Watch today's Wildlife Board meeting

[Broadside_Shot]

So the trend shows that the number of Mature Bulls being harvested has slowly gone down over 10 years.

And the number of Spikes killed have more than doubled in 10 years.

And Cows are roughly the same and are still being killed and we are not at Herd objective.

I would think that the LE number are really close because of mandatory reporting but the spikes in theory could be 4 times higher.

The spike hunt has definitely increased opportunity which I like. but not to the detriment to the rest of the herd. I think they were forced to lower LE tags due to the spike hunt.

it seems like we can find the tipping point and maybe live slightly below it for a while. I think a Book Cliffs Elk hunt could try and regulate the number of spike tags issued some how and maybe cut the number of killed spikes in half, no cow tags until at objective. and still issue the same for LE and we may start to turn the other way over the next 10 years.

It becomes slippery and scary for the DWR to loose what yearly income they depend on every year. It would be hard to cut your pay in hopes to grow a Wild Herd. Would any of us do it?

I think money overrules at the time and we are so far down that road that they continue the same trend and over 50 years the ones making the rules now will no longer be around.

Sad but True when Public Wildlife became a Money Maker vs a need to Survive.

 

[Tikka]

?Vanilla thanks for the link

so look at this

2009-298
2010-342
2011-280
2012-250
2013-330
2014-255
2015-312
2016-410

so your right about the numbers but you miss read the top of it this is total bulls killed out there It's not just LE big bulls


In 2016
There was 1158 total bull elk hunters that includes spike hunter and LE big bull hunters

There was 245 spikes Harvested

There was 137 LE big bulls harvested

There was 117 Antlerless Harvested

Now lets go back to 2009 because I couldn't find a spike hunt in 2008

There was 600 total bull elk hunters that included spike hunters and LE big bull hunters

There was 111 spikes harvested

There was 165 LE big bull harvested

there was 95 Antlerless harvested


Now go to 2008 no spike hunt

218 total LE bull elk hunters

177 LE big bull elk harvested

128 Antlerless harvested

spikes Zero?

What's interesting about 2016 Elkslayer2015 is my two boys and myself killed 3 spikes out there and not one of us received a survey call... So I know that there were at least (3) spikes not accounted for in that number... So I'm betting there's a lot more not accounted for than just us....

 

[slamdunk]

>I know that there were
>at least (3) spikes not
>accounted for in that number...
>So I'm betting there's a
>lot more not accounted for
>than just us....

I have often wondered this same thing over the year's, as I have had success but didn't receive a call, survey letter or go through a check station, yet I read "total bucks harvested" on the unit I was successful on.

This data isn't even factual, just "close" at best.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

So if they go off of projections. and I might be reading it wrong

Elk Slayer said he found out 25% of the people are contacted. and they have no idea where I hunted unless they contacted me and no idea if I killed anything.

So in 2016. 1,158 people were Contacted. 245 Reported a Spike Kill
In Reality it is 4,632 people were really out there and 980 spikes were killed.

They only issue 15,000 Spike tags for the State so almost 31% of the people (1/3) were in the Book Cliffs?

 

[slamdunk]

>So if they go off of
>projections. and I might
>be reading it wrong
>
>Elk Slayer said he found out
>25% of the people are
>contacted. and they have no
>idea where I hunted unless
>they contacted me and no
>idea if I killed anything.
>
>
>So in 2016. 1,158 people were
>Contacted. 245 Reported a Spike
>Kill
>In Reality it is 4,632 people
>were really out there and
>980 spikes were killed.
>
>They only issue 15,000 Spike tags
>for the State so almost
>31% of the people (1/3)
>were in the Book Cliffs?
>

Perfect reason to take their data with a grain of salt versus gospel.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Annual Harvest Surveys
Limited-entry harvest for all big game species were determined by mandatory online/telephone
reporting.

Antlerless deer, elk, pronghorn, and moose harvest were determined by voluntary
web/telephone reporting. General-season deer and elk harvest were determined through mixed
mode web/telephone surveys of randomized, statistically valid samples of approximately 25% of
total license holders.


Based on results from the surveys and online reports, harvest data were projected by the total
number of permits to obtain estimates of the number of animals harvested, number of hunters
afield, and number of days hunted. To minimize error, harvest data for individual hunts, units,
and statewide totals were projected separately. As such, the sum of hunt estimates and unit
estimates may not always equal the statewide totals. Additionally, success rates are calculated
from the raw data and may not always equal the projected harvest divided by the projected
number of hunters afield.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18 AT 04:18PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18 AT 04:17?PM (MST)

Broadside Spot on I agree with you everything you said in your last 2 post...

 

[elkassassin]

>?Vanilla thanks for the link
>
>so look at this
>
>2009-298
>2010-342
>2011-280
>2012-250
>2013-330
>2014-255
>2015-312
>2016-410
>
>so your right about the numbers
>but you miss read the
>top of it this is
>total bulls killed out there
>It's not just LE big
>bulls
>
>
>In 2016
>There was 1158 total bull elk
>hunters that includes spike hunter
>and LE big bull hunters
>
>
>There was 245 spikes Harvested
>
>There was 137 LE big bulls
>harvested
>
>There was 117 Antlerless Harvested
>
>Now lets go back to 2009
>because I couldn't find a
>spike hunt in 2008
>
>There was 600 total bull elk
>hunters that included spike hunters
>and LE big bull hunters
>
>
>There was 111 spikes harvested
>
>There was 165 LE big bull
>harvested
>
>there was 95 Antlerless harvested
>
>
>Now go to 2008 no spike
>hunt
>
>218 total LE bull elk hunters
>
>
>177 LE big bull elk harvested
>
>
>128 Antlerless harvested
>
>spikes Zero?
>
>What's interesting about 2016 Elkslayer2015 is
>my two boys and myself
>killed 3 spikes out there
>and not one of us
>received a survey call... So
>I know that there were
>at least (3) spikes not
>accounted for in that number...
>So I'm betting there's a
>lot more not accounted for
>than just us....

The Numbers Mean Nothing Unless every Hunt/Hunters Success is Known!

Skewed!

Just the way somebody wants it!

Or is it:

SCREWED!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[elkassassin]

>Spike hunting isn't what's killing it.
>
>
>

>

Over Spike Hunting is Part of the Problem!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Exactly Elkassassin

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]>Annual Harvest Surveys
>Limited-entry harvest for all big game
>species were determined by mandatory
>online/telephone
>reporting.
>
> Antlerless deer, elk, pronghorn, and
>moose harvest were determined by
>voluntary
>web/telephone reporting. General-season deer and elk
>harvest were determined through mixed
>
>mode web/telephone surveys of randomized, statistically
>valid samples of approximately 25%
>of
>total license holders.
>
>
>Based on results from the surveys
>and online reports, harvest data
>were projected by the total
>
>number of permits to obtain estimates
>of the number of animals
>harvested, number of hunters
>afield, and number of days hunted.
>To minimize error, harvest data
>for individual hunts, units,
>and statewide totals were projected separately.
>As such, the sum of
>hunt estimates and unit
>estimates may not always equal the
>statewide totals. Additionally, success rates
>are calculated
>from the raw data and may
>not always equal the projected
>harvest divided by the projected
>
>number of hunters afield.

Good reasons on the DWR's end for mandatory reporting! It makes data more accurate and real.

But I think there are also good reasons on the hunter's end for mandatory reporting, ie: It would give us all a chance for input and, thus, a sense of involvement in wildlife management, it would require us to pay more attention to details of the hunt, and it would obligate us to make the report in order to apply the following year. Wildlife management is a two-way street, managers and hunters!

 

[elkassassin]

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18
>AT 07:35?PM (MST)
>
>>Annual Harvest Surveys
>>Limited-entry harvest for all big game
>>species were determined by mandatory
>>online/telephone
>>reporting.
>>
>> Antlerless deer, elk, pronghorn, and
>>moose harvest were determined by
>>voluntary
>>web/telephone reporting. General-season deer and elk
>>harvest were determined through mixed
>>
>>mode web/telephone surveys of randomized, statistically
>>valid samples of approximately 25%
>>of
>>total license holders.
>>
>>
>>Based on results from the surveys
>>and online reports, harvest data
>>were projected by the total
>>
>>number of permits to obtain estimates
>>of the number of animals
>>harvested, number of hunters
>>afield, and number of days hunted.
>>To minimize error, harvest data
>>for individual hunts, units,
>>and statewide totals were projected separately.
>>As such, the sum of
>>hunt estimates and unit
>>estimates may not always equal the
>>statewide totals. Additionally, success rates
>>are calculated
>>from the raw data and may
>>not always equal the projected
>>harvest divided by the projected
>>
>>number of hunters afield.
>
>Good reasons on the DWR's end
>for mandatory reporting! It makes
>data more accurate and real.
>
>
>But I think there are also
>good reasons on the hunter's
>end for mandatory reporting, ie:
>It would give us all
>a chance for input and,
>thus, a sense of involvement
>in wildlife management, it would
>require us to pay more
>attention to details of the
>hunt, and it would obligate
>us to make the report
>in order to apply the
>following year. Wildlife management is
>a two-way street, managers and
>hunters!

And Why Hasn't this already been Happening for the last 40 Years?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[notdonhunting]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18 AT 09:57PM (MST)[p]I am still trying to wrap my head around the comment that by only surveying 25 percent of the spike hunters the total kill amount of spikes could be 4 times higher if they survey all spike hunters.
Are the hunters that did not get surveyed 4 times better hunters than the ones that got surveyed.
30 percent of 25 percent is still 30percent (give or take a few percent) of 100 percent.
You guys are engineers you know the math figures.
I agree it would be nice if 100 percent reporting on success but that would never happen I know guys that get the survey call now and they do not want to take the time to answer the questions so they say they are not home.
I do not know so this is a honest question what states right now require 100 percent success/notsuccessful reporting and how do they require you to do it.
I apologize right now if I have offended anyone, that is not my intent but with what the DWR has the authority to do I really believe they are doing all they can do on reporting success.
That is my 2 cents.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

By saying they only survey 25% that means they only ask 1/4 of the people who hunted so they assume a projection and are playing the odds that if they surveyed the rest 75% of the people that they would get relativly the same results so there numbers are just projections.

Kinda like the election when they predict the democrats will win the state because the early votes show democrat then after 5 when the republicans get off work and the shift the votes. Ha. Thats why actual counts matter and not projections.

What if by chance the 25% just so happened to be unsuccessful from there surveys. They would assume the rest of the 75% did the same which might not be the case.

 

[elkantlers]

Ya, and 90% of statistics are wrong 50% of the time.

 

[elkassassin]

If they could do a 100% Survey on Harvest Facts in the Book Cliffs this year it's sure gonna HURT!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[notdonhunting]

Broadside
You are right but you are playing the "what if". What if can go both ways.
Yes the election surveys are skewed. The surveys can be skewed by what time of day they make the calls or by what phone prefixes they call and you can never really know what a person decides until they mark the box decisions can change minute by minut.
But too say the total amount of spikes killed could be 4 times higher is stretching the survey.

I am still interested what states require a 100 percent report from hunters on there success or lack of success and how it is conducted if required.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

This is how the DWR does their Calculations, Not mine. I am going off of their Model. I do not agree with it. I think mandatory reporting should be done. Its the only way to know exactly.

1158 People got Surveyed is 25% of the people that means the are speculating that there are 4,632 total.

245 Spikes were killed from 25% of the people (1,158) = .21% (Success Rate)

By Projections:
980 Spikes were killed from 100% of the people (4,632) = .21% (Success rate)

I am following what the DWR uses to calculate Harvest and animal numbers. It is just speculation which I don't like at all.

The point is how many elk get Killed not Success Rate off of Projections.

After All I could be wrong. I only had a B average through College... Ha Ha

 

[elkfromabove]

>>LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18
>>AT 07:35?PM (MST)
>>
>>>Annual Harvest Surveys
>>>Limited-entry harvest for all big game
>>>species were determined by mandatory
>>>online/telephone
>>>reporting.
>>>
>>> Antlerless deer, elk, pronghorn, and
>>>moose harvest were determined by
>>>voluntary
>>>web/telephone reporting. General-season deer and elk
>>>harvest were determined through mixed
>>>
>>>mode web/telephone surveys of randomized, statistically
>>>valid samples of approximately 25%
>>>of
>>>total license holders.
>>>
>>>
>>>Based on results from the surveys
>>>and online reports, harvest data
>>>were projected by the total
>>>
>>>number of permits to obtain estimates
>>>of the number of animals
>>>harvested, number of hunters
>>>afield, and number of days hunted.
>>>To minimize error, harvest data
>>>for individual hunts, units,
>>>and statewide totals were projected separately.
>>>As such, the sum of
>>>hunt estimates and unit
>>>estimates may not always equal the
>>>statewide totals. Additionally, success rates
>>>are calculated
>>>from the raw data and may
>>>not always equal the projected
>>>harvest divided by the projected
>>>
>>>number of hunters afield.
>>
>>Good reasons on the DWR's end
>>for mandatory reporting! It makes
>>data more accurate and real.
>>
>>
>>But I think there are also
>>good reasons on the hunter's
>>end for mandatory reporting, ie:
>>It would give us all
>>a chance for input and,
>>thus, a sense of involvement
>>in wildlife management, it would
>>require us to pay more
>>attention to details of the
>>hunt, and it would obligate
>>us to make the report
>>in order to apply the
>>following year. Wildlife management is
>>a two-way street, managers and
>>hunters!
>
>And Why Hasn't this already been
>Happening for the last 40
>Years?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!

I don't know, but I could guess, which I won't do because it makes no difference going forward.

 

[elkfromabove]

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18
>AT 07:35?PM (MST)
>
>>Annual Harvest Surveys
>>Limited-entry harvest for all big game
>>species were determined by mandatory
>>online/telephone
>>reporting.
>>
>> Antlerless deer, elk, pronghorn, and
>>moose harvest were determined by
>>voluntary
>>web/telephone reporting. General-season deer and elk
>>harvest were determined through mixed
>>
>>mode web/telephone surveys of randomized, statistically
>>valid samples of approximately 25%
>>of
>>total license holders.
>>
>>
>>Based on results from the surveys
>>and online reports, harvest data
>>were projected by the total
>>
>>number of permits to obtain estimates
>>of the number of animals
>>harvested, number of hunters
>>afield, and number of days hunted.
>>To minimize error, harvest data
>>for individual hunts, units,
>>and statewide totals were projected separately.
>>As such, the sum of
>>hunt estimates and unit
>>estimates may not always equal the
>>statewide totals. Additionally, success rates
>>are calculated
>>from the raw data and may
>>not always equal the projected
>>harvest divided by the projected
>>
>>number of hunters afield.
>
>Good reasons on the DWR's end
>for mandatory reporting! It makes
>data more accurate and real.
>
>
>But I think there are also
>good reasons on the hunter's
>end for mandatory reporting, ie:
>It would give us all
>a chance for input and,
>thus, a sense of involvement
>in wildlife management, it would
>require us to pay more
>attention to details of the
>hunt, and it would obligate
>us to make the report
>in order to apply the
>following year. Wildlife management is
>a two-way street, managers and
>hunters!

After thinking about it further, I can think of several other reasons for doing a mandatory survey, especially if it were online and done by a 3rd party. It would give both parties a common starting point to discuss issues, the info couldn't get lost in the translation since there isn't one, it would give hunters more confidence in the DWR's data, it would generate more discussions based on science rather than emotions, but it would give the hunter a one on one chance to explain his/her satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the hunt.

So, even if the numbers don't change all that much, at least we'll know what they are and will have a chance to participate in the direction of wildlife management outside of the RAC's and Wildlife Board meetings.

 

[Vanilla]

Elkslayer2015, I did misread the statement, so there are many less bulls being killed than my numbers would have shown, and that means that the chasm between the numbers and what a few others are saying from "experience" is even larger.

"So in 2016. 1,158 people were Contacted. 245 Reported a Spike Kill
In Reality it is 4,632 people were really out there and 980 spikes were killed.

They only issue 15,000 Spike tags for the State so almost 31% of the people (1/3) were in the Book Cliffs?" Broadside_shot

No, those are projections if I'm understanding it correctly. It was not 1,158 people contacted. 1.158 was the projected number of hunters based upon the numbers they contacted. And 245 was not the reported number of spikes killed, but the projected number based upon the actual number reported. Right? Or am I wrong?

On another note: One thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated. That said, the processes used for these projections are also proven methods and can be relied upon to be fairly accurate. They won't be perfect, but mandatory reporting won't be perfect either. You will always miss some. But to think that if they survey 25% of the hunters and there is going to be a large difference between them and the other 75% is rather misguided. Is it possible? Yes. Is it statistically probable? No, not even close.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

Ok, So those Are the Projected Numbers.

If that's the case than they only contacted 290 people and projected it to be 1,158

I understood it as they actually contacted 1,158

 

[Broadside_Shot]

So from my personal experience in the field on the Book Cliffs from when the spike hunt started. I believe the quality has gone down.

It seemed like it took 5 years into it before I saw the effects.

By going off the numbers.

Cow harvest has stayed the same but the herd is not growing so we have found the number of cows to harvest to keep the herd stagnant.
Less cow harvest will grow it, more cow harvest will decrease it at this point

Mature Bulls harvest is slowly declining. I know tags have been slowly cut out of the LE rifle season over the years which is why I think these numbers show the trend.

Spike harvest has doubled in the last 10 years so this to me is a huge factor in what I am seeing in person. I think we have gone way over the tipping point.

I try to be a realist when I look at these things and try to keep my own agenda out of it. I support Rifle, Muzzy and Archery hunting. I support Trophy and Opportunity hunters.

The single most important factor is the Elk Herd and we have to do better at finding the numbers of tags to issue to satisfy each hunter when they draw.

 

[Vanilla]

>The single most important factor is
>the Elk Herd and we
>have to do better at
>finding the numbers of tags
>to issue to satisfy each
>hunter when they draw.


Agreed, so long as those hunter's expectations we are trying to satisfy are realistic. I'm not one that thinks we should have twice as many tags and everyone should be able to kill a 400 inch bull from the road. Unfortunately, many people that sit and complain carry these types of ridiculous expectations for how things should be.

I've seen enough complaining about particular units on these internet forums over the years and just having them not line up with reality that I always tend to challenge them from the outset until proven otherwise. That is the genesis of my feelings on this one, readily admitting I don't have personal experience with the Books.

We've been down this road for this topic on the Wasatch, and the naysayers and "chicken littles" on those topics have basically been proven wrong. Don't tell me hunters are having a hard time so the sky is falling. Show me the facts.

 

[notdonhunting]

Broadside
I want to say it is good to have someone debate the issues look at personal points share facts and experiences and not take offense.
I hope the Books can be fixed I have no doubt it is in tough shape.
Happy haunting makes for a happy life.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Vanilla yes it's just projected based on the number they contacted Sorry I should of been more clear on that

so In reality there was 189 LE Big bull Hunters out there and 137 harvested I think there numbers there are pretty close with a mandatory harvest

So when you minus out the LE Big Bull there was 969 projected spike hunters and 245 projected harvesting during this survey

but you can't even get in the ball park when you only contact 25% of the people with spike tags it's just a guessing game you have to at least contact 75% but it has to be mandatory you don't answer you don't get another tag till you do ...

That said if you want to manage for a better bull to cow ratio you have to have these numbers tightened up more so you can do it maybe I'm wrong here by all means I'm not a biologist but it makes sense to me.

 

[3blade]

>
>I am still interested what states
>require a 100 percent report
>from hunters on there success
>or lack of success and
>how it is conducted if
>required.

Nevada does and has done so for as long as i can remember. From the stats in the past, it seems about 1% or less don't respond, probably out of state hunters that aren't coming back any way. Because if you don't answer, no tag for you next year.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

Yes, I think this has been a Good discussion for sure. I hear so many different theories and opinions but I really like to look at reality and see what really is going on. I do base a lot on what I see but am always open to hear sound logic.

 

[slamdunk]

> but you can't even get
>in the ball park when
>you only contact 25% of
>the people with spike tags
>it's just a guessing game
>you have to at least
>contact 75% but it has
>to be mandatory you don't
>answer you don't get another
>tag till you do ...
>
>
I couldn't agree more with this statement!

Reporting back should be mandatory on ALL hunts, LE & GS. And just like the LE's, you either pay a fine if you report late to be able to reapply, or you simply cannot apply.

 

[Vanilla]

I agree 100% with the mandatory reporting, as I've stated above. I wish we'd go to that.

However, no statistician in the world will tell you that you need a 75% sample size for an accurate statistical projection. It's been a LONG time since my stats class in college, but that much I remember.

 

[notdonhunting]

Good luck making it mandatory reporting. The law makers would be the worst at not reporting.

 

[notdonhunting]

Good luck at making it mandatory reporting. The law makers would be the worst at not reporting.

 

[elkfromabove]

>I agree 100% with the mandatory
>reporting, as I've stated above.
>I wish we'd go to
>that.
>
>However, no statistician in the world
>will tell you that you
>need a 75% sample size
>for an accurate statistical projection.
>It's been a LONG time
>since my stats class in
>college, but that much I
>remember.

That is true, but the DWR isn't the only group who needs to be actively involved in wildlife management!

 

[elkassassin]

>>I agree 100% with the mandatory
>>reporting, as I've stated above.
>>I wish we'd go to
>>that.
>>
>>However, no statistician in the world
>>will tell you that you
>>need a 75% sample size
>>for an accurate statistical projection.
>>It's been a LONG time
>>since my stats class in
>>college, but that much I
>>remember.
>
>That is true, but the DWR
>isn't the only group who
>needs to be actively involved
>in wildlife management!

Yes efa!

Who's stepping up & Gonna do something about all these Feral Horses?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Vanilla yeah that makes sense I read up on that you are correct 100% is the key
so what your thought on what's going to happen on the Monroe so they just open up spike hunting on this unit for 2019

2016 there current objective 1000-1004 elk

2012 there was 1400 elk
2013 there was 1300 elk
2014 there was 1250 elk
2015 there was 1000 elk
2016 there was 1000 elk

Average age of harvested bulls

2005-2009 the currant objective was 6.5-7.0
2005 was 7.8
2006 was 8.2
2007 was 7.9
2008 was 7.8
2009 was 7.2 this was the year they started spike hunting
2010 was 6.2
2011 was 6.0
2012 was 6.5
2013 was 6.6
2014 was 7.1 this was the year they stop spike hunting on that unit
2015 was 7.8
2016 was 7.6

Total bull elk harvested
2007 was 85
2008 was 90
2009 was 230 the year they started spike hunting
2010 was 180
2011 was 198
2012 was 202
2013 was 249 spike hunting this year
2014 was 56 no spike hunting all the way threw 2018
2015 was 94
2016 was 66

These number 2014 are really close because it is mandatory

antlerless harvest
2007 was 2
2008 was 10
2009 was 31 they started spike hunting
2010 was 40
2011 was 58
2012 was 65
2013 was 200
2014 was 243 they stop spike hunting
2015 was 396
2016 was 163

now this is projected it's not mandatory survey for antlerless

So if you look at this the way I got it spike hunting is a huge problem a bigger problem than cow hunting I can see it all over the board.

mark my words it's going to dip big time like it did from 2009- 2014 this unit will drop in quality if I'm missing something here by all means tell me...

 

[notdonhunting]

Elkslayer:
I do not see what you are seeing in them #. It looks like to me the age class was going up when they stopped spike hunting infact it jumped significantly the two years following which would have been years the spikes where growing into mature bulls.
The age of bulls on the Monroe dropped in 2009 to 2011 and was on steady rise after that.
A biologist I talked to around 2002 told me he was predicting a drop in age of bulls within a few years on the Monroe he might have been off by a couple of years or he might have been wrong.
He explained to me how he told the DWR and sportsman groups it was going to happen and no one would listen, they all wanted 380 and 390 bulls.
He was making his educated reasoning on the fact if you carryover such a older age class the heard is not health, breading is down and one older age class bull eats as much as two sometimes three of young age class animals.
So when that older age class starts to die off you have fewer young age class so you end up with a age class separation.
I do know if you go to any successful ranch they will tell you the same is true with cattle. You want too have a heard with comparable # of young coming into the heard as old going out of the heard.I know, Hard to do in wildlife.
Now I am not saying this is the case of the Book Cliffs I have no reason too say that I only know what one biologist told me about the Monroe back around 2002.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-18 AT 02:17PM (MST)[p]Those Horses, They are a Problem!!! No Doubt about it!!!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

notdonhunting and they where up to 7.5 average age from 2002 to 2009 and then they started spike hunting and then it went down in the 6 range

Then in 2014 and they stop spike hunting it went up to 7 and has stayed there and look how many more cow tags they have issued from 2012-2016

this might just be just a fluke

I do see what your saying though on getting the old out and bringing in the new my father n law runs a lot of cattle

 

[notdonhunting]

Elkslayer
I just do not read it the same. The low was 2010 and 2011 the spike hunt started in 2009 I do not see how 3 1/2 year old bulls effected the age average. The spike bulls of of 2004 and 2005 would have effected the age average that is if they had hunted spikes in 2004 and 2005. The spikes shot out during 2009 would have effected the last 2 years. The age average is only on LE elk not including spikes. Unless I am reading it wrong.

 

[Vanilla]

Someone is going to have to explain to me how a spike hunt impacted a 7 year old age class in 2 years?

You realize that a spike in most cases is a 1.5 year old elk? 2 year old at best? It's going to take 6+ years to get them into that 7-8 year age class, so anything happening in 2014 on a spike hunt has absolutely nothing to do with 2015 or 2016.

I do not read those numbers even close to telling us anything about the impact of the spike hunt one way or the other. I'm open to hearing how that worked, and will let anyone that wants explain it better. I'll keep an open mind on what I'm potentially missing.

 

[elkassassin]

>Someone is going to have to
>explain to me how a
>spike hunt impacted a 7
>year old age class in
>2 years?
>
>You realize that a spike in
>most cases is a 1.5
>year old elk? 2 year
>old at best? It's going
>to take 6+ years to
>get them into that 7-8
>year age class, so anything
>happening in 2014 on a
>spike hunt has absolutely nothing
>to do with 2015 or
>2016.
>
>I do not read those numbers
>even close to telling us
>anything about the impact of
>the spike hunt one way
>or the other. I'm open
>to hearing how that worked,
>and will let anyone that
>wants explain it better. I'll
>keep an open mind on
>what I'm potentially missing.

Hey Niller!

It Ain't 'JUST' the Spike Hunts!

But the Spike Hunt is a Big Part of the Problem!

Let's Say Niller got in to Ranching!

And I Don't care what Animal it is that He's trying to Build a Herd with!

Niller Gets His Herd Started!

It's a Breed that Brings Top Dollar for the Mature Male Species!

It Takes Several Years for Niller to get things set up within the Herd the Way He Likes/Wants it!

He Does Real Well by selling the Mature Animals for several years!

One Day Niller realizes He's got a Few More than He can Handle with what Ground He has to Run them on!

The Mature Animals Bring Top Dollar!

But He's got enough of them Younger Animals Now He can Sell them for a Fraction of the Price & Still make some Perty Good Money!

Niller Goes on a Female Slaughtering Rampage for a few years!

Then Niller realizes He Shot too many Females!

(((Female to Male Ratio is F'D Up Now!)))

So Niller says:

This won't Be hard to get back in balance and starts Slaughtering the Young Males for a few years!

Then after a few years of this Management!

Niller looks out the Window in to His Field that once Flourished with all age classes!

And there Ain't SQUAT left!

Except one 2 year old Male that's trying to Breed His Mother!

He Wiped the Whole Herd out with His Own Actions!

And Now Niller just can't Figure out what Happened to the Herd?

(((I'm just using You/Niller as an Example,So Don't get mad!)))

So the people Niller was Selling the Animals to still want to buy the same number of Animals as in previous years but they ain't there to Sell anymore!

So?

Does Niller do what the DWR does And Keep Selling What He Doesn't Have or WTH?





















I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Vanilla]

But what if I look out in my field and it's still full of these mythical creatures? And really the only thing I'm missing is the overabundance of those biggest, most expensive animals that couldn't sustain itself anyway? There is still a decent number around, and they make me some cash, but there aren't quite as many as I used to have because I sold too many of them off at a special auction each year that only the rich and famous were allowed to attend?

But I still have a ton of slightly less old and I'm still a billionaire because of them.

What if that is what I see when I look out there? Should I quit selling to everyone else to appease the few, and make just a little more money than the billions I already have?

Asking for a friend.

 

[notdonhunting]

I will play this game Elkassassin
Elkassassin has a ranch in Nevada and he has two Bunnies prime age and he has a lot of costumers for his two Bunnies and then he has a lot of young Bunnies and the old Bunnies won't let the young Bunnies have any of the costumers so then the young Bunnies go to another ranch and the old Bunnies are no good anymore so now Elkassassin has no more costumers unless he kills the young Bunnies on the other ranch. So his old Bunnies are the only Bunnies left.
Maybe wrong kind of ranch.

 

[justr_86]

All the spikes aren't being killed... the cow hunt is overboard and needs to be cut way way back. I still don't see how the spike hunt effects the overall herd?

 

[Vanilla]

>All the spikes aren't being killed...
>the cow hunt is overboard
>and needs to be cut
>way way back. I still
>don't see how the spike
>hunt effects the overall herd?

Spike hunts don't impact the herd one bit, because spikes don't have babies. Herd health has nothing to do with spikes, and little to do with bulls in general. It doesn't take many bulls to breed the cows.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-18 AT 09:25AM (MST)[p]Vanilla I open my mouth and inserted my foot I understand what you are saying on this it needs to be a 6 to a 7 year trend in order to see anything. my bad

so what is the bull to cow ratio that are they looking for in are state what would roughly be an average

 

[elkfromabove]

>>All the spikes aren't being killed...
>>the cow hunt is overboard
>>and needs to be cut
>>way way back. I still
>>don't see how the spike
>>hunt effects the overall herd?
>
>Spike hunts don't impact the herd
>one bit, because spikes don't
>have babies. Herd health has
>nothing to do with spikes,
>and little to do with
>bulls in general. It doesn't
>take many bulls to breed
>the cows.

I beg to differ on your statement that "spike hunts don't impact the herd one bit". I think they do, but in a positive way! They remove SOME of the competition for habitat/forage the pregnant cows need to give birth, nurse and protect the calves. Biologically, spikes are a liability to the growth of the herd. It isn't until they start breeding that they become a biological asset and, even then, only for the short time of the rut.

Meanwhile, they remain a financial asset, but ONLY IF THEY ARE HUNTED. They are like live Christmas trees left on the lot all year long. They may have value as trees during the Christmas season, but for most of the year they only have value when you kill them and cut them up for firewood.

No, you don't kill all of them 'cause you need SOME of them to grow up and breed and to become trophies, but you don't need ALL of them to grow up and breed and to become trophies.

 

[Vanilla]

Elkslayer,

No biggie. We?re all here to share and also learn. Too often we (me included) dog our heels in come hell or high water, and we don't get anywhere. And no idea the answer to your specific question, but you may find some answers in the statewide elk plan. https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/elk_plan.pdf

EFA- I stand corrected. You nailed the spike impact perfectly, in my opinion. I was only looking at it one way, you looked st the whole picture. Well said.

 

[elkassassin]

>But what if I look out
>in my field and it's
>still full of these mythical
>creatures? And really the only
>thing I'm missing is the
>overabundance of those biggest, most
>expensive animals that couldn't sustain
>itself anyway? There is still
>a decent number around, and
>they make me some cash,
>but there aren't quite as
>many as I used to
>have because I sold too
>many of them off at
>a special auction each year
>that only the rich and
>famous were allowed to attend?
>
>
>But I still have a ton
>of slightly less old and
>I'm still a billionaire because
>of them.
>
>What if that is what I
>see when I look out
>there? Should I quit selling
>to everyone else to appease
>the few, and make just
>a little more money than
>the billions I already have?
>
>
>Asking for a friend.

Hey Niller!

Lot's of 'If's"!

Lot's of 'Buts'!

Lot's of 'What If's'!

Again!

You don't See what's Missing!

It Ain't just the Big Creatures Missing!

Keep Selling Baby!

Keep Selling!

That'll Fix everything!

Then One Day You Wake Up & You Ain't Got JACK F'N SQUAT!







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18 AT 09:36AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18 AT 09:29?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18 AT 09:28?AM (MST)

Thanks Vanilla

So I'm going to try and show how spike hunting hurts are bull herd not are cow herds
This is what I see when you run spike hunting for 3 years

So the DWR want's to see a 35 bull to 100 cow ratio

I'm only going to use 100 head of cows to make it easy

so out of that 100 head only 55 will have calves that survive to the next season and that's high because actually DWR have it at 40's

So I've talk to 2 different cattle people on was my father n law and I found out threw some of the different web sights that cow's produce more cows than bull calves so I'm going to make this easy

so I'm going to say out of 55 calves we have 25 bull calves

start of 2018

we have 35 big bulls already from last season
we have 25 spikes coming into the herd from last season
total 60 bulls on the unit now

now 10 big bulls got harvested
now 19 spikes got harvested
total 31 bulls left over after the hunts are all over

start of 2019

we have 31 big bulls from last season
we have 25 spikes coming up from last season
total 56 bulls leftover

now 12 big bulls got harvested
now 20 spikes got harvested
total 24 bulls left on a unit after all the hunts

start of 2020

we have 24 big bulls from last season
we have 25 spike coming up from last season
total 49 big bulls

now 8 big bulls harvested
now 20 spikes got harvested
total 21 big bulls left over after all the hunts



Elk quality in Utah is good we all know that but where going to loose out on are quantity and not maintain are bull to cow ratio like it should be by hunting spikes without a mandatory harvest survey and not managing it properly can hurt are hunting maybe not are herds but are bulls I think by tightening up this will give us more big bull tags available in the next 5 to 6 years or even sooner

And yes you will see spikes running around but that doesn't mean there is enough to get are quantity back into are herds to meet the bull to cow ratio

That's why it should be mandatory harvest survey to tightened up the bull to cow ratio I hope this makes sense it does to me but that doesn't mean anything lol

If I'm wrong here by all means tell me

 

[elkassassin]

Our LE Elk Units took quite a few years to make them Quality Producing Units!

Why would you want to Destroy them?

It'd take several Years to Bring the Book Cliffs Back & The Management that it would take wouldn't be Liked or Welcome by the Opportunists!

Tough Titty!

Let's Hunt em Non-Stop & Over Lapped starting Mid August through January and sometimes in to February with the Cow Slaughters!

Ya!

That'll Help a Herd!

I'll Place a Wager with anybody that wants to make the Bet that there won't be change enough made with Book Cliffs Management to Help Improve it in the near future!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[ridgetops]

>Our LE Elk Units took quite
> a few years to
>make them Quality Producing Units!
>
>
>Why would you want to Destroy
>them?
>

Why?
Maybe most people don't want to wait 20+ years to draw a tag.
Maybe most people don't care if they kill a record book bull or even a 350"+ bull for that matter.
Most people just want to kill a 300" class bull a couple times in their lifetime.

 

[ridgetops]

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18
>AT 09:36?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18
>AT 09:29?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18
>AT 09:28?AM (MST)
>
>Thanks Vanilla
>
>So I'm going to try and
>show how spike hunting hurts
>are bull herd not are
>cow herds
>This is what I see when
>you run spike hunting for
>3 years
>
>So the DWR want's to see
>a 35 bull to 100
>cow ratio
>
>I'm only going to use 100
>head of cows to make
>it easy
>
>so out of that 100 head
>only 55 will have calves
>that survive to the next
>season and that's high because
>actually DWR have it at
>40's
>
>So I've talk to 2 different
>cattle people on was my
>father n law and I
>found out threw some of
>the different web sights that
>cow's produce more cows than
>bull calves so I'm going
>to make this easy
>
>so I'm going to say out
>of 55 calves we have
>25 bull calves
>
>start of 2018
>
>we have 35 big bulls already
>from last season
>we have 25 spikes coming into
>the herd from last season
>
> total 60 bulls on
>the unit now
>
> now 10
>big bulls got harvested
> now 19
>spikes got harvested
> total 31 bulls left
>over after the hunts are
>all over
>
>start of 2019
>
>we have 31 big bulls from
>last season
>we have 25 spikes coming up
>from last season
> total 56 bulls leftover
>
>
> now 12
>big bulls got harvested
> now 20
>spikes got harvested
> total 24 bulls left
>on a unit after all
>the hunts
>
>start of 2020
>
>we have 24 big bulls from
>last season
>we have 25 spike coming up
>from last season
> total 49 big bulls
>
>
> now
>8 big bulls harvested
> now 20
>spikes got harvested
> total 21 big bulls
>left over after all the
>hunts
>
>
>
>Elk quality in Utah is good
>we all know that but
>where going to loose out
>on are quantity and not
>maintain are bull to cow
>ratio like it should be
>by hunting spikes without a
>mandatory harvest survey and not
>managing it properly can hurt
>are hunting maybe not are
>herds but are bulls I
>think by tightening up this
>will give us more big
>bull tags available in the
>next 5 to 6 years
>or even sooner
>
>And yes you will see spikes
>running around but that doesn't
>mean there is enough to
>get are quantity back into
>are herds to meet the
>bull to cow ratio
>
>That's why it should be mandatory
>harvest survey to tightened up
>the bull to cow ratio
>I hope this makes sense
>it does to me but
>that doesn't mean anything lol
>
>
>If I'm wrong here by all
>means tell me

Elkslayer,
I think you forgot to include all the raghorns from year to year until they become a big bull.
Most bulls from the age of 2 through 5 are usually passed on by most LE hunters until they become a big bull.









see my latest wildlife pictures on I.G.
Follow me @ antler_chaser_

 

[elkassassin]

>>Our LE Elk Units took quite
>> a few years to
>>make them Quality Producing Units!
>>
>>
>>Why would you want to Destroy
>>them?
>>
>
>Why?
>Maybe most people don't want to
>wait 20+ years to draw
>a tag.
>Maybe most people don't care if
>they kill a record book
>bull or even a 350"+
>bull for that matter.
>Most people just want to kill
>a 300" class bull a
>couple times in their lifetime.
>


Well!

Then Maybe they Should Stick to Hunting General F'N Elk Units where Killing a 300" Bull ain't that F'N Hard to do & You can Hunt with Every-F'N-body else every year!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[elkassassin]

>>LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18
>>AT 09:36?AM (MST)
>>
>>LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18
>>AT 09:29?AM (MST)
>>
>>LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18
>>AT 09:28?AM (MST)
>>
>>Thanks Vanilla
>>
>>So I'm going to try and
>>show how spike hunting hurts
>>are bull herd not are
>>cow herds
>>This is what I see when
>>you run spike hunting for
>>3 years
>>
>>So the DWR want's to see
>>a 35 bull to 100
>>cow ratio
>>
>>I'm only going to use 100
>>head of cows to make
>>it easy
>>
>>so out of that 100 head
>>only 55 will have calves
>>that survive to the next
>>season and that's high because
>>actually DWR have it at
>>40's
>>
>>So I've talk to 2 different
>>cattle people on was my
>>father n law and I
>>found out threw some of
>>the different web sights that
>>cow's produce more cows than
>>bull calves so I'm going
>>to make this easy
>>
>>so I'm going to say out
>>of 55 calves we have
>>25 bull calves
>>
>>start of 2018
>>
>>we have 35 big bulls already
>>from last season
>>we have 25 spikes coming into
>>the herd from last season
>>
>> total 60 bulls on
>>the unit now
>>
>> now 10
>>big bulls got harvested
>> now 19
>>spikes got harvested
>> total 31 bulls left
>>over after the hunts are
>>all over
>>
>>start of 2019
>>
>>we have 31 big bulls from
>>last season
>>we have 25 spikes coming up
>>from last season
>> total 56 bulls leftover
>>
>>
>> now 12
>>big bulls got harvested
>> now 20
>>spikes got harvested
>> total 24 bulls left
>>on a unit after all
>>the hunts
>>
>>start of 2020
>>
>>we have 24 big bulls from
>>last season
>>we have 25 spike coming up
>>from last season
>> total 49 big bulls
>>
>>
>> now
>>8 big bulls harvested
>> now 20
>>spikes got harvested
>> total 21 big bulls
>>left over after all the
>>hunts
>>
>>
>>
>>Elk quality in Utah is good
>>we all know that but
>>where going to loose out
>>on are quantity and not
>>maintain are bull to cow
>>ratio like it should be
>>by hunting spikes without a
>>mandatory harvest survey and not
>>managing it properly can hurt
>>are hunting maybe not are
>>herds but are bulls I
>>think by tightening up this
>>will give us more big
>>bull tags available in the
>>next 5 to 6 years
>>or even sooner
>>
>>And yes you will see spikes
>>running around but that doesn't
>>mean there is enough to
>>get are quantity back into
>>are herds to meet the
>>bull to cow ratio
>>
>>That's why it should be mandatory
>>harvest survey to tightened up
>>the bull to cow ratio
>>I hope this makes sense
>>it does to me but
>>that doesn't mean anything lol
>>
>>
>>If I'm wrong here by all
>>means tell me
>
>Elkslayer,
>I think you forgot to include
>all the raghorns from year
>to year until they become
>a big bull.
>Most bulls from the age of
>2 through 5 are usually
>passed on by most LE
>hunters until they become a
>big bull.


And Right there's where you Don't see the Light!

When 90% of them are Being Slaughtered as a Spike it kinda Hurts the Raghorn/Future Big Bull population!

GEEZUS!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>see my latest wildlife pictures on
>I.G.
> Follow me @ antler_chaser_











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Shadow]

Elkassassin says "Hunting General F'N Elk Units where Killing a 300" Bull ain't that F'N Hard to do"....Exaggerate much?

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Wait a minute how would I destroy it by doing it this way answer me that I'm trying to help

 

[Elkslayer2015]

no that's how they get there 35 bull to 100 cow ratio it's not all mature big bulls or we would have to many bulls the raghorns still breed the genes

 

[Elkslayer2015]

No I'm not saying start over I was just using that as an example we leave are herds the way that they are I'm trying to show how spike hunting is hurting are bull herds without managing them we are killing off are future bulls and if we kill off to many spikes we can't keep are bull to cow ratio where it needs to be
for example

If we have 350 total bulls on a unit

then we have 450 spikes that same year

we kill 175 big bulls

we kill 300 spikes

only leaves 150 spikes left over for next year

so now we are under objective by 25 bulls because we shot more of are future bulls so the next year will only have 325 going into the next year
we started with 350


does this make sense sorry I'm bad at this

 

[notdonhunting]

Elkslayer
I know you are using numbers that make it easier to show the progression of kill rate.
The problem with your fictacious theory is if you only had 35 mature bulls on a unit the DWR would not give enough permits to kill 10 mature bulls. It would be more like 3 permits and 3 killed mature bulls.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18 AT 04:30PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18 AT 04:29?PM (MST)

It was an example I could do it on the book cliffs no problem with the total numbers
We have no clue on how many spikes get killed and if they only have 100 spikes going into next year and we harvested 150 big bulls that year It could be a big problem correct

 

[Vanilla]

Was it just claimed above that we are killing 90% of the bulls when they are spikes?

Did I read that wrong? Did I misinterpret something?

Because I just saw someone yelling about killing 90% when they are spikes. Please tell me nobody truly believes this? Please, please, please tell me these fake scenarios are not how we make wildlife decisions in our state. Please?

 

[elkassassin]

>Was it just claimed above that
>we are killing 90% of
>the bulls when they are
>spikes?
>
>Did I read that wrong? Did
>I misinterpret something?
>
>Because I just saw someone yelling
>about killing 90% when they
>are spikes. Please tell me
>nobody truly believes this? Please,
>please, please tell me these
>fake scenarios are not how
>we make wildlife decisions in
>our state. Please?

Hey Niller!

Gonna Clue you in on something!

You got any Friends that own a Chopper that could Fly us around the Book Cliffs for a couple days?

I Don't know the Exact Percentage of Spikes that were Shot!

But it's a Way Higher number than what you are Thinking!

I'd Love to Fly it!

I'd Love to Show you what's left out there!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Vanilla I was just trying to show a scenario if we killed to many spikes
my post that I first wrote was an EXAMPLE I know it shows 90% kill harvest but that wasn't my intention and people took it the wrong way I was just trying to show if we kill to many spikes and only leave less spike than what we harvested on are big bulls are bull to cow ratio it would be lower and if we did this every year it would kill a unit
that's why a mandatory harvest needs to happen on spike hunting because nobody knows what it really is

sorry I knew it was going to be confusing.

 

[elkassassin]

I'd Like to SPLAIN Some Simple Arithmetic!

If the Young Bull doesn't Make it Past 1.3 Years Old!

And if the Young Bull Doesn't Make it past 2.3 Years Old!

And if the Young Bull Doesn't Make it past 3.3 Years Old!

And if the Young Bull Doesn't Make it past 4.3 Years Old!

And if the Young Bull Doesn't Make it past 5.3 Years Old!

And if the Young Bull Doesn't Make it past 6.3 Years Old!

And if the Young Bull Doesn't Make it past 7.3 Years Old!

There's No Chance for Future Big Bulls!

So Keep Shooting Too Many Spikes!

Keep Shooting Too many Cows!

Keep Shooting too Many Raghorns!

Keep Shooting Too Many Big Bulls!

If it looks to be the Right F'N Color & You see Movement just Shoot it!

Now What'Ya got Left?










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[justr_86]

First person that goes to the bookcliffs and takes a picture of a spike bull gets $10, starting right now lol.

We aren't killing 90% of the spikes out there... from personal experience you can go all over the bookcliffs some days and swear the isn't an elk anywhere around. Then other times you go and there's literally elk everywhere! Can't remember the exact year but a couple years ago (under 4 years) we went for a ride and saw around 400 head from the Indian boundary up willow creek to the top of bull canyon, cows spikes rags and a few 330 plus bulls. There were also a few hundred head across winter ridge to the top and a few bunches here and there across the top until we got to pr spring that draw was absolutely loaded with too many elk to count and we didn't see them all. Went across Indian ridge and saw elk in almost every park across there through the draw and across to Pete's canyon was full of bulls and cooper canyon. Big park had about 60 head of cows and bulls standing in the middle of it and down longs draw had about 30 head in it. Kings well and 2 waters had about 30 head across it and another small herd at the top of buck canyon. That was an awesome day! With all the deer mixed in and 2 coyotes that didn't make it. I've tried many times since and haven't seen even a fraction of what we did that day.

 

[elkassassin]

>First person that goes to the
>bookcliffs and takes a picture
>of a spike bull gets
>$10, starting right now lol.
>
>
>We aren't killing 90% of the
>spikes out there... from personal
>experience you can go all
>over the bookcliffs some days
>and swear the isn't an
>elk anywhere around. Then other
>times you go and there's
>literally elk everywhere! Can't remember
>the exact year but a
>couple years ago (under 4
>years) we went for a
>ride and saw around 400
>head from the Indian boundary
>up willow creek to the
>top of bull canyon, cows
>spikes rags and a few
>330 plus bulls. There were
>also a few hundred head
>across winter ridge to the
>top and a few bunches
>here and there across the
>top until we got to
>pr spring that draw was
>absolutely loaded with too many
>elk to count and we
>didn't see them all. Went
>across Indian ridge and saw
>elk in almost every park
>across there through the draw
>and across to Pete's canyon
>was full of bulls and
>cooper canyon. Big park had
>about 60 head of cows
>and bulls standing in the
>middle of it and down
>longs draw had about 30
>head in it. Kings well
>and 2 waters had about
>30 head across it and
>another small herd at the
>top of buck canyon. That
>was an awesome day! With
>all the deer mixed in
>and 2 coyotes that didn't
>make it. I've tried many
>times since and haven't seen
>even a fraction of what
>we did that day.
>
>

>

You Need to take a FRESH Ride justr!

I Don't care what Day or How Many Days!

Show Me the Gold!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[justr_86]

So what I suggested is wrong how? Cut cow tags and shrink sub units to target specific problem animals for depredation. Cut 10% big bull tags to get the age class back up. 3-5 years it will be back.

The books have winter range from monument ridge to the white river without causing farming issues.

Leave the spike hunt for opportunity and do a mandatory reporting to get more clear data.

Id like to see them change how they do their counts to be more accurate. No cow hunts until the herd is at or damn near objective!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18 AT 07:59PM (MST)[p]Okay justr 86 what was the total # of spikes or in the ball park that you seen that's all I care about I don't care how many other bulls you seen just spikes

 

[elkassassin]

>So what I suggested is wrong
>how? Cut cow tags and
>shrink sub units to target
>specific problem animals for depredation.
>Cut 10% big bull tags
>to get the age class
>back up. 3-5 years it
>will be back.
>
>The books have winter range from
>monument ridge to the white
>river without causing farming issues.
>
>
>Leave the spike hunt for opportunity
>and do a mandatory reporting
>to get more clear data.
>
>
>Id like to see them change
>how they do their counts
>to be more accurate. No
>cow hunts until the herd
>is at or damn near
>objective!
>
>

>

I Agree!

I Screamed for Years when they started the Cow Slaughters in LE Units!

Anybody Remember that?

Then what do they do?

Start doing the F'N Spike Slaughters in LE Units!

JFP!

I Don't see How making Units any Smaller is gonna Help with the Way things are run!

Remember when we went to 30+ Deer Units & Our Deer Herd was gonna be like Colorado's Deer Herd?

That Sshhitt Ain't happened with current & Past Management now has it?

With Previous Management there'd be No F'N Need for 3-5 years wasted to bring the Herd back!

Maybe We should have a FREE-FOR-ALL like they did several years ago on the Deer Hunt but this Time have it for both Deer & Elk & Just Finish Shootin the Book Cliffs Clear out!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[notdonhunting]

In post #4 elkassassin
Says no spike hunting in any LE Bull elk unit.
It is stated in several other posts how spike hunting has been bad for mature bull elk on units throughout the state.
Elkslayer tried pointing out with # that it was bad for the Monroe.
I have no idea if the Book Cliffs are in bad shape or not I do not go there and if they are in bad shape i personally believe there is a reason with the habitat that caused the problem not spike hunting.
Again i will ask if spike hunting was so bad and the Manti, Fish Lake and the Wasatch which all have been shooting spikes for almost 30 years why has all three units flourished.
If you guys say the Books are hurting I believe you but keep it at that. Because there is NO EVIDENCE of spike hunting is hurting any unit in fact the # from the Monroe proves the opposite.
There is guys that want to cut deer tags to the point you would only draw 1 in every 6 or 7 years and cut LE elk tags and it already takes more than 15 years to draw a LE elk tag on some of the easier drawing hunts and 20 years on the harder hunts, if we cut permits it would go to maybe 20 years and 25 years. Now take away spike hunting and at best a new young hunter is looking at hunting deer once before they graduate and they could have grand kids before they ever hunt elk.
I am sorry I like to hunt as much as anyone but I would be done hunting under such circumstance and there would be no new hunters replacing the ones that leave hunting.

 

[elkassassin]

>In post #4 elkassassin
>Says no spike hunting in any
>LE Bull elk unit.
>It is stated in several other
>posts how spike hunting has
>been bad for mature bull
>elk on units throughout the
>state.
>Elkslayer tried pointing out with #
>that it was bad for
>the Monroe.
>I have no idea if the
>Book Cliffs are in bad
>shape or not I do
>not go there and if
>they are in bad shape
>i personally believe there is
>a reason with the habitat
>that caused the problem not
>spike hunting.
>Again i will ask if spike
>hunting was so bad and
>the Manti, Fish Lake and
>the Wasatch which all have
>been shooting spikes for almost
>30 years why has all
>three units flourished.
>If you guys say the Books
>are hurting I believe you
>but keep it at that.
>Because there is NO EVIDENCE
>of spike hunting is hurting
>any unit in fact the
># from the Monroe proves
>the opposite.
>There is guys that want to
>cut deer tags to the
>point you would only draw
>1 in every 6 or
>7 years and cut LE
>elk tags and it already
>takes more than 15 years
>to draw a LE elk
>tag on some of the
>easier drawing hunts and 20
>years on the harder hunts,
>if we cut permits it
>would go to maybe 20
>years and 25 years. Now
>take away spike hunting and
>at best a new young
>hunter is looking at hunting
>deer once before they graduate
>and they could have grand
>kids before they ever hunt
>elk.
>I am sorry I like to
>hunt as much as anyone
>but I would be done
>hunting under such circumstance and
>there would be no new
>hunters replacing the ones that
>leave hunting.


Yes We had a Drought!

That Ain't what F'D the Book Cliffs up in one year!

Do You get that part?








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Vanilla]

Bessy, you don't know what percentage of spikes I think are killed because I've never said what I think. So you have no clue if it's higher or lower than I think.

I'll tell you not what I think, but what I KNOW!!!! It ain?t anywhere close to 90% of the spikes killed like you said above. Not anywhere even close to that number. That's flat crazy talk.

I'd fly the unit with you, but my plane is in the shop. Rain check?

 

[elkassassin]

>Bessy, you don't know what percentage
>of spikes I think are
>killed because I've never said
>what I think. So you
>have no clue if it's
>higher or lower than I
>think.
>
>I'll tell you not what I
>think, but what I KNOW!!!!
>It ain?t anywhere close to
>90% of the spikes killed
>like you said above. Not
>anywhere even close to that
>number. That's flat crazy talk.
>
>
>I'd fly the unit with you,
>but my plane is in
>the shop. Rain check?


I'd like to Fly it within the near Future!

While we have some Snow on the Ground!

I Was Hoping You had a Chopper!

I'd take the Stick & Show You how to move them out of the Trees where we could get a good look at them!

I Don't know the exact percentage Niller!

But I do know they've shot them out perty Damn good!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller!

Ya I Said 90%!

I Don't know how High the Number is!

But it's Higher than what you Think it is as Well!

I'd like to Fly the Unit for a Week Straight!

You Don't & Won't see em all in a Day!

After a Week you get a Perty Good Idea!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[justr_86]

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-18
>AT 07:59?PM (MST)
>
>Okay justr 86 what was the
>total # of spikes or
>in the ball park that
>you seen that's all I
>care about I don't care
>how many other bulls you
>seen just spikes


At the time I wasn't trying to count spikes but I remember the being quite a few and some really funny funky looking spikes. It was mid November and they were with the cows and a couple of the bachelor groups had spikes with them, and a couple groups of 3-5 spike's running together.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

OK just 86 if you had to guess how many Spike?s do you think are still running around after all the hunts are done and over with

 

[Vanilla]

"OK just 86 if you had to guess how many Spike?s do you think are still running around after all the hunts are done and over with" -elkslayer

How does one even begin to make this guess?

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Exactly it's just a guess because there are spike being seen and big bulls being seen and rag horns it's not a spike problem but it can be a problem

If there are only 550 spikes born in on year which I bet I'm pretty dam close to that number it could be high one year but not by much it definitely could be lower
We are not bringing enough bulls back into the herds to account for are big bulls taken out of the herds


The reservation has 50 big bull tags which I know they have told me and if they harvest 40 which I bet they do or more
We harvest 145 big bulls
Landowner harvest 10
That's 195 big bulls killed if there is not 195 spikes leftover then are unit looses out and it will catch up to us in 5 to 10 years which that's what is going on out there....

 

[justr_86]

>"OK just 86 if you had
>to guess how many Spike?s
>do you think are still
>running around after all the
>hunts are done and over
>with" -elkslayer
>
>How does one even begin to
>make this guess?


Lol well if I did guess it would only be a guess... I know we aren't killing all of the spikes. There's usually at least 1-3 with each group of cows after the spike hunt is over with.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Well that's the million dollar question I'm seeing spike as well but the real question is there enough leftover to replace the big bulls that got harvested that year for later down the road

 

[justr_86]

After they branch they're off limits until someone with a big bull tag decides to drop the hammer on it. Biologically speaking the bulls are worthless 11 months out of the year. 1 bull is capable and happy to breed up to about 50 cows. So yes I think so. The cow tags are the cause for the herd numbers drop, not the spike hunt. The spike hunt also helps take care of extra bulls so the herd bulls aren't fighting and running to exhaustion and killing themselves. Also fighting less so they aren't breaking as many points off.

If they cut cow tags, without even cutting big bull tags the herd will recover pretty fast. More elk, healthy herd and healthy herds make big bulls. Everybody is happy except the cattleman, they have the biggest say in herd objectives.

 

[Vanilla]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-18 AT 01:20PM (MST)[p]elkslayer, sorry, but again your math and analogy are WAAAAY off.

"Big" bulls don't only come out of one age class. So the big bulls that are being hunted to fill those 195 bulls, if we just use that number, are not only being replaced by this year's spikes. Those big bulls may have come from 6 different age classes of elk. One of those bulls could be anywhere from 5-10 years old pretty easily, and a chance of a little younger or a little older. So not only are we replacing those 195 bulls with bulls from this year's spikes, but from last years, and the year before, and the year before that too, along with all the following years as well.

You're trying to make this so black and white, when it is neither.

I'll reiterate, spike hunts are not your problem.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-18 AT 01:49PM (MST)[p]>Well that's the million dollar question
>I'm seeing spike as well
>but the real question is
>there enough leftover to replace
>the big bulls that got
>harvested that year for later
>down the road

I don't think there's much to worry about regarding the replacement of the 195 big bulls that got harvested this year.

At the end of 2016 there were a total of 5,600 elk per the model. If the bull to cow ratio was 35:100 (give or take 10 bulls), then that means that between 3,864 and 4,480 cows were bred. And if only 50% of them had calves that survived the first year, that means there were 1,932 to 2,240 yearlings this past hunting season. And of those yearlings, there were 966 to 1,120 spikes, which means that we would have to have killed between 771 to 925 spikes this season before it would become an issue next year.

If that info is too complicated or iffy for you, then just consider this. In 2003 we had 3,560 elk on the Book Cliffs and, with a couple of rises and dips in the population, we now have 6,300. (Since 2013 at 4,000 it's been quite a jump each year.) Has this year been another dip? We don't yet know, but if it is, you can bet that the spike hunt wasn't responsible.

And, as for the drought, it isn't just a one year drought! It's been going on for seven years and the habitat (forage, soil, water table, bacteria, air) has been taking a beating, not just the game animals. At some point, the impact has to show, even to the less informed. Maybe that's what's happening now.

 

[BillyBoB]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-18 AT 02:03PM (MST)[p]A lot of guessing or unanswered questions....

None of us know! Including the biologist or DWR. Why?
Because there is no mandatory survey for spike or antlerless. Add the fact the state doesn't fly it yearly either.

There is no good excuse to not have mandatory surveys.
I think that would be a start.

If you want to hunt again in the future, better get that survey done
That's how it should be!

I return every survey that I have an chance to fill out.









"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

 

[justr_86]

The drought emergency tags aren't helping anything either. I think they're unnecessary given the amount of winter range the bookcliffs offers. If there is a spot getting hit too hard then put out half as many tags as necessary in a very specific area and the pressure will move them hopefully to a less impacted area. But that would be too hands on.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem being on a call list for such instances to possibly go fill a tag on a problem bunch of animals. Maybe I'll get a cow tag maybe I won't. Either way it's not a unnecessary hunt chasing animals that aren't causing problems.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

We have 5600 hundred total cows calves and bulls not just bulls and cows

 

[justr_86]

Not enough.

 

[fullthrottle]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-18 AT 04:02PM (MST)[p]Hard to believe spike hunts are the problem with the slide in big bull quality when you think back years ago when they implemented the spike only program. Some of the most heavily hunted areas in the state like fishlake, manti, strawberry the big bull numbers exploded. Even a more recent example, Boulder mountain went from any bull to spike only and look what that mountain has produced the last several years. So I'm not buying the spike hunt is our problem. I would think the increase in cow tags and anybull tags in some areas would have a more direct impact on the quality and quantity of big bulls available.
You know another observation that has seemed to come into play the last 5-10 years is the harvesting of elk calves. I see more and more guys harvesting calf?s on these late season cow hunts more than ever. It seemed like 10 years ago if you shot a calf you were a scumbag for killing a baby, but now more guys are harvesting them because they are an easy out and the meat is usually very good. Myself, I think that's pretty weak. If you have an antlerless tag shoot a damn cow. Am I crazy to think the up and comers should be left to fight another day, and potentially become the herd of the future?
I don't know that's just my opinion, but like I said I don't believe the spike hunts are the issue. That being said, in areas like the books, San Juan, Southwest desert, Monroe, etc that haven't always had a spike hunt I'm sure you do see a difference in the bull herd make-up. Although I believe those areas should have had spike hunt the entire time. Of course those with a bunch of points would disagree. But units change, they always have and always will. Also I don't believe just because someone has accumulated a bunch of points over the years that they should feel entitled to a giant 380 type bull. You should have used those points on another hunt years ago when you were young enough to enjoy it, and not an old washed up SOB. I've always said I would take a 320? bull in the Unitas over a 380? on the San Juan any day! Anyways, the best case scenario in my opinion after the DWR gets done with their cow elk destruction and knocks the mature bull numbers down to nothing. Just go to a 4 point or better hunt with a cap statewide and be done with it. Get rid of the ability to hunt all the seasons BS, get rid of the frickin high powered rifle hunt during the peak of the rut, and let's go hunt some branched antlered bulls every couple years instead of once or twice in a lifetime. Honestly doesn't that sound better than hunting one time every 20 or so years. Of course this would wreck some of the local outfitters, screw SFW out of a bunch of cash that they are surely entitled to from the expo tags, and screw the large CWMU?s that mooch off the public land bulls that gravitate to their sanctuary then make bank selling the landowner tags and then b!tch about the elk because they are eating all the feed that their cows, and sheep are entitled to. But hey for the average guy it might work out.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

So I'm wrong for thinking the way I am

so if I do it this way

we have 1500 bulls on the books

we kill 200 big bulls

we have 500 spikes

we kill 350 spikes

we have 150 bulls left over for next year where loosing 50 bulls every year so are bull to cow ratio would be off correct

so this happens every year where not going to have a problem in the next ten years with are bulls

this is just for an example

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-18 AT 04:52PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-18 AT 04:45?PM (MST)

So I'm wrong for thinking the way I am

so if I do it this way

we have 1500 bulls on the books

we kill 200 big bulls

we have 500 spikes

we kill 350 spikes

we have 150 spike bulls left over for next year where loosing 50 bulls every year so are bull to cow ratio would be off correct

so this happens every year for the next ten years with are bulls we will not have a problem

this is just for an example

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-18 AT 05:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-18 AT 05:18?PM (MST)

>We have 5600 hundred total cows
>calves and bulls not just
>bulls and cows

Touche on the calves! I never considered them separately as being included in the number. So that would be:

Bull to cow ratio:
25/100 to 45/100 =
3294 to 3094 cows
1647 to 1547 calves
(823 to 773 bull calves)
659 to 959 bulls

So, we could still kill 578 to 628 spikes before it would be a problem. I doubt we even get close to that.

And, FWIW, the 5,600 figure was the 2016 number, not the current number. Since then, the number has risen to 6,300 in 2017 and who knows what it is now. Like I said, the population has increased dramatically as of late regardless of the spike hunts.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

you right on with what I've been doing but this is the true numbers from the DWR

I'm going to do 2016 because I have the numbers

we have 5600 elk
DWR had it 27 bulls to 100 cows or that was there numbers

so 5600 divided by 100 is 56

so you take 27 bull cow ratio x56 give you 1512 big bulls

so then you have 4088 cows and calves left over

so then you take 4088 divided by 100 gives you 40.88

so then you take 40.88 x 40 because that is what the DWR has down for 40 calves per 100 cows

so then you have 1635.2 total calves
divide that in half is 817.6 bull calves

I'm taking off 286.16 off because everything I have read is about 30 to 35 % are bulls out of 100 claves you never have more bulls born than cows so now you have 531.44 bulls left over

so we kill 200 big bulls
and we kill 400 spikes we have a problem if this continues to happen over 10 years I'm just pointing this out it could be a problem and people are saying that it can't be a problem

we don't know how many spikes got killed when you only do a 25% survey it could be a lot higher harvest survey then what they figured and that could hurt us I'm not trying to be a pain I'm trying to explain how it can hurt us and yes cows can hurt us big time.

 

[elkassassin]

OK Niller!

When We Go Flying!

I Wanna Fly it every Day for a Week!

Weather Can Play a Factor!

Moon can be a Factor!

Etc!

After a Week We should have a Perty Good Feel for what's left in the Unit!

If We Come up with what the Objectives are suppose to Be for Both Cows & Bulls We Split The Fuel Bill!

If We come up with above what Objectives are suppose to be I Buy All the Fuel!

If We come up with Less than what the Objectives are suppose to be You Buy All the Fuel!

And When I Say Objectives I'm Talking for all Age Class Both Cows & Bulls!

I Don't know How Much more Fair I can be Niller!

I'd Like To Rig a Gun up on Your Plane so We can Shoot Coyotes as Well!

We Might Have To Modify the Belly to get a Gun Set up so We Can Shoot out of your Plane!

You gotta 152 or something Similar that'll Fly fairly slow?












I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[elkassassin]

Check your PM Elkslayer!







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[Vanilla]

Bessy, I got you man! I can put you in this rig and setup I've got. Works great for wolf...I mean, coyote control!

http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2018/83254aaa2c99ddbb44296b0838dc0bb09c9d5.jpeg

 

[elkassassin]

>Bessy, I got you man! I
>can put you in this
>rig and setup I've got.
>Works great for wolf...I mean,
>coyote control!
>
>http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2018/83254aaa2c99ddbb44296b0838dc0bb09c9d5.jpeg


Shouldn't be too Cold this time a year should it?










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[BillyBoB]

Still slaughtering the elk out there.
Even poaching!

https://fox13now.com/2018/12/17/officials-seeking-information-after-elk-found-poached-near-vernal/




"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

 

[elkassassin]

>Still slaughtering the elk out there.
>
>Even poaching!
>
>https://fox13now.com/2018/12/17/officials-seeking-information-after-elk-found-poached-near-vernal/
>
>
>
>
>"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak.
>So
>we must and we will."
>Theadore Roosevelt


Ya!

Seen it many times!

The Cow Killers get perty Wound up & Start shooting in to a Flock of Elk!

Boom!

Nothing Falls!

Boom!

Nothing Falls!

Most of them don't Pick the last Animal at the End of the Herd/or try to stay on the same animal so they know which Elk they're shooting at!

So somebody add this in to the Equation as Well!

Many years ago,and a few years after they started the Cow Slaughters on the South Slope I Was watching a Hunter shooting in to a Herd of Elk!

I Don't know how many He Wounded?

But I Seen 3 Cow Elk Fall!

I Went directly over to Him & Asked Him WTH He thought He was doing?

I Saido You know You've got at least 3 Elk on the Ground?

He Sayson't Worry about it,My Uncle & Nephew Ain't to far away & We've got it covered!

I Kept watching Him,got on His Radio,Called His Relates & they were their Quick!

I Told Him if they were not Tagged & Taken care of Quickly I Was gonna Turn His Dumb Ass In!













I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[justr_86]

Bess if I get a chance I'll load you up in the truck and we'll go for a ride. You can show me some of your honey holes down there!