I asked about the UWC expo tag petition (wow)

E

elk30

Member
Messages
38
So a few friends are around the campfire last weekend talking hunting, THis UWC expo tag subject comes out. its sounds pretty good I better look into this. being the skeptic and not a blind sheep I try to look at this from all angles. the call for transparency by the RMEF is logical. They did it before in AZ when SFW was tring to pull a fast one (in my opinion)
Then I see the UWC and a few guys really run with this! They make all kinds of nooise and call out anyone that has ever done anything in the state of UTah.
I aksed them what is the economic benefit fron the expo tags in the state of Utah. did the 200 tags bring in 20 million to the state of Utah? I was told no by UWC members, They would not tell me how much it did bring in though. pretty important from a business standpoint!
I asked what is the cost to administer these tags? the expo charges $5.00 per tag the state of Utah charges me $10.00 why the difference?
What is the real motive of UWC I think they want to be the next SFW. Make bunch of noise and then try to get in on all the tags in the future by getting the DWR and the toher groups pissed off. Or are they really funded in the background by some anti hunter group? hard to tell they have every conservation group and the DWR at odds with each other. PETA could not have done it better if they had tried.
 
I found this article that help anser that question!

Over 30 million projected to be generated by this expo in 2006 nice ROI by the State of Utah.

Hunting expo expected to boost Utah economy
PrintFont [+] [-]Leave a comment ?Santanu Chakraborty
Deseret Morning News
Published: Thursday, June 1 2006 12:00 a.m. MDT
Summary Apart from luring big-game hunters toward a premium tag, the 2007 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo Jan. 17-20 aims to boost the state's economy by generating a projected $30 million.
Apart from luring big-game hunters toward a premium tag, the 2007 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo Jan. 17-20 aims to boost the state's economy by generating a projected $30 million.

The first-ever joint national hunting and wildlife convention, announced Wednesday, will be organized by the Foundation for North American and Wild Sheep, the Mule Deer Foundation and Sportsmen for Habitat.

"The economic impact of the expo on the local economy will be $10 million," Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. said. "The three conservation groups will be raising $10 million for wildlife conservation, and an additional $10 million in bookings, new business and sales will be generated for and on behalf of the exhibitors in the event."

Talking about his administration's focus on travel and tourism as a genuine growth agent for the economy, the governor said, "The expo will have a great impact on the state's economy."

The event will be the first of five annual hunting expos scheduled to be held in Salt Lake City through 2011. The top attraction of the event will be the drawing for 200 premium Utah hunting permits at the city's Salt Palace Convention Center available to those who appear in person and pay a $5 per hunt application fee.

"The hunting expo has the potential to not only become Utah's largest convention but also one of the largest of its kind anywhere in North America," Huntsman added.

Hunters will have the possibility of drawing more than one tag. However, bonus points would not apply.

"Two hundred of the West's best elk, mule deer, bighorn sheep, moose, mountain goat, bison, cougar, bear and wild turkey will be offered exclusively to those who attend this convention and apply in person," said Byron Bateman, president of the Utah-based Sportsmen for Habitat.

"This is every hunter's dream to apply for all those incredible permits in one location."

The expo will host seminars from world class experts, along with celebrity events, including hunting stories from former Utah Jazz forward Karl Malone and performances by comedian Jeff Foxworthy and country music's Montgomery Gentry.
 
Your post is laughable at best.

If the UWC wanted the tags or their fair share of the tags all they have to do is sue the state for equal fairness. The state would have to give them equal tags. You cannot discriminate anyone when it comes to this crap.

pull your head out of your BUTT

avatar_2528.jpg
 
"If the UWC wanted the tags or their fair share of the tags all they have to do is sue the state for equal fairness. The state would have to give them equal tags. You cannot discriminate anyone when it comes to this crap."

And there it is folks, "fair". You saw it here first. A grown man crying for "fair". Shameful.
 
Give them time,
you seem to have already figured out how to do it.
There must be some kind of process that keeps nothings from ruining everything.

I think you better look into that.

nice intellegent closing statement. GEEEZ
 
If this were corporate america I would say they are executing a hostile takeover, a smear campaign make the state and the other groups look like bad, act like you can save the day then be naieve enough to think you can take over the tags and make more money on them than the other groups did.
What will they try next once this blows over?
I looked into this the state has a 5 year contract on the expo tags will they give up 30+ million a year in economic benefits?It would be totally illogical. UWC is not Don PEay and SFW. you have to come up withyour own ideas to pull off that kind of monumental task. cut and paste will not get it done.
 
Elk30-

Your comments continue to be ignorant and laughable. I doubt that the Expo is generating 30 million in revenue for the state but even if it is, how is requiring the groups to spend some portion of the $5 application fees on actual conservation projects going to disrupt that? These groups can continue to put on the Expo the only difference will be that they will have to spend the majority application fees on actual conservation projects. After all, it is the "Hunting and CONSERVATION Expo." They can still pocket the revenues raised from admissions, booth rentals, food and beverages, and events.

You keep asking is how much it costs to put on the Expo and conduct the drawing process at the Expo. That is great question. However, you are asking the wrong parties. We have been asking those same questions for years. Why don't you direct your inquiry to Don Peay or Miles Moretti, President of the Mule Deer Foundation (?MDF?). Good luck getting a response. I am still waiting to hear what MDF?s official position is on the proposed rule amendment.

You continue to question the ?true motives? of a group of sportsman asking for an accounting of a public resource. It is simple. Listen carefully: (1) the administrative rule that created the Convention Permits expressly states that one of the purposes of the permits is to "generate revenue for wildlife conservation activities;" (2) the state took 200 premium hunting permits out of the public draw and entrusted them to the groups participating in the Expo; (3) these participating groups have been raising several hundred thousand to nearly a million dollars a year from the $5 application fees; (4) there is no requirement whatsoever in the statute that the participating groups spend any of those funds on actual conservation projects; (5) the DWR does not audit how much money is raised from the 200 permits or how the groups spend that money; (6) the participating organizations have refused to provide any information or accounting as to how the revenues generated from the 200 permits have been spent; (7) the DWR, the Wildlife Board and the participating organizations all fail to see any problem with this situation.

Convention Permits are public assets and monies generated from those permits should be carefully accounted for and spent in an open and transparent manner. Do you understand now? This has nothing to do with PETA or the Humane Society. We are all hunters and sportsmen who want to know how our public resources are being used. If everything is on the up and up and MDF and SFW are spending the money on actual ?conservation activities? as stated in the Rule then this should not be a problem.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
"how is requiring the groups to spend some portion of the $5 application fees on actual conservation projects going to disrupt that?"

I allready showed you on the other thread how that can be damaging to hunting and both groups, UWC and SFW. I know it was math and you didn't want to pay attention but the numbers don't lie. Even members out of your own corner have made comments about how driving up prices on hunters drives hunters out of the market. You can't grab at money when you don't know the accounting. GET THE ACCOUNTING FIRST THEN MAYBE START LOOKING AT THE MONEY!

See what you don't understand about the devil is when he is at his best nobody feels his presence. Same goes for an anti-hunter. When he is at his best everybody feels like it was their idea to do the right thing while they gut themselves.
 
You can't grab at money when you don't know the accounting. GET THE ACCOUNTING FIRST THEN MAYBE START LOOKING AT THE MONEY!

And there you have it.
SFW and MDF will not let anyone see the accounting to verify any questions that have been brought up.
Why don't you ask them for their books so you can verify these things and then report back what they're response is?
 
Hawkeye,

Thanks for the input, I guess I am looking at this in a much broader sense. 200 tags to bring in 20-30 million dollars into the state just seems like good business. It seems so logical to know that it costs money to put on an event and that $5.00 is such a small part of the big picture. the DWR charges me 10 and they do not even have to do anything, all the data is inputed by me and some computer in NV does not draw my name out for a tag. yes there are exibitor fees and I doubt they get any revenue from the food sales. but staffing and advertising would have to be expensive.
I just have a hard time thinking logical people cannot see this and being the skeptic that I am it seems there is a much bigger agenda by the UWC.
Maybe they are golden and will never try to get in on the big game conservation or expo tags. somehow I doubt it!

Buttmaster: my grandma told me not to argue with a fool they bring you down to their level. Please dont respond!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 10:20AM (MST)[p]Hawkeye,

Could you provide me with Utah DWR total budget figures please? I think I might be able to help you. Nevermind, just found it. 68 million for 2011. SO lets go on the lowside with 20 million being what the expo raised. The expo in a short amount of time produces %29 of the entire budget of the DWR, in revenue for the state. And they do it with less than 2/10 of %1 of your states wildlife tags. Lets say hypotheticly only %5 of those funds raised went back to the DWR. Wouldn't it make since to give Expo %4 of the total big game tags in the state and they could fund the entire state DWR budget. Sounds more constructive to me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 10:22AM (MST)[p]you know whats laughable is tristate had to make up an alter ego named elk30 to argue his side.
You both are using the same ip address for this same post.

What a beaver
1667bieber-meets-buscemi.jpg



avatar_2528.jpg
 
Guess what. I know you can't believe it but I don't know elk30. I have never met him. Keep grasping at straws.
 
Hawkeye, You continue to say that there is no where SFW shows how that money is being spent. You are a liar. You know as well as anyone that SFW has it on their web sight. You refuse to accept that as the truth. It is there and has been there for a while. You ask for it and you got it. I think you are wanting to become the next Don Peay. Will you could not match a pimple on his butt. UWC wants to be the next SFW. You know as much as everyone does it takes money to do much of anything. Unless you are on welfare, people need money for your services. You can not do it for free or you could not stay in business. UWC does not charge for anything yet they are trying to do everything. No money, they go no where. That is just business. Yes you can volinteer for projects but you can not do projects without money so how are they going to get things done without money??
SFW states on their web sight where the money goes. You are upset that it goes for other things besides big game. Will the money comes from other tags besides big game. Fishing is part of the DWR and money goes to fishing. Some prefer to fish, you prefer to hunt. The DWR is over both. The money also is going to try to repopulate the pheasant population in this state. Sorry that you do not think that is part of the DWR and something people prefer to do. Hawkeye, you are a trouble maker. You are making quite a stir but I know people that signed your petition that now wish they would not have just for the fact that it says no money for preditors. Be real.
 
Given your comments, perhaps you were twins separated at birth.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
SW is just trying to throw people off track. It is not the case. I think he must be an Obama supporter as he uses the same tactics.
 
Maybe so. If thats the case then the world will be in quite a bit of trouble with another person as ugly as me in it.

However did you see how if you put your ball breaking into a different mode you might be able to fund the entire state budget for the DWR.
 
Wow I must be on track or your guys would not be throwing out the personal attacks, I don't know tristate but he does seem to have an open mind and can see the forest through the trees.
sorry you can't except another view point. swbuckmaster / AKA Buttmaster - nice picture of yourself by the way now I understand your IQ or lack their of.. see you grought me down to your level! DARN!!!
its the same old story in life if something is to good to be true it is. good luck suing the state for your fais share of the tags!
Just ell me that UWC is really not interested in getting ahold of any tas in the futre it is all volunteer funded and their is no other motives and I will shut up. Make sure you get it from all the top guys. We don;t want a SFW statement here that says you were not representing them.
 
I wouldn't support any of you, based on the argument/pissing match you've been having the last few days. You are all kind of making the hunting community look silly.
 
Interesting swbuckmaster, Now we really know what you are like. I bet that Hawkeye and Tye are so excited to have you on their side in this fight. You are a true asset to their cause. Like I said, you seem to follow the same tactics as Obama. He is probably excited to have you on his side also.
 
By the way I dont represent any hunting organization. You either hate me or you like me. I honestly dont care either way.

When a guy comes on a hunting forum trolling and gets busted my postings are the only way I see fit to respond to his drivel.


avatar_2528.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 01:33PM (MST)[p]bird "now you know what i'm really like"

I thought my smiling sinister avatar would have been a dead give away.

read post above your last post it explains the childish responses. If you want to get sucked into this stupid troll post go ahead. It might be a fun day yet.

avatar_2528.jpg
 
Time will tell guys.

Lets see how this thing shakes out. My guess is the UWC gang will be knocking down big cosntulting fees within the next 5 years!

I for one see a group that has done nothing for conservation in Utah trying to take credit for an idea the RMEF came up with. ultimately trying to position themselves as something they are not. The conservation groups and the DWR have made us what we are and these guys just want a piece of the pie at the end of the day.
All they are doing from my view is destroying all the hard work and good will that has been accomplished in the name of 5 bucks.

Good luck Buttshot I am sure you and your pet monkey will be just fine.
 
>Sw thanks for posting, made my
>day.


+1 I pissed myself alittle. Thanks SWB!!! LOL
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 11:44AM (MST)[p]Just got back from the dentist and I see the troll(s) had to start their own thread to keep things going and Birdman is now right in there offering his best imitation too! I guess you must have to pass an imbecile test and score a -100 to be one of the members of that group, LOL! Glad I'm not the only ones calling this yahoo out for what he is!
 
"When a guy comes on a hunting forum trolling and gets busted my postings are the only way I see fit to respond to his drivel."

Wait a minute I was closer on topic than you were. %75 of your posts have been nothing more than crude pictures and trash talking. And what did I get "busted" for?
 
IN Post 14 does tristate state that the expo money goes to the DWR. If that is the case you really are an idiot. How much of the expo money goes to the 68 million DWR budget exactly $0.00 let me repeat that NONE of the expo money funds the DWR. Therein lies the problem, we did not sacrifice 200 public tags for the good of the state/citizenry. We sacrificed 200 public tags for the good of two organizations SFW and MDF. I don't know who the new folks are but it is clear they fit the SFW puppet mold very well. Loud mouthed and clueless.
 
Actually Mulepacker I am trying to show a hypothetical where if the UWC could quit focusing on a $5 drop in a bucket they could make a little sacrifice and maybe change some others laws and raise enough money to fund the entire State wildlife budget. However their greed to get back some tags that represent less than %.2 of the total tags in the state has blinded them from doing anything good. Here is the other problem you have missed with the others that are rabid against the SFW. They are also part of the "state/citizenry". They have just as much right to decide the distribution of permits as anyone else in the state does.
 
I rest my case top gun. Time will tell if your a puppet or a consultant.

We will see how common sense and emotion differ.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]Business. See guys, hunting isn't about what our dads and grandpas taught us. It is about business decisions. Best business decisions. If you think the State owns the animals and the residents of the State are the State then you are a socialist. Business at all costs people. Business decisions which take a State asset, with no bid-process, and make a business successful. Just depends on what type of businessman you are. Or better yet, it just depends what kind of lobbyist you are.

Business, yep hunting is a business to guys like Birdman, elk30 and tristate. If you make money off it, why would you ever want to give it up? Solid business model. Lobby the politicians, get an exclusive right to distribute the State's assets, don't pay a dime for that right, and then blame others on the internet. Brilliant business model. And we wonder why our country is in the downward mode. It is all about "business decisions".
 
elk30-

I'm trying to follow you thoughts here and am having a hard time. Are you saying the uwc wants to get rid of the convention tags and ruin the expo with their proposal? Is that why you keep bringing up what the expo brings in revenue to Utah, and why you say 200 tags is nothing compared to that revenue? Just trying to get a handle on what you are trying to say.
 
"Business. See guys, hunting isn't about what our dads and grandpas taught us. It is about business decisions. Best business decisions. If you think the State owns the animals and the residents of the State are the State then you are a socialist. Business at all costs people. Business decisions which take a State asset, with no bid-process, and make a business successful. Just depends on what type of businessman you are. Or better yet, it just depends what kind of lobbyist you are."

Wyoming didn't run their Wildlife office like a business, and guess what????? They are about to be broke. Who suffers most? Wildlife and future generations of sportsmen. Quit worrying about what dad and Grandpa taught you and start worrying whether your kids and grandkids will ever be part of your hunting heritage.


"Business, yep hunting is a business to guys like Birdman, elk30 and tristate. If you make money off it, why would you ever want to give it up?"

The US did not become great by people giving up their companies and income to the public. And contrary to Obamas belief I did build my company.

"Solid business model. Lobby the politicians, get an exclusive right to distribute the State's assets, don't pay a dime for that right, and then blame others on the internet. Brilliant business model. And we wonder why our country is in the downward mode. It is all about "business decisions"."

How is less then %.2 of the total tags in a state "exclusive rights" to the states assets????? If it were an exclusive right you would be buying any tag or license you wanted directly from SFW no matter what.
 
Wuffie,
I am saying whether they realise it or not UWC is destroying the expo and conservation efforts in Utah, I am not in the hunting industry and certainly don't make any money off it. contrary I spend far to much enjoying it. never bought a big game tag, doubt I ever will! I have kids and grandkids that I want to be able to see what I see on the mtn, if these yahoos keep it up I fear they will destroy what we have and well be shooting rag horn herd bulls in a few years. like in the mid 70's because the state is tired of the squeeky wheel while these no bodoys keep ruining what they have built. And yet I see a big game model that has created some of the best trophy hunting in the country. now I see these guys ruining it over a $5.00 fee for some unkown agenda. I have read guys in their group say give me the 200 tags I will make more money off them than the 1 million that is assumed. what about the economic benefits to our state? can this guy make up another 20 or 30 million, it is all so short sided.
have the leaders of UWC post they have no interest in getting in on this piece of the pie and I will shut up.
until then I think the leaders and their little monkey are a risk to our hunting future.
 
Thank you Buttmaster, best wishes to you and your little monkey! go easy on him.
Darn brought me down to your level again.
 
Tristate - your argument about SFW and MDF only taking less than 2% of the states tags is flawed. The 200 convention permits do NOT include general buck deer tags. The 200 convention tags are premier limited entry tags. SFW and MDF are essentially being given public assets with no strings attached, which in my mind is nothing more than public welfare. In addition, allocating the 90% percent of the revenue generated from the tags will do nothing to the expo. What it will do is ensure that the money goes back on the ground in UTAH rather than into the pockets of say Mr. Peay for his so called "consulting fee" that he now charges SFW. You preach about the socialist mindset of UWC however you haven't even considered the welfare slush fund given to SFW and MDF which his taken from you and me. Which is more socialist?
 
All I see is the emotional part of all of us that want to draw a tag being used against us by this group. what would the odds change by ? maybe 1% in the actual draws? I do not know how much it costs to process each of those applications, the DWR charges $10.00 for each. I have only been to 1 SFW event and a few MDF events over the years. But I do see some group busting up the sportman groups in our state faster than any anti Hunter group could.
from a business stand point the expo tags are a brilliant move by the state it helps pay for the welfare crowd sending out goofy pictures and the higher education that we hope all of our kids get a chance to benefit from (with our help). From an anti hunter ploy UWC is the most efficient yet!
Show me what they have done for conservation how did they raise the money to do it if they did anything. where were they in the past at all the rack meeting or big game board meetings.
Something just flat out stinks!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12
>AT 12:40?PM (MST)
>
>Business. See guys, hunting isn't
>about what our dads and
>grandpas taught us. It
>is about business decisions.
>Best business decisions. If
>you think the State owns
>the animals and the residents
>of the State are the
>State then you are a
>socialist. Business
>at all costs people.
>Business decisions which take a
>State asset, with no bid-process,
>and make a business successful.
> Just depends on what
>type of businessman you are.
> Or better yet, it
>just depends what kind of
>lobbyist you are.
>
>Business, yep hunting is a business
>to guys like Birdman, elk30
>and tristate. If you
>make money off it, why
>would you ever want to
>give it up? Solid
>business model. Lobby the
>politicians, get an exclusive right
>to distribute the State's assets,
>don't pay a dime for
>that right, and then blame
>others on the internet.
>Brilliant business model. And
>we wonder why our country
>is in the downward mode.
> It is all about
>"business decisions".


Well stated!
 
Just sayin......

? Many trolls find it amusing to pose as new members of forums or chat rooms -- also known as newbies -- and ask clueless questions until the discussion collapses as a result. These trolls often attempt to present themselves in a sympathetic light. The goal here is to encourage others to start flinging insults. The troll can then point to the other person and accuse him or her of being unfair or mean while maintaining the role of innocent victim.

? Some trolls don't use subtlety at all and go straight for insults. These trolls are easy to spot, as they come right out of the gate with inflammatory language. For example, a troll visiting a message board about Star Wars might create a thread that says "Star Trek Rocks! Star Wars Bites!" The goal isn't to actually start a debate or conversation -- instead the troll just wants to encourage Star Wars fans to lose their tempers and post angry messages.

? Sneaky trolls will sometimes pose as people who are genuinely interested in the topic before posting a message that undermines the discussion. This is common in political forums -- a person with opposing views might pretend to be sympathetic to other members in the community while simultaneously posting messages and threads that criticize their point of view. For example, the troll might say, "I really like Politician X, but do you think she's really strong on domestic policy?" The goal of this troll is to foment doubt within the community at large. Trolls who pose under a false identity are also known as sock puppets.

? Colluding trolls are people who work together to create chaos. One member might use classic trolling tactics while the others pose as normal members of the online community. These trolls in disguise can publicly defend the obvious troll and claim that the troll is really trying to add to the discussion. Another tactic is to pit one online community against another. Trolls do this by posting messages within one community while posing as members of the other one and vice versa. The goal here is to cause an all-out online war between two victimized communities.
 
>All I see is the emotional
>part of all of us
>that want to draw a
>tag being used against us
>by this group. what would
>the odds change by ?
>maybe 1% in the actual
>draws? I do not know
>how much it costs to
>process each of those applications,
>the DWR charges $10.00 for
>each. I have only been
>to 1 SFW event and
>a few MDF events over
>the years. But I do
>see some group busting up
>the sportman groups in our
>state faster than any anti
>Hunter group could.
>from a business stand point the
>expo tags are a brilliant
>move by the state it
>helps pay for the welfare
>crowd sending out goofy pictures
>and the higher education that
>we hope all of our
>kids get a chance to
>benefit from (with our help).
>From an anti hunter ploy
>UWC is the most efficient
>yet!
>Show me what they have done
>for conservation how did they
>raise the money to do
>it if they did anything.
>where were they in the
>past at all the rack
>meeting or big game board
>meetings.
>Something just flat out stinks!

You ma'am, are moron!
 
"Tristate - your argument about SFW and MDF only taking less than 2% of the states tags is flawed. The 200 convention permits do NOT include general buck deer tags. The 200 convention tags are premier limited entry tags."

Actually go back and read. It is less than .2%. Two tenths of one percent. And it is actually less than that. I could not find record of total, antelope, cougar, goat or bison permits issued in Utah. It is less than a drop in the bucket.

Now back to your point. You have decided that these are different because they are the limited entry tags. Well please expand on that and let me know how that is different. Is one hunting and the other not?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 02:23PM (MST)[p]So battleborn, pretty much anyone you no likey could fall under your blanket definition of a troll. Just puting a stamp on something doesn't resolve the issues here. Many people here are trying to talk about a specific problem and you are trying to define a noun.

By the way, damn near every single poster on the last few threads could fall under your last post somewhere.
 
Tri, I want to personally thank you for your comments, and I promise you I will give them due consideration.

* How to spot a troll Usually it is very difficult to tell the difference between a troll and somebody who is simply an axxhole or an idiot. It is important to note that a troll doesn't always resort to insults. Some of them pretend to hold ideals that are unpopular on a particular website or forum. For example, if one signs up for a forum that is predominately pro-choice and pretends to be pro-life and makes posts in favour of that position that alone could get the same result as just insulting everybody. The best way to spot a troll is to take into consideration how long its posts are. If its posts are short then more than likely you are dealing with a troll. A good troll also doesn't show any signs of anger in their posts so it would be best to keep an eye out for that too. On social networking sites it is much easier to spot trolls. The first way is to look at their profile: if the user has no picture of him/herself then it is most likely a troll. It's also useful to take a look at how old the user's account is. The newer the account is, the more likely it is that they are a troll. Also if this user has contacted you directly on your own page as opposed to a group you are a member of then take that as a tell-tale sign.

* Alternative ways to deal with trolls if you really have to respond to a troll don't post long comments. Try to make your responses as short and concise as possible; it's often best to use exceptionally bland wording such as "Thank you for your comments, which we shall give due consideration." Your main objective here is to disarm the troll's chances of getting an emotional response from other users which will make it give up its attempts. This method is not fool-proof and can achieve the opposite results depending on the troll and how you go about doing this.
 
"Actually go back and read. It is less than .2%. Two tenths of one percent. And it is actually less than that. I could not find record of total, antelope, cougar, goat or bison permits issued in Utah. It is less than a drop in the bucket.

Now back to your point. You have decided that these are different because they are the limited entry tags. Well please expand on that and let me know how that is different. Is one hunting and the other not?"

Tristate - Is a Henry Mountains deer tag the same as a Kamas general season deer tag? Would you be willing to pay $5 per application to draw a Kamas deer tag or Spike Bull tag? The point is these tags are not just a "drop in the bucket" as you suggest because many of us have been applying for decades for these tags. Then you add all the conservation tags and you see that the system has just gone too far.

Back to the point, what is wrong with requiring that 90% of the revenue generated from the convention tags going back to the ground in UTAH? It is the same requirement of the conservation tags. The expo will still be well intended and I would argue that more people would apply for the tags knowing that their money is not going to line the pockets of a few individuals.

You never address my other point concerning SFW and MDF basically having a public welfare slush fund. Public assets owned by the public should not go to private "consulting fees" of a very select few with no strings attached. This public welfare given to SFW and MDF is what is troubling, especially when there is absolutely no accounting or transparency to see where the nearly 1 million dollars is going.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 03:05PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 03:03?PM (MST)

>Wuffie,
>I am saying whether they realise
>it or not UWC is
>destroying the expo and conservation
>efforts in Utah, I am
>not in the hunting industry
>and certainly don't make any
>money off it. contrary I
>spend far to much enjoying
>it. never bought a big
>game tag, doubt I ever
>will! I have kids and
>grandkids that I want to
>be able to see what
>I see on the mtn,
>if these yahoos keep it
>up I fear they will
>destroy what we have and
>well be shooting rag horn
>herd bulls in a few
>years. like in the mid
>70's because the state is
>tired of the squeeky wheel
>while these no bodoys keep
>ruining what they have built.
>And yet I see a
>big game model that has
>created some of the best
>trophy hunting in the country.
>now I see these guys
>ruining it over a $5.00
>fee for some unkown agenda.
>I have read guys in
>their group say give me
>the 200 tags I will
>make more money off them
>than the 1 million that
>is assumed. what about the
>economic benefits to our state?
>can this guy make up
>another 20 or 30 million,
>it is all so short
>sided.
>have the leaders of UWC post
>they have no interest in
>getting in on this piece
>of the pie and I
>will shut up.
>until then I think the leaders
>and their little monkey are
>a risk to our hunting
>future.

The UWC has NO interest, whatsoever, in "getting in on this piece
of the pie" or "destroying" the expo.

The expo can go on, the tags can remain. The proposal is only in regards to earmarking the funds to go back to wildlife. This is simply about transparency and accountability.

There are dozens of expos/shows that exist and are profitable in Utah that don't require public funds to exist. This one should be no different.

If it they can show that it takes a percentage of the funds to administrate the draw, then that can be discussed, but simply having the tags there attracts a ton of business.

I'd the Wager that the ISE/South Town Expo would be more than happy to have the attraction of these tags, just for the incentive for participants.

Your turn......

Thanks

Tye Boulter
President
United Wildlife Cooperative


http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
I am new and am not a troll. I will be attending the meeting at the DWR office and show my support for more open accounting for the Expo Tags. What we need is an accounting of the money from those tags and where it is helping our wildlife. I don't think those in favor of this are asking too much or out to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.
 
"Tristate - Is a Henry Mountains deer tag the same as a Kamas general season deer tag?"

Yes. Both are hunting tags where stand a reasonable chance of killing a deer.

"Would you be willing to pay $5 per application to draw a Kamas deer tag or Spike Bull tag?"

Yes. Five dollars for the opportunity at a deer or even a spike elk is a steel.

"The point is these tags are not just a "drop in the bucket" as you suggest because many of us have been applying for decades for these tags. Then you add all the conservation tags and you see that the system has just gone too far."

For the majority of hunters they can save money and buy at an auction faster than they can stack up bonus points.

"Back to the point, what is wrong with requiring that 90% of the revenue generated from the convention tags going back to the ground in UTAH?"

I explained that earlier. There may be nothing wrong with taking %90 of those funds but you don't know that because you don't know what the five dollars pays for now. You can't make those decisions until the numbers are analized.

" It is the same requirement of the conservation tags."

It is still apples and oranges.

" The expo will still be well intended and I would argue that more people would apply for the tags knowing that their money is not going to line the pockets of a few individuals."

You could be right and you could be just as easily wrong. It is hard to find where the breakover point between profit and loss when predicting people's behavior.

"You never address my other point concerning SFW and MDF basically having a public welfare slush fund. Public assets owned by the public should not go to private "consulting fees" of a very select few with no strings attached. This public welfare given to SFW and MDF is what is troubling, especially when there is absolutely no accounting or transparency to see where the nearly 1 million dollars is going."

Sorry I thought I had made that clear earlier. It is not welfare. Yall have decided this is a public resource. The SFW is made up of the public also. They get a voice where the tags go just as you do. I would hazard a guess that those two groups are made up of more than %.2 of the hunters in Utah but the state is only allowing them less than %.2 of the tags.
 
Kandrew, I am sorry to inform you but under Battleborn's identification tables for locating a troll, you allready are one.

Just for the record I don't believe you are though.
 
Did the UWC add the language this money could not be used for predator control or supplemental feeding to the existing conservation tag contract?

Would a true hunting group add this? after all this is what set me off in the first place.
now its getting fun to hear a bunch of empotional nut jobs that think they will draw a tag if the 200 are put back. never mind they are undermining 20 or 30 million dollars from the Utah economy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 03:25PM (MST)[p]The proposal doesn't ask for any of the tags to be pulled from the expo.

Additionally, the stipulations for predator control, supplemental feeding and depredation is language set forth by the division and AG's office when they drafted the conservation permit rule, which this mirrors.

Tye


http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Speaking for myself, I am not emotional at all. I just want to see SFW more open on where they spend the money. I don't want the tags to go back into the general draw, just want to know what they are doing with the cash they are getting. The EXPO is great, the additional opportunity to draw a tag is another way of hunting a premium spot without a huge cash outlay, and I like to gamble once in a while. Keep the money coming to Utah- just have a better accounting of what is being done with the funds received.
 
2 point thanks,

I have been looking for that for 2 days. its good to see the economic impact is 7 million dollars dont you agree?
now were can I find the conservation tag contract that was copied and pasted for UWC? I would like to see if the DWR had the original wording stating none of the conservation money can be used for predator control or supplemental feeding.

Hey actually getting answers to legit questions.

one more what does UWC think the cost is for each of the applications? the DWR charges me $10.00 each year to tell me I did not draw. my moose or deer.

I still have not heard if UWC wants to sue the DWR for their fair share of the tags and if the leadership is in it for the long term money/consulting fees. or if they are really just a watchdog group looking out for the average Joe and donating their time.
I think they have a pretty good lawyer just a couple of guys that sit out side yelling at each other NO YOU DA MAN!
 
What you sighted and what elk30 sighted are two different things.
"7 million of economic impact" is not a gross. In fact I am not sure what that term is. Sounds like a spin number and not something an accountant would use. I am not proclaiming elk30's numbers to be fact either, but the IRS wouldn't take your numbers to trial for sure.
 
Kandrew I agree with you as well. never said I did not want to know where SFW spends its cash. We need to know how it is accounted for. I drop my $5.00 per tag every year for several tags and play the odds. i look at it as a second chance to my usual no chance in the yearly DWR draws.
 
If any of you want to know about the expo tags ask me. I will gladly meet you IN PERSON to discuss anything you want to about the expo and the tags. Those of you that are new I helped create the expo and the tags. So you will be getting factual info from one of the 3 people that made the expo and tags happen. The reason it needs to be in person is so you know I am real and not a troll and that I will know you are real and not a troll.

If you are not willing to do this then you need not comment because this post is only for those that are willing to meet in person to discuss.

Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 04:41PM (MST)[p]elk30 said: "now were can I find the conservation tag contract that was copied and pasted for UWC? I would like to see if the DWR had the original wording stating none of the conservation money can be used for predator control or supplemental feeding."

Elk30, I posted that information for you yesterday. See Post 45 in the other thread. You apprently failed to take the time to read it. The Administrative Rule that created and governs the Conservation Permits (Auction Permits) contains language outlining what the 90% retained revenues can and cannot be used for. See http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r657/r657-041.htm#T9. R657-41-9, entitled "Conservation Permit Funds and Reporting" spells out the requirements and limitations that apply to those funds. Subsection 5(b)(v) provides that "retained revenue shall not be used on any project that is inconsistent with division policy, including feeding programs, depredation management, or predator control."

As several people have explained to you on multiple occasions, the requirements and limitations that we are asking to have applied to the Convention Permits already exist in the Conservation Permit rule. That language was drafted by the DWR and agreed to by the DWR and the conservation groups. Your suggestions that we inserted that language because we are anti-hunters is ridiculous. Rather than attempting to create an entirely new set of rules, we are simply asking the DWR and the conservation groups to apply the same protections that they have already agreed with regard to the Conservation Permits.

I hope this answers your question and demonstrates that you have "actually been getting answers to legit questions" the entire time. You either have not been listening or you weren't getting the answers you wanted.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Questions:

1. Does all of the proceeds of the expo tags go to the SFW and MDF organizations or just the $5.00 application fee?

2. What is the problem, (i)the $5.00 fee being un accounted for, (ii) all of the proceeds being un accounted for or, (iii) 200 tags are taken from the general draw?

If it is just that the $5.00 fee is unaccounted for, then I belive you are making a mountain out of a mole hill in the grand scheme of things. As someone else stated, it's better than paying $10 and these organizations need something to keep them afloat.


P.S. I am not a troll, so please no ad hominem attacks

Arroyo
 
"Its owner said Jenny's "transsexual" situation happened after a foxes' attack and all the hens were eaten."

So SW......did the fox eat the hens, or did the fox just attack but the hens were actually eaten by the Italians for supper?
 
>
>I still have not heard if
>UWC wants to sue the
>DWR for their fair share
>of the tags and if
>the leadership is in it
>for the long term money/consulting
>fees. or if they
>are really just a watchdog
>group looking out for the
>average Joe and donating their
>time.
>


elk30, this was answered in post #61. might want to go back and re-read it.
 
Arroyo,

For me, the issue is that MDF and SFW are getting a public resource (200) tags and using the tags they are generating almost $ 1,000,000. I would like to see a good accounting of the money. So it is the 200 tags, the $5 app fee (almost $1,000,000 total) with little to no accounting. If those groups are using the money generated from the 200 tags for conservation (one of the listed goals of the expo) then there should be an accounting of the money. The public should know what they are getting for their 200 tags.
 
Elk30 stated in post 48:
"have the leaders of UWC post they have no interest in getting in on this piece of the pie and I will shut up."


The UWC president (Tree) did that in post #61 above so now you can keep your word.

(posts 48 and 61 are sandwiched above between posts 42 and 43)
 
It is really interesting to hear how the $5 dollars for application money is not accounted for. It has been for a month or more on the SFW web sight. It was put there by those of you wanting to see where the money went. Problem is the anti SFW people say it is not there or that it is not the truth. So you have to decide for your self who is telling the truth but don't say SFW is not posting the money because they are. Now don't forget, the $800,000 is split two ways, meaning SFW is getting $400,000. Now the expenses need to come out of that. The state says that it takes $10 dollars and uses it all. $4 going to Nevada and $6 going to those who have to keep track of what is going on. So by the time you take out the expenses there is not as much left as you want there to be. But then again, there has to be tons of money.
 
Birdman,

I will admit that I have been accused more than once of being slow. Can you please post a link where a person can see an accounting of the Convention Tag Money. Show me a true and accurate accounting of the money and I will stop asking for it. To be clear I listed MDF first because I think they have been given a pass where SFW has been dragged over the coals on this issue. They are equal partners and are therefore carry equal responsibility.
 
So tye. You are speaking for UWC and stating you are not interested in the big game tags,does that include the convention and conservation tags. So you want nothing?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 06:34PM (MST)[p]Birdman---I know your intentions are noble, but those numbers have nothing to do with the one million dollars we are talking about that is being earned by the $5 fee per raffle ticket being charged. It would appear that may be money made by booth rentals, etc., but all that it is showing is where they have used a fraction of the total proceeds made at the Expo. Sorry, but I've already looked at every page I can get to on that website and nowhere is there anything like you are stating. Also, you keep mentioning tax statements being posted on the website and Randy Newberg, a CPA, has told you several times that tax returns are not how an organization can prove they are legit because of what they are not required to show by the IRS. Until such time as all the number are shown, I still have to call baloney on their elk showing they are putting 89% of their earnings back into their mission statement.
 
Bird thanks for the link.
Is it up to Utah's wildlife to fight the wolf battle for the rest of the west?? Is it up to Utah's wildlife to fill hotel rooms??
Is it up to Utah's wildlife subsidize the party for 2 Orgs??

Over half a million since 08 has been spent on the wolf wars. How much of that was spent lobbying AGAINST Simpson / Tester?? How much of that seeded BGF??

Hey if MDF and SFW can have these tags why can't the local Jiffy Lube go get a few and let you apply if you go in for an oil change?? It's the same thing!!


2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Scottie--you are killing us!!

To damn funny Photo posts....

Has anyone taken the time to research, yeh--pay the $49.95...and see who actually OWN's the Expo??

The focus has been 'funnelled' to the Con. Org.$ involved....

If it is soooooo great for the SLC economy---

Why not have the busn's that benefit from the Ex-Scam-PO front the 'prizes'...??

Like ........

200 free rooms...

200 free car rental's....

200 free meals....

200 free ski passes....

200 free 'Asian Massages'.....

200 free Raffle tix to the Full Scam Curl Society....

200 free No sales tax on purchases....

Simply Apply, $5.00, via On-Line and then show up to 'Validate' and it will be great!!!

Seeing as the 200 Ex-Scam-PO tags do nothing in return for wildlife nor habitat (sic)....

Let all the Benefactors of the Ex-Scam-PO foot the Freebies @ $5.00 a pop to 'apply'...

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 10:06PM (MST)[p]wileywapiti stated - "Over half a million since 08 has been spent on the wolf wars. How much of that was spent lobbying AGAINST Simpson / Tester?? How much of that seeded BGF??

Jackpot! Someone is good at analyzing internal accounting reports.

What consultant do you suppose got paid a large chunk of that money? Wolf delisting, LLC?

To anyone who has the first clue about accounting, that link Birdman provided is laugh out loud material. My eight year-old niece can provide that level of accounting for her lunch money.



"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 08:19PM (MST)[p]"Is a Henry Mountains deer tag the same as a Kamas general season deer tag?
Tristate said,
Yes. Both are hunting tags where stand a reasonable chance of killing a deer."

Tristate you lose credibility when you make comments like the above. You answer is the same as equating a Cesna 180 to an F-16 or a Ford Focus to Mercedes Benz SL 500 just because they both transport people from point A to point B. You know as well as I do that a Henry's tag is far more coveted than Kamas general season buck tag. To say otherwise is laughable.


"Would you be willing to pay $5 per application to draw a Kamas deer tag or Spike Bull tag?"
Tristate said,
Yes. Five dollars for the opportunity at a deer or even a spike elk is a steel.

The question should have been posed a paying $5 for a chance at drawing one of the these tags. If they are such a steal, then why are there not at least 1 of each of these tags included in the auction? Nobody is going to gamble $5 on a hunt they can buy over-the-counter.



"The point is these tags are not just a "drop in the bucket" as you suggest because many of us have been applying for decades for these tags. Then you add all the conservation tags and you see that the system has just gone too far."
Tristate said,
For the majority of hunters they can save money and buy at an auction faster than they can stack up bonus points.

What majority are you talking about Tristate? $7500 for a Wasatch Elk tag may be peanuts to some, but certainly not a majority of hunters.

"Back to the point, what is wrong with requiring that 90% of the revenue generated from the convention tags going back to the ground in UTAH?"
Tristate said,
I explained that earlier. There may be nothing wrong with taking %90 of those funds but you don't know that because you don't know what the five dollars pays for now. You can't make those decisions until the numbers are analized.

I'm glad you see the need for transparency and accounting.

" It is the same requirement of the conservation tags."
Tristate said,
It is still apples and oranges.

How is it apples and oranges? I don't like or agree with a UTAH public resource paying for the rest of the west's problems. Put the money back on the ground in UTAH.


"You never address my other point concerning SFW and MDF basically having a public welfare slush fund. Public assets owned by the public should not go to private "consulting fees" of a very select few with no strings attached. This public welfare given to SFW and MDF is what is troubling, especially when there is absolutely no accounting or transparency to see where the nearly 1 million dollars is going."
Tristate said,
Sorry I thought I had made that clear earlier. It is not welfare. Yall have decided this is a public resource. The SFW is made up of the public also. They get a voice where the tags go just as you do. I would hazard a guess that those two groups are made up of more than %.2 of the hunters in Utah but the state is only allowing them less than %.2 of the tags.


How is it not welfare. Private groups are getting a public resource for FREE. No strings attached, no accounting, no transparency, no nothing. The state is giving them tags and basically saying do what you want. Why should there not be a requirement that 90% of the money go back to conservation projects in UTAH? Simple question.
 
Birdman-

Thanks for the link but that document is not an accounting of the funds raised from $5 application fees. BigFin's comments are right on point.

I would also like to point out that when I have asked SFW leaders about the revenues from the $5 application fees I have been told that SFW does not segregate those funds from other monies or track how those funds are spent. I was told that SFW deposits those funds in its general account and spends them like any other funds.

Based upon these statements, and based upon my review of the supposed accounting, I believe that document was created in response to the public's cry for an actual accounting. My guess is that SFW leaders generated a list of ANY projects that were funded with monies other than the 90% retained revenues from Conservation Permits. In other words, that is a list of projects funded with any money other than Conservation Project revenues. That would include admissions to the Expo, booth rentals, food and beverages, events, banquet money, membership dues, general donations, etc.

If you look at the Conservation Permit Rule, the conservation groups are required to segregate those funds in a separate account and they are earmarked for approved projects. Conservation Permit funds are also carefully accounted for and the public can see how those funds are spent. That is what we are asking for with the Convention Permits.

The alleged accounting provided by SFW is a far cry from what the public is asking for.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Tristate/elk30 - I have read and re-read your posts. It must be the country boy in me, but I can't understand the logic at all. While I applaud your enthusiasm to fight for what you believe in (and you have every right to do so) I don't really understand what your trying to get across. I have been on both sides of the fence. I can tell you that there are good people in the SFW organization that are in it for the wildlife and not the handouts. Obviously, I think that there are those that are in it for the hunts and "prestige". I also know several UWC members including some of the founding members. They are what they say they are. In it for the wildlife and the average Joe. Prior to joining them in their wildlife endeavor I did my research. I had a lot of questions and I did not want to belong to a group that was so focused on raising money that they lost focus on the whole reason they were doing what there were doing. I strongly believe that SFW has done and will more than likely continue to do a lot for conservation in Utah and other states. I, however, feel that enough is enough when it comes to the quantity of conservation tags that are doled out to the highest bidder. I think I can talk about this because I was one who padded my pocketbook on a few of those conservation tags. I have also participated in the draws for the 200 expo tags. I have "donated" tens of thousands of dollars out of my own pocket over the years in the name of wildlife (and I'm NOT a wealthy guy). I strongly feel that if you are entrusted with a public resource then you should be held to a higher standard of accountability for those resources and the revenue they generate. I also believe that hunting expos in the West can survive without the fluff of these added tags. Sportsman in general are going to support those companies that make their hunts more enjoyable. The expo for me is a place to see people that I only get to see once year. I would imagine that there are a few out there that share these same feelings. All UWC is calling for is full accountability to we, as sportsman, can see what our dollars are supporting. I think most realize that it takes a lot of money to put on these expos. That's why it's $1500 + for a 10x10 booth space, tens of thousands of dollars for sponsorship packages, $50 per person to get into the auctions, $25 per person per day to get into the expo ($15 if you get the coupon). I'm not a numbers guy but I do like to know where my money is being spent.

You have your oppions and everyone else has theirs. It's a beautiful country we live in isn't it?! You don't have to agree with my oppinion, and I don't have to agree with yours. I have got to know several people on these forums over the years that I consider friends. We share similar views on certain things and are at opposite ends of the stick on others. This whole issue is about accountability of a public resource and promises that were made that should have been kept long ago. And by the way, UWC was an advocate of accountablity long before RMEF started blowing their horn. That was the one of the original reasons they started this quality organization. Sorry this was so long. I hesitated in writing it in the first place. Have at me. I have really thick skin. :)


It's always an adventure!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-12 AT 10:31PM (MST)[p]I think your dealing with two 5%'rs

example:

5178birdman_in_his_prime.jpg



5% of the population falls below 70 on IQ tests. The severity of the mental retardation is commonly broken into 4 levels:

50-70 - Mild mental retardation (85%)
35-50 - Moderate mental retardation (10%)
20-35 - Severe mental retardation (4%)
IQ < 20 - Profound mental retardation (1%)


None of man?s great accomplishments would have been possible without his intelligence, particularly his ability to engage in abstract reasoning. This is why I try and teach with photos instead.

This is a fork
1691fork.jpg




















avatar_2528.jpg
 
"Tristate you lose credibility when you make comments like the above. You answer is the same as equating a Cesna 180 to an F-16 or a Ford Focus to Mercedes Benz SL 500 just because they both transport people from point A to point B. You know as well as I do that a Henry's tag is far more coveted than Kamas general season buck tag. To say otherwise is laughable."

I don't loose credibility you do. I look like a hunter who knows the joy is in the game. You look like a greedy brat that only cares about inches of antler.

"The question should have been posed a paying $5 for a chance at drawing one of the these tags. If they are such a steal, then why are there not at least 1 of each of these tags included in the auction? Nobody is going to gamble $5 on a hunt they can buy over-the-counter."

I often over pay at auctions for things. That is why it is a charity. You give. I know that is hard to imagine but for many that is their ideal. What is another $5 out of my pocket to do something I would do anyway? Its still a great deal.

"What majority are you talking about Tristate? $7500 for a Wasatch Elk tag may be peanuts to some, but certainly not a majority of hunters."

Hey man $7500 buck isn't peanuts, but all it takes is sacrifice. I am learning that is a hard word for most here. If you want something start saving. How many years is it taking to draw that tag right now? Lets say my anual income was the national average of 27K. I could buy that tag in under 5 years I bet.

"I'm glad you see the need for transparency and accounting."

I have been saying I want that from the beginning, but we can not grab at money at the same time we are trying to look where the money is going. Again thats just being greedy.

"How is it apples and oranges? I don't like or agree with a UTAH public resource paying for the rest of the west's problems. Put the money back on the ground in UTAH."

Fair enough opinion but that doesn't mean its not apples and oranges.

How is it not welfare. Private groups are getting a public resource for FREE. No strings attached, no accounting, no transparency, no nothing. The state is giving them tags and basically saying do what you want. Why should there not be a requirement that 90% of the money go back to conservation projects in UTAH? Simple question.

Because the private groups are comprised citezens who are voters no different than you. They are part of that public trust yall talk about. They have just as much right as any of you to decide the fate of yall's public resource, and this is what they have negotiated. Why can't you get it in your head they are equal to you? As for your %90 how do you ask for a specific percent of something you claim you don't know the specifics of? No one makes a business decision that way. And yes peoples jobs could be on the line with this one. I know you don't care about someone elses employment if they get in the way of you having .01% chance more of drawing your big deer tag but they are people too. Its putting the cart in front of the horse. Simple answer.
 
"All UWC is calling for is full accountability to we, as sportsman, can see what our dollars are supporting."

If this was all they wanted I doubt I would have ever had a single negative post but the truth is they want more than that. They want control over how the dollars are spent. Their first step is the $5 grab in this petition.
 
you may know a thing or 2 about a thing or 2 but by that statement right there you have no idea what you're talking about. Thanks for verifying that. It's just your oppinion, not at all based on fact.


It's always an adventure!!!
 

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