Time to end the point system

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17 AT 02:59PM (MST)[p]>>Lee,
>>Didn't you have multiple tags this
>>year? Or last? Like 4
>>tags total? Or more?
>
>Last year I drew an antlerless
>deer tag and bought an
>archery elk tag OTC.
>
>This year, I drew a general
>season archery buck deer permit
>and an archery buck antelope
>tag and was given a
>depredation antlerless deer tag by
>a friend and I bought
>an archery elk tag OTC.
>
>
>But why did you ask?

Cody, I'm still waiting for an answer! I'm curious to know how the number of tags I've had in the last two years has a bearing on this thread or my suggestions.

But since you asked, I'll return the favor. How many tags have you had in the last two years?. (And don't forget the non-resident tags that you drew or bought in other states.)

 

[steepndeepx]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17 AT 05:07PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17 AT 05:00?PM (MST)

Used to be Steepndeep on another forum. Haven't posted in forever but this is my favorite gripe so here goes.

Totally agree that the point system is broken, badly. Sort of surprised no one has sued the state just yet, there may be some good reasons where they take a lot of money with no reasonable outcome for success on top of some really shady partnerships with really questionable organizations.

Back to the points thing, here are the ways I believe they could dramatically impact the current system for the better, while still respecting the existing process. I think throwing it on its ear is another lawsuit simply because skipping straight to an all draw system would really be ignoring a lot of money and irreplaceable time already given with some promise of an outcome maybe not for one, but at least for those who would draw which means everyone would have a right in that suit.

Two things, maybe three that would really help:

1. Pay it up front
2. Combine Points - applicant preference
3. Change the 50/50 pools to more like 80/20

1. Pay up front- As stated in previous posts, this is not the meat or traditional party hunt of our grandparents' youth. This just isn't that anymore and do you own a gun? More than one? A 4 wheeler or a mountain bike? Pay a cable bill each month? Am I organized enough to pay upfront for all of my tags now? No. Does every hunter pay for a tag if they got one? A sheep, would you scrape together the money if you drew a sheep today? YES, anyone would. Google: "Don't buy stuff you can't afford SNL" for an awesome Saturday Night Live take on it.

Why this is critical- because so many people put in for people who only sort of care. Aunt millie, nephew Cade, boss Wilbur...no kidding, a boss. Who is that kind of suckup? Someone related to me a story about their friend who took their novice hunter boss on the Paunsagant...really? Know another guy who hunted his grandpa's tag for him...he got sick and just asked his grandson to hunt it for him please...or the girlfriend who hunts exactly never, but now that she pulled a Moose do you think she is going out - hell yes she is with boyfriend actual hunter Coop by her side. Why, why do we allow this? It is the modern version of party hunting. Keep in mind they have forced us in to hunting tags and that means then that the above examples are tag party hunting.

Forcing Cooper to pay for his own tags will be a stretch, no longer will he put in for aunt Millie, his soon to be ex girlfriend and certainly not his boss. (sorry Coop, names are fictitious so leave him alone - unless it is him) I can only dream right now of the affects of this type of shift- would 30% fewer applicants be too much to hope for? What if it were 50!!! It would be significant I can promise you that.

It is also totally worthy of legislation on the state holding the money, if that's what it takes. I feel like again I have to repeat this is NOT blocking people because of money as they would pay for it if they drew it. In fact, though I might benefit, it is silly that the state calls on a declined card. Why? When super bowl tickets go on sale do you get to reserve them and then wait a day to find the card you can max out? No. Google that SNL clip, buy what you can afford, put in for what you can afford, no more, no less. HUGE HUGE BENEFITS to everyone who is serious about this. It might totally be an organization tax, but who do we want running around the crowded Wasatch with a gun anyway? The organized careful ones. The others can fall back to poaching (probably another definitely unintended consequence of to much pressure on opportunity)

2. Combine points. This is my favorite, both favorites so far, but this one is a great idea as it cuts down the point creep while giving folks what they really want - let there be a market and let it decide.

Make it an option to combine points for a given year in any way you want towards your one or two species. Like...let's say you have 13 Mule deer points, 17 mountain goat and what you really wanted was an elk because you happened to draw some stupid dinner tag in another state and you got your goat. Sure you want another goat, who doesn't, but you are still at the doctor now and again trying to fix whatever you busted pursuing the goat and you kind of have it out of your system.

So what you do is you pool your points (they retain a marker for where they are from and go back to the original species if you don't draw)for an elk - the one thing you really want is that elk you have been seeing the past year or two in your field.

The result if you draw - you get the elk you wanted. 30 points have been burned. You are back to 0, but it was by choice.

The benefit for us: 30 points were burned. He would have drawn eventually or even immediately on either the goat or the mule deer, now we have met his need (assuming he drew with 30, maybe he won't) and 30 points are gone. Guess what else? He only put in for one draw pool, not 2. What does that mean? One less sucker in line for the Henry tag that year. Multiply that by thousands my friends.

Guess what else? In that scenario, left alone on the old system, eventually you would not likely let those points lapse and would kill both a goat and a mule deer. Tastes and desires and needs change a little bit in 20 years - am I right? Maybe you want to switch but can't, but guess what? If we allow some choice in that switch the net result is fewer animals on the ground per those hunters by choice. I can stomach letting you take an elk when the result is burned points, and now there are both an antelope and a deer in play for someone else. EVERYBODY WINS

And what if people do not, are against, and will not pool their points? Well, they may stay up there in their points and hopefully as we burn points they start to creep up to the top. OR maybe they get their something and change their mind. Either way this is allowing people to actually do something to affect their fate that also might seriously lower the pool of points. We can't increase opportunity, we CAN reduce the points between us and that opportunity. This is appealing to that human desire to have stuff now, the credit cards that we max out - this is like creating a credit card except when used it is gone.

Guess what else this would/could do? Let's say if folks put in this way when they combine and apply they only get one point for the species they applied for if they don't get it. What does that mean for them? They risked it on the species they wanted and they didn't draw and now they get one point. That's their choice, completely, but guess who benefits? The rest of us. One more potential point shaved out of the system. Times that again by some number in the thousands. Fantastic.

3. Change pool ratios/drop the max. I'm not sure about what would be best here, but assuming we stick with point 2 - which we should - then change both ratio and the ceiling. The ceiling will come down, but it is through the other points changes listed above, so drop the ceiling. Then also make it better to have points. Why is it 50/50 on the pools? why are we ok with someone waiting 18 years and some random fool 0? That is the dumbest thing ever. If it makes some kind of sense at least balance out the lucky fools with the waiting fools by changing the pool to a much higher ration, I woul dbe fine with 95 to 5 actually going to a higher pool amount.

How might this help? Well, it might discourage some to not even apply. So? what does that matter? It doesn't. If fewer people apply the points fall and eventually, maybe it is reasonable. One of the flaws of my reasoning is that DWR gets less money in application fees if we aren't applying for as much. Wouldn't we make up some of that same money (albeit not much) by not having as many fools get a tag at year 1 2 or 3? That's another problem that the DWR would have to solve, but it really has nothing to do with this argument. The point system itself should not be justification for salaries or whatever. The ratios should definitely be changed.

Lastly- take tag back from those crooked sportsmans groups, or put RMEF in charge or someone with some scruples. Embarrassing for the whole state and if you want to gripe about rich man vs. poor man it is to be done in that context, not the pay upfront.

Pay up front - reduces points in the pool by a lot
Combine points option - voluntarily reduces points by a lot
Change ratios - by allowing combiners and choosing with a bias towards higher points it helps a lot

Whew. That felt good for me anyway. See you in another 5 years when nothing will have changed except that it will be worse then.

 

[bullskin]

Imagine you arrive at a restaurant but all of the tables are full. So you put your name on the waiting list and sit in the lobby. This restaurant is so popular, yet so tiny that you wait for hours, days, even years. Until finally someone who just arrived says "Hey, at this rate, I'll be an old man before I get my steak!"

Would it be right to begin admitting diners by random lottery, leaving those who have waited longest to wait even longer than many of the new arrivals? I don't think so. The better option is to go in with your eyes open, realizing that it will be a long wait--and then pick another restaurant if the one you wanted is too full to wait your turn.

 

[wileywapati]

No it would not.
That's the bill of goods sold.

So ya start a multi year plan to cash out the top point holders. 3 years, 5 years, whatever it takes to get rid of this special interest group.

After that every hunter has the same chance every year and we aren't managing our herds for the sake of this entitled minority.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

 

[headshot05]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17 AT 09:55PM (MST)[p]Hoss I'm 31. I have personally drawn 2 archery elk bookcliffs tags, 2 archery deer bookcliffs tags, 2 9 mile antelope tags and multiple antlerless tags. So saying the point system isn't fair for younger people is a crock. It's luck of the draw.
Yeah if I was putting in for San Juan or for the Henry's id probably never of had a tag. But to each his own, people who put in their time for those top units do deserve the tags more than people putting in their first year. Bess could have had bookcliffs tags by now but he chose to go San Juan. And you think that your kid deserves a chance at a tag the same as someone whose been putting in for 22 years? Give me a break, put em in for 9 mile archery elk and they'll draw within 2 yrs.

 

[hossblur]

>Imagine you arrive at a restaurant
>but all of the tables
>are full. So you
>put your name on the
>waiting list and sit in
>the lobby. This restaurant
>is so popular, yet so
>tiny that you wait for
>hours, days, even years.
>Until finally someone who just
>arrived says "Hey, at this
>rate, I'll be an old
>man before I get my
>steak!"
>
>Would it be right to begin
>admitting diners by random lottery,
>leaving those who have waited
>longest to wait even longer
>than many of the new
>arrivals? I don't think
>so. The better option
>is to go in with
>your eyes open, realizing that
>it will be a long
>wait--and then pick another restaurant
>if the one you wanted
>is too full to wait
>your turn.


Your equating a PRIVATELY OWNED restaraunt and it's food to PUBLICALLY OWNED wildlife.

It is not the job of government to guarantee results, it is its job to level the playing field.

If a CWMU, a PRIVATELY owned business wants to have a point system, that's their right.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[hossblur]

>LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17
>AT 09:55?PM (MST)
>
>Hoss I'm 31. I have personally
>drawn 2 archery elk bookcliffs
>tags, 2 archery deer bookcliffs
>tags, 2 9 mile antelope
>tags and multiple antlerless tags.
>So saying the point system
>isn't fair for younger people
>is a crock. It's luck
>of the draw.
>Yeah if I was putting in
>for San Juan or for
>the Henry's id probably never
>of had a tag. But
>to each his own, people
>who put in their time
>for those top units do
>deserve the tags more than
>people putting in their first
>year. Bess could have had
>bookcliffs tags by now but
>he chose to go San
>Juan. And you think that
>your kid deserves a chance
>at a tag the same
>as someone whose been putting
>in for 22 years? Give
>me a break, put em
>in for 9 mile archery
>elk and they'll draw within
>2 yrs.

YES. YES. YES. I notice at 31 you haven't drawn a sheep, moose, goat, bison? Why not? Why haven't you drawn a henry tag? If its "luck of the draw" like you say, then why are you afraid of an actual draw?

You realize that you "own" nothing. Look at your tax breakdown. You are STILL paying taxes that were created to fund projects long since created? You paid for a point to increase your odds in the CURRENT system. No where did it say that system was to remain in place to the end of time.

Further. At 31, the big game age requirements were dropped for you. The requirement to pay up front to enter the draws were done away with. The requirement to choose a single species was added.
The "system" that BESS is so adimate in protecting, IS NOT THE SYSTEM THAT WAS SET UP. I don't hear BESS( Ilove the guy even though we have only met on a spiritual plane), screaming about his need to front the money. I don't hear all the old timers screaming about how the younger guys should be able to acquire points for ALL species like they did.

At 31, I will assume you don't have a 12yr old(I know its utah, we start early). Is there another GOVERNMENT system, where you tell your 12yr old they have ZERO chance at simply because of their birth date? Can you make one? DO THE MATH. If you are 11, putting in this winter for 2018. YOU HAVE ZERO odds to ever draw a pile of tags. ZERO. You have only random, dumb luck. If random dumb luck is ok for them, a hunters, Americans, owners of the peoples wildlife, then random, dumb luck is ok for you and I as well.
My boy spent all summer mowing, winter shoveling. He bought a sweet henry .17he. 11% of the cost on it went to Pittman Robertson. The State of Utah draws from that money to fund wildlife. He is a STAKEHOLDER, and a paying member of our "club". As such, his, and all the other kids claim to a chance should be equal to any of us.

At 31, random dumb luck has blessed you, why does it scare you?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[hossblur]

My great,great......grandfather was sent to the Sanpete Valley by Brigham Young to set up a community. Canute Peterson. He was the mayor, leader, boss.

Therefore, because birth date should determine hunting rights, Canute Peterson descendents should have ALL the MANTI tags. Its only right. They were there first. All you non Petersons, you all can go find other places to hunt. Via birthright, and by way of longest standing claim, the MANTI tags are ours. Under the system in place on their arrival, after all you can NEVER change systems. No one is saying you can't hunt, but, you have no claim to equality.
Maybe go hunt ducks?

Oh wait, this isn't Europe?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[cbeard]

Deja' vu all over again.

Limited resource - high demand. Any "fix" is:

1)Not going to change the big picture unless the "fix" decimates the resource for a short term benefit. This will not happen.

2)Going to be loved by some and hated by others - depending on who benefits and who's ox is being gored.

Some of you need to realize that you aren't going to hunt premium units every year or two or three unless you have a great deal of money - no matter what the "system" is.

That said, being smart in playing the application game in multiple states will get anyone a good/great hunt somewhere every 2-3 years. And being smart and committed about OTC/general areas will get you good hunts in the years you don't draw a LE tag.

The hunting picture for big game animals is probably better than it has ever been. This "trophy" mentality so many people have these days just doesn't allow them to see it.

 

[elkantlers]

I didn't read all the replies so this may have already been covered.

The way the point system is set up is that the high point holders get 50% of the tags and the other 50% is random with a little advantage given depending on the amount of points a person has. To me, the point system is a good compromise. it awards those people that have put in their time and continued to accrue points as well as gives the first time applicant a chance.

The only change I would like to see is with the OIL points. I would like them to do away with species specific points and go to a OIL point that can be used for any species and would allow a person to change which OIL animal they apply for from year to year.

 

[bullskin]

Every member of society has equal access to this public property over the course of their lifetime. That's the level playing field. But you expect equal access over the course of each hunting season--like the diner who expects equal access to the restaurant described on the very first night rather than waiting his or her turn for equal access at a later date.

I suppose either can be justified, but waiting one's own turn is an almost uniquely American, democratic notion. Americans travelers in many parts of the world are surprised to find that they can stand patiently in line for hours while a constant stream of little, old ladies of the local community cut in front of them with no concern whatsoever for rights of those waiting before them. That's privilege.

 

[wileywapati]

Y'all are buying the bait and switch this program was set up to cause.

Remember a few years back there was legislation that would've changed the law that required the rifle deer hunt to start the third Saturday of October?? This would allow for hunt dates to be shifted, split seasons to be created, and a more efficient way to get hunters on and off the mountain.

Nothing ever came of it... Why??

Well a couple thousand guys that had max points didn't want any other hunters on the mountain with them during their elk hunt they had waited 15 years to draw. They decided that ALL OF US liked the rut hunt with 90+% success rates. A couple thousand guys made that choice for almost 200,000 hunters / applicants.

Deer, this same plan would have allowed for split seasons, new hunts and a more efficient method of dispersing hunters. Well a group of dudes from The Peoples Republic Of Southern Utah got in the right ear and we have one of the most restrictive ways of distributing mule deer opportunity in the U.S. The family hunt is long gone. Unnecessarily.

No one is saying open the floodgates and go on a shooting spree. What I am saying is that there is a better way, a more efficient way but y'all saps are so damn sold on this highly restrictive high success rate style of hunting that you won't even entertain the thought.

Eventually cooloer heads will prevail, hopefully there is enough of the next generation left that still gives a chit about hunting to wise up and demand better than letting one tiny group dictate policy for the hundreds of thousands.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

 

[hossblur]

>Every member of society has equal
>access to this public property
>over the course of their
>lifetime. That's the level playing
>field. But you expect
>equal access over the course
>of each hunting season--like the
>diner who expects equal access
>to the restaurant described on
>the very first night rather
>than waiting his or her
>turn for equal access at
>a later date.
>
>I suppose either can be justified,
>but waiting one's own turn
>is an almost uniquely American,
>democratic notion. Americans travelers
>in many parts of the
>world are surprised to find
>that they can stand patiently
>in line for hours while
>a constant stream of little,
>old ladies of the local
>community cut in front of
>them with no concern whatsoever
>for rights of those waiting
>before them. That's privilege.
>

Only if at some point in that wait is the chance at a result fair across the board. The max guys today didn't sit 50+ years. The kids today, will be lucky at just 50.

Do the math


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[elkassassin]

So ww?

You wanna Lower Age Objectives down to MOTL's?








Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

 

[cbeard]

It's not the older high-point holders' fault that application #s have quadrupled since they started accumulating points. So why punish them?

 

[bullskin]

"Only if at some point in that wait is the chance at a result fair across the board. The max guys today didn't sit 50+ years."

True. As I said, one can justify either approach. What cannot be justified is changing back and forth. To change now also means that there will be people who have not waited getting tags that those who did wait will not. It is the same problem, with the shoe on the other foot.

 

[bullskin]

Solution? Provide more trophy hunting opportunities within all units by reducing hunter success rate. Require less effective weapons, restrict road access and ATVs, avoid hunting during the rut, prohibit game cameras, and close access during the season to those without tags. Sounds severe, I know, but these steps would enable Game Departments to increase hunting opportunity without impacting game herds. There will be those who don't like it. They want to hunt every year, using every new toy in the arsenal, and bag an easy trophy buck. Well, we can't have it both ways...

 

[wileywapati]

MOTL. Damn had forgotten about wet lips.

Sure.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

 

[elkassassin]

You Won't/Don't Need an LE Tag for that!



>MOTL. Damn had forgotten about wet
>lips.
>
>Sure.
>
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16










Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

 

[cbeard]

The "bonus point" system used by most states is the best approach. Gives everyone a chance but those who have more time/money invested a better chance.

The pure random draw is the second best approach.

Thankfully, the few states like WY with pure PP system also allocate a healthy (25%) number of tags to the random draw.

There is no real "solution" that will please everyone. Again, limited resource and high demand.

With a few exceptions, the system ain't broke. In fact, it's about as good as it can be. Utah has some issue unique to it that need addressing. But that's another topic.

 

[hossblur]

>"Only if at some point in
>that wait is the chance
>at a result fair across
>the board. The max guys
>today didn't sit 50+ years."
>
>
>True. As I said, one
>can justify either approach.
>What cannot be justified is
>changing back and forth.
>To change now also means
>that there will be people
>who have not waited getting
>tags that those who did
>wait will not. It
>is the same problem, with
>the shoe on the other
>foot.

No, it simply means everyone has the same shoe. Not sure how older guys get "punished"? They put in, didn't draw. Most likely would do the same without a points system. I would support a $10 additional fee per app to offset points not being bought.

Or, are you trying to sell that Idaho and Nevada are mean to older folks?

If you ACTUALLY DO THE MATH, on the oil, and handful of others, even max point holders aren't guaranteed anything. The system broke. It hasn't worked for years, is just getting worse.

I'm sure none of you pro point guys got divorced, changed jobs, or bought new trucks in the last 25yrs. I mean you would never dream of getting rid of something that didn't work.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[Utah400Elk]

Please don't shoot the messenger...But this is my thought.

What about a change to the system. People can buy a general season tag OR apply for LE/OIL.

They can build points for an LE/OIL hunt. However, if they change their minds and get a general season tag they loose those points.

If you want to wait for a LE/OIL hunt, great. You can sit on the sidelines. If you want to hunt every year, great its available but you are not building points for LE/OIL.

It comes down to the fact that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I think this would lower the demand for the OTC hunts (possibly increase quality) and limit the number of people in the point game.

It manages for both extremes. People wanting the 90% success on trophy animals can wait for their chance and People wanting to hunt every year get what they want.

IMO the real problem is the people who want both! For myself, I try and maximize my opportunity by applying for multiple states. I also limit my hunt choices to maximize my chances of drawing.

Some states I apply for premium LE (AZ unit 9 elk hunt was amazing) and in other I put in for GS tag (Wyoming General season elk).

 

[wstrntines]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-17 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p]Here's my thoughts do it similar to nevada and maybe some split seasons similar to colorado. Nevada has about 17,500 elk according to the numbers I just looked at give or take some if you can draw a tag you can do well. Utah has 68,000 according to numbers I looked at and we have alot more elk country and elk and we you can kill some great bulls here. We also have more people but I still think we can make some positive changes. So here's my solution.

1. You want to hunt archery you can hunt in the rut sept. 1st to sept. 30th. give out more tags success rates are much lower than firearm hunts. Maybe even split it into 2 archery hunts like new mexico. the change in dates would eliminate the LE hunters who didn't tag out hunting the extended archery. And if you don't want to change that make them pay $50 to hunt the extended.

2. Muzzy October 1st season 1- oct 11 2nd season oct. 15th - oct. 26th. Give out a few more tags to muzzy hunters

3. Rifle you hunt late no F##kin early tags toss them in the trash. Split em into two late hunts if you want a rifle bull than your 1000 yd out of the box gun can wait until the bulls have long finished breeding. nov. 1st to nov 30 th and 2nd season december 1st to december 30th.

4. Go in and totally overhaul the CWMU if you buy tags you lose pts. And if you buy tags you can buy a LE tag the next year. Make the CWMU land owners give a higher % of tags to the public and make them give out desirable dates to the public like they do to the paying hunters. There are very few CWMU units I would consider trying. I think the DNR had good intentions when they started the program but I think the land owners have abused it. And you should never be hosed because you can't afford a guide.

5. We could make some archery only units Wasatch, and nebo.

6. We could dump the point system completely and do like new mexico and idaho.

7. Create some youth limited entry hunts for elk.

For Deer

I'd like to see us try 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th season style like colorado. I had heard on one of the wildlife board meetings they were looking to approve a 2nd rifle season for deer. Not sure what the status is on that. Those are some thoughts. Maybe a youth LE hunt for the pauns and henries for deer.

 

[quest]

I don't see the point system going anywhere. What would be nice if they allowed you brake your points up to apply for lesser units.

 

[bullskin]

No, it is not the same shoe, unless you ignore the fact that many have already been worn for twenty years, or more.

 

[Darkcloud]

With a 50/50 split, it's the same as having a random draw system. You still have a chance! Going to a random draw solves nothing. Would it be fair if someone drew a tag every year in a random while other guys wait 20, it's the same thing. At least with points you have options, stop being so set on one specific unit if you want a tag. Study the draw odds, and your odds will go up. I have drawn 2 antelope rifle tags, 1 archery elk, 1 rifle elk, 1 mountain goat, and 1 rifle Henry mountain deer tag. The only one I had max points on was the mountain goat. I study the draw odds and move to units that have better odds. I got lucky on a "RANDOM" Henry mountains tag (5 points). I only put in for it, thinking I would have a "chance" but still earn a point for another year. ( I had other plans for that year)
My point is that you still have a chance with the current system, but your points can be used to go hunting. YOU CHOOSE TO WAIT 20 PLUS YEARS TO HUNT 1TAG.

If the waiting game is killing you, move to a lesser unit, if you have to hunt San Juan or the Henries, stand in line. We stand in lines everywhere, you choose how long you want to stand in line.
You can choose to wait 45 minutes at Texas Roadhouse or go across the street to McDonald's. It's the same thing with the draws. The problem with the hunting world, is everybody is worried about the inches. It amazes me that people will wait years longer to say they shot a deer that scores 5 inches bigger. If it means that much too you, stand in line and stop complaining

 

[ironhead]

I don't know if this has been posted or not, I didn't go back and read every post.
What about a draw where you have to choose LE or GS but not both. The trophy hunters can put in for the LE tags and the meat hunters can put in for the GS draws. This should improve the draw odds of both draws by removing competition in both draws.
The only way to increase draw odds is to add tags or reduce the number of applicants.
If you go to a process with no points there will be people that draw 3 tags in 5 years and others that draw 0 tags in 5 years. The people with 0 tags in 5 years will be wanting a point system asap and we will be right back in the same boat.

 

[fin little]

I agree with Darkcloud , I remember the draw before bonus points. It caused me to wait 15 years to draw a Pauns tag while others drew several Pauns tags during the same time frame. After that I put in for hunts I could draw and went hunting. 3 antelope tags , 2 elk tags and another random Pauns tag since 2000. 50/50 is a good compromise IMO. I don't like waiting periods

 

[hossblur]

Last I checked the public didn't own the steak at Texas roadhouse. Curious. Do you get to front of line at DMV via birth year? Another guy, draws Henry tag with 5 points, admits its dumb luck, then rails against a dumb luck random draw? Did you turn your tag in so a max guy could have it? Why not, he was waiting longer than you, that would be fair. You guys keep confusing fairness of opportunity with fairness of results. Its not gov job to level results. Or do you believe the Powerball winner should only be someone who has bought a ticket in every draw. Guys keep deflecting. Sure there are other LE units. Which sheep or moose unit are you strategizing to draw? You will not keep young guys interested in the viability of species like moose or sheep, if the door is shut on them. And more and more, especially in Utah where we seem to be fasttracking becoming Texas west, the door is shut. Bad enough for 12yr olds now. Those kids born this year, what are we leaving for them?

Or is our current generation the one that says piss on the next? Which would make ours the first to do so, all the previous doing what was best for hunting as a whole, not what's was best for "me".



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[Darkcloud]

You missed my point. There is opportunity for both right now. Max point holders and a random. If it wasn't for the random, I never would have drawn. If it wasn't for the point system, the max point holders might not have drawn that year.

When there was no point system a friend of the family drew 2 OIL tags and 1 deer and 1 antelope in a 6 year period, while WE as a family drew nothing. Seems like that's not fair to the rest of us.

Please tell me why a random would be so much better for all. We all have a chance with the way it is right now. If guys want to wait 20 plus years for 1 tag, that's their choice.
Drawing tags with the current system is not all dumb luck. If you read up on New Mexico with a no points program, you will find out the odds suck, and you don't have a clue when you will draw again.

For what it's worth, I have one point for elk, and will draw an elk tag within 5 more years with the current program. I like to go hunting, not sit and worry about why I can't have a better chance at a 20 year tag.
The best advice I can give you, apply for what you want to hunt, not where you want to.

 

[cbeard]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-17 AT 05:12PM (MST)[p]hossblur people see the point you are trying to make. Many have spent a great deal of time with it, and making points of their own.

Yet you remain doubled-down and dismissive, as if others are simply stupid and you are the only one deserving of a point of view. This is what makes forum discussions hard.

Your point is your opinion. Fine. But changing to random draws in all states is not "The Answer". It would not be fair to all. It would not make everything moonlight and roses. See dozens of above explanations for why.

 

[txhunter58]

If talking about Utah LE tags, if nothing else changed, just do away with points, your odds of drawing would go from say 10% now with your points, to 0.1% The problem is very limited tags, not the points. Rail away, but you can't deny the math. Only way to increase the odds of drawing before we die is to increase the numbers of tags. That is a separate discussion.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[hossblur]

>You missed my point. There
>is opportunity for both right
>now. Max point holders
>and a random. If
>it wasn't for the random,
>I never would have drawn.
> If it wasn't for
>the point system, the max
>point holders might not have
>drawn that year.
>
>When there was no point system
>a friend of the family
>drew 2 OIL tags and
>1 deer and 1 antelope
>in a 6 year period,
>while WE as a family
>drew nothing. Seems like
>that's not fair to the
>rest of us.
>
>Please tell me why a random
>would be so much better
>for all. We all
>have a chance with the
>way it is right now.
>If guys want to wait
>20 plus years for 1
>tag, that's their choice.
>Drawing tags with the current system
>is not all dumb luck.
> If you read up
>on New Mexico with a
>no points program, you will
>find out the odds suck,
>and you don't have a
>clue when you will draw
>again.
>
>For what it's worth, I have
>one point for elk, and
>will draw an elk tag
>within 5 more years with
>the current program. I
>like to go hunting, not
>sit and worry about why
>I can't have a better
>chance at a 20 year
>tag.
>The best advice I can give
>you, apply for what you
>want to hunt, not where
>you want to.

Its fair on that everyone in your family had identical chances to draw. What we have now, the dwr has chosen winners and losers simply by the year u were born.

With the oil tags, there will never be enough animals to meet demand. We are a week into this and not one guy has shown how the current system is beneficial to new hunters. They are great at how its good for them. Btw, the other points states, are in the same boat. Ya, new Mexico odds suck, but at least they suck fairly for new and old.

If someone can show me how, an 11yr old putting in next winter, is benefited by the points system for sheep, moose, bison, the premium deer and elk units, ill be glad to retract this whole thread. Fact is, after 25 yrs they would still be at 0%. For them, dumb luck is equal.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[newguy]

If you want to know how an eleven year old can get a sheep tag it is simple. Start aplying evey year and live a long life and they will get one, as well as a Henry Mountain deer tag if they chose to dedicate there points just to that. They have a much better chance than I do, but trust me you won't hear me ##### about it.

Mark

 

[hossblur]

>If you want to know how
>an eleven year old can
>get a sheep tag it
>is simple. Start aplying
>evey year and live a
>long life and they will
>get one, as well as
>a Henry Mountain deer tag
>if they chose to dedicate
>there points just to that.
>They have a much better
>chance than I do, but
>trust me you won't hear
>me ##### about it.
>
>Mark

Do the math. Your wrong.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[elkantlers]

>If someone can show me how,
>an 11yr old putting in
>next winter, is benefited by
>the points system for sheep,
>moose, bison, the premium deer
>and elk units, ill be
>glad to retract this whole
>thread.

The 11yr old can benefit from the points system by being added as a mentor to Grandpa's tag who happened to have enough points to be guaranteed a tag. Or, Grandpa splits his 22 points with the 11yo and they both get Late Manti elk tags.

I know it's the not the answer you were wanting, But it is a benefit.

 

[cbeard]

All the states but one or two have a bonus points system. An 11 year old is benefited from in that system just like everyone else - the earlier they start applying, the more points they accumulate, the better chance they have to draw.

The states that have preference points also have liberal tags allocated in a random draw. Again, the 11 year old benefits like everyone else - a chance to draw while at the same time building up points.

I have applied for a sheep tag in every state that has one for 17 years now. Conservatively, I have invested about $20,000 into those states' G&F departments budgets. I don't begrudge that, but I would begrudge them wiping out my investment and changing the game on me in midstream by taking away all my points. You are just saying "Too bad for you" in order give an 11 year old a minuscule chance to draw a premium tag he/she probably doesn't even attach any more significance to than a tag he/she can actually draw. And actually get to go hunt rather just play the points game.

I will not draw a sheep tag in my lifetime in most of those states. I accept that, but am willing to keep investing for a chance every year.

Your mythical 11 year old needs to accept that they may not draw sheep, moose, bison, or premium elk/deer units in their lifetime either. Just like everyone else does.

You have a hammer "solution" that in actuality solves nothing unless and until you can conjure up more sheep, moose, bison, 375 elk and 190 mule deer.

 

[pufftuffly]

>If you want to know how
>an eleven year old can
>get a sheep tag it
>is simple. Start aplying
>evey year and live a
>long life and they will
>get one, as well as
>a Henry Mountain deer tag
>if they chose to dedicate
>there points just to that.
>They have a much better
>chance than I do, but
>trust me you won't hear
>me ##### about it.
>
>Mark


Hi my name is Mark Jr. I'm 87 years old and I finally drew my Utah sheep tag, not looking for anyone's honeyhole but if someone can point me In the right direction I'd appreciate it.

 

[hossblur]

So the answer is the mentor system? So which one of "grandpas" 6 grandsons get his points?

Investment? You followed the system, which like I said in Utah was changed twice. Still haven't heard anyone begrudging not paying up front yet.

If we were talking straight oil, fine. Its expanded past that. And. That kid born today, it will be wayyy worse.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[dillon]

In fifth grade my teacher wrote, "life is not fair" on the white board and he never erased it all year.

There is no perfect answer to how to allocate big game permits. I currently have 16 elk and 14 mountain goat points in Utah that I would love to burn, but so far I have been unlucky with all my applications. I don't want my years of waiting to be washed away, but I also want my younger family members to be able to hunt trophy animals someday. I love the hunter mentor program in Utah.

Having lived in Utah most of my life and in Nevada and Wyoming more recently I have decided that I like the Wyoming system the most, but maybe it would not work for Utah or other states.

No matter what path Utah DWR takes in the coming years life will not be fair to someone.

Just my thoughts, not trying to attack anyone else's.

 

[elkassassin]

LMAO hoss!

"""I'm sure none of you pro point guys got divorced, changed jobs, or bought new trucks in the last 25yrs. I mean you would never dream of getting rid of something that didn't work."""

Took Me 20 years to save enough Money to Buy a New Truck!

Hint:

Took me less time to get a New Truck Versus get an LE Elk Tag!

By the Time I get a Tag,200" Bulls should be the Cream of the Crop!









Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

 

[Loner]

I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks to not hunt elk nor deer there this year. I also paid Colorado for points this year. States that have figured out that cash cow will not give it up.

Have to say I am a fan of your writing Hossblur . The creative writing you did about an Antelope Island deer hunt a few years ago was your high water mark.

 

[hossblur]

>I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks
>to not hunt elk nor
>deer there this year.
>I also paid Colorado for
>points this year. States
>that have figured out that
>cash cow will not give
>it up.
>
>Have to say I am a
>fan of your writing Hossblur
>. The creative writing
>you did about an Antelope
>Island deer hunt a few
>years ago was your high
>water mark.

You should check out Penthouse, my stuff in forum is legendary!

I find it interesting how we live in the shadow of guys who set up everything we have today, but our answer is #!$@ those little turds!


But, ill let u guys get back to chastising flat brimmers for being the me first, participation trophy generation.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[elkassassin]

Hey hoss?

You Wear a FLATTY?






Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

 

[hossblur]

Ain't anything on me flat!

Except my azz, but That's bad genes.

And I've noticed other flat things in the mornings that weren't always that way!

Bess, now I'm confused

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[deadibob]

>>I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks
>>to not hunt elk nor
>>deer there this year.
>>I also paid Colorado for
>>points this year. States
>>that have figured out that
>>cash cow will not give
>>it up.
>>
>>Have to say I am a
>>fan of your writing Hossblur
>>. The creative writing
>>you did about an Antelope
>>Island deer hunt a few
>>years ago was your high
>>water mark.
>
>You should check out Penthouse, my
>stuff in forum is legendary!
>
>
>I find it interesting how we
>live in the shadow of
>guys who set up everything
>we have today, but our
>answer is #!$@ those little
>turds!
>
>
>But, ill let u guys get
>back to chastising flat brimmers
>for being the me first,
>participation trophy generation.
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Hoss you cry like a f'n snowflake. Nobody is saying &*^% those little turds. They have much more opportunity than any of us older folks do. Guys my age weren't hunting deer at 12 or even 14. There were no youth only tags back then. We couldn't even hunt small game until 12.

Your first post you talk about sitting around the campfire with your kids. You should have stopped there you lucky little baz#%^d. I never even had the opportunity to sit around the campfire with my dad. LIFE'S NOT FAIR, BOO F(&&^ING HOO! My entire hunting career with my dad was half a day. Do I cry IT ISN'T FAIR!? No. Life isn't fair and your daddy should have taught you that. Next time you are around the campfire with your kids, be sure and teach them the concept about the fairness of life. There are many more opportunities for kids to hunt than ever before. Suck it up, be a man and focus on the positive things because there is no way to fix this supply and demand situation.

I will never be able to hunt Tigers in India or Tasmanian Tigers. Never be able to import a polar bear and will likely never be able to hunt African Lion unless I make a ton of money in the next few years. I will never be able to hunt Passenger pigeons or shoot Bison by the thousands. Do I begrudge the old-timers that were able to do this? No, my hat is off to those who were able to do those things.

You should be ashamed of the entitlement attitude you are displaying here.


A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun ;-)

 

[Deerlove]

Of course states dont want to give up the $, that ok. Going back to 73s post about more tags and primitive weapons and season changes are the best options.

 

[hossblur]

>>>I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks
>>>to not hunt elk nor
>>>deer there this year.
>>>I also paid Colorado for
>>>points this year. States
>>>that have figured out that
>>>cash cow will not give
>>>it up.
>>>
>>>Have to say I am a
>>>fan of your writing Hossblur
>>>. The creative writing
>>>you did about an Antelope
>>>Island deer hunt a few
>>>years ago was your high
>>>water mark.
>>
>>You should check out Penthouse, my
>>stuff in forum is legendary!
>>
>>
>>I find it interesting how we
>>live in the shadow of
>>guys who set up everything
>>we have today, but our
>>answer is #!$@ those little
>>turds!
>>
>>
>>But, ill let u guys get
>>back to chastising flat brimmers
>>for being the me first,
>>participation trophy generation.
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>
>Hoss you cry like a f'n
>snowflake. Nobody is saying &*^%
>those little turds. They have
>much more opportunity than any
>of us older folks do.
>Guys my age weren't hunting
>deer at 12 or even
>14. There were no youth
>only tags back then. We
>couldn't even hunt small game
>until 12.
>
>Your first post you talk about
>sitting around the campfire with
>your kids. You should have
>stopped there you lucky little
>baz#%^d. I never even had
>the opportunity to sit around
>the campfire with my dad.
>LIFE'S NOT FAIR, BOO F(&&^ING
>HOO! My entire hunting career
>with my dad was half
>a day. Do I cry
>IT ISN'T FAIR!? No. Life
>isn't fair and your daddy
>should have taught you that.
>Next time you are around
>the campfire with your kids,
>be sure and teach them
>the concept about the fairness
>of life. There are many
>more opportunities for kids to
>hunt than ever before. Suck
>it up, be a man
>and focus on the positive
>things because there is no
>way to fix this supply
>and demand situation.
>
>I will never be able to
>hunt Tigers in India or
>Tasmanian Tigers. Never be able
>to import a polar bear
>and will likely never be
>able to hunt African Lion
>unless I make a ton
>of money in the next
>few years. I will never
>be able to hunt Passenger
>pigeons or shoot Bison by
>the thousands. Do I begrudge
>the old-timers that were able
>to do this? No, my
>hat is off to those
>who were able to do
>those things.
>
>You should be ashamed of the
>entitlement attitude you are displaying
>here.
>
>
>A BULLET TRAIN! The only other
>thing besides a good guy
>with a gun, that will
>stop a bad guy with
>a gun ;-)

Must have hit a nerve huh? To be clear, you big mouth, you had 250,000 tags, no draw, hunt 3 seasons state wide. So check your self. My kids never met my dad, he's been dead 14 years, my oldest is 11. Funny you say your not about #%!$ the kids, then you write 3 paragraphs saying /$?& the kids.

You have elk because older guys cared about generations to come. Same as EVERY ANIMAL YOU HUNT. As well as 99% of the public land you hunt. "I deserve tags because I'm older" IS THE DEFINITION OF ENTITLEMENT. Like I said, you loved the changes to the system that benefited YOU, but now whine like a 2 yr old when its pointed out.

So take it for what its worth you disrespectful loud mouth.

Feel free to stop by whenever you build up the courage, or sit in front of your keyboard and scare everyone.

BTW, my tag line was a quote from Wayne LaPierre, so it really tore me up when you ripped my "original" line.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[deadibob]

>>>>I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks
>>>>to not hunt elk nor
>>>>deer there this year.
>>>>I also paid Colorado for
>>>>points this year. States
>>>>that have figured out that
>>>>cash cow will not give
>>>>it up.
>>>>
>>>>Have to say I am a
>>>>fan of your writing Hossblur
>>>>. The creative writing
>>>>you did about an Antelope
>>>>Island deer hunt a few
>>>>years ago was your high
>>>>water mark.
>>>
>>>You should check out Penthouse, my
>>>stuff in forum is legendary!
>>>
>>>
>>>I find it interesting how we
>>>live in the shadow of
>>>guys who set up everything
>>>we have today, but our
>>>answer is #!$@ those little
>>>turds!
>>>
>>>
>>>But, ill let u guys get
>>>back to chastising flat brimmers
>>>for being the me first,
>>>participation trophy generation.
>>>
>>>
>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>is a good guy with
>>>a gun"
>>
>>Hoss you cry like a f'n
>>snowflake. Nobody is saying &*^%
>>those little turds. They have
>>much more opportunity than any
>>of us older folks do.
>>Guys my age weren't hunting
>>deer at 12 or even
>>14. There were no youth
>>only tags back then. We
>>couldn't even hunt small game
>>until 12.
>>
>>Your first post you talk about
>>sitting around the campfire with
>>your kids. You should have
>>stopped there you lucky little
>>baz#%^d. I never even had
>>the opportunity to sit around
>>the campfire with my dad.
>>LIFE'S NOT FAIR, BOO F(&&^ING
>>HOO! My entire hunting career
>>with my dad was half
>>a day. Do I cry
>>IT ISN'T FAIR!? No. Life
>>isn't fair and your daddy
>>should have taught you that.
>>Next time you are around
>>the campfire with your kids,
>>be sure and teach them
>>the concept about the fairness
>>of life. There are many
>>more opportunities for kids to
>>hunt than ever before. Suck
>>it up, be a man
>>and focus on the positive
>>things because there is no
>>way to fix this supply
>>and demand situation.
>>
>>I will never be able to
>>hunt Tigers in India or
>>Tasmanian Tigers. Never be able
>>to import a polar bear
>>and will likely never be
>>able to hunt African Lion
>>unless I make a ton
>>of money in the next
>>few years. I will never
>>be able to hunt Passenger
>>pigeons or shoot Bison by
>>the thousands. Do I begrudge
>>the old-timers that were able
>>to do this? No, my
>>hat is off to those
>>who were able to do
>>those things.
>>
>>You should be ashamed of the
>>entitlement attitude you are displaying
>>here.
>>
>>
>>A BULLET TRAIN! The only other
>>thing besides a good guy
>>with a gun, that will
>>stop a bad guy with
>>a gun ;-)
>
>Must have hit a nerve huh?
> To be clear, you
>big mouth, you had 250,000
>tags, no draw, hunt 3
>seasons state wide. So
>check your self. My
>kids never met my dad,
>he's been dead 14 years,
>my oldest is 11.
>Funny you say your not
>about #%!$ the kids, then
>you write 3 paragraphs saying
>/$?& the kids.
>
>You have elk because older guys
>cared about generations to come.
> Same as EVERY ANIMAL
>YOU HUNT. As well as
>99% of the public land
>you hunt. "I deserve
>tags because I'm older" IS
>THE DEFINITION OF ENTITLEMENT.
>Like I said, you loved
>the changes to the system
>that benefited YOU, but now
>whine like a 2 yr
>old when its pointed out.
>
>
>So take it for what its
>worth you disrespectful loud mouth.
>
>
>Feel free to stop by whenever
>you build up the courage,
>or sit in front of
>your keyboard and scare everyone.
>
>
>BTW, my tag line was a
>quote from Wayne LaPierre, so
>it really tore me up
>when you ripped my "original"
>line.
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Hoss' Ass. You are just full of assumptions aren't you. Where did I say I loved the changes? Sorry but I and many others were at the meetings fighting the fish and game when they rammed the point system down our throats. I still have the handouts from that meeting and they guaranteed everyone would draw a limited elk tag within 5 years. Does anybody else remember that line they tried to sell us?

I won't get into details here because you have them in my response to your pm. You also have my name and number. I told you how to find me for any reason you like.

YOU, YOUR KIDS, NEPHEWS AND OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS DON'T GET TO CUT IN FRONT OF THE LINE BECAUSE YOUR POOR OLE DADDY DIED! MOST EVERYONE HERE HAS A STORY EQUAL TO OR WORSE THAN YOURS. SORRY DUDE, LIFE ISN'T FAIR! I WATCHED MY PARENTS GET MURDERED WHEN I WAS NINE. DO I GET TO GO TO THE FRONT OF THE LINE BECAUSE MY 5 KIDS NEVER GOT TO HUNT WITH THEIR GRANDPA? No I don't, and only an entitlement mentality would expect or even mention that.
A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun ;-)

 

[hossblur]

I am withdrawing my previous post about bob.

After exchanging F U on IM seems I found a guy I respect.

Hope you guys enjoyed our dust up, but I'm done, he's a stand up guy.

That means I got more time for BESS now!?




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[deadibob]

>I am withdrawing my previous post
>about bob.
>
>After exchanging F U on IM
>seems I found a guy
>I respect.
>
>Hope you guys enjoyed our dust
>up, but I'm done, he's
>a stand up guy.
>
>That means I got more time
>for BESS now!?
>
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Back at ya. I'll get rid of the bullet train too ;-)
A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun ;-)

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-17 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]I agree the point system needs a lot of work not get rid of it look at the antelope island draw results what a flipping joke a person drew that tag with 0 points max point was 21 it's a joke and we all know this and the season dates are a joke also that really needs fixed.

 

[elkantlers]

>I agree the point system needs
>a lot of work not
>get rid of it look
>at the antelope island draw
>results what a flipping joke
>a person drew that tag
>with 0 points max point
>was 21 it's a joke
>and we all know this
>and the season dates are
>a joke also that really
>needs fixed.


Isn't this exactly what Hoss is pushing for? No points drawing. lol

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-17 AT 02:38PM (MST)[p]sorry read my post it needs work we need to have a points system to many people have a lot to loose now if everyone didn't care about there points yeah get rid of it but we all know there is a lot of people with 15 or more points that won't just piss them away

 

[txhunter58]

I have a less "pipe dream" request. I just want them to stop letting us NRs put in for any/all hunts. I was up to about 10% odds on an elk tag I wanted when they opened it up to everyone for all species and my odds dropped to about 2%.

Fact: NR can only apply for ONE hunt. Yes, they let us put in for more than one, but if you actually get picked on a hunt, you are out of the lottery for any other hunts. So in reality, we get to apply for just one tag, we just don't know which one that might be.

If you are mainly trying to draw one species in your lifetime (like I am: elk), your Odds are much worse under the current system. Same is true if you are mainly a deer hunter.

Why can't they let everyone apply for points (so the state still gets their money), but just let us only apply for one tag. Residents can only apply for one species for the reasons I mentioned above and they don't want even worse odds.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Elkslayer2015]

I agree txhunter58 if you do it for one they need to do for all

 

[theox]

k first off its not gonna happen. there is always a chance to draw right now and there just isnt enough tags. but one thing you can do is put aside 1000$ every year and after 10-15 years you have the money to buy a once in a lifetime elk tag in many areas. some areas you maybe able to pull off a lnadowner/cwmu etc twice. so while it sucks waiting in line and a few get lucky every year random tags are less chance at drawin every year. Utah has a great point system and you can get lucky .... point is supplky and demand isnt going anywhere anytime soon. there really isnt a much better option. colorado sucks because the younger gen might as well not even apply for hard to draw tags cause they literally wont ever draw them. Utah you actually have a chance.. i drew moose with 1 pt. Im lucky sob and i cherished that hunt and still do!

 

[bullskin]

And the kids today, if given immediate, equal access, would not have waited twenty years like those before them...

 

[fullthrottle]

^^^well said^^^ point systems like Utah, Wyoming, Nevada are great and shouldn't go anywhere. Lucky still can get lucky and the loyal point investors get something for there diligence. What's not fair about that. Everyone gets something they want, a points system and a random system all in one.