

I hope you all can reflect on what this has done to your family and friends, who are innocent. I have been to a few funerals the past few months. What do you want your family and friends to remember about you when you die? We all can reflect upon that. All three of you are realatively young. I hope you all learn from this, and after judgement is paid, behavior will change, and you have a good future.

Greg
 
huntin50 drops the mic, and walks out of the room.

Go ahead and defend these maggots again though, if you must.
 
>Topgun,
>
>Go back and read YOUR words.
> After someone reads that
>how else can someone interpret
>your words. You specifically
>said he should have questioned
>that man, not because her
>herd something that sounded illegal,
>but because the deer was
>"big and well known".
>That's it. That's not
>how gentlemen treat each other
>period.
>
>As for you "question", I don't
>knowingly take in poached deer.
> If someone doesn't fill
>out the paperwork properly the
>game warden will get called.
> If someone says something
>in my shop that sounds
>fishy, I DO NOT CALL
>THE GAME WARDEN. If
>the game warden requests my
>compliance on anything I COMPLY.
> IF SOMEONE KILLS A
>BIG WELL KNOWN BUCK I
>CONGRATULATE HIM. You should
>too.
>
>DW,
>
>Posting stories about my states game
>laws isn't a defense for
>the bad laws that you
>support. Learn what logic
>is.

Tri---You can interpret stuff any way you like and you usually do to suit your own agenda that is less than stellar. Thank you for you reply as to what you would do at your shop if something fishy about a animal turned up, as it's exactly what I figured a guy with your "ethics" would do---NOTHING!!! Very telling dude and it matches all of the rest of your condescending attitude towards law violators!
 
Huntin50. I'm a little confused with all the talk of dates, timelines, and when pictures were takin an such. I would like to know the season dates they were supposedly hunting. And when YOU think the deer was poached. That would make the statement about the picture "October 27th sunday at noon" make more sense. If you don't answer, I totally understand, you seem angry about this topic and that is totally understandable. Would be nice to put this in perspective tho..........
 
"I realize that you are all up in love with the Sampson law. While it is nice to have a Sampson law in some respects it is also quite destructive in the big picture. Laws such as that foster the illogical idea of speciesism. It empowers the anti-hunting movement and tends to lead to destructive ecological management practices."

Blah blah blah
 
>Tristate has a lot of line
>on his reel. Bait must
>be good too. Carry on.
>mtmuley


Interesting perspective. These threads remind me of the nerd that tags along with the jocks in high school.

The jocks get him to do stupid stuff and he thinks he is one of them, it isn't until years later that he realizes they were just using him for their own entertainment.

****I guess some of us have a different idea of who is the jock and who is the shadowing nerd.

Grizzly
 
Long range,

OCt 27th, 3013 was the last day of the hunt. It was a Sunday. Butt's said he took the picture of the buck 12 noon on the 27th. He said the buck was shot in the dark of the night, like 3-4 AM time period. ABOUT 8 or 9 hours hours later after the proposed kill Butts said he took the picture, in Shelbys garage, front hooves hanging, cape on the cement, 30 pack of Keystone, all dried blood everywhere, even after just cutting off the bucks neck a few hours earlier.

Butts is saying all the witnesses are wrong or lying, that saw the buck Sunday morning near the church, afternoon by the church, Monday and tuesday after the hunt.

I'm saying with the evidence that I know about, nothing makes sense except the buck was shot Wednesday Oct. 30th, between 1 AM and 4 AM, because of all the witnesses that saw the buck, Sunday, through Tuesday, some in the very field, that the tire tracks were made, and the bucks hair was found at the U turn, between the tracks in the field.

That means Butts picture was probably taken Thursady or Friday, the buck was shot, WEdnesday, the only day Mon-Friday when their were frost. The truck tracks burned the grass, and you could see the tracks for four months later. The Cape is still pink on Friday, Nov 1st, picture of Shelby holding the buck, I'm saying that is TWO days after the buck was poached. NOT FIVE days after the buck was poached. Because the cape in Shelbys picture isn't frozen and was leaked out. The cape would not have been good if it sat for 6-7 days, unfrozen. Why freeze a monster buck, if it was killed legally?

They are guilty either way. All of them.
 
Greg,
I know exactly how my friends and family will remember me. I am only guilty on this forum. You do not know the half of it.... I'm guilty? coming from a guy who has POACHED a big game animal in Idaho with a Utah tag, that holds absolutely no weight with me. Should I have done some things different? ya, I should have. When the song ended though I could hold my head up high with dignity. Please, someone post a pic. of this deer after oct, 27th 2013?.... most watched deer in northern Utah and not 1 picture. When the proposed kill was a few days after the 27th.
 

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