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slamdunk

slamdunk

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10,396
7thgenmt-
Thank you for validating the perfect example of "ignorance".
Your speculations of me simply breed your ignorance in what's even going on here.
#1- I am definitely not "high class".
I have never made over 70K a year in a combined income between my regular job and my guiding. I drive a 1999 Ford Super Duty and an '04 Jeep Wrangler. I also live in a rented 2000 square foot house in a very ordinary neighborhood. I guide anywhere between 3-5 hunts a year for a measly $1000 a week, so don't tell ME i am "prospering" off YOUR wildlife!
I guide on private land hunts that are leased from either ranchers or Indian Lands, neither are open to YOU for opportunity!
Before you go flapping your jaws on speculations about people whom you are accusing of theft, maybe you should do a little more homework.
#2- I have not personally killed a buck in Utah in over 10 years and the last elk i killed was a spike bull in Strawberry about 15 years ago, so don't be thinking i am "successful" there either. I guide because i love to hunt trophy animals. I can never afford a tag like that nor will i ever live long enough to draw one, therefore guiding gives me those opportunities year in and year out to harvest 200" deer and 400" bulls, i just don't get to bring them home with me.
90% of the animals that Mossback take are on public land. There are FAR more tags offered to the public than what any outfitter gets, yet you both share the same exact opportunity to havest that "Spider Bull", regardless of the excuses you continue to make otherwise. Those auction tags put more money back into wildlife in one year than all of your general tags will do in a lifetime. I'll never change your mind, therfore i'll stop wasting my morning trying to do so.
What i do for a profession and how much i "prosper" are absolutely NONE of your business anyway. I'll bet your vehicles and home are more "high class" than mine.......good day.




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slamdunk. you just dont get it, i fell bad for you,i (can never afford a tad nor will i ever long enough to draw one, } think about that, every tag sold cost a gen hunter his chance,
 
I guess the other one got nuked. Slamdunk, i have a similar life to you asset wise. There are just some people who won't understand that it's ok to exceed in life. While you and i are trying to figure out how to enjoy the woods with what we have, others want what they can't have. There are lots of tags that i cant have, and that just makes me try harder in life to get them. Kind of like having something to aspire too. What everyone doesnt realize is that there are numerous record book animals living in much less desirable units across the west and most likely in units in every ones state. Instead of going and looking harder in these units for some of these animals, several would rather scream and complain that they cant get readily available tags in the best units where little scouting is required. I found in arizona that if i drew some of the most undesirable units that people were laughing at, i still could find a few bulls over 380 to hunt by just looking way harder. There are some people that will never get it , and fortunately you do get it. Thanks slamdunk for getting it.
 
"every tag sold cost a gen hunter his chance,"


No it didn't. Now all he has to do is go buy it.
Elkun, did you go big game hunting last year? How could you when you didn't have a chance?????
 
>slamdunk. you just dont get it,
>i fell bad for you,i
>(can never afford a tad
> nor will i ever
>long enough to draw one,
>} think about that, every
>tag sold cost a gen
>hunter his chance,

elkun, YOU don't get it nor did you listen to my post!
The cost i was referring to the price for the hunts i guide. I will never afford a 20k elk hunt on private land. So tell me elkun, how does that affect YOU????
And thanks anyway, but i don't need your sympathy....no need to "fell bad for me"
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LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-13 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]Thanks Coues!

7thgenmt and elkun.....do you guys also complain to airlines for offering 1st class seating? I mean C'mon, those "rich guys" are paying for the seat right in the front of the same plane going to the same place, presenting the same opportunity that you get.
Enjoy your free pretzels! ;-)




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you tell us about it taxie boy,pepole like you and slamdunk dont have a clue, what real hunting is, ill bet you guys take every hunting manazine on the market'go to every sports show just so you can fell like one of the boys,,,
 
>you tell us about it taxie
>boy,pepole like you and
>slamdunk dont have a clue,
>what real hunting is, ill
>bet you guys take every
>hunting manazine on the market'go
>to every sports show just
>so you can fell like
>one of the boys,,,

LMAO.....is that all ya got??
I haven't attended a hunting expo in two years, i'm just not one of those "pepole".
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"you tell us about it taxie boy,pepole like you and slamdunk dont have a clue, what real hunting is, ill bet you guys take every hunting manazine on the market'go to every sports show just so you can fell like one of the boys,,,"


Soooooo not only does your fiscal status determine whether you are a "real Hunter", but now whether we read hunting magazines or attend a sports show will decide who is qualified to be "real hunters. Rrrrrrrrriiiiiiight....

By those standards all you have to be is an illiterate bum who fears public places and you are in the running for "hunter of the year" according to elkun. Elkun, hunting isn't a competition for me. Most things aren't now. I made it past 18 years old. Don't you think its time for you to. I don't wake up every morning hoping some classwarfare welfare crybaby will accept me as a "real hunter". I don't worry if anyone accepts me at all.
 
Damn I must of missed the post that got nuked. But I agree too much complaining and not enough scouting and hunting it sounds like. Hell 70k ha I am lucky to make half that in a year. The wife is a stay at home mother so I by no means will ever get to hunt the top end units. So what do I do... I put in for a unit in utah with left over archery permits every year so I guarantee myself a chance to hunt every year and with enough time spent I have managed to find 170 - 180 class bucks every year. I don't kill em every year but I do enjoy chasin em. And for some reason pretzels sound mighty good right now. Thanks slammy for getting my stomach wheels a turning. ha
 
I do not understand the post about hunting shows and magazines. I subscribe to several magazines and attend several shows. I don't do it because i am trying to "fit in", I do it because I enjoy looking at all of the trophy animals that are taken.
I know that Slamdunk doesn't need anyone to defend him, he is more than capable of defending himself, but you are way off base on him. He is one of the most generous people I have met when it comes to sharing hunting info. He is more than happy to help anyone and share his knowledge of units and animals. I don't think that someone who is only trying to prosper off of your wildlife would be so willing to help out complete strangers.
 
Elkun you are crazy! Those guys that buy tags aren't any different than any of us! They are also "gen hunters". YOU have every opportunity to buy a tag as Denny or any other guy that buys a tag! Quit crying, and please use spell check! Some punctuation might be in order as well.
Real hunters can't be wealthy right? They have to be poor white trash that's happy to kill a pisscutter?
Your logic or lack of kills me!


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Dude, you seriously think that posting your opinion on the internet is going to ruin someone's morning??? Wow, nice rant though.
 
theres no amount
>of BS you can post
>on an internet forum that
>is going to change that.
>


7thgen....I try not to get involved in these stupid spats here on MM....but you sir...and not very smart! Doug (slamdunk) has a TON of passion for just HUNTING! If you read his post...wich now I am not so sure you can comprehend it...it says that he guides BECAUSE of his passion!!! He does NOT guide for Moss and has nothing to do with Denny or Moss!!

Ahhh never mind...your statement above is the only true thing you have written...no matter how much I type...you are not going to comprehend it anyway. Freaking amazing!
 
7th.....no schmuck like you is going to ruin my day with your worthless rants. You have a hard time reading and or comprehending what i or anyone else is saying so i'll just laugh.
Just like FLEH stated, i guide because of the passion i have for hunting trophy animals and i love helping people get that done. My two jobs that i do are aimed at helping people because that's exactly what i enjoy doing and i am anything but rich or famous from either one of them. I gave up archery hunting years ago so i could guide elk hunters during that time of year. I could give up guiding and do all the hunting i want to because i am self employed, but guess what, i flat out love what i do and who i am to my hunters because of it! Nothing more gratifying than being able to still get Christmas cards from Sir Christopher Brooks of Northern Ireland's Galgorm Castle for the bull we took on Deseret 9 years ago and how grateful he STILL is after all these years. But you'll just never understand because you won't ever think outside your bubble. Hey 7th.....i'll ask that client to send you an apology letter for harvesting YOUR animal and how his private land bull took something away from YOU!
Are you almost out of pretzels yet??





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LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-13 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]All you guys b!tching about opportunity sound like a bunch of crying liberals!!!
You all want equality! You all want the same thing that someone that worked harder/smarter for but without doing the work yourself!
I'd bet you were b!tching about all the "occupy" nuts that were crying for equality! Well you are the same as them but in the hunting world! Get over it 7th.
If you can't buy a tag, you have a couple choices...Get a better job. Or, start saving some money and buy one when you can. EVERYone has that opportunity whether you believe that or not...It's a FACT!
No one can take opportunity from you except YOURSELF!

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Extremism at its finest, Slamdunk seems to be the moderate on here
I can see both sides on this, and what some people forget is that
wildlife is not an infinite resource.

Public land and public wildlife are also classic examples of socialism, and Im not afraid to say that public land and wildlife are the very best part of America in my opinion.

Im not against guiding, but I think some of these rants about making more money so you can buy the best tag and kill the biggest buck or bull are absured, Im sure glad I grew up when I did, and I kind of feel for the younger folks, especially those without a lot of money and great families behind them.
 
I try to look back 15 to 20 years ago in my personal experiences with regards to hunting. I remember coming back to camp and talking about 3 and 4 point bucks that i might have seen, or using a nice 6 point frame as a phrase to describe an elk. I remember how awesome it was when my dad gently slid the door open on his pickup to let me out in the morning for the hunt. I remember walking into camps filled with hunters just to talk with them, and to hear their stories. I remember the pride i had when i used to shoot anything with antlers, and how i couldn't wait to show of my 2 by 3 to my dad. I think all of us on here should go back and just remember how it used to be between us both in the field and in everyday life. It doesn't have to be the way it has become between us as hunters. I am so glad that i'm not raising a son of my own into the hunting world these days, because where is the joy in the sport anymore. How could the guys on this site over 40 years old ever possibly explain to a kid these days what it used to be like in the hunting world without a current example to use in the explanation. From what i see there isn't really anything current to point out to a youngster these days other than negativity and down right rudeness. Now i know some of the super negators on here cling on to it's all the gov. tags fault and guys with money have ruined the sport. That's an argument better used with 5th graders in school. It hasn't been the 1 percent of the gov. tags sold that's quickly ruining our sport, IT'S ALL THE REALLY MEAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE JOINED THE SPORT IN THE LAST 20 YEARS, OR JUST THE ONE'S THAT SOMEHOW GOT LOST ALONG THE WAY THAT ARE TRULY RUINING THE SPORT FOR ALL OF US. You guys want to know what's ruining everything between us as hunters, LOOK IN THE MIRROR, it's a real eye opener or at least it was for me. Good luck to all in the field this year, and remember your mirror.
 
Being 46 now, i certainly remember those good old days back in the 70's seeing the bucks grandpa was taking. Those days are exactly why i am inspired to do what i do in the hunting world today. Many factors have taken those times from us, and your right......it definitely wasn't or isn't the "1%".






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Thank you BB.
My point about never making over 70K in my life was only meant to tell 7th that i am not "rich" as he speculated, simply because i live near Denny Austad. I rent an average home and still drive that same white V-10 you've seen me in 10 years ago. I worked for Fluke in American Fork for 12 years and averaged about 55K a year and guided a few hunts in the fall to supplement my income maybe another 10K with tips. I may not be starving to death but i am anything but "rich". I am now self employed with a brand new business that is showing great signs of future decent income, but i will never become "rich" enough to buy a 20K elk tag.
I guide hunters for the same exact reason you do, BB.....because we love it!!! ;-)





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what is the biggest issue as to why hunting isn't like it was back in the good old days. I would say it is habitat destruction. Homes and subdivisions being built on winter range, oil/gas wells on winter range or migration routes. Progress in this case sucks.

Is there opportunity out there for everyone? Yes and no. If you have the resources financially, your opportunities are almost unlimited. And I don't want to hear "hey you had the same opportunity to be successful financially as the next guy", that is about as ignorant an argument as I have heard.

Me, for example; parents were blue collar, all dad ever told me was get into a construction trade and you will have it made. I wanted to go to college and get an education and play baseball. Dad wouldn't help one nickle,wouldn't even help me with student loans. Guidance counselors at school weren't much help either. So off to trade school I went. I busted my arse and strove to be the best I could be. I got my plumbing licesnse and a good paying job, until the construction industry went in the toilet. So now I had to retool at 48 and found a job paying less than half of what I use to earn. So now my opportunity to afford to go hunt the west is limited.

In America we have a broad and diverse work force. Those who did well for themselves, good for you. Those of us who bust our humps just to get by, good for us. Do I wish I had done better financially? Certainly. Am I jealous of those who did? HELL NO!! And I fully understand my situation so I have to live within my means and that means taking care of my wife and kids first. But don't tell us that the opportunity is the same for everyone cause it just isn't.
 
Nails, i mean this with total respect, but you have the same opp. to move out west and join us all out here. Last time i checked it wasn't illegal for people to move here to arizona. Nails, you made the choice to not live out west, and with that choice you chose to limit your opp. with regards to hunting western game. Just like if i wanted to start hunting big whitetails where you live, i would have the same problems that you have in reverse. Who's fault would it be if i was to rant and rave about how i can't kill big whitetails because i don't live where whitetails inhabit or that it somehow isn't fair for some reason. Also there was a time when i had money to buy tags also, and trust me i couldn't buy a tag right now even if i'm dreaming about buying it.. I happen to know plenty of dropouts who are more successful than most in this world. I also know a multi millionare who has gone bankrupt more than once, and had to start over from scratch, and guess what he's back on top again. I guess i have been lucky enough to see the opposite in this world, which is you can be born under a bridge in the smallest town with the poorest parents and still have a chance to make it to the big time with a lot of persistance and a lot of luck.
 
Sorry nails but you are the ignorant one if you truly believe you don't/didn't have the same opportunity to make as much money as you wanted. Some people understand sacrifice more than others. Most wealthy people throw it ALL on the line. Not just a little and hope it pays off.
You are the only one that can limit your possibilities. I too was in construction. It tanked. My family was living off of 1000-1200 dollars a month. We put everything we had on the line and changed our lives.
Don't blame others for what you did or didn't accomplish.
With that said I'm sorry for your unfortunate circumstances. I hope you can turn it around.


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I'm going to jump on the Band Wagon too. Nails you can do anything that you want to. I have always told my kids and anyone else that will listen, "If you work like you are worth a $100.00 an hour, someday someone will pay you a $100.00 an hour." I am a High School dropout, not proud of it just a fact at this point. I have nine kids two of which have Bachelor degrees. My goal in life is to help each one of my kids attain that level of college, or higher. It is still their choice. I got on the end of a shovel when I was 17 (the union folks thought I was 18)and decided I would be the best shoveler ever. I sat on a backhoe for a time and decided I wanted to be the best Backhoe operator ever. I became a certified gas pipeline welder, and you guessed it I wanted to be the very best. All of this effort got me a company that lost its contract when Enron busted the natural gas world. But "Lucky" or not I was offered a job by the Gas Company. My dad always said "The harder I work the Luckier I get." I just exhausted every penny I have available to me and starting a company with my son. I plan to be successful in everything I do. I have never hired a hunting guide even though I have the money if I wanted to. I have no problem with the guides or the way they go about doing there business, as long as they stay within the law. In fact I might hire my first guide in a year or two as I have 17 NR Utah deer points. I always thought I would DIY but time is very valuable to me these days. I have been out on many charters in the Ocean from Alaska to Cancun, always done with my Family. We are close to the same age and have lived through the same opportunities. You might have a leg up on me because you graduated High School and a trade school. As for me I have paved my way with the same hard work as you. I do agree we all get different cards in our hand, but some of us will throw away an ace if we think a six will give us a straight. I don't gamble any more as Vegas asked me to stop as I was taking their money to often. Some of us are more gamblers then others, but there is always opportunity out there. One more PS, My wife and three kids lived in a travel trailer for six months when we started a business. Boy was my teenage daughter glad when we built our 3,400 foot custom house on 10 acres in the Coeur d'Alene Idaho area. Attitude is everything, and I put that on my construction hats back in the glory days. Good luck on your wants, but don't think for a minute that you can't have anything you want.

DZ
 
One more Ps. My wife and I got $20.00 from an anonymous giver "Once" in our life. That was when we were living on our own at 16 and I was working 7 days a week and 12 hour night shift work. That was for $3.35 an hour. We was really living it up. Had our own car (66 Chevy Impala) and was renting a Mobile home. I hunted the Frank Church primitive area that year by myself. Two flat tires and 9 days later I hitched a ride out with some good ol' boys and went back the next week and retrieved the car.

DZ
 
Excellent Posts DZ! I live in IF right now, and was just in Coeur D'alene last week visiting my grandparents headstones in town and St Maries, it's a piece of heaven up there.
You are right.......we all have choices to make and to become whatever and basically whomever we want to be, financially, socially and otherwise......no excuses!
Hell, even Bill Gates was a highschool dropout according to what i've been told!





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I hope some of you are not missing my point.

I agree with your senario about "if you want it, work hard and get it. There is opportunity for all."

When it comes to houses, cars, money, etc. I agree whole heartedly. When it comes to public land and wildlife, no way!

I grew up as piss poor as anyone. What kept me alive was the fact that I could make my way down to the public water with the gun my Dad gave me and the $65 boat I worked all summer splitting firewood to get, and hunting wild ducks that belong to every American, regardless of financial status.

Trust me, I have no jealousy of anyone who has more money than me. If you have the money, you should be able to hunt Africa, Alaska, every State in the Union, and every private ranch in the US.

I love guides, and if I could afford to hire Slammy, I would over Mossback every time. I want someone who loves what he does, and who wouldn't want a guide who could kick you guides butt?:)

Slammy guides on private property and I hope the land owner charges as much as he can get. If he gets enough, he will use his property to maintain habitat. That is vital to our future. Private people can do 10X as good a job as the government at just about everything. Wildlife manangement is no exception!

Having said all that, my big concern is auction tags. I'm deathly afraid that, as time goes by, more and more will be sold to the highest bidder. Eventually maybe all tags will be beyond the poor kid who lives for the freedom that I had growing up. I'm also afraid it will branch out to other aspects of public hunting.

dz, how would you have liked it if you had to pay a $1000 tresspass fee to hunt the Frank Church primitive area? I'm sure it would be worth at least $1000 on the open market, even back then.

Aren't some things worth more than money? Shouldn't some things stay that way?

My prayer is that future piss poor kids will feel like Kings, hunting public lands and hunting wildlife that belongs to all the piss poor kids and the rich kids equally.

Call me a Communist if you want, but I hope you see my point. I guess my biggest fear is that we'll end up like Texas.:) Sorry Roy!

Eel
 
I agree with you a 100%. I fight for our public rights with all the fight I have in me. I was responding to Nail saying you get a bad hand and that is all you get. I have lived my life hunting and fishing. I have done very little off of public ground. I took my guns to town when the Forest service here in Oregon said they planned to close 2/3rds of "OUR" roads. I'm as far to the Right political as you get. But "OUR" public resources are all of ours. And I will fight to keep it that way. Sorry if I came across as saying that the all mighty dollar rules and everyone else step back. Around my house for the last 30 years we have eaten almost exclusively wild meat. I usually do a cost per pound to justify my spending. Now I just tell my wife it is the best meat in the world and so we pay the most per pound for it. Actually last year the three elk we harvested, the cost ended up just over $2 a pound.

DZ
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-13 AT 08:01PM (MST)[p]Some great motivational speech's, I just wish we weren't talking about the publics wildlife when we talk about making money.
Its too bad public land and public wildlife couldn't be the one sacred thing everyone could enjoy that wasn't ensnared in the constant pressure to win, to be the best, and to make lots of money, it used to be that way, god I loved it.

The desire to make a fortune is a powerful motivator, no doubt.
Its too bad that trophy big game animals aren't an unlimited resource, they are not though, in fact they are quite limited, and that's where things get muddled.
 
A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. I have harvested many Trophies in my book. And plan to harvest many more. The pictures aren't here because they don't meet the "standard" here 200" Muley or 400" Bull. But I have hundreds of pictures that I share with my "friends" (facebook)and old school album, that don't have such high "standards". My sons pictures with their first Muley Forky are some of my best.

DZ
 
what the???????

Im usually the blunt of this crap!

Lets refocus here people. Im the guy you all hate. lets see......
I grew up in a trailer house. Lived in poverty. Got an engineering degree. Lost my job. Took my severance package and started a very small oilfield business. I gambled it all big time. I didn't see my family for nearly 7 years as I literally worked day and night building my business. In the process I nearly lost my family. No worries I made it through and kept my family. Point is, I gambled everything and I worked my azz off. Now I make a few million a year.

Here are the facts of Slammy. He will be guiding me on my elk hunt. he isn't rich. I've given him a deer hunt before just because someone backed out on it but that's all hes ever done on private property. Hes my dietician and dang good at it. I can assure you hes not rich but he has a rich heart.

and for the record slammy it wasn't $20k, it was $30k for my Utah elk hunt this year that your taking me on. I also bought an $80k trophy bull elephant hunt in Botswana, and a $12,000 Navajo deer hunt, and a $30k leopard hunt(which I leave for in 2 weeks), Im planning on purchasing a Navajo bull elk tag for September for about $25k. I can go on but this should be enough to make most of you hate me.

Now there you go. Im the rich guy. Im the evil person. And Im the one who needs to give up all my money and just die. Im just wondering when one day these whiners on here are gonna realize they can do anything they want. ANYTHING! Their just to freakin chicken shiz to do it.
 
Lets not forget that I like the attention and I like people to know I have money and I like to show off my animals. I think Im narcissistic to. and egotistical. I think that about covers it all.

If I missed any insults would someone with a 3 grade mentality please chime in and remind me of other insults I missed?
 
Stinky this is a topic about the greedy outfitters SELLING our animals, not the greedy guys Buying them. The topic your looking for is a little further down, move on nothing for you here :)


I just call em as I see em!
 
RE: HEY PUNK!!!

>Did you check for Messages on
>your Phone?:D:D:D
>
>
>
>
>
>The Dew I had for Breakfast
>wasn't Bad so I had
>one more for Dessert!:D

I did bess, i gotcha buddy, thanks for the new number, i still had your old one from a few years back! ;-)
Sorry about the 10K discrepency stinkbug, i tried downplaying things just a bit. Your tag is not the "average" tag we outfit, those are the cheap ones at only 20K ;-)

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I think you guys are over simplifying things and maybe assuming I don't work hard. I'm not looking for anything easy. I had a great paying job and was happy with my hours and flexibility. An honest hard days work was what my boss got everyday, until some self promoting a-hole started making up lies about me. My immediate boss, the Head of Field Operations had my back, but it didn't matter because the owner bought all the BS that "Don" was spreading.
Went to the Union and they told me there was nothing they could do because it was his word against mine.So now 2 1/2 yrs later after being unemployed for almost 2 here I am making less than half of what I used to.I was out almost every day knocking on doors looking for work. 2 kids 13 and 11, a self employed wife trying to make her business work. Making ends meet to pay for the house I built etc. etc.
For you guys that rolled the dice and risked everything, I'm glad it worked out for you. But at 50 I just couldn't risk everything and go backwards.I'm not blaming anyone nor am I suggesting that states lower the tag fees to make it more affordable for me to have opportunity. I have sacrificed hunting opportunities to be able to provide educational opportunities for my kids and continue to put away money for retirement.
All I'm saying is not everyone who works hard is rewarded with financial security. Sometimes health issues take a toll(been there too), sometimes you are the victim of someone Else's lies and greed, sometimes it all works out and I am happy for those who have good fortune. I am also sympathetic with those who work their butts off and just get by.

So, No, Im not blaming anyone for having limited opportunity to hunt out west. I was just stating facts about what has happened to me. I do however take offense to statements suggesting that if you just work hard and want to be the best that you can, that you will be rewarded financially.

Good fortune to all.
Nails.
 
Don't forget you make fun of guys in wheelchairs. haha

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
that sucks to hear. You sound like my father. He busted his balls my whole life and he got no where. I never forgot that and I didn't take no for an answer. I would work months on end living in my truck moving from one job to the next until I had built a successful business. Honest to got, I abandoned my family. What I did was wrong and one step away from being a real POS! please remember that when someone is successful that they did one of two things. They lied and cheated their way to the top or they risked everything and I do mean everything. Luckily for me I salvaged my family and now I have some pretty awesome memories. Heck, I can even thank slamdunk for helping to keep me on track. I will give it to the man. Not only has he given my personal training advice but has also helped me keep my family. Lets just say Im just a little bit defensive of the big guy. I don't exactly have many friends in this ugly world and hes one of the few.
 
Again we have a thread that misses the real issue! You're beating up on each other for having (or not having) the means to hunt in ways you don't agree with. Personally, I'm glad most of you don't hunt like I do and I couldn't care less if someone is able to buy a tag and hire a guide in some exotic location or some remote stateside ranch. Those that have the means and the priorities are more than welcome to legally hunt whatever, whenever and wherever they choose.

Where I draw the line is when they use those means and priorties to manipulate the system in order to establish social-based policies that further enhance their chosen hunting lifestyles at the expense of my chosen hunting lifestyle. We've already seen substantial deer tag reductions, increased buck to doe ratios, lose of statewide archery, smaller hunting areas, reduced group applicant quotas and increased permit fees, while witnessing ongoing efforts for antler restriction areas, shortened seasons, an added buck to doe ratio tier, even further tag cuts, and more restrictive laws, rules and regulations that make it less attractive to hunt for those who have lesser means and/or different priorities.

Those of us who prioritize opportunity over trophy antlers are often labeled as "greedy", but are we any more "greedy" than those who push for fewer opportunities for others in order to get their trophy antlers?

It isn't about the money, it's about how that money is used to control hunting for all of us! Per DWR's surveys, in Utah we already have a social balance of trophy units and opportunity units (and laws), and I, for one, want to keep that balance.
 
The only thing ive learned from this post is money can buy friends! I still havent figured out why anyone would need a guide for an elk of all things. But im all for em if thats what people want.
 
+1 elkfromabove! I agree 100% I have a small dog in the fight as I have 17 NR Utah deer points. When I started that game there was no Expo and there were more tags going into the pool. The SFW has cost me many years by "Lobbying". I still don't hold it against the guides or the guys paying for tags. Maybe I'm sticking my head in the sand a bit. If you don't like the system than do all you can to get it changed. $ drive everything, so in order to get fish and game off of the hook they are on, it will take $s coming from somewhere to replace lost revenue. Not an easy road to go down. I don't have the answers just 2 cents.

DZ
 
HayZeus you are either deaf, blind or have one hell of a tough time comprehending what has even been said here!
You must be totally oblivious to why someone would need a guide.
Lets start off with your comment about Stinky buying his friends.
I can't say what i'd like to towards you and your comment, but please try to read my mind.......it's not very nice. Stomper has not "bought" my friendship, you dumbass and i am totally offended by that 12 year old mentality of yours!!
And number two, (tid bit of info your obviously to stupid to realize) people don't use guides because they don't know how to hunt. Stomper hunts all over the globe, but guess what fool, YOU CAN'T JUST GO HUNTING WHERE EVER YOU WANT TO ON YOUR OWN!! I'm guiding him on a very private piece of prime elk country that even i have to get clearance on. Guess what......he's not hiring me because i'm a professional or because he couldn't get it done by himself, he's doing it because he's paying for access to the land and us guides know the country because we've been on it for 20+ years!!
Crawl back in your hole under your rock until you grow up and are able to understand what people are trying to tell you.
You don't think Stomper can kill bulls in the Gila or other places he's familiar with?......your an idiot.





avatar-1.png
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-13 AT 07:34AM (MST)[p]Why does It always has to get personal?
What concerns me is the somewhat recent and constant push for special tags, expo tags, governor tags, auction tags special year long season tags ect. ect. and all these in public land and taken out of general quota.

Then we have the guides and finders fees and big money pulling out all the stops and doing everything possible to get the biggest trophy animal.
Most all of us dream about having a chance at a once in a lifetime animal, I know I have since I have been 14 years old, this stuff is starting to ruin that for a lot of young people.

I don't agree with a lot of people that say anyone who questions what been happening should just work three jobs and so they can get get rich, and then they can pay finders fees and hire multiple guides, that everyone could put their hand up at the auction, and everyone has the same chance at a trophy, and they are just lazy and don't hunt hard enough.

I just hope some people think fully about this money buys all trend and let their feelings be known to the decision makers. In my opinion enough is enough for now.
 
>Stomper can only kill pisscutter bulls
>in his areas Slammy....:):):) ha
>

Lol Sniper!
One thing about Stomper that IS fact......i have to keep his bullets in my pocket and hand them to him one at a time.
Good thing i wear cargo pants that hold 50 rounds!!! :p
avatar-1.png
 
Piper, since when did money start buying everything? As far as i know money has been buying everything for as long as we as humans became civilized. I don't think money buying everything is a new trend. It just so happens that there didn't used to be that much interest in giant animals until the last 15 years, and guess what when there is additional demand for anything in this world, the price goes up, kind of a natural thing and maybe not a trend. I do agree though that all the jealousy with regards to people who harvest giants compared to people who want to harvest giants is what is ruining the sport. It's that old catchy phrase that comes to mind, "don't hate the players, hate the game instead". The game hasn't changed in a 100 years, but the players(we as hunters) have. We as hunters got much more serious about the game in the last 2 decades, and everything that has come out of being much more serious about the game, has driven up the competition for tags and their prices. Good luck to all in the field this year. I drew by far the least desirable archery elk tag in arizona this year, and am looking forward to killing my 3rd bull in a row over 385 this year from public land. I would rather everyone keep arguing over the premium tags and how much they sell for, while im out hunting the shittiest ground in our state pulling out giants bigger than the premium units. It's not about the money it's about the effort your willing to put in for the job, this goes with money or hunting.
 
Well slammy judging from your response its a very sore subject for you, im sure youll get over it someday. If not no skin off my back. Flame on!!!
 
slamdunk. some day you will get the pat on the head ,you looking for,,,til then keep calling other people names,,,,
 
>slamdunk. some day you will get
>the pat on the head
>,you looking for,,,til then keep
>calling other people names,,,,

I'm not looking for a pat on anything....i am who i am and i love what i do. I'm pretty certain i wouldn't have been asked to moderate this site if SOMEONE didn't think i was at least half ok, right?
If you take what i do for supplemental income personally and call it stealing or theft then that's your problem to deal with....i'm happy, very fortunate to be able to do what i do and very content ;-)
avatar-1.png
 
Slam, are you offering a reward to anyone who finds the points that STOMPER shoots off?:)

Hey guys, if nothing else, STOMPER is living proof of that old saying "If I can do it, anyone can do it." There is hope for all of us.:)

Eel
 
slamdunk, i wouldnt have been asked to MODderate this site, if someone didnt think i was at least half ok. now your kissing your own a##. what a joke,,,,,
 
couesmagnet--Its not me that Im concerned about, its the younger folks that are having their opportunity slowly taken away.

Im going to push in the best way I can to preserve public land and public wildlife for the common people, that's why I say what I do, and that involves making sure big money is as irrelevant as possible when it comes to opportunity on public land in this sport.
Sorry if that upsets you, and I'm guessing we have a somewhat different value system.
I'm impressed that you are going to kill your 3rd or 4th huge bull later this year, you must be one heck of a hunter.
I guess I will just have to try harder to be successful.
Oh wait, I almost forgot, Its not always just about me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-13 AT 01:53AM (MST)[p]Piper, i'm not trying to brag , and only mentioned my extremely lucky run on the latest elk kills. On top of that i thank first and for most the good Lord for blessing me with the luck it took to find those bulls in the first place. Each of the 2 successful hunts i spent over 30 days straight hunting in order to produce the luck and the blessing. Each hunt i saw less than 25 total elk and less than 13 bulls per year. When i say luck, i mean luck had way more to do with it. Even more luck, both shots where less than 15 yards spot and stalk so it was impossible to miss. I would rather be lucky than good any day, but i do consider myself a decent hunter from time to time. I hope your not questioning my moral aptitude or personal values by one of your replies, but that's ok even if that was your intent. If you draw arizona some time send me a message and i would be glad to help in any way. I quit thinking i was better than anyone a while ago. Good luck to all this year including myself cause at least i can admit i'm going to need a bunch of it.
 
Well, after reading this thread, I feel like we all need to get together for a group hug and move on with life.....
 
I sure hope that Slam and Stomper consider me as a friend, I'm happy to call both of them my friends.You tell alot about a man by who his friends are.
I hope they have a great hunting season this year.I know I will be waiting to see the pictures.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
BB- 7thgenmt is just full of jealousy and hatred for some reason. He's obviously delusional based on his reading and comprehensive skills......there simply is no hope.
Somehow he's just not letting go that i am not somehow in Doyle or Denny's pockets in any way shape or form.
Probably still believes in the tooth fairy as well.

Gator.....you are welcome to my campfire anytime......well, whenever i'm on public land anyway ;-)




avatar-1.png
 
Wait....? No tooth fairy?!?!?!?!? Oh F##k! Thanks for ruining this thread and my life! Why didn't anyone tell me before this?
I'm taking up donations for my counseling sessions now. Anyone willing to give me some money?

Traditional >>>------->
 
Hey,because i'm "rich" and prospering off everyone's wildlife, i'll send you a $20 bill if you post up a pic of your lost tooth! Lol





avatar-1.png
 
berry, whats the mater cup cake' some one picking on yur boy. . chill. he has his big boy pants on,,,, and doing fine,,,,
 
Really nice if you could see something.,If you love yourself,Picking friends is so easy you just pick the ones that are like you. See now look around and see if your friends are like you or like someone you really would like to be like.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
7thgen - Slam isn't the only one who's on here defending what "they" do. I've guided my fair share of hunters. Officially retired from that now but what a ride it was! I loved being in the mountains for months at a time. There were some people I guided that I wouldn't take out again but for the most part I was able to make life long friends. Those relationships have benefited me and my family ever since. For those that gripe about guides and outfitters, I would bet that you haven't done it or been around it. If so, you really didn't get it now did you? Although you wouldn't admit it, I would bet that you would go on a guided hunt in a second if someone gifted it to you. Bitching about "public resources" being for sale is pure stupidity. Every business functions off of public resources in one form or another. It's called business and using what God put on this earth for us to use. Successful people always have enemies. They don't get to be successful by waiting until the crosswalk is clear. They are motivated people that get shi+ done. The rest get left behind to cry over their situation. So get off your a$$ and do something about your situation you Obama voting cry babies. Either that or shut the hell up. As Chis Ledoux would say "there's a $5 fine for whining", unless you can't afford that either!!!


It's always an adventure!!!
 
AWLB...AMEN and +1000000

I have met some great guys on this site and you and slammy are two of the best! It is just unfortunate that we have to put up with 7thg and elkun type people here...it keeps me away more that it should.
 
pretty simplistic viewpoint awholelottabull, Regulating the use of public resources is essential and these arguments about that have been going on for a hundred years or more.

We all know guides and outfitters love the business, who wouldn't like to get paid to be in the mountains for months at a time?
The problem is wildlife and wildcountry is legally owned by all Americans, are pretty limited in scale, and the human who want to exploit that limited resource are many.
The hills are getting more crowded all the time, and in this instance Utah has to tightly control the number of bull elk or buck deer tags in order to maintain trophy quality, this is all done because the predator is capable of overwhelming the prey in a hurry.

I don't think anyone disagrees that paid professional guides are good at what they do, the best equipment and things like finders fees are deadly tools in the quest for a trophy, there is no doubt that guided hunters have a big advantage over unguided hunters on average, just one look at an outfitter websites to confirm that.

Its not simple and kind of complicated and hard to explain, but there are some conflicts of interest here.

Without telling people to shut the hell up, just try to think about all these things try not getting mad and cussing Obama, telling regular unguided hunters that they are worthless lazy no good hunters if they can't get the biggest trophys, and telling people they just need to work several jobs and get rich enough to compete with the guided hunters.

Sometime I will explain the complex relationship between wild country, type of access, type of weapon, season timing and length, age class and tag numbers.


Chris Ledoux passed away a few years ago, whether he would have said that in this case or not, we will never know.
 
The only reason guided hunters do better on average than unguided hunters is because of the effort spent scouting. Any unguided hunter has just as good of a chance to harvest a big animal as any guided hunter. The crowd i hunt with will routinely out do most guided hunters in the field with the exception of the most popular guides. The reason for this being, time spent in the field scouting. The beauty of this is that any normal hunter can go spend time in the field equal to a guide if he so chooses to equal out this situation. I've never ran into a guided hunter in the field and ever felt like the guided hunter had even the slightest advantage or leg up on me. The reason for this is because i've probably spent more time in the unit than the guide on average. My point goes back to, you get exactly what you put into the hunt, no more and no less. Instead of complaining that some dude is going guided ,thus he has some kind of big advantage, isn't true. Time in the field = giant bucks and bulls, unless you have enough money to simply show up with a guide and start shooting. I wish i had the money to hire a guide, but until then i just keep scouting as much as possible knowing it all seems to work itself out. Besides, who has more fun the guy that shows up and starts shooting or the guy that watched the animal himself for the last 2 weeks. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as well as the effort put into the beauty of the harvest.
 
couesmagnet- What do you think about finders fees? if you don't know what they are, I will explain. Should we expect everyone to afford those?
What about multiple guides and spotters?

Personally I wouldn't ever hire a hunting guide in most of the lower 48, I have nothing against anyone who does, its just something I wouldn't do unless I were hunting in someplace like the Thorofare or maybe deep in the Idaho wilderness, and I would never hunt pre scouted game,but thats just me and Im not saying others are wrong for doing so.

I agree with your statement about beauty being in the eye of the beholder and that effort counts.
 
So piper, you mean to tell me that if all of a sudden all the guides and outfitters were taken away that there would be more opportunity for the unguided hunter to hunt? You're telling me there would be more tags? I'm sure that's not what you believe. I know it's a limited resource but it's heavily regulated. That's why I can only hunt elk in my home state once every 20 years for myself. I'm absolutely positive that if you took all the guides and outfitters out of the equation the opportunity would NOT increase. There may be bigger animals left untouched but the number of tags surely wouldn't increase. As much as you think that wildlife is a public resource don't forget there's a government agency out there that begs to differ. Those are their animals and fish and don't you ever forget it. Just like the minerals in the earth that some business minded guy decided to mine and make a few million. Is that a public resource? There are some that would say yes but plenty others that would say no. I realize that it's not really apples to apples but like I said earlier, every business operates on some form of public resource in one way or another.

And by the way, I never slammed the average Joe with his methods of hunting. I only slam the ones that ##### and moan about their situation instead of doing something about it. Hard work pays off. It always has and always will.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-13 AT 09:14PM (MST)[p]Im not moaning about anything, just pointing things out and hoping people let the public agencies know how they feel.

If there were no professional guides pounding the areas on some Utah bull elk hunts, then I would bet that a reasonable tag increase wouldn't hurt the age class of the animals or the quality of the hunt.
Since the age class of animals is a big deciding factor in setting tag numbers, I have no doubt that tag increases would be possible.

A few others on here have slammed regular hunters as being lazy and worthless because they can't seem to compete with the professionals, that attitude bothers me when I think of the limited resources of many hunters and especially younger hunters.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-13
>AT 09:14?PM (MST)
>
>Im not moaning about anything, just
>pointing things out and hoping
> people let the public
>agencies know how they feel.
>
>
> If there were no professional
>guides pounding the areas
>on some Utah bull elk
>hunts, then I would bet
>that a reasonable tag increase
>wouldn't hurt the age
>class of the animals or
>the quality of the hunt.
>
> Since the age class
>of animals is a big
>deciding factor in setting tag
>numbers, I have no doubt
>that tag increases would be
>possible.
>
>A few others on here have
>slammed regular hunters as being
>lazy and worthless because they
>can't seem to compete with
>the professionals, that attitude bothers
>me when I think of
>the limited resources of many
>hunters and especially younger hunters.
>

Piper, finders fees are a tough one to swallow for me, but I can't really explain why though. I've been involved on a finders fee in the past, and probably won't go there again. Nothing against anyone who's out there chasing a finders fee though. Good luck to all in the field this year. It's time to go hunting for one of my favorite species, big river or stream brown trout. I don't know about you guys, but any brown over 20 inches from a stream is almost as good as drawing my bow. Any leads out there would be much appreciated for an arizona boy. We don't have much here.
 
Thanks AWLB for your back up here, it's nice to know i have a few good people on my side of the fence once in a while.
Another thing i'm not seeing anyone point out about guides and opportunity, is one i have been pounding here that no one seems to acknowledge........private land hunts.
I can't speak for public land guides because i simply am NOT one. Yes i have been, but after reading all the "hate mail" on here, it reminds me why i am very grateful for my position in the hunting industry. My clients are very professional hunters, they don't "need" guides and are very successful on their own in other hunting situations. What they pay me for is "access" to premium private lands and they hire me for my expertise and knowledge about those lands and the animals that reside there.
Contrary to the beliefs by some of my critics, no, i do not "wipe their arses", gut their animals, or snuggle and read them bedtime stories (sorry to burst your bubble, 7th)





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LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-13 AT 07:32AM (MST)[p]The thing about people paying good money for private land hunts is that it encourages landowners to take care of the habitat and wildlife.

I have been on quite a few guided fishing trips and one guided moose hunt in Canada, always a good time and a great way to learn about new places and meet new people.

Couesmagnet- fishing sounds good, I just wish it weren't zero degrees and snowing outside.
 
Big money clients,outfitters and tags ruin things for the average hunter,if you cant understand its probably because its not effecting you the way it does most of us.There is no amount of BS you can post that is going to change that fact.
 
>Big money clients,outfitters and tags ruin
>things for the average hunter,if
>you cant understand its probably
>because its not effecting you
>the way it does most
>of us.There is no amount
>of BS you can post
>that is going to change
>that fact.


big money, outfitters, and tags have been around in the hunting world for quite some time. Yes, things tend to not stay the same over time. 7th, can you tell me one thing that's stayed the same over time in this world cause i can't think of anything myself? You either learn to play the game and adapt to changes or you go extinct. I promise you don't need the premium tags or big money to kill giants these days, but you will have to adapt to the new game being played. I don't have big money by any stretch of the imagination, any the game has only become sweeter for me. It's not easy anymore i must admit, but it's way more rewarding. Who is the one selling the "new" fact that you have to have the "good" tags to compete, cause i'm not buying it.
 
It's usueless coues.....he's obviously been picked on his whole life. Must have started in the 3rd grade when a 6th grader who wore better clothes kicked him off his swing in the playground.



avatar-1.png
 
I wasn't trying to kick a dead horse fellas, but when i looked down at my shoes i realized they were covered in horse meat or bullshit however you look at it. I just wish we could all get back to hunting, and leave out the whoa is me stuff. The only point i care to get across is that you don't have to have a great tag to feel like you have a chance to kill something big. Somehow we as hunters have sold ourselves out to ourselves. The good tags are all around us, but the ones that make killing giants easy are the only ones disappearing because of demand. I better go get my fix for the week at the neighborhood golf course pond tonight. The large mouth bass are spawning right now, and those nice rich people who love to share their bass with me are waiting for me to show up with my trout spinners. Lol
 
Holy smokes 7th, you are a lost cause. Sounds like all you hunt is anger and controversy and i wish nothing but the best for you. I don't think you would know how to enjoy yourself if you had the best tag in the world. Your responsible for ruining hunting for yourself and no one else. Sorry i wasted my time. Peace out.
 
7th ball bag what part of PRIVATE LAND hunts don't you understand. These are hunts that you will never be allowed to hunt whether money was a factor or not....

Slammy have you told stink eye that your not planning on wiping his rear end and reading him bed time stories cuz im pretty sure them stories are the main reason he decided to drop that cash on this hunt. :)
 
>7th ball bag what part of
>PRIVATE LAND hunts don't you
>understand. These are hunts
>that you will never be
>allowed to hunt whether money
>was a factor or not....
>
>
>Slammy have you told stink eye
>that your not planning on
>wiping his rear end and
>reading him bed time stories
>cuz im pretty sure them
>stories are the main reason
>he decided to drop that
>cash on this hunt.
>:)
LMAO......he fully knows my limitations and where i draw the line. On the mountain, "business is business" and i've got a job to do getting him a big velevet bull on the ground. Our "fun" this year is we are bringing our AR's and going on an all out assault on the unhunted masses of coyotes on that inhabit place.....there WILL be carnage!!

avatar-1.png
 
It just floors me at some of the posts on here about big money and outfitters. Lets just be clear on this one, the big money guys and outfitters have ALWAYS been killing the better animals!!!! I lived next to a great az outfitter growing up and can remember looking at countless 6x or 7x bulls. The use of "380,390,400" was never a term back then, and yes almost all his clients killed bulls over the 360 mark. That was 25 years ago.
Now days every 15 year old kid is out there looking to kill a 200" deer or 400" bull, it's no longer a 6x. My point is that the decline of trophy animals has been because of a new standard that we as hunters have set for ourselves. I always laugh when I read a post by someone b!tching about lack of quality animals on there hunt, but then says how they saw 50+ bucks! Guess what your tags is for the chance to harvest A deer or A elk, it says nothing about a HUGE deer or elk. Get over yourselves and enjoy the hunt! The problems you have finding trophy animals (your standards) have absolutely nothing to do with guides, outfitters, or a few millionaires!!!

In high school, probably around 1994-95 somewhere, I was offered $1000 to put an x on a map for Les Shelton because I found a truly monster bull that he had been hunting for a couple years in az. I had so much respect for that man that I gave him his X, free of charge. My point here is, finders fee's have been around for a long time too. You just didn't hear about them as much as you do now. My guess is the Internet wasn't around back then.

Outfitters have to work 10x as hard now as they did back then because 90% of average joe hunters are no longer happy with taking a 6x bull or a 4x muley. Life's tough, trophy huntings even tougher!!!

I just call em as I see em!
 
Not exactly, big money is more involved than ever when it comes to western public land hunting, Im a little older than you, and I see the trends a little differently.
Wealth tags are a recent development, finders fees are more widespread, multiple guides and spotters are far more commen, and all to the detriment of regular hunters.

I call em as I see them too, and things have changed a lot over the last 40 or so years that I have been hunting.
 
It's pretty close, when was the last time you've been out on the kiabab or strip in az during the late rifle hunts? Or on a unit 9 or 10 elk hunt in az? Let me tell you it's not the outfitters making these hunts suck, it's the 1000+ people on every high spot, flooding the 2 way radio channels telling their "average joe" hunting buddy what's there, where he needs to be, who's in the area, ect. Not to mention all these non hunting buddies holding spots just in case the one their 1 friend with a tag is at doesn't work out.
I guided for a big time guide for a number of years, lets be very clear here, it was me and 1 hunter! That's it! Yes I'd go help out the other guides when my hunter harvested early, but it was never any better than that for any of us. I scouted months ahead of my hunts, unpaid, to make sure my hunter would have the best chance at harvesting a nice animal. I rarely ever saw any "regular joe" hunters before opening day.

I think it's funny how you guys claim all these outfitters and the "big money" client are hurting hunting now days. So 1 outfitter has a posse out looking for 1 bull, and that's bad. But the other 100 tag holders have just as many people out there, doing the exact same thing, and that's ok?


I just call em as I see em!
 
Hornhunter, good point on all the average joes with the radios out there on the strip. I was there this year again for the rifle hunts in 13a and 13b and then straight to the kaibab late hunt. In that 33 day straight run i had very few run ins with other guides , and the one's we did run into were very nice. We ran into way more average hunter's with posse's than anything else. It's been my experience that the posse's are way more prevalent with the average joe hunter than the guides. It's hard to find a radio channel up there that doesn't have multiple average joe's screaming with excitement.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-13 AT 11:24AM (MST)[p]Coues the most fun I've ever had on the kiabab was a few years back screwing with guys on those radios, set to scan and then jump in on their convos telling them you'll be there in a min every time they talk about specif locations of a buck. Oh good times lol


I just call em as I see em!
 
Hornhunter, i know what you mean dude. I get really excited sometimes on the radio myself. Last year we were looking at a solid 205 buck on the kaibab, and i went to screaming myself on the radio and mistakenly thru out a name nearby for reference. It wasn't long till i heard other people talking about getting over there also. I know in the strip there are people using very powerful scanners. I think i might have heard you a few years ago on the kaibab messing with people on the radios. Were you out by jump up/dinner pockets/little springs. I've never seen such a mess of people like that before. I still don't know how a big buck makes it thru out there.
 
HH247 is spot on.....thank you sir!!
That's kind of how i was explaining my Utah LE hunts i guided on. There wasn't a camping spot on the entire mountain and it looked like a general season spike elk slaughter. Was Mossback there? Yes......looking for one bull with two guides.
I hate that Doyle's chronies runined my hunt like that.....bastages!!!



avatar-1.png
 
Coues we were out on jump up that year, and the people were everywhere! It wasn't to bad to get away from them and find the bigger bucks though. It used to be a great hunt, but the last couple times I was up there ruined the "feel" of hunting up there. And yeah I'm guilty of letting a spot slip out a time or two up there lol mostly false sightings though ;)

Slammy do what you love man and don't let anyone tell you any different! I got out of guiding for my family about 8 years back, no regrets. But I sure do miss helping guys fulfill their life long dreams! It was a part of my life that is filled with some great memories of great people having that 1 chance in their lives to do what I get to do all year long!


I just call em as I see em!
 
>So piper, you mean to tell
>me that if all of
>a sudden all the guides
>and outfitters were taken away
>that there would be more
>opportunity for the unguided hunter
>to hunt? You're telling
>me there would be more
>tags? I'm sure that's
>not what you believe.
>I know it's a limited
>resource but it's heavily regulated.
> That's why I can
>only hunt elk in my
>home state once every 20
>years for myself. I'm
>absolutely positive that if you
>took all the guides and
>outfitters out of the equation
>the opportunity would NOT increase.
> There may be bigger
>animals left untouched but the
>number of tags surely wouldn't
>increase. As much as
>you think that wildlife is
>a public resource don't forget
>there's a government agency out
>there that begs to differ.
> Those are their animals
>and fish and don't you
>ever forget it. Just
>like the minerals in the
>earth that some business minded
>guy decided to mine and
>make a few million.
>Is that a public resource?
> There are some that
>would say yes but plenty
>others that would say no.
> I realize that it's
>not really apples to apples
>but like I said earlier,
>every business operates on some
>form of public resource in
>one way or another.
>
>And by the way, I never
>slammed the average Joe with
>his methods of hunting.
>I only slam the ones
>that ##### and moan about
>their situation instead of doing
>something about it. Hard
>work pays off. It
>always has and always will.
>
>
>
>It's always an adventure!!!

My friend, I mean to say EXACTLY that there would be more oppourtunity without the outfitting buisness. I go to the RACs, I read the WB proceedings, I have yet to see where average joe is lobbying for anything. The EXPLOSION of CWMUs in this state, many of which DO contain public land is 100% limiting to the general public. I know your old enough to remember asking for permission and hunting private ground, perhaps even paying for access, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN NOW SOLELY BECAUSE OF THE MONEY PAID BY OUTFITTERS TO LOCK UP LAND FOR THERE CLIENTS. Average joes are so spread out that they rarely agree and get together to push the state. The outfitters and guides speak with one clear message and NEVER does that message include more oppourtunity for anyone other than their paying customers.
As for Slamdunk, your examples are stupid. No, the guy in first class shouldn't give up his seat to anyone. HOWEVER, the taxpayers don't own the plane, that is private industry. The taxpayers DO OWN THE WILDLIFE. IT IS GOVERNMENTS JOB TO CREATE THE LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, then hopefully get out of the way. It is hilarious to listen to you all talk about socialism, and liberalism. Without governments hand in this issue the landowner could still get paid(tresspass fees), HOWEVER he would not have guaranteed clients year after year because those clients would be subject to waiting periods, draws, and the same seasons everyone else is. The issue isn't whether there should be guides or not, the issue is that there is a special class of "hunters" who have completely seperate and unequal rules and regs. THAT IS THE ISSUE. IF Denny wants to hunt trophy bulls and can pay a guide, GREAT!!, but he should be subject to the same rules as you and I. It is those special rules and regs that drive the price of tags through the roof. Denny is paying to circumvent waiting periods, draws, etc, and government shouldn't be setting up the loophole for him to do so!
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
You can't have it both ways. Don't come in here and ##### about Obama, the liberals, etc, then turn around and try to defend the the diffent rules for different people. Don't come in here and preach about how hard you worked, or what you sacraficed to become wealthy or succesful, and then expect to be treated differntly because of it. Guess what, if Denny draws a tag this year and I draw one, he can pay whoever he wants, I won't. Then we can BOTH sit out 5 years and start again. Do that, shut down the circumventing of seasons, waiting periods, and draws by guys like Denny and NO ONE will care what he pays for Doyle to be his friend. But when I am sitting on year 4 of a waiting period and Denny is writing checks to get around it, you damn right it is WRONG! Does Denny get his own lane on the freeway by writing checks? Does he get quicker service at the DMV? So why should wildlife be any different. We fight amongst ourselves, averages and guides, all the while THE DON and the Dennys of the world continue to buy there way into special government programs, while telling us all how they became successfull all on their own. Don't tell me about how oppressive government is while your seeking special government deals via the DWR!!



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
living the dream doesn't always come with a price tag. Sniper1 is livin the dream and he does it his way. He doesn't have to have pink pajamas and some other dude holding his hand. DIY Priceless !!
 
very good points..... Big money comes at a price. It always does. Those of you who think American capitalism is this wonderful magic blessing live in a hole. Government is the only protection we have. Teddy didn't set all this land aside to cater to the wealthy. It is yours. You are the King. They'll all tell us we need their money to survive. Utah is the worst. You just keep giving more and more away. Sad that's its the common guy out there that thinks these guys represent their values in the legislature. Behind closed doors they don't give a squat about you or fairness or your values. These boys want to sell your lands to the highest bidder and you vote for these guys. Get educated and don't buy into their conspiracy and fear mongering to get your vote.
 

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