Point Restriction!

H

HAZMATT

Guest
I agree with a lot of the issues and concerns other members are bringing up. With that said...

I strongly believe for our deer herd we should bring back the point restriction in conjunction with higher license fee and fewer tags per unit.

I hate to see any tag license be raised. But, for the purpose of increasing the deer population and quality of our deer herd, sacrifices will HAVE to be made and I know G&F will not be the ones to make that sacrifice. By raising the license fee and cutting the amount of tags per unit will offset the budget. Which means G&F will still be happy.

The point restriction will also help the deer herd. Point restriction will have to go by each unit. Some will be 3 point rule( one side has to have 3 points or more)some will be 4 point ( one side has to have 4 points or more) and some could be 6 point ( both sides have to equal 6 points or more) or even 8 point ( both sides have to equal 8 points or more). Now for the youth and mobility impaired should be any ANY buck. I would even say either sex (buck or doe).

I would love to hear from others on this subject. Please feel free to comment.

Thank you
 
I know something needs to be done, but I'm not sure the point restriction is the way to go. I've been seeing an aweful lot of mature forkies in the unit where I hunt. Hope not to ever shoot another one of those myself, but if anything, I'd like for someone to cull those types from the gene pool...

I think cutting the allotted tags in half, but raising the Resident price to $80 would be the way to go.
 
I agree! I was really upset the first time when they eliminated the point restriction after one season.

The original post is too complicated. Most New Mexican's can't count well enough to make that work, but to keep Mozey happy how about:

3 points on a side or 15" wide (or whatever width number makes sense).

I FIRMLY believe we should outlaw the killing of first year bucks (1.5 year olds)

Most fork horns are spike equivalents (1.5 year olds) and I see no difference...they should both be off limits. These are the dumbest deer in the woods and should be allowed to live another year and at least grow a second set of antlers.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-13 AT 06:45PM (MST)[p]Antler point restrictions do not work as a long term management plan.

Link not working

It is time to start thinking outside the box. I agree tags could be reduced. Doubling the price of a tag in my opinion is not the answer. I can/would afford it like most here but the demographic it would hurt is the one we need the most,the young adult/family. We can't allow ourselves to let this become a "rich mans" sport. Maybe it's time for a state " wildlife tax"? Tax everything that is taxed by the RP.act, put a cash value on all LO authorizations with a tax. I know everyone including myself hates the word tax but with these type taxes the cost would be spread out and constant regardless of tag numbers.
 
Having once been young and poor myself, I have a lot a empathy for what you're saying, but I don't believe that $80 would be enough to change this to a rich man's sport.

At a time when we need the G&F to be putting more assets towards the recovery of our herds, I don't think the answer is to reduce the G&F's resources either. It still irritates me to no end that our last Gov decided to stick us all for a Rail Runner that 99% of us don't or will never use; I don't want to be a hypocrite by trying to pass the buck for something that relatively few of us care about onto everyone else.

If $80 vs $40 would push the younger generation out of hunting, then by all means, lets have a discussion on what the right amount should be. But NM can't continue to sell tags at the pace it's selling them and then expect in a few years that it'll even have a deer herd for the younger generation to hunt...
 
Make the adult tags $100 and keep the youth tags at $30.

There will be nothing left if some drastic measures are not taken.

Regarding point restriction, I dont have a problem with it, but, it on its own will not solve the problem.

That 15% success in unit 34 will go to less than 10%.

Cut tags in minimum in half in 34, 29 and 30 or even close deer hunting in those units for a couple years.
 
I do not think point restrictions work. Many people walk up and check, and if it is a fork they walk off and continue hunting.
 
Mozey, I agree a $80 tag does not make it a rich mans game. My point is , increasing tag prices seems to be the answer to every question. When the resident/NR quota came up the answer was increase tag prices. I have no problem paying higher tag fees to help preserve something I love doing but at some point we all need to take a look to see if there are better ways. The example I made on a state wildlife tax for the the products that fall under The Pittman Robertson Act would not be passing the buck on to anyone. It targets the people that are getting something out of our resources. I also agree we can not cut the G&F resources. I'm not saying my ideas are perfect or would even work but just like in today's business climate, if your sitting idle doing things the same way you did 10 years ago you're going to get left behind.
 
Just my thoughts on the decline of mule deer in the west. It is not just a NM problem it is a problem in all of the western states.
Is the main problem the management of the resource? I don't think so. Sure cutting tags in some areas dang sure couldn't hurt. There are areas however where tag numbers are very low or nonexistent and deer are still struggling there.
Is the main problem the loss of habitat? I don't think this is it either. Yes the loss of habitat is having an impact,but deer are thriving in my suburban neighborhood as well as many others. Is it due to drought conditions? I don't buy into that either, there are many areas where water is plentiful and deer are still struggling.
Some areas claim that the decline of mule deer is due to traffic related mortality or to many predators. I can show you a stretch of highway in CO where you will see carcasses every mile or so. It is definatly a shame but, this area probably has one of the best deer herds in the country and they don't seem to be disappearing. Predator populations you will be told rise and fall with the amount of prey. This has been proven by science over and over. So if our deer herds are down predator populations must be also?
I am not a biologist (just an old redneck actually)but common sense tells me to find the real problem with our deer herds. You have to look at what is different now from the heyday of western mule deer hunting (50's, 60's, 70's).

ELK POPULATIONS!
Now I am an elk hunter first and foremost, but when you look at alot of areas that used to be primarily deer they now have thriving elk populations and very few deer. Some of the best deer areas currently in the country have very few if any elk. Others have only a migratory herd of elk. I think some types of habitat deer will live along side of elk without to much concern. Other types if elk move in deer will move out. It seems to me that if you go back and look at historical population numbers of both species. You will see where as soon as elk were reintroduced to areas the deer numbers started down. The better the elk herds have done the bigger decline in deer.

Does any of this hold water? I don't know just my theory.

Bulls1
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-13 AT 09:39AM (MST)[p]Problem: low deer numbers, declining deer numbers in most every unit in NM.

The only solution that is proven to work is a drastic reduction in the number of tags.

Predator control can help also.

I do NOT approve of big increases to the price of deer tags simply because I want and we need families taking friends and other family members hunting. It must be affordable to the common man... period.

I suggest that the state charge the landowners a $50.00 fee for every converted deer authorization and $75.00 for every elk authorization.

Maybe that fee it too high, I don't know. Anytime the landowners/outfitters sell a tag this cost will be passed along to the buyer. Anytime I buy a landowner tag I would be ok with the additional cost.

Think about that for a moment please.
 
With all the factors against the mule deer in this state cutting tags makes sense in some heavily hunted areas although as said earlier they are still declining in areas that have not had any or very little harvest. Habitat degradation and predation are the two biggest impacts on the population in my area.
Drought causes a smaller food supply as well as less available drinking water. This shortage of food supply has had negative impacts on recruitment and adult survivability. Now we cant do anything about the lack of precipitation, but some other habitat manipulation such as brush management in areas that have been overtaken is beneficial.
Predation is another aspect we can impact. I believe Lions are causing more harm to our deer population than most people realize. We have found many buck carcases that were most likely lion kills. My offer would be to put a bounty on Lions or at least some kind of incentive to decrease predation on the deer.
The muleys have enough going against them. We should decrease the high Lion population to help them get through these tough times.
 
We all keep looking back at the 60's and early 70's.Yes we are over hunting the herds, But fur used to be worth money and EVERYBODY was was hunting and trapping our predators. Now our predators are out of control and the deer are paying the price.The odd's are stacked against our game all the way around. I know lot's of you guy's are trying to do your part but it's just not enough. Maybe some of these private land owners should do a drawing if you turn in twenty predator tail's like the game and fish just did with the Ibex. Just my two cents that's probably not worth that.......
 
I totally agree. Two adjoining ranches I used to hunt is a perfect example. We stopped hunting the ranches ten years ago and the deer have never rebounded. It use to be common to see 20 to 30 deer a day while hunting or gathering. Last year I saw a total of 6 deer all year. Whether through chaining,fire or logging we have got to figure out how to get more new growth browse. Like someone mentioned earlier, the time line on deer decline with the increase of elk does meet in some places but so does fire suppression and the push for old growth forests.
 
>Just my thoughts on the decline
>of mule deer in the
>west. It is not
>just a NM problem it
>is a problem in all
>of the western states.
>Is the main problem the management
>of the resource? I
>don't think so. Sure
>cutting tags in some areas
>dang sure couldn't hurt. There
>are areas however where tag
>numbers are very low or
>nonexistent and deer are still
>struggling there.
>Is the main problem the loss
>of habitat? I don't
>think this is it either.
> Yes the loss of
>habitat is having an impact,but
>deer are thriving in my
>suburban neighborhood as well as
>many others. Is it due
>to drought conditions? I
>don't buy into that either,
>there are many areas where
>water is plentiful and deer
>are still struggling.
>Some areas claim that the decline
>of mule deer is due
>to traffic related mortality or
>to many predators. I
>can show you a stretch
>of highway in CO where
>you will see carcasses every
>mile or so. It
>is definatly a shame but,
>this area probably has one
>of the best deer herds
>in the country and they
>don't seem to be disappearing.
>Predator populations you will be
>told rise and fall with
>the amount of prey.
>This has been proven by
>science over and over.
>So if our deer herds
>are down predator populations must
>be also?
>I am not a biologist (just
>an old redneck actually)but common
>sense tells me to find
>the real problem with our
>deer herds. You have to
>look at what is different
>now from the heyday of
>western mule deer hunting (50's,
>60's, 70's).
>
>ELK POPULATIONS!
>Now I am an elk hunter
>first and foremost, but when
>you look at alot of
>areas that used to be
>primarily deer they now have
>thriving elk populations and very
>few deer. Some of
>the best deer areas currently
>in the country have very
>few if any elk. Others
>have only a migratory herd
>of elk. I think
>some types of habitat deer
>will live along side of
>elk without to much concern.
>Other types if elk move
>in deer will move out.
> It seems to me
>that if you go back
>and look at historical population
>numbers of both species. You
>will see where as soon
>as elk were reintroduced to
>areas the deer numbers started
>down. The better the elk
>herds have done the bigger
>decline in deer.
>
>Does any of this hold water?
>I don't know just my
>theory.
>
>Bulls1


CO is doing pretty well with mule deer. Apples and oranges though.

I can only speak for these SE units 34, 30. There are many issues with habitat being the least of them.

Bottom line is that there are other things that impact herds down here, but, dumping 2500 tags where the success rate is only 15% shows a total lack of respect for the resource.

There is a big problem down here, and would love to know why these huge numbers of tags are dumped in the unit when the success rate and population are rapidly decreasing.
 
Great points made by many people. There are a lot of components to this problem.

Does anyone DISagree with the beleif that our deer heards are over hunted with way too many tags?
 
Just another thought maybe we start a predator club, make regions of the state charge 40$ and all club fee's will be awarded at the end of the year to the people killing the most predators?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-13 AT 10:47AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-13 AT 10:43?AM (MST)

NMPaul, I totally agree on the number of permits. As long as the budget is directly tied to tag numbers with no other income it will not change.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-13
>AT 10:43?AM (MST)
>
>NMPaul, I totally agree on the
>number of permits, as long
>as the budget is directly
>tied to tag numbers with
>no other income it will
>not change.
_______________________________

That's the reason for my thoughts on how to replace the revenue mentioned above.
 
'gambler, you're preaching to the choir. Like in my first post, we have to start thinking outside the box. Whether it be a tax or something else we can't keep doing what we've been doing. It doesn't work.
 
>I do not think point restrictions
>work. Many people walk
>up and check, and if
>it is a fork they
>walk off and continue hunting.
>


ONLY IN NM DO PEOPLE THINK LIKE THIS!
 
I love all the differences and ideas brought up!

So my next question to you is...

How do we go about bringing these ideas to the table? and make it reality.

I understand we dont want prices to go up. But let me just point something out. Pronghorn is $61 and Javelina is $66! That nasty little rodent is $66 almost twice the amount of Deer. That makes me sick! I say switch it. Make Deer $66 and Javelina $34. In doing this maybe they wouldnt have all those left over Javelina tags.

I also want to talk about the Point Restriction. Many people are saying that it wont help. Are you kidding me! Lets do a scenario...

Say we have 100 tags in a 3 point (3+ points on side) unit. All 100 people go hunting and out of that 100, 15 people kill a 3+ point buck. Say another 10 had the opportunity to kill a 2 point. But didnt due to the point restriction.

lets due the math now...

with point restriction
15 out of 100 were successful- %15
Without would be %25 success rate. sounds good right? But, thats an extra %10 that would be left to mature. Hints larger population!

Thats a total of 10 extra deer in 1 hunt multiple that by 1 archery hunt, 1 muzzy hunt and 2 rifle hunts and thats 40 bucks!

40 bucks that could have had another year to grow. Which makes for a more quality hunt in herd size and antler size.

Yes, the biggest obstacle is the hunter who shoots first and then realizes its not legal.

As far as predators go. I think G&F should issue two types of cougar licenses. One should be year round ( the old see one,shoot one). The other should be seasonal dog hunts only ( using dogs to tree or corner). This would be away to generate revenue for G&F and it also gives us a chance to finally lay into one of these mythical creatures. Of course there would have to be a quota system though.
For coyotes, there should be a bounty. Every 10 confirmed kills gets you put in for a depredation hunt(oryx,ibex,barbary,javelina,elk or deer).
 
Point restrictions are a nice idea in principle, but the difference between an 'illegal' forked horn and a 'legal' 3-point has no bearing in realistic practical management for 'mature' bucks. There are plenty of mature forked horns with no eyeguards that would be deemed illegal by such a restriction, whilst an immature basket-headed 3-4x is considered legal.

There are unfortunately also too many folk out there that shoot first, and establish 'legality' after...which is exactly why G&F eliminated the curl restriction on Bighorn several years ago, and part of the reason the point restriction for deer met a similar fate.

Cut tags? YES. Charge more for deer? YES. Elk population explosion in the West a MAJOR problem directly and negatively affecting delicate mule deer habitat? YES, YES, YES!

I and a few others have discussed this highly overlooked factor several times on here, but nobody wants to hear it...it is apparently unacceptable in the minds of simpletons to scapegoat a 'success story' by pointing out the direct problems it has caused for an animal that was for many generations considered the 'Symbol of the West'

I can trace local mule deer decline here locally in very close relationship with the elk explosion in this country over the last three decades, and the old timers noted it earlier than that.

Drought only exacerbates problem exponentially.

In any case, point restrictions will never solve the current plight of the NM mule deer....generic band-aid on a gaping and festering wound
 
>Point restrictions are a nice idea
>in principle, but the difference
>between an 'illegal' forked horn
>and a 'legal' 3-point has
>no bearing in realistic practical
>management for 'mature' bucks. There
>are plenty of mature forked
>horns with no eyeguards that
>would be deemed illegal by
>such a restriction, whilst an
>immature basket-headed 3-4x is considered
>legal.
>
>There are unfortunately also too many
>folk out there that shoot
>first, and establish 'legality' after...which
>is exactly why G&F eliminated
>the curl restriction on Bighorn
>several years ago, and part
>of the reason the point
>restriction for deer met a
>similar fate.
>
>Cut tags? YES. Charge more for
>deer? YES. Elk population explosion
>in the West a MAJOR
>problem directly and negatively affecting
>delicate mule deer habitat? YES,
>YES, YES!
>
>I and a few others have
>discussed this highly overlooked factor
>several times on here, but
>nobody wants to hear it...it
>is apparently unacceptable in the
>minds of simpletons to scapegoat
>a 'success story' by pointing
>out the direct problems it
>has caused for an animal
>that was for many generations
>considered the 'Symbol of the
>West'
>
>I can trace local mule deer
>decline here locally in very
>close relationship with the elk
>explosion in this country over
>the last three decades, and
>the old timers noted it
>earlier than that.
>
>Drought only exacerbates problem exponentially.
>
>In any case, point restrictions will
>never solve the current plight
>of the NM mule deer....generic
>band-aid on a gaping and
>festering wound
>
>

I agree with most of this, however, considering unit 34, 30 and 29 (the units I am most familiar with) habitat/elk are non starters. In 29/30 there are almost no elk. There is tons of deer habitat (desert habitat) with no deer in them.

The habitat is there. The deer are not starving. They are not surviving or reproducing.

Predators for sure impact the herd, but, the one thing we can do now is reduce or eliminate tags in these units for a period of time.
Dumping tags into a unit where the population is in a death spiral is unforgivable.
 
Indeed Paul, elk are certainly not the 'only' problem...the gross over allocation of tags under the guise of 'opportunity' is a very significant factor as well of course

Anyone interested should directly contact the G&F mule deer biologists to see if they might be able to provide any insight to the debacle?

I have spoken with such person(s) numerous times, and in each case have been left with more questions than viable answers...go ahead, give a call...it can at least provide you a bit of mild entertainment to watch the PILE they quickly build when they slam them gears into 'backpedal' :)

Good fun at Clownville
 
greatwestern... I agree with your insight in the subject of point restriction.

But, it seems like its the only way to allow bucks to mature another year or so. If there was a more complicated way of shooting mature bucks. such as, meet a certain width or trying to age a buck before you shoot. It would not work for the same reason as counting 3 points for one antler side doesnt. Some people just shoot regardless of how easy it might be.

We all need to come together and think of ways we can better our herds in quality and quantity. Im open to ideas.

I just thought of another idea!
Since some people cant follow simple rules. How about creating either a online or class of Game Maturity. You wouldnt be able to hunt without completing this course. It seems crazy but it might work.

keep it going. lets brain storm!
 
There are numerous studies that show APR's do not work. This is just one. With so many states/studies showing they do nothing for long term recovery why go down that road to come to the same conclusions?
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/73rd/Exhibits/Assembly/NR/ANR3141F.pdf

Like NMPaul I have seen to many units that are void of elk to be able to blame elk on the demise of mule deer. Where they share the same habitat it is not a far stretch to believe they are a stress on the deer herd but not a cause.
 
Hazmatt, I commend your ideas and efforts, but many of these have been pursued and have failed because of pragmatic issues....the more you open up 'Bag Limits' to interpratation, the more they are likely to backfire....disappointing? Yes. But folk WILL find a way to abuse whatever system is established.

Folk also like to feel 'included' and 'rewarded', and NM appears to be the No. 1 placator in that regard, to the direct detriment of the mule deer in this case

Simple Solution has already been recommended multiple times here and in the past...cut tags, raise fees (with the asurance that such go DIRECTLY to mule deer program)....problem is, the general public don't want NOTHIN to do with them suggestions; they want a tag, and they want it for this season, and the next... etc. and so forth

Point restrictions are the least of our concerns here, honestly...but the new Lion provision is quite nice, and ANYONE with the desire can hose a few Wile E's whenever possible...certainly doesn't hurt
 
Lots of ideas-

But no one mentioned: Mandatory -CHECK STATIONS.
a couple years back I was with a guy hunting and he harvested a decent 140" 5x and then whined about how he should have passed on that "young" deer and let it "mature".

Well I popped that jaw out, aged it and damned if that "young'en" wasn't 6.5 years old and as good as he would EVER get.

The Managers need to start MANAGING!! You can't do that from a desk in Santa Fe-
 
Dude, after a LONG fight we've only had mandatory Harvest Reports esablished recently... and it is hardly accurate. General harvest professional aging in muleys is a LONG way off for this state...shoot, we can't even manage that properly for the relative TINY handful of bighorns killed here on a yearly basis...nope, oft times its a fish bio making their first attempt at counting annual rings on a wild sheep's horns...tooth annuli? huh? :)

Also, we barely have enough money to field Wardens in the effort to mitigate outright poaching; mandatory check in for mule deer? Hmmm, I'm all for it, but where does the money come from?

Like I've said before way too many times, firing the NR's was ill advised...as well as refunding the general hunting license purchase price for unsuccessful applicants...

How do you spell P-L-A-C-A-T-I-O-N? Shoot all yer toes off one by one...soon enough, ya only got oNe left. Doh! :)

Welcome to Clownville
 
Looks like a 3x3 to me Mozey!

Greatwestern, you agree and disagree with some of the ideas here. You seem to have invested time in gathering information from numerous sources. With that knowledge. what do you think should be done?

The point of this theard is to gather as many ideas as possible and hopefully end up with a few we can pitch to G&F. I brought a few ideas to the table and I want to hear other ideas. I want to establish a better NM deer herd. I can see a lot of people are not fans of Point Restrictions. Some say there have been studies to show that they dont work. If it doesnt work, thats fine. But we still need to come with something.

I still believe there should be 2 types of Cougar tags. A see one shot one 365 days a year tag and a seasonal with dogs only.
 
The Harvest Report is a joke! G&F cant even do simple math...
All they get from that is Harvest success rates. Other than that it does nothing. They dont fly every unit every year.

They go off the old there was 1000 deer in this unit 10 years ago (2 buck to 8 doe ratio). We kill about 100 bucks a year. but, each doe has 2 offspring a year. So thats 2x800=1600 then we take that and add it to the 1000=2600 and then we minus the 100=2500. Oh yeah, lets say some dont make it through the winter, some get killed by predators, some poached, and some die of old age. How about we say that number is 500. We take 2500-500=2000 and lets say its a 4 buck to 16 doe ratio. We got enough game to open up more tags. Looks like an infestation! LOL

G&F doesnt seem to have a clue as to whats going on or what to do.
 
Many good ideas here. And many unanswered ?'s. Elk where here before they where wiped out then reintroduced. Elk have learned to evolve with man and habitat restrictions. As pointed out by Paul elk are not in some great deer habitat areas. But deer are still suffering.Tag #'s with out the deer populations to support them are just plain bad management. Point restrictions could work in certain areas,but not a solution.Seen many deer herds with just forks in gene pool, but bucks also regress back to forks from 5x5's too.
I am going to be talking with the new deer and antelope biologist as he was the one I worked with when he was running the elk LO program in my unit. I am going to pick his brain and try and get some help here on the deer herd situation. As my place is for elk,antelope and deer.I have noticed little habitat loss that would effect deer,yet numbers have declined in just 3 yrs.Am also going to share many of the good ideas being bounced here,and maybe while he is at desk for lunch he could look at MM NM forum. Many of you I have had contact with in some way and I know you know of which you speak. PS,I know I could get some flak,but am a landowner who wants to benefit from and for NM wildlife. Hank
 
i dont like the idea of point restrictions. i have chased some huge 6 points around in the past.
64406_point.jpg

a pic of one that i chased around last year.
2585dsc00154.jpg

not a very good pic but this is another one from a few years back. i couldnt imagine having to pass up either one.
 
Let me start out by saying I live in Albuquerque, NM.

G&F considered eyegaurds a point during the point restriction. Also Boone & Crockett, Pope & Young and SCI use em in the scoring process! So if you have ever scored a Buck using one of these methods or plan on it in the future, I dont want to here it. I know what we consider antler points here in the west. but, I was referenceing it from the old point restriction.

I go by the old saying " If Stevie Wonder can feel it, I score it!"
 
I keep hearing point restriction, reduced tags,raise prices, we are only seeing a few were many once were. If hunting pressure was the problem you would see ton's of doe's and few bucks. Bottom line is we have a predator problem,and it's getting worse every year. Most of the northern units have very limited tags and the population still is low.I am one of those against raising prices, I was once one of those guys who would not have been able to afford it. I know we don't want this to turn into a rich man,s sport entirely.
 
With only one Cougar Zone closed and only a few days left in the year why dont they change all Cougar tags to year round?

Here's what we should do:
Kill more cats
Kill more coyotes
Burn more country
Reduce tags
Make it rain!
 
If hunting pressure
>was the problem you would
>see ton's of doe's and
>few bucks.

If there are no bucks predators eat does.

Does are not getting bred in a timely manner due to fewer bucks and a hunt right during rut.

They are dropping fawns over a longer period of time, thus feeding the predators over a longer period of time.

The does I see have few or no fawns. I would say almost a 1-10 ratio.

reducing tags or eliminating hunts temporarily will not solve all the problems, but, these insane amounts of tags being dumped on a struggling population is like throwing gas on the fire.

Give them a chance to recover.

You always hear about revenue and lack of it. If the price of tags are not raised revenue drops. If we stay on this course, there will not be a resource to exploit in a few years.

Very short sighted thinking not doing something about it now when every indication points to the eventual eradication of our deer herd.

My comments are directed towards unit 34,30 and 29. What I am saying may not apply to all NM units, but, unit 22 was pretty unimpressive last year as well.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-13 AT 03:35PM (MST)[p]Here's what we should do:
Kill more cats.. Absolutely
Kill more coyotes..Agree but with the focus in the spring/early summer.
Burn more country.. Absolutely
Reduce tags.. Where it will do good, yes
Make it rain...let me know how that works for you.:)


Come up with ways that the budget is not completely tag dependent.
 
Paul you have a good point. There is a unit in NM were they had predator control by a some type of deal that sprayed cyanide in their mouth when they tried to eat. I know this first hand as I saw the traps ,they were well marked. Long story short deer bounced back in about 3 years. Then it stopped and the deer were right back on the decline.
 
Hey guys, since were talking about trying to save our deer herd. here are a few things that i thought of/heard that are good ideas. Just some ideas and food for thought

If we are trying to go with the point restriction then pick 3-4 units in different parts of the state and do a antler point restriction. Then make no change for 3 -4 years. Then collect the data and hunter rating survey rankings and see if it improved.

Reduce the deer tag numbers in many units and all weapons. We should go off current harvest data to support this. i believe any unit with an average under 25% to 30% across the board harvest should get looked at. As well as the trend of all units and hunts.

To assist with low game warden numbers and high poaching! is to get hunters who turn in poachers into a special draw for a high prized animal EX: ibex , 2B deer, oryx, 16D elk- This is a huge incentive, plus a cheap way of having many eyes to assist the game wardens in the field.

The predator problem in the state that is huge. is to have a predator harvest promotion going on. You harvest a coyote= 1 lottery ticket in a drawing, bobcat 3 lottery tickets in a drawing, mountain lion 5 to 10 lottery tickets in a drawing for a special draw for a high prized animal EX: ibex , 2B deer, oryx, 16D elk. You have the whole season to harvest and check in at the game and fish headquarters. May try and see one season to see if it improves the harvest. Both calling and trapping are approved.

I think to stay the same or increase the deer tag price 10 bucks, but no more. Harder for families to get out to hunt together any more. Especially with a couple kids and hunting multiple game animals.

Liked the idea of a land owner deer tag and a landowner cow elk tag @ a $25 tax and a landowner elk tag tax of $50. Each being paid by the hunter who is buying the tag.
1. Could pay for the head count flights surveys- this will improve the herd by having better head count. Then adjust tags according to counts.
2. Or take the funds and then use that to pay the landowners for problems caused by the wildlife?
3. Or use the money and get some more wardens.

Implement a program that you can harvest a cougar with your deer or elk tag, then that the cougar with you deer/elk tag upon harvest. Your deer or elk tag would be void. Unless you purchase a separate cougar tag, then can harvest both.

Maybe change the youth deer hunt to only one weekend, that is 7 days long. The deer maybe getting hunted too hard for too long? Now don't get me wrong, I think that nm offers the best youth hunts available. I'm not saying get rid of them. I can't wait to take my girls out in a few year hunting. I just don't think the deer get a break really from sept. 1- jan. 15

Look to reduce the archery jan hunts- may cause problem with animals in the winter/ breeding season. Probably chased around so much they are having a harder time making it through? Not sure never bow hunted in januaury, don't beat me up just a thought. what do you guys think?

Add a couple more line to the mandatory harvest report. Like how many points the buck or bull had. I think it would be a good data point. How many male and females of the species you were hunting that you saw? Not sure, something to help improve.

Sorry for the long winded post, just some things i have been things about. thanks to all and good luck in the draw.
 
Predators are definately a problem. Im my life I have seen the deer heards change quite a bit. As a boy big bucks were always hangin at the end of the season, then the heards really started to take a hit in the the 90s. The ranches we hunted were being hit hard by lions. I think they are the number 1 cause of the deer quality being low. The number 2 cause is the 90% of the hunters that just want to shoot something to put on the table. I admit they do taste better, but they don't get big if they get shot before they have a chance to grow. There is always the last day little bucks that get shot to avoid tag soup and I know most of us have been guilty of that at one point or another. Antler restrictions and predator control are a good start in my mind. Poaching will always be an issue. We all have to make some sacrifices inlcluding g&f if we want quality bucks.
JB
 
Got e-mail back from deer biologist and will get some info as I can here.Talking to him later in week.
Predators #1 problem.And they don't care about antlers. And I believe poaching #2.
Numbers declining even with 20-30 buck to 100 doe ratios in their counts as G&F states in general,but they continue to decline in most of NM.Sliver City area exception even with impacts brought up here.
Antler restrictions do not work for most part and not based on sound science.
Reducing number of tags discussed as has closures,but the public(I read greed me more crowd)screams @ G&F.
There are still some decent bucks around where I live,but not many deer overall.And very hard to find when hunting.... Will keep you posted after talking with him.
 
The problem with point restrictions is that people shoot first and count points later.
 

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